Controversial UK Sangat Prevents Beadbi At Grays Gurdwara

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwant Singh Ji,

I would like to answer your questions one by one - it might take me some time, but i will do it. Our decisions should be based on GURMAT not on social obligations. I don't like to argue since it's a waste of time.


I am not against community centers but they should not be built on Gurduara Sahib complex. Gurduara Sahib is only for GURMAT PARCHAR - nothing else. Look what is happening in Toronto? Senior Citizens hang around on Gurduara Sahib complex and play playing cards. Othe Galan vi chaldian, Manda vi boleya janda (apne ton reha nahi janda) Some of them even go to their Car to sneak a PEG or too. Same thing used to happen when i used to live in Yuba City - every year at Games (khedaan) used to happen at Gurduara Sahib grounds. But people would get drunk, fights and abuse the facilities. Now there is Yuba City Mela every year in the County playgrounds.


Gurduara Sahib is not a social gathering place and pehrava(dress) should be as simple as possible. Our main aim should be to listen to GURBANI and to live our life based on those teachings. Kala Matha Tekanna or Showoff of designer suits is a bhulekha, will not achieve anything !


I have seen basketball courts @ Gurduara Sahib in Yuba City infact at one time i used to believe in that NOT anymore An incident happened in Houston Texas Gurduara Sahib last year. Dr Jagtar Singh (a close friend) who is a GURSIKH (Amritdhari) in his early 30's was playing on basketball court at Gurduara Sahib with High school aged Kids, 2 Cars came, full of young boys looking for a kid (to beat) the person they were looking for was not there. One of the guys from the Car lighted a Cigrette on the Basketball court standing in the middle of BB Court. when Jagtar Singh told him politely to stop all of the miscreants attacked him and opened his skull. He was taken to emergency and luckily he is ok now.

Now my answer is we have BB courts in every neighbourhood, we cannot control what goes on Playground (do you realise that we have a big Drug problem within our community?) and Drug dealers come to such places to recruits under age boys. but again that is a different subject.

Swimming pool idea @ Gurduara Sahib is a first from you - When i picture it in my mind I laugh. CJSA Sangat High school aged girls come to me every year asking for a letter for exemption from mandatory swimming at High School based on religous grounds. Now the situation is lot of people have rural background and did not introduce swimming at a young age and when they are in High School they are too shy to be in swim suit with the whole class. Do you realize that Swimming pool at Gurduara Sahib how many problems it will create ? liabilities ...... a big NO is my answer. I have two daughters and they both take swim lessons and i started them when they were 4 years old.

There are Swimming pools, Basketball courts, youth counselling, recreation halls and psychological help available to us because we are Tax paying citizens of this country.


This is more like a Community Center - there is a lot of talk going about this for a while. But my suggestion is this should not be affiliated with Gurduara Sahib as there will be conflict of interest. Giddha and Bhangra is not Gursikh's jeevan.


Banquet Hall at Gurduara Sahib is a Big NO. Conflict of interest! this discussion started because of this problem - banquet hall.


Gurduara Sahib is a sacred place. Booze party at Gurduara Sahib the night before sounds more like a typical Punjabi home - in the morning Kirtan/BHOG ceremony - in the evening Booze party!

i will follow up on this more later. I have to leave now

Bhul Chuk Maaf!
Harjot Singh

Harjot Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately you have not responded to my questions from the first post and in your above posts you have not discussed anything about Miri Piri and other points I tried to discuss with you, which I hope you do.

You have talked about the problems and said NO to each rather than acknowledging them and then try to find solutions. These problems happen in every society. Some solve them and some ignore them rather than confronting them. If we keep on sweeping this dust under the rug we are standing on, then we will be the first one to trip on that.

The way you have given examples of the negative sides and the problems which do exist in Sikhi, but you have responded all with your big NO's, I can do the same and share some very success stories under the same thing you talked about.

Sikhi is about finding solutions to the problems not creating a dwelling in a cocoon where only the few chosen ones can enter. That is NOT the concept of Miri-Piri in Sikhi but rather to the contrary.

Hope to have answers to the questions raised from you. But please keep in mind, we know we have problems. Acknowledgment of the problems is the first step to find solutions rather than ignoring them as if they did not relate to us or to our religion.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[findingmyway]

Dear Tejwant Ji and hpannu ji,

You both make some excellent points. The question of who should decide what is the gurmat way remains a mystery!

As this thread has shown and as has been seen on the Japji translation thread as well as shown during the Prof Darshan Singh controversy, everyone's understanding of the gurmat way is different-some differences large, some small. I don't think any of us can say only my way is the right way and I don't think there can be a single right way for the entire world on the above matters due to cultural differences. I think it is also important to remember that Sikhi is a journey. The Gurdwara needs to be a place to nurture people who are at different understandings but are developing themselves without discriminating against any and without scaring them away.
It's a minefield!! The answer to the question where do we draw the line to what is tolerable and who should decide, is definitely not an easy one. When setting rules and regulations there will always be bias, especially in the grey area. We are all human beings after all!

