Urgent! Need Help With Some Gender Equality Questions!

[Harkiran Kaur]

I am in a rather heated discussion with someone on Facebook, who touts himself as being extremely religious and knowledgeable in Sikhi. He is trying to tell me these things and saying they are backed up by Gurbani:

1. That women are not allowed to talk to men (at all) outside of marriage.
2. That women can not work in an atmosphere like I do (where I am in the military, working with mostly men, some under me)
3. That women should not work at all

He has asked someone these things on Facebook openly and publicly on his page (probably because he was so serious about it and hoped I would see it) This is the reply the supposed 'scholar' came up with (this is their convo with names removed):

him: kake, this is very urgent. I need some excerpts from gurbani where it is mentioned that before marriage a woman can not talk to a man.

guy he asked: veer ji, depend karda hai talk kistran di hai? pls inbox kro thoda tarh smjhayo.

him: karitch all I want to know is that is a woman allowed to do a job first of all. Secondly can a Sikh woman dress in all kind of jewellery and fashioned up and then go to Gurdwara. Can she talk just normal talk and work in a workplace where there are only men even if she does not talk anything bad with the men? In general what are the limitations to women, like we guys have Rehat maryada. Just tell me what Guru Granth Sahib ji says women should be like?

guy he asked: 1st of all paji job thing is not clear bcoz in guru sahibs time no woman was doin job, but rehet says that we 'shouldn't use money of daughters and sisters' as far as jewelery is concerned Sikhs both man and woman are not allowed to pierce their ears or nose but apart from that other jewelery is fine coz I have heard katha of sant maskin ji, and if she doing job somewhere I think normal talk is fine. and when it comes to limitation both man and woman are equal. limitations are same for both of them.

him: So according to you Sikhism agrees on a woman working?

guy he asked: Its not clear paaji but guru sahib was not in favour nor against it. baaki Sikh code of conduct say we shouldn't use money of daughters and sisters. but I strongly think we shouldn't allow our females to go out and work.

end convo
------

Okay... so my questions are. Obviously this guy he asked, doesn't think women should be 'allowed' to work... kind of goes against his own words when he said limitations are same for both men and women, they are equal. Since 'allowing' women to do something or not implies superiority over them.

What is this thing he is referring to about not using money from daughters and sisters? Is how he interpreted it correct? That women should not be able to have a career (ie women should be stuck cooking and cleaning and raising kids and not being able to contribute to society as scholars, doctors, scientists etc) ?? Or is it more like the Islamic interpretation of an almost same line in their faith where it says that money earned by women should belong to them alone to use??

This guy has been on me for weeks on there saying that unless I give up all my friends who are male, give up my career and basically lock myself in my house so I can't talk to any men, then I am not serious about Sikhism.

I need to fight fire with fire and use actual passages from Guru Granth Sahib Ji to back my arguments up.

Can anyone help me??

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

Bibi Ji, If I were you ..tell him.. ...that is what brahmanwaadi long haired sikhs propogate!as a Sikh of the GURU you are not interested nor affected by his long haired brahmwaad.
He is no sikh nor any human, he is simply a male chauvinistic material.There is nothing any decent person can do about such males.

The only worth material is about wearing excessive jewallery and make up...sikhism does not encourage shows and falsehood of hair, make up or fashion...but as things are all things moderate are acceptbale in sikhi without any abuse of self image pride and persona or another.

Our Guru teaches equality and equal opportunities for all.Amen.Dont waste your time with such fools.

You know what perhaps he himself is Muslim influenced and practices that culture to be saying such things that are totally against sikhi..of course nothing stops him pretending to be a sikh and trying to run it down in such ways or simply a false profile,and influenced himself by islam.

Bibi, Ji just a thought came to mind..the fact that he wants to "This guy has been on me for weeks on there saying that unless I give up all my friends who are male, give up my career and basically lock myself in my house so I can't talk to any men, then I am not serious about Sikhism.""

I WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL OF FURTHER WASTEFUL CORRESPONDANCE with this person..THE lines above are the sign of brain washing...he want's to dominate your life and your space and then dictate to you...take CONTROL of you and then direct you...as he wants to...would not be suprised he is from another faith or simply a person who is a control freak.THere is nothing sikhi abt this.

