Understanding The Journey Of The Devotees Of The Lord

[spnadmin]

NamJap ji

To me this is the key sentence in the response of your friend.

To be illiterate is fine, because it is humility and surrender to the God that you don't know enough to obstruct His light with your material misunderstanding.

Kabir intends us to grasp that whatever intellect tells us to expect contradicts knowledge of the Divine. As your friend is saying, material understanding is "material misunderstanding" when seeking God. Kabir also says....

ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਸਨ ਖੀਰੁ ਬਿਲੋਵੈ ॥੨॥
bin baasan kheer bilovai ||2||
Without a churn, the milk is churned. ||2||

and later in the same shabad

http://www.searchgurbani.com/bhagats/bhagatkabir.htm ਪੈਡੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਾਟ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥
paiddae bin baatt ghanaeree ||
Without travelling, a long journey is made.


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਟ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
bin sathigur baatt n paaee ||
Without the True Guru, the path is not found.


ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸਮਝਾਈ ॥੩॥੩॥
kahu kabeer samajhaaee ||3||3||
Says Kabeer, see this, and understand. ||3||3||

The intellect interprets cause and effect or describes material reality, making predictions, finding patterns, creating concepts and theories. But in the world of spirit one's journey does not involve travel in our familiar dimensions of material knowledge. The spirit is churned without a churn. These contradictions are deliberate. As you can see in the shabad that you quoted

ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਸਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰੁ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਹਾਇ ॥
कबीर संसा दूरि करु कागद देह बिहाइ ॥
Kabīr sansā ḏūr kar kāgaḏ ḏeh bihā▫e.
Kabeer, give up your skepticism; let your papers float away.

All the products of intellect have to give way in surrender. Your friend writes in a very poetic way.

Thankx.

 

[pk70]

First of all, namjap ji, these are Kabir ji’s Slokas not shabad therefore different ideas are conveyed in Slokas unlike in a Shabad. Let’s try to understand them first

ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋਠੀ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਆਗਿ ॥
कबीर कोठी काठ की दह दिसि लागी आगि ॥
Kabīr koṯẖī kāṯẖ kī ḏah ḏis lāgī āg.
Kabeer, the wooden house is burning on all sides.
Imagine this body a house of wood with fire set on it, so in the body, the fire of desires, ego, deep attachment etc has been set on, the body is being consumed every bit of time by this fire. Now read the next Vaak that states who are saved and who are not from this fire
ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਜਲਿ ਮੂਏ ਮੂਰਖ ਉਬਰੇ ਭਾਗਿ ॥੧੭੨॥
पंडित पंडित जलि मूए मूरख उबरे भागि ॥१७२॥
Pandiṯ pandiṯ jal mū▫e mūrakẖ ubre bẖāg. ||172||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, have been burnt to death, while the illiterate ones run to safety. ||172||
The intellectuals/scholars have a problem of ego etc, they have a problem to surrender ego by being having pride in it. Illiterate ones do not have that problem and are quickly eager to give up all that causing the fire and are saved. The intellectuals remained stick to ego and consequently are burnt by it. The next sloka is very relevant to this one.

ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਸਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰੁ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਹਾਇ ॥
कबीर संसा दूरि करु कागद देह बिहाइ ॥
Kabīr sansā ḏūr kar kāgaḏ ḏeh bihā▫e.
Kabeer, give up your skepticism; let your papers float away.
Ego creates doubts, doubts create duality. Ego also inspires to be righteous as described above, so it blocks freedom from all that. Directly Kabir ji is advising to give up this “paper” means the knowledge acquired by the intellect guided by ego, as it won’t helpful in obtaining the Lord. So it is advisable to abandon it and to surrender it to the Lord. Remember where Kab[/FONT] ਬਾਵਨ ਅਖਰ ਸੋਧਿ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ॥੧੭੩॥
बावन अखर सोधि कै हरि चरनी चितु लाइ ॥१७३॥
Bāvan akẖar soḏẖ kai har cẖarnī cẖiṯ lā▫e. ||173||
Find the essence of the letters of the alphabet, and focus your consciousness on the Lord. ||173||
Bawan Akhri is used for knowledge- obtaining- medium. It means ponder over obtained knowledge of scriptures and meditate on the Lord.

Burning of the body should not be related to time as per your friend’s statement because time is fixed for all, commoners or enlightened ones, it is the ego that sets fire along with other negative forces for which we remain determined to please them.
I agree with your friend where he/she states about getting above praise or criticism and pleasing business. The spiritual goal is not gained as long as we are into pleasing our “self” and others. Bani written in the praise of the Lord goes beyond papers. To feel Presence of the Lord is just impossible as long as we are torn apart between this worldly right and wrong affair and pursuit to seek Him. That is another reason, in Gurbani, it is repeatedly said “a few in million will realize Him” Both slokas of Kabir ji hint at ego and knowledge related to ego as hindrance in union with the Lord. In the Sloka number 173, Kabir ji is directly advising us to get rid of ego related knowledge but to ponder over the divine knowledge acquired through learning religious scriptures and to meditate on the Lord. These are my humble views on it.
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[Astroboy]

What does one do when his marriage/spouse becomes a hindrance to spiritual attainment ?
I will spare you the details as they are commonly known by all.

 

[spnadmin]

NamJap ji -- Marriage, spouse, children, in-laws, relatives in need, hostile neighbors and co-workers, job responsibilities and all the things faced by householder get in the way in one sense. Sant Kabir was part of the Bhakti movement of northern Indian. Guru Nanak had a somewhat different perspective. There is a good explanation of the difference at this link http://www.sikhnet.com/news/bhakti-movement-800-ad-1700-ad

Our liberation may come from the fact that Guru Nanak looked at things in a fresh way.

I do not have answers obviously -- but we have the possibility of working surrender to the Shabad into each nook and cranny of our day in spite of everyone else by working dhyann into the corners of our lives and consciousness where the rest of the world cannot reach us. I think the dhyann comes first and then the realization -- after that detachment becomes a truth in our lives. Kabir may or may not have known Guru Nanak, and he speaks about giving up intellect, and then finding God. I think Nanak was saying surrender intellect to the Shabad, and you will find God --- and then mann will be silenced. In my humble opinion -- they are a little different.

 

[Astroboy]

Here's a portion of a shabad touching on family entanglements :-
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਰੋਗੁ ॥
जा कउ चिंता बहुतु बहुतु देही विआपै रोगु ॥
Jā ka▫o cẖinṯā bahuṯ bahuṯ ḏehī vi▫āpai rog.
When you are plagued by great and excessive anxiety, and diseases of the body;

ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤਿ ਕੁਟੰਬਿ ਪਲੇਟਿਆ ਕਦੇ ਹਰਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
ग्रिसति कुट्मबि पलेटिआ कदे हरखु कदे सोगु ॥
Garisaṯ kutamb paleti▫ā kaḏe harakẖ kaḏe sog.
when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow;

ਗਉਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ਕਾ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
गउणु करे चहु कुंट का घड़ी न बैसणु सोइ ॥
Ga▫oṇ kare cẖahu kunt kā gẖaṛī na baisaṇ so▫e.
when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment -

ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
चिति आवै ओसु पारब्रहमु तनु मनु सीतलु होइ ॥३॥
Cẖiṯ āvai os pārbarahm ṯan man sīṯal ho▫e. ||3||
if you come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed. ||3||

For full shabad : #22 (permalink)

 

[pk70]

What does one do when his marriage/spouse becomes a hindrance to spiritual attainment ?
I will spare you the details as they are commonly known by all.

Namjap ji
Personally only those people ask such questions who have very strong desire to pursue the Lord but are torn apart with the both, the Lord and the world. I do not consider myself qualified to advise you on it but I would like to share how I look at it while being in your shoes.
As Gurbani says (quoted before too) ਹਸੰਦਿਆਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥੨॥(SGGS 522)
Hasanḏi▫ā kẖelanḏi▫ā painanḏi▫ā kẖāvanḏi▫ā vicẖe hovai mukaṯ. ||2||
While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2||

How is this possible? As per my understanding, keep dealing with all, do hard work to perform responsibilities being a married man towards the family and the society but never follow those who become hindrance in your journey. Keep struggling to go above pleasing each other business, stop acknowledging those thoughts that stop you progressing on your path. I encountered a humble and spiritually advanced person. People came and praised him, he responded “ Use all this praise for the Lord, you would be better off, you are praising the dust of the Lord and forgetting the Lord, please praise Him, it will put smiles on my face” If you notice, even in wishing others, the Lord is kept dominant” Sat Sree Akaal, Waheguru ji ki fateh etc” It is an effort to focus on Him. There is no abandonment of the family in this journey but to keep focusing on your pursuit with high priority. For whom we fall will not be helpful in our pursuit. Spiritually enlightened ones say “ the soul eventually finds its goal as it harbors nothing but Him within, at that point no effort is needed, and all actions come out of focus on Him and the state of mind goes to this level described by Guru ji
ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥ ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਲੋਗਾ ਰੀਤਿ ॥ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਮੀਤ ਸਮਾਨੇ ॥ ਤੁਰੀਆ ਗੁਣੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧ ਪਛਾਨੇ ॥੨॥
Parathme ṯi▫āgī ha▫umai parīṯ. Ḏuṯī▫ā ṯi▫āgī logā rīṯ. Ŧarai guṇ ṯi▫āg ḏurjan mīṯ samāne. Ŧurī▫ā guṇ mil sāḏẖ pacẖẖāne. ||2|| Firstly, I have given up the love of pride. Secondly, I have renounced the customs of others. Abandoning the three qualities, I deem an evil person and a friend the same (alike). Meeting the saintly Guru I have realized the excellences of the fourth (highest) state of mind.
So far this is what I have understood and am struggling to walk on it, obviously when I fall, I feel it in a big way. When ever I fall, the cause is the same we struggle against. Some times I feel while discussing an issue, I am falling. Many times I think of getting out of it but the mission I have to share Guru Message with others keeps me in it. I am literally on cross roads in this context. Guru ji speaks directly in this context, please ponder over
SGGS Ji 384
ਸਾਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
Sācẖ nām merā man lāgā.
My mind is attached to the True Name.
ਲੋਗਨ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਰਾ ਠਾਠਾ ਬਾਗਾ ॥੧॥
Logan si▫o merā ṯẖāṯẖā bāgā. ||1||
My dealings with other people are only superficial. ||1||
ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੂਤੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਉ ਮਉਲਾ ॥
Bāhar sūṯ sagal si▫o ma▫ulā.
Outwardly, I am on good terms with all;

ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਰਹਉ ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਉਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Alipaṯ raha▫o jaise jal mėh ka▫ulā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
but I remain detached, like the lotus upon the water. ||1||Pause||
ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਉ ਕਰਤਾ ॥
Mukẖ kī bāṯ sagal si▫o karṯā.
By word of mouth, I talk with everyone;
ਜੀਅ ਸੰਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਪੁਨਾ ਧਰਤਾ ॥੨
Jī▫a sang parabẖ apunā ḏẖarṯā. ||2||
but I keep God clasped to my heart. ||2||
ਦੀਸਿ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਭੀਹਾਲਾ ॥
Ḏīs āvaṯ hai bahuṯ bẖīhālā.
I may appear utterly terrible,
ਸਗਲ ਚਰਨ ਕੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਲਾ ॥੩॥
Sagal cẖaran kī ih man rālā. ||3||
but my mind is the dust of all men's feet.
ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Nānak jan gur pūrā pā▫i▫ā.
Servant Nanak has found the Perfect Guru.
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੩॥੫੪॥
Anṯar bāhar ek ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. ||4||3||54||
Inwardly and outwardly, He has shown me the One Lord. ||4||3||54||
There is a lot of Guru Advice on SGGS 297.

 

[spnadmin]

Here's a portion of a shabad touching on family entanglements :-
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਰੋਗੁ ॥
जा कउ चिंता बहुतु बहुतु देही विआपै रोगु ॥
Jā ka▫o cẖinṯā bahuṯ bahuṯ ḏehī vi▫āpai rog.
When you are plagued by great and excessive anxiety, and diseases of the body;

ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤਿ ਕੁਟੰਬਿ ਪਲੇਟਿਆ ਕਦੇ ਹਰਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
ग्रिसति कुट्मबि पलेटिआ कदे हरखु कदे सोगु ॥
Garisaṯ kutamb paleti▫ā kaḏe harakẖ kaḏe sog.
when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow;

ਗਉਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ਕਾ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
गउणु करे चहु कुंट का घड़ी न बैसणु सोइ ॥
Ga▫oṇ kare cẖahu kunt kā gẖaṛī na baisaṇ so▫e.
when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment -

ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
चिति आवै ओसु पारब्रहमु तनु मनु सीतलु होइ ॥३॥
Cẖiṯ āvai os pārbarahm ṯan man sīṯal ho▫e. ||3||
if you come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed. ||3||

For full shabad : #22 (permalink)

Nam Jap ji -- Thanks for the Shabad. It is a perfect example of what I was trying to say. Guru Nanak understood the difficulties of a householder and did not shame people into a way of life where they would feel guilt because of the realities of their lives. This is what is so remarkable and unique about Guruji's message. Nowhere else do you find it.

One path is the path of renunciation. On that path the devotee leaves everything and everyone behind in search of personal mukhti. In a way that person does nothing to raise others up; whereas, Guru Nanak says that we rescue ourselves and others when we tie ourselves to the raft of his Shabad. Guru Nanak teaches us how to give as well as how to receive. I become very emotional about this.

One has to ask where the moral core exists in a path that does not link compassion to liberation.

ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤਿ ਕੁਟੰਬਿ ਪਲੇਟਿਆ ਕਦੇ ਹਰਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
ग्रिसति कुट्मबि पलेटिआ कदे हरखु कदे सोगु ॥
Garisaṯ kutamb paleti▫ā kaḏe harakẖ kaḏe sog.
when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow;

ਗਉਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ਕਾ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
गउणु करे चहु कुंट का घड़ी न बैसणु सोइ ॥
Ga▫oṇ kare cẖahu kunt kā gẖaṛī na baisaṇ so▫e.
when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment -

ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
चिति आवै ओसु पारब्रहमु तनु मनु सीतलु होइ ॥३॥
Cẖiṯ āvai os pārbarahm ṯan man sīṯal ho▫e. ||3||
if you come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed. ||3||

 

[Astroboy]

So far this is what I have understood and am struggling to walk on it, obviously when I fall, I feel it in a big way.

When ever I fall, the cause is the same we struggle against. Some times I feel while discussing an issue, I am falling. Many times I think of getting out of it but the mission I have to share Guru Message with others keeps me in it. I am literally on cross roads in this context. Guru ji speaks directly in this context, please ponder over
SGGS Ji 384
ਸਾਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
Sācẖ nām merā man lāgā.
My mind is attached to the True Name.
ਲੋਗਨ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਰਾ ਠਾਠਾਬਾਗਾ ॥੧॥
Logan si▫o merā ṯẖāṯẖā bāgā. ||1||
My dealings with other people are only superficial. ||1||
ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੂਤੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਉ ਮਉਲਾ॥
Bāhar sūṯ sagal si▫o ma▫ulā.
Outwardly, I am on good terms with all;

ਅਲਿਪਤੁ ਰਹਉ ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਉਲਾ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Alipaṯ raha▫o jaise jal mėh ka▫ulā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
but I remain detached, like the lotus upon the water. ||1||Pause||
ਕੀਬਾਤਸਗਲਸਿਉਕਰਤਾ॥
Mukẖ kī bāṯ sagal si▫o karṯā.
By word of mouth, I talk with everyone;
ਜੀਅਸੰਗਿਪ੍ਰਭੁਅਪੁਨਾਧਰਤਾ॥੨
Jī▫a sang parabẖ apunā ḏẖarṯā. ||2||
but I keep God clasped to my heart. ||2||
ਦੀਸਿ ਆਵਤ ਹੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਭੀਹਾਲਾ॥
Ḏīs āvaṯ hai bahuṯ bẖīhālā.
I may appear utterly terrible,
ਸਗਲ ਚਰਨ ਕੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਾਲਾ॥੩॥
Sagal cẖaran kī ih man rālā. ||3||
but my mind is the dust of all men's feet.
ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
Nānak jan gur pūrā pā▫i▫ā.
Servant Nanak has found the Perfect Guru.
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥੪॥੩॥੫੪॥
Anṯar bāhar ek ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. ||4||3||54||
Inwardly and outwardly, He has shown me the One Lord. ||4||3||54||
There is a lot of Guru Advice on SGGS 297.

PK70 Ji,

As hungry a soul I am right now, this video clip was brought to my attention recently.
It's about who we really are ? Or close to it.

YouTube - How it feels to have a stroke

 

[pk70]

namjap ji

It is very informatory video about brains and to understand effects of disabled part of brains. Dr. Tailor has presented it exceptionally interesting way. Thanks for sharing it with SPN members and guests.

I would like to add here my expressions in relevant to our earlier discussion. The enlightened ones become able to disable that part of brains that keeps us on the fire. By having stroke as Dr. Tailor had, one can experience that. Surprisingly the society shows sympathy and passion for the victim of the stroke but in the case enlightened one, it rarely does as it fails to understand the state of mind. Those who hinder the seeker to progress spiritually actually are not aware of that act by being very ignorant about it. All said in above quoted Guru shabad are instructions of disabling that function of the brains that drags us to the fire when it is not needed. Unlike in the stroke-state,we can go to the past or imagine the future but when that function is disabled, no effect materializes in any way. Thanks.

 

[spnadmin]

pk70 ji

Thank you for being able to put this into words. It was impossible for me to figure out how to say this:

The enlightened ones become able to disable that part of brains that keeps us on the fire.

This is important -- otherwise enlightenment would be a simple case of brain-wave activation with no particular spiritual significance attached to it. You could get the same result with electrodes. Sat Nam.

 

[Archived_Member5]

‘’Conquering one’s mind avails not, nor family friends and well wishers, when the tyrannical one has cast you into hell. Should I play the victim my Lord will be accused as my tormentor, therefore I sully my superficial demeanour with ubiquitous ambiguity. I Am, and yet I am not, wheretofore I roam my soul doth find and expose me. I will not bow or submit and he proffers forth not his hand. Is it the Lords will or is my defeat the defeat of him also. The head ache’s and tormented remains, I dispense of my thoughts and in confusion remain. Where shall I run for not of this world am I, yet I remain. ‘’man gur mil ke kaaj savare’’ . I bleed and the world bleeds with me, in my despair I am and I am not to shield me from the enemies of my Lord in whose capture I remain. ‘’Aap hath deh mohe bachavo’’. I will not run to another or seek assistance, only your mercy can save me, am I wrong, should I run, and if so to where would I go. Should I enquire of silent remain. She dwells in her abode, whilst the five loot and pillage of her good fortune, the five are unseen demagogues neither friend nor family. Unseen and unknown. To win again the Love of the Lord is to gain grace from ones Patti Ji. I am bound and the enemy greater than he and I. I could not cast a shadow of danger upon he who gave me nothing but shelter and peace. Behinds me lies the ruins of my father house, and my in laws home. There are demons spewn forth from this being my Lord has denied his grace to confer. I have lost my way, and yet I look and find little lights flickering in my darkness, leading my way back unto the right path. It is not I who roam, nor of any sin have I committed. The witnesses bleed with my tortured soul, and death comes not to take me. What to do ... ‘’ Anon.