Best wishes,
Jasleen

 

[hpannu]

Harjot Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately you have not responded to my questions from the first post and in your above posts you have not discussed anything about Miri Piri and other points I tried to discuss with you, which I hope you do.

You have talked about the problems and said NO to each rather than acknowledging them and then try to find solutions. These problems happen in every society. Some solve them and some ignore them rather than confronting them. If we keep on sweeping this dust under the rug we are standing on, then we will be the first one to trip on that.

The way you have given examples of the negative sides and the problems which do exist in Sikhi, but you have responded all with your big NO's, I can do the same and share some very success stories under the same thing you talked about.

Sikhi is about finding solutions to the problems not creating a dwelling in a cocoon where only the few chosen ones can enter. That is NOT the concept of Miri-Piri in Sikhi but rather to the contrary.

Hope to have answers to the questions raised from you. But please keep in mind, we know we have problems. Acknowledgment of the problems is the first step to find solutions rather than ignoring them as if they did not relate to us or to our religion.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwant Singh Ji,

It seems to me you don't like me opinions. You expressed yours and I didn't get frustrated. Like i said i will answer your questions one at a time and all of a sudden you go into defensive mode. I don't know about our people I have gone through this before, apda taan sareeyaan noon sunaonde aa parr dusre di nahin sun ke raji. At the end of day if we don't learn anything from this whole thing then i consider it a waste of time Lahnat he mere te !

You asked me about Miri Piri ? I will answer my side but will also ask you the same, have you taken the first step towards GURU VALA BANAN LAI ! meaning AMRIT CHAKAN lai tyar hon ! koi goal hae ki kad chakna hai ! 1 year from now or .....when.... if not then please don't argue over these things Sab ton Pehlan apne aap val dekho ki mein ki haan ? then try to change others. Internet is both good and bad, you can sit behind a desk and if you have enough free time keep going like this 4ever.

Now comes the MIRI PIRI question - I am an AMRITDHARI SIKH in my 40's , i have two daughters and a beautiful wife. Both my daughters are learning GURMUKHI, GATKA, are taking Swim lessons and enrolled in Soccer. Oh i forgot we are also learning KIRTAN that includes me too. That was about my family. I have been also given the SEVA to be responsible for GURMUKHI at our Punjabi School. Like i told you in my previous posts I have given up on Management and volunteer my time towards our coming generation. I am very happy in doing this SEVA because management was waste of time, Kandhan vich takaran maran vali gal si !

Ik gal sikhi hai from the whole experience Jehra vi Kamm karna hei Datt ke Karna hai ! vich vichale nahin chalda kamm ! people can call me hardliner -Je GURDUARA SAHIB khar ke GURU VALI GAL nahin kar sakde tann hor kithe karoge - don't be hypocrite !

I am also wondering at other Sevadaars on this site, why they are quite ? maybe it's me - i don't have all the answers and don't claim to.

If i am wrong please let me know we live in a free country and democracy prevails.

If i left out anything please remind me i will try my best to answer it. My answer might not be what you expect but i will definately answer it.
Eagerly waiting for your response.
Bhul Chuk Maaf karna ji,
Harjot Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Let me intervene with some focus questions.

1. Was there a beadhbi of the Guru at the UK Gurdwara? If there was a beadhbi, what was it?
2. What rules should we use to decide whether it was a beadhbi or not?
3. What rules should we use to decide one way or the other about the kinds of things that should or should not be sponsored on the premises of a gurdwara - and/or its adjacent buildings and properties?
4. Which rehat should a gurdwara management committee use to decide on policies and procedures on matters related to individual and corporate panthic life?
5. Modern times impose modern challenges on life in the sangat. Traditions that worked 50 years ago in the pind may no longer be useful. If suggestions come forward that are not covered by SRM, how should a management committee decide?


Perhaps there is a need to divert separate some comments so far to a separate thread?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Harjot Singh ji,

Guru fateh.

Thanks for the response.

You write:

It seems to me you don't like me opinions.

I am sorry to say but NO is not an opinion.

You expressed yours and I didn't get frustrated. Like i said i will answer your questions one at a time and all of a sudden you go into defensive mode.