 

[kds1980]

Akasha ji

Guru granth sahib is spirituality .It doesn't deal with day to day issue's of of human life.For timely decision Panth was also given status of Guruship and they can take decision regarding these matter

As a matter of fact Bibi Jagir kaur was president of SGPC and there are other dominant woman leaders in SGPC , so Akal takhat is clear that women can work ,talk to men etc.First ask him where Akal takhat has said that women cannot work or talk to men and then resume to debate

Internet is full of crazies ,it is better to avoid them

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhenji

You seem intelligent and articulate, why are you wasting your time with these {censored}s?

These are people that put more emphasis on ridiculous 'orders' and rituals rather than the core, which is simply to live the life of a good Sikh.

Utilising quotes from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is utterly pointless, it is like tasting a single pea and hoping you get the complete essence of a lamb curry, We both know what is right in our hearts and what Creator expects from us with regard to our treatment of ourselves and Creation itself, that is it, the rest is icing on the cake, in my humble opinion

 

[BlazinSikh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

Did Guru Nanak Dev Ji say "why call her weak, when kings are born from her" that is the only line you will need to defeat idiots like him that one line really outline that women are not weak, nor no one slaves execpt Ik Onkar Ji, not man slaves. This behaviours sound more punjabi rather than sikhi, its not even on the same line of sikhi.

Most punjaban believe that fact that women should stay at home, and do choirs is because of male domination, in India man is dominant and women is inferior. Obviously you look and sound like a smart, strong women, so i do not believe that you are the sort of women to go flirting with men, plus there is nothing in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji which say's women should not talk to men, i mean if your not allowed to talk to men, how would you speak to your dadlolAll of this is just a punjabi culture, nothing sikhi. I've the guy is saying these things because he's afraid of losing a beautiful, smart women as you.

The 'shouldn't use money of daughters and sisters' thing i believe is just another punjabi things, i do not believe it say's anything like that in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

A women/man wearing any form of jewellery i do not see it written in SRM, however if you would like an opinion, is that i believe wearing Jewellery is just unwanted, i mean why try and make yourself look beautiful if you do not accept the beauty that GOD has given you (i'm not saying this about anyone, just my opinion on Jewellery)

Hope this helps0

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

You seem intelligent and articulate, why are you wasting your time with these {censored}s?

Because Harry Ji, I just can not refuse a good debate (especially when I know I am not in the wrong!!!)

As for the jewellery thing I don't know why he brought that into it. I don't wear my pierced earrings anymore, which the only thing rehet says (aside from nose piercings) I do wear a necklace that has sentimental value and a ring that I earned by qualifying as a submariner (similar to engineers wearing their engineer ring when they graduate) It's simply the 'dolphin' insignia that I earned by qualifying (worn on our uniform), which took great perseverance on my part, so I wear it to remind me that I can do anything I put my mind to. Other than that just my kara. And once in awhile a little bit of makeup so I don't look so washed out and pale (people actually ask me sometimes if I am anemic, so I wear a bit of colour to minimize the sickly look and reassure people that I am fine LOL)

But I came to Sikhi because of the equality. This guy seems to think otherwise regarding equality (or has a different definition of it)! And as I said, I love a good debate, and can't feel like I need to educate him a bit haha (I have a bit of a stubborn streak in me)

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

Bibi ji.., That streak in you is showing , that it will be your down fall..sometime...you are explaining yourself when you have no need or reason to be doing so ..you are defending yourself , you are justifying yourself, you are being defensive, you are explaining when no one has asked any from you..that is the first sign of ..loosing control over yourself...and i am also wondering now what is your motive comming to share,to reassure yourself or expound your streak..comming from a forensic background with 40 years of service behind me..I can see in what direction you are heading..but that would be your choice...you are looking for someone to tell you are doing a good job defending and debating, but at the same time ,you are loosing it ..your justification, explanation, rationale , your reasoning that YOU ARE NOT the person he is talking about ...shows many things ..that you dont see , nor perhaps want to...thus I see no purpose,to what you are trying to seek here...when you have no intentions of ...the choice is yours ..to take the bait..from him allow him to control you...dictate to you...things that are NOT at all sikhi.....or walk away while u can, with dignity.Such battles will not win anything.There is absolutely nothing academic about this so called "debate"It is a non starter ...and that person has ulterior motives...only YOU dont see it.I am sorry to be blunt, you want a debate seek some something constructive...it is clear as the sky in the sikh religion about equality of sexes- and non start.

 

[Archived_Member16]

CAUTION: There is a new breed of "TALIBAN SIKHS" with CLOSED MINDS; nothing is sacred to them! "Misinformation" is their Modus operandi.

Always insist that they MUST quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji [complete shabad with Panna ( page) number] or from Sikh Reht Maryada!

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Bibi ji.., That streak in you is showing , that it will be your down fall..sometime...you are explaining yourself when you have no need or reason to be doing s

...it is clear as the sky in the sikh religion about equality of sexes- and non start.

I know... I admit I have a bit of a defensive streak... and that he is frustrating me. I know I have to work on the stubborness... but its the fact that he was trying to support his views with Gurbani that upset me.

 

[spnadmin]

Because Harry Ji, I just can not refuse a good debate (especially when I know I am not in the wrong!!!)

... And as I said, I love a good debate, and can't feel like I need to educate him a bit haha (I have a bit of a stubborn streak in me)

Akasha ji

You titled this thread, "Urgent" "Need help with some gender equality issues!" If what you say above is true, that you cannot refuse a debate and you need to educate him, then this situation is not urgent and you do not need help. It is your choice to walk away. What makes you think this person is not enjoying the provocation immensely? You even have the power to delete his comments and remove him from those who can post on your wall.

What we focus on, we empower and enlarge. Good multiplies when focused upon. Negativity multiplies when focused upon. The choice is ours: Which do we want more of?

JULIA CAMERON, Blessings

 

[Luckysingh]

These kind of male chauvanists are the same ones that frequent 'massage parlours' and escort hookers !!!!
They like to do all this stuff outside their homes, whilst they have a wife at home who is cooking,cleaning and maintaining their home and homely lifestyle !!

I have come across many of these punjabi charachters in my life experience

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

You guys are right, I know in my heart women are equal in Sikhi... (even though there are some examples where this is not put into practice like at the Golden Temple, and the issue of women doing kirtan there etc.)

I have ceased communications with him. He started to ramble about other things as well, how the 'Sikh' society and a Gursikh family the wife and husband have a mutual agreement that she will take care of the house and not work and he will earn the money. And that these roles are defined by gender. (as a side note I know several Amritdhari couples and the women work and contribute to the financial needs and the men also help with house chores) So I told him the conversation was over.

He just frustrated me so much by openly asking this stuff on his page - and I know it was because I was talking about equality etc. He was trying to put me down for having a career and 'speaking and interacting' with males as if it was hugely immoral of me to do so. So I felt like it was a bit of a personal attack on me and he was now bringing others into it.

Thanks for your help... I have deleted him.

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

Bibi Ji,
You should keep yourself perfectly normal; break contact totally with such a Taliban Sikh and should not allow to dominate your viewpoint or for that matter of any other girl. Guru Nanak wrote: purkh mahi nar(i) nar(i) mah(i) purkha (p.879) There is the element of the male in the male and of the female in the female i.e., man himself is born out of woman and woman of man. Hence they both are equal.
Bhand(i0 jameeai, bhand(i), bhands(i) nimiai, bhand(i) mangn(u) viah(u). Bhand-h9U) hovh(i0 dsostee , bhandh(u0 chale rah(u), bhand(u) mua bhaND(U) BHALIAE, BHAND(I) HOVAI BANDHAN(u). So kion manda akhiae jit(u0 jamh(i) rajan(u)- meaning It is inside women that we are conceived and it is from her that we are born. It is to woman that we are engaged andmarried. It is a woman who is our life long comapnion and it is she who keeps our human race going. It is a woman again who is sought when one loses one's previous wife. It is a woman again who is sought when one loses one's previous wife. It is a woman through whom even kings and gentlemen are born (p.473). Nanak bhandai bhara eko sacha soi. Only God is out of the woman effect. (p. 473)
It shows that Guru Nanak gave better place and respect to women than men. Therefore we must should not resent this equality but respect it. We must not forget Mai Bhago serving Guru Gobind Singh's Army. She was alone with Guru Gobind Sing and numerous Sikhs. hence to say that women should not serve the army is chauvansitic; totally ridculous. Col Dr Dalvinder Singh Grewal

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

He started to ramble about other things as well, how the 'Sikh' society and a Gursikh family the wife and husband have a mutual agreement that she will take care of the house and not work and he will earn the money.

Was it on FB? It is always a good thing to share this stuff to others. It will expose him to those who consider him saintly and help him mince his words.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Was it on FB? It is always a good thing to share this stuff to others. It will expose him to those who consider him saintly and help him mince his words.

It was on Facebook. He is no longer in my friend list... He thought very highly of himself and his knowledge of Sikhi compared to everyone else. And told me that my Sangat locally here were all wrong. Obviously someone who is chauvinistic and thinks women should belong in the home cooking and cleaning only is obviously disregarding not only Gurbani about equality but also the Rehet where it is mentioned numerous times to uphold equality including gender. It even spells out in the Rehet that ALL Sikhs need to participate and contribute in the larger society and hold continuous dialogue with the community and the larger society. This does not specify only men. So I am assuming his views were culture based (even though he denied that). But anyway he is no more... I won't be hearing any more from him.

This experience has made me a bit worried though about trying to find a Sikh man to marry... I am hoping I don't inadvertently find another of these 'taliban Sikhs' who hides that fact from me until we are together. At the same time though I'd really like to meet and marry a Punjabi Sikh man to help me grow in Sikhi. So I guess I just have to be careful of who I am talking with. I don't want to end up locked in my house doing cleaning all day and being a slave! hahaha Hopefully most Sikh guys are not like this guy!!!

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Hmm that guy was a smug. Was he married? And it seems he had a fall out with his local sangat too. Not a surprising case of Sikh oblivious of what Guru says. Away from the basics.

Marriage is a big risk, but you sure won't find any locking up Sikhs. I would suggest throwing ideas at your suitor, like if you find a job in another city, would he go with you. And other stuff where you can explore his thinking. Yes you could probably scare others who do think of equality, but you need a courageous husband too!

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

1. That women are not allowed to talk to men

I think what he meant was that they don't talk after they're married to each other. lol

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

There is a new breed of "TALIBAN SIKHS" with CLOSED MINDS; nothing is sacred to them! "Misinformation" is their Modus operandi.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=39864


Yes there is a breed of such>But from my observations this breed s more interested in
only two or three issues.

One is promote their babadom,the fake Damdami taaksaal;or akj or something similar.

Two is to Khalistan or bhindrawala without a realstc self analysis of what we did to go wrong.
Three is again claim their maryada to be "puratan" and their paath pooja the real version.

But then one can never tell where they extend into or what other area a particular inidividual fanatic is inclined to take.

BUT I have one request from Bibi Akasha Ji.I did not use the word deliberately, BUT to me it is sign of initial grrooming attempts.

From what the discussions seems to have gone, I dont believe THIS inidividual is truly any Sikh.Initially challneging YOU and trying to prove to you and take control of you ..he then seems to have moved to the large sangat..community.This tells me that he is NOt necessarily a genuine sikh.There is a larger agenda of control freak and cyber grooming attempt.


It would be help really helpful that you expose his facebook account/identity to members here.I would really like to befriend this person and watch which way he leads me.If he is not exposed, he will entrap other young sikhs girls who may not be as savvy as you.It will also help us sikhs understand how certain people of other faiths lie lkeft and centre to get Sikh trapped.I am sure all of you must have seen the recent case of a Canadian Sikh lady;who was told by the person that he was a pakitsani Hindu /sikh and it looks lkike lured into some realtionship where she lent him hundereds of thousands.On the pretext of getting her rpaid through cheap sale of diamonds , he got her into pakistan where her body was alledgedly dispossed off.

Such freaks exist and do often carry out their nefarious acts to groom simple minded young ladies.

If you feel you do not feel confident to write openly pls, PM me...and I will treat this in confidence.

 

[spnadmin]

Chaan ji

This is an ever-present danger on the Internet, facebook a particular concern. Your words mean a lot and people should pay attention.

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

Thank you ji for your kind words.Yes SP Ji,Very sad that this age has brought such high means of communication and with it also the evil that could go with it.Cyber grooming is rife these days.I will feed back over the next few days or week.The trimmed beard etc just does not go with it all...does it?Very strange..concossion of ideology!