Yes, I gave my opinions with reasons whereas you just kept on repeating NO. It is amusing to notice how you judge others without knowing them. Please show me where I showed a defensive mode. I just repeated what you repeatedly said rather than expressing your opinions with basis and reasoning why you believe in what you do. Once again saying NO to everything is not an opinion.Please correct me if I am wrong but I have the feeling that you forgot to read both my posts and did not give yourself sometime to digest and reflect on what I have said. You should give explainatons about your thoughts why you think like that which is called an opinion. Once again NO is not an opinion but being adamantly parochial without giving yourself the chance to see what the other one is talking about.

I At the end of day if we don't learn anything from this whole thing then i consider it a waste of time Lahnat he mere te !

I totally agree with you, shame on both of us if we do not learn anything and make it tug of wars of egos which is neither my objective, nor do I intend or pretend to do the same.

You asked me about Miri Piri ? I will answer my side but will also ask you the same, have you taken the first step towards GURU VALA BANAN LAI ! meaning AMRIT CHAKAN lai tyar hon ! koi goal hae ki kad chakna hai ! 1 year from now or .....when.... if not then please don't argue over these things Sab ton Pehlan apne aap val dekho ki mein ki haan ? then try to change others. Internet is both good and bad, you can sit behind a desk and if you have enough free time keep going like this 4ever.

Those who do not understand Punjabi, allow me to translate. "Are you ready to belong to the Guru, by which I mean is that are you ready for Amrit Chaknah? Do you have any goal towards it? The next sentence is in English."1 year from now or .....when.... if not then please don't argue over these things". Here it continues: "First look at yourself and find out what you really are." The paragraph ends with a sentence in English.

Harjot Singh ji. I have no idea why you are so upset and prejudgemental. Unfortunately, it is quite unbecoming of an AMRITDHARI SIKH. A Sikh's duty is to ask questions when he/she does not know the facts about others rather than claiming to know more about others than about themselves. What made you come to the conclusion that I have not taken Khandei di Pahul and then lecturing me in a sarcastic manner if I would be ready for it in a year or not? It is hillarious to say the least. Here, it seems your ego has taken the better of you. I had never seen this side of yours. But I want to assure you that I am not offended at all by your predetermined judgemental nature.

I have been Amritdhari since the Vaisakhi day of 1988..And, let me also share with you that it was a true metamorphosis for me, from a crawling little caterpillar to a wing fluttering butterfly. But let me also make a confession. I am still trying to learn how to flutter my wings on this Sikhi marg so that I can hop around and relish the scent of the flowers of this Gurmat garden, but the event itself was like Gungei ki mithai for me.

This is the beauty of the internet, which in my opinion is also part of the Hukam of Ik Ong Kaar, that all of us can sit behind our desks and participate in this cyber Sadh Sangat by exchanging Gurmat ideas with others from all walks of lives, no matter which part of this speck of sand called the Earth we live on.Unfortunately the same can not be duplicated in the actual Gurdwara gathering on every Sunday. Here we can do it 24-7 because we are attracted towards it, all thanks to the cyber Sadh Sangat and to the Sevadaars of this great forum.

Now comes the MIRI PIRI question - I am an AMRITDHARI SIKH in my 40's ,i have two daughters and a beautiful wife. Both my daughters are learning GURMUKHI, GATKA, are taking Swim lessons and enrolled in Soccer. Oh i forgot we are also learning KIRTAN that includes me too. That was about my family. I have been also given the SEVA to be responsible for GURMUKHI at our Punjabi School. Like i told you in my previous posts I have given up on Management and volunteer my time towards our coming generation. I am very happy in doing this SEVA because management was waste of time, Kandhan vich takaran maran vali gal si !

It is nice to know that you are a devout father and have 2 wonderful daughters and a great wife, but sadly, that still does not answer my question of using the concept of Miri- Piri in the Gurdwara management and its affairs. I wish you would give your opinion and shed some light on it.

Ik gal sikhi hai from the whole experience Jehra vi Kamm karna hei Datt ke Karna hai ! vich vichale nahin chalda kamm ! people can call me hardliner -Je GURDUARA SAHIB khar ke GURU VALI GAL nahin kar sakde tann hor kithe karoge - don't be hypocrite

!

Pardon my ignorance, but I did not understand what you meant by the above. Can you please elaborate what you are trying to say. Secondly, many members do not know Punjabi, so I would request you to say what you said above in English so all can understand it.

You are also accusing me of being a hypocrite. Can you please share with me what I wrote in my posts made you come to that conclusion, especially as an Amrtidhari Sikh?

Lastly, you still have not responded about your claim that meat is a kurhait.

Harjot Singh ji. We are all here to learn from each other. Disagreements are part of the learning process, hence we call ourselves Sikhs. There is no need to get upset and I do apologise if my opinions made you angry. That has never been my intention. If I were you, I would read my posts again and check the reasoning behind them and then feel free to share your reasoning whether you agree with mine or not.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh