Hinduism Vaishnava Dharma And Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

[chazSingh]

yup



well if its that clear, could you possibly see your way to a page number or a quote?



quoted from where please thank you



this may come as a surprise or shock but there is a little more to being a Hindu then wearing a tilak



too late, mainstream Sikhism is fully absorbed into Hinduism, forget hari and narayan, Sikhs have our own deities now, Sikhs practice deity worship daily, engage in pointless ritual daily, you yourself treat the SGGS as a sort of Moores Almanac, others have astrology readings, we have our Hukamnama, it is all treated the same, the blasphemy that occurs within Sikhism means that instead of free thinking, learning individuals, we have descended into slavery to ritual, tradition, forget the RSS , the real enemy is within.


I think all dharmic religions should be lumped inside Hinduism, makes sense to me, at this point you the have to ask yourself if you consider Sikhism a dharmic religion.
Is Sikhism an offshoot of HInduism?, is it something new in its own right? let us not skirt around here, if Sikhism and Hinduism have that much in common that it is considered relevant to study Hindu dharma to get a better idea of Sikhism, why not just follow Hinduism?

why not just follow Hinduism?

Basically because shabad guru is required for surat to go all the way back to its origin...Sach khand. Only shabad guru can take us there...because that's where the sabd is resounding from and originating from.

Only SGGS ji inspires and directs us into how we can do this and puts so much importance to it...no more faffing around in between...it goes right to the core.

Now that's why I don't look elsewhere.

 

[Sam]

The way you can find out who Hari and Ram are, is by reading the stories that are mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib. Remember these are the central characters who are always being talked about in Guru Granth Sahib. So if you can understand these characters you can grasp the theology, spirituality and methods of practice in Guru Granth Sahib pretty well.

Who are the characters in the stories?
Here are the famous ones -
Prehlaad ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ
Dhruv ਧ੍ਰੂ
Ajamal ਅਜਾਮਲ
Sudama ਸੁਦਾਮਾ
Ahilya ਅਹਲਿਆ
Dropadi ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ
Narad ਨਾਰਦ
Ganika ਗਨਿਕਾ
Gaj ਗਜ
Bidar ਬਿਦਰ
etc

(understand the narrative, ask -) Who are these people?

(understand the theology, ask -) Who are they praying to?

(to understand spiritual practice, ask -) How are they praying?



Try to see why Guru Arjun Dev ji is called Ajooni by sikhs in Gurbani.

Ajooni means transcends joons ie not being limited to a joon.

You can definitely incarnate and be ajooni at the same time.

In Guru Granth Sahib He definitely incarnates. One of His names is Narhar ਨਰਹਰ.

Nar-man, Har- God




This is only true when they are mentioned in one breath. Ie Brahma Bishan Mahesh, together.

When they are mentioned together, they are not referring to Brahma, Bishan or Mahesh, individually...

Rather it is referring to a collection of qualities of Brahma-Bishan-Mahesh.

It is then referring to their oft-emphasized features (oft-mentioned in their particular religions that is) - Creator-Preserver-Destroyer, the three qualities.

So the phrase Brahma-Bishan-Mahesh means Creation-Preservation-Destruction. It is not referring to the individuals.

The creation-preservation-destruction of the world is under the influence of Maya.

But the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in their totality are not under the influence of Maya.

Outside of the collective phrase Brahma-Bishan-Mahesh,
The word Bishan is referring to all qualities of Creator-Preserver-Destroyer, He is the supreme consciousness, Parmatma. He creates Maya, the world.

Bishan ki maya te hoe bhin
ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥

Thank you Bhagat Singh ji. Very scholarly and enlightening explanation. I sense in your writing a mood of unity within diversity and a very broad conception of the Supreme. In fact, I get very suspicious the moment anyone tries to create differences- this is usually the case when so called leaders want to maintain a separate identity in order to lead. In God's eyes though, there is no difference.

 

[Seeker2013]

yup



well if its that clear, could you possibly see your way to a page number or a quote?

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

सुंनहु ब्रहमा बिसनु महेसु उपाए ॥

Sunnahu barahmā bisan mahes upā▫e.

From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth.


ਸੁੰਨੇ ਵਰਤੇ ਜੁਗ ਸਬਾਏ ॥

सुंने वरते जुग सबाए ॥

Sunne varṯe jug sabā▫e.

This Primal Void is pervasive throughout all the ages.

SGGS , ang no 1037

and there are other references too , but as I said you will only know if you seek the knowledge and for that you would have to read SGGS with love in your heart and for that, you will have to leave the DYI flavor behind , something that you don't seem to be wanting to do

quoted from where please thank you

from Chaupai sahib , one of the shorter banis of nitnem ! You would know only if you took some time to read even the basics of bani ! but I see you're too busy with the DYI sikhi that you have invented for yourself . You don't have shardha in guru ji, you think you're not special enuf child of god that he helps you out of situations, etc ... you think you can do things yourself when in gurbani its clear

"maanas ke kichh nahi haath, karan karaavan sarab ko naath" (nothing is in man's control, everything that happens and done is within hands of god ) (from sukhmani sahib , though I doubt u wud even verify that )

this may come as a surprise or shock but there is a little more to being a Hindu then wearing a tilak

I don't knw of any denomination within vaishanvism that doesn't have tilaks !

too late, mainstream Sikhism is fully absorbed into Hinduism, forget hari and narayan, Sikhs have our own deities now, Sikhs practice deity worship daily, engage in pointless ritual daily, you yourself treat the SGGS as a sort of Moores Almanac, others have astrology readings, we have our Hukamnama, it is all treated the same, the blasphemy that occurs within Sikhism means that instead of free thinking, learning individuals, we have descended into slavery to ritual, tradition, forget the RSS , the real enemy is within.

yes we do have our own share of rituals, but its moot IMHO to compare hukamnama with astrology reading . One is listening to instruction of guru and other is listening to a pandit who wants ur bucks !

 

[harmanpreet singh]

In Guru Granth Sahib He definitely incarnates. One of His names is Narhar ਨਰਹਰ.

Nar-man, Har- God

Bhagat ji ,Waheguru as per gurbani is Ajooni as said by Ishna ji and that is the diff bw Vaishnavism and Sikhi .


ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥
Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥
If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥
If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥
Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥
He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥
Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥
Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥
Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥
O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.


http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=1351

 

[Harry Haller]

Seekerji

You wrote
"Gurbani is clear - Brahma , vishnu and shiva are created by brahman and are rather different aspects of brahman, and since each of them are different aspect of brahman, neithr of them is complete by itself , and therfore can't be god themselves ."

I have asked you for a reference, you have given me the single line

"Sunnahu barahmā bisan mahes upā▫e.

From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth."

which actually bears little resemblance to the point you are making, where does it say that they are different aspects? where does it say neither of them is complete, and where does it say they are gods, or can't be gods?

It actually has more chance of meaning that the names that are associated with god all came from the supreme, from the one, the source, which is what I actually believe.

and there are other references too

what's the point if you do not understand them? or worse, they are misinterpreted?

but as I said you will only know if you seek the knowledge

I seek by living, if you wish to seek by playing word games that is your business

for that you would have to read SGGS with love in your heart

love in your heart for who? the only love in your heart is for yourself, the only requests you have are for yourself, as is the way with your prayers, so where is your love for your Guru? where is your acceptance?

you will have to leave the DYI flavor behind , something that you don't seem to be wanting to do

I think you mean DIY, you mean stop thinking? Well to some Gurbani may be something that is there to be dressed up in fine sheets and air conditioned rooms, it is to be taken without thinking, but I like to think about it, I am sorry if it offends you.

something that you don't seem to be wanting to do

no, I do not intend to stop thinking

from Chaupai sahib , one of the shorter banis of nitnem ! You would know only if you took some time to read even the basics of bani ! but I see you're too busy with the DYI sikhi that you have invented for yourself . You don't have shardha in guru ji, you think you're not special enuf child of god that he helps you out of situations, etc ... you think you can do things yourself when in gurbani its clear

from wikki-

"Benti Chaupai (also referred to as Chaupai Sahib) is a hymn by Guru Gobind Singh. Chaupai is the 405th Charitar of the Charitropakhyan of the Dasam Granth.[1] Chaupai Sahib begins after the 404 Chittar where two massive battles, including the later between Maha Kal and the devils, is narrated and the struggle of a goddess that was born as a result of the first battle and her quest for the acceptance of the Supreme Being, by her abandoning all other worldly desires, is illustrated."

I am not quite sure why on the one hand, Sikhism is quite clear, there is only one god, no incarnations, no junior gods, just the one, and then I read the above, which takes an opposing approach, so in your view, and given that you clearly take the time that I do not to study, in your opinion, do these goddesses and devils exist? did they exist?

"maanas ke kichh nahi haath, karan karaavan sarab ko naath" (nothing is in man's control, everything that happens and done is within hands of god ) (from sukhmani sahib , though I doubt u wud even verify that )

I myself do not quote from the SGGS, I find it blasphemous, that one would take a single line, out of context, just to suit my own ends, and then combine it with an insult, its no real problem I understand now how your Sikh mentality works, you see, if I am right, you will have to take responsibility for everything around you, and that is hard for you, hard for a lot of people, so its easier just to say, its all written, oh well, good luck with that one!

yes we do have our own share of rituals, but its moot IMHO to compare hukamnama with astrology reading . One is listening to instruction of guru and other is listening to a pandit who wants ur bucks !

oh is it now, read some of your recent posts, give it some thought and try that one again

 

[chazSingh]

Ha

Seekerji

You wrote
"Gurbani is clear - Brahma , vishnu and shiva are created by brahman and are rather different aspects of brahman, and since each of them are different aspect of brahman, neithr of them is complete by itself , and therfore can't be god themselves ."

I have asked you for a reference, you have given me the single line

"Sunnahu barahmā bisan mahes upā▫e.

From this Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth."

which actually bears little resemblance to the point you are making, where does it say that they are different aspects? where does it say neither of them is complete, and where does it say they are gods, or can't be gods?

It actually has more chance of meaning that the names that are associated with god all came from the supreme, from the one, the source, which is what I actually believe.



what's the point if you do not understand them? or worse, they are misinterpreted?



I seek by living, if you wish to seek by playing word games that is your business



love in your heart for who? the only love in your heart is for yourself, the only requests you have are for yourself, as is the way with your prayers, so where is your love for your Guru? where is your acceptance?


I think you mean DIY, you mean stop thinking? Well to some Gurbani may be something that is there to be dressed up in fine sheets and air conditioned rooms, it is to be taken without thinking, but I like to think about it, I am sorry if it offends you.



no, I do not intend to stop thinking



from wikki-

"Benti Chaupai (also referred to as Chaupai Sahib) is a hymn by Guru Gobind Singh. Chaupai is the 405th Charitar of the Charitropakhyan of the Dasam Granth.[1] Chaupai Sahib begins after the 404 Chittar where two massive battles, including the later between Maha Kal and the devils, is narrated and the struggle of a goddess that was born as a result of the first battle and her quest for the acceptance of the Supreme Being, by her abandoning all other worldly desires, is illustrated."

I am not quite sure why on the one hand, Sikhism is quite clear, there is only one god, no incarnations, no junior gods, just the one, and then I read the above, which takes an opposing approach, so in your view, and given that you clearly take the time that I do not to study, in your opinion, do these goddesses and devils exist? did they exist?



I myself do not quote from the SGGS, I find it blasphemous, that one would take a single line, out of context, just to suit my own ends, and then combine it with an insult, its no real problem I understand now how your Sikh mentality works, you see, if I am right, you will have to take responsibility for everything around you, and that is hard for you, hard for a lot of people, so its easier just to say, its all written, oh well, good luck with that one!



oh is it now, read some of your recent posts, give it some thought and try that one again

Harry ji.

I think the reason why people find it difficult to take your views seriously is that you try to give your views of Sikhi based on actually not reading much of SGGS ji.

Whether people mistranslated or not...they have tried to dive in and have their own experience of it...which is commendable.

You cannot give your views of Sikhi without reading SGGS ji...SGGS ji is Sikhi. ..

You're basically the kid at school who tries to give a book review by reading the back cover..

The kid who read and gaVe their opinion...feelings and experiences at least is respective of the book...and it's author...

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji.

Chazji....

I think the reason why people find it difficult to take your views seriously is that you try to give your views of Sikhi based on actually not reading much of SGGS ji.

not at all, people have difficulty taking my views seriously because I tend not to be serious.

Whether people mistranslated or not...they have tried to dive in and have their own experience of it...which is commendable.

Well, I don't think it is particularly commendable to take whatever meaning you wish out of Bani and then portray yourself as some sort of expert on Sikhi, just because you have managed to find a few badly translated words that suit your agenda.

You cannot give your views of Sikhi without reading SGGS ji...SGGS ji is Sikhi. ..

your posts indicate that you find meaning and wisdom through meditation and word repetition, I find mine through interaction, can you please explain why it is that you can find this meaning and wisdom through meditation without reading the SGGS? if you can, then you will have answered your own question.

You're basically the kid at school who tries to give a book review by reading the back cover..

nope, what I did was read the authors summary of the book, the first ten lines, which I do my best to live by. It is also my own personal view that unless one embraces Mool Mantra, and really understands it, one has no chance of understanding the rest of the SGGS. The knowledge and wisdom contained in those first ten lines set the mood and the nature of the rest, it is your litmus test, it is everything.

The kid who read and gaVe their opinion...feelings and experiences at least is respective of the book...and it's author...

well pardon me if I do not prostrate myself in front of people just because they have an ability in finding known names in the SGGS!

No, Chazji, I do not spend much time in reading the SGGS, but then I have a different agenda to you, I am just a student with a lot of questions, and I will always be the first to shout at emperors with no clothes on.

 

[chazSingh]

Chazji....



not at all, people have difficulty taking my views seriously because I tend not to be serious.


Well, I don't think it is particularly commendable to take whatever meaning you wish out of Bani and then portray yourself as some sort of expert on Sikhi, just because you have managed to find a few badly translated words that suit your agenda.



your posts indicate that you find meaning and wisdom through meditation and word repetition, I find mine through interaction, can you please explain why it is that you can find this meaning and wisdom through meditation without reading the SGGS? if you can, then you will have answered your own question.



nope, what I did was read the authors summary of the book, the first ten lines, which I do my best to live by. It is also my own personal view that unless one embraces Mool Mantra, and really understands it, one has no chance of understanding the rest of the SGGS. The knowledge and wisdom contained in those first ten lines set the mood and the nature of the rest, it is your litmus test, it is everything.



well pardon me if I do not prostrate myself in front of people just because they have an ability in finding known names in the SGGS!

No, Chazji, I do not spend much time in reading the SGGS, but then I have a different agenda to you, I am just a student with a lot of questions, and I will always be the first to shout at emperors with no clothes on.

If you have a lot of questions the answers are in the remainder of SGGS ji.

It is the rest of SGGS ji that helps you understand mool manter. ... not the other way round...

 

[Harry Haller]

If you have a lot of questions the answers are in the remainder of SGGS ji.

It is the rest of SGGS ji that helps you understand mool manter. ... not the other way round...

does Mool Manter need help in understanding? it seems quite simple and basic to me

 

[chazSingh]

does Mool Manter need help in understanding? it seems quite simple and basic to me

You said you're a student with a lot of questions...therefore you can't really have travelled the depths of mool manter...even if you think it has a simple meaning...

I.ve known the mool manter since the age of 3....only when I opened the rest of SGGS ji from age of 24 onwrds did I feel I started travelling through the layers...

The rest of SGGS ji would not be required if the mool manter was just the simple explanation as offered on most mool manter posters.

Dive in harry ji... you don't need to believe or follow what I talk about or practice...take your own awakening experience through it.. then tell us what you find.....

 

[Seeker2013]

I am not quite sure why on the one hand, Sikhism is quite clear, there is only one god, no incarnations, no junior gods, just the one, and then I read the above, which takes an opposing approach, so in your view, and given that you clearly take the time that I do not to study, in your opinion, do these goddesses and devils exist? did they exist?

Sikhism has said always there is one god. Sikhi of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh are not different .
Just the language and style of bani is different , but the essence is same !

Guru Gobind Singh ji has written extensively on hindu mythology , including chaubis avatar of vishnu (24
avatars of vishnu ) , but does that mean vishnu is god itself ? NOPE ! god is one , akal purakh ?

so who is vishnu ?? (ok so I will do some cherry picking again )

ਢਿਗ ਬਿਸਨ ਬੁਲਾਇ ਲਯੋ ਅਪਨੋ ॥ ਇਹ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਸੁਪਨੇ ॥੩॥
ढिग बिसन बुलाइ लयो अपनो ॥ इह भाति कहियो तिह को सुपने ॥३॥
He called Vishnu in His presence and said to him in this way.3.

ਤੋਟਕ ॥
तोटक ॥
TOTAK STNZA

ਸੁ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਤੁਮ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸਰੂਪ ਧਰੋ ॥ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਕੋ ਚਲਿ ਨਾਸ ਕਰੋ ॥
सु कहियो तुम रुद्र सरूप धरो ॥ जगजीवन को चलि नास करो ॥
The destroyer Lord asked Vishnu to manifest himself as Rudra in order to destroy the beings of the world;

(Dasam Granth, page 468)

ਬਿਸਨ ਚੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਹਾ ਬੁਲਾਈ ॥ ਧਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਧਨੰਤਰ ਜਾਈ ॥
बिसन चंद को कहा बुलाई ॥ धर अवतार धनंतर जाई ॥
Vishnu was called by the Supreme Lord and ordered to manifest himself in the form of Dhanwantar.

(Dasam Granth page 498)

ਤਬ ਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬੁਲਾਇ ॥ ਬਿਸਨੈ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥
तब काल पुरख बुलाइ ॥ बिसनै कहियो समझाइ ॥
Then the Immanent Lord called Vishnu and giving instruction to him, told, him that,

ਸਸਿ ਕੋ ਧਰਹੁ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਆਨ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੭॥
ससि को धरहु अवतार ॥ नही आन बात बिचार ॥७॥
Without taking any other thing into consideration, he should manifest himself as Chandra incarnation.7.

ਤਬ ਬਿਸਨ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਕਹੀ ਬਨਾਇ ॥
तब बिसन सीस निवाइ ॥ करि जोरि कही बनाइ ॥
Then Vishnu bowing his head said with folded hands,

ਧਰਿਹੋਂ ਦਿਨਾਂਤ ਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਜਗਤ ਕੁਮਾਰ ॥੮॥
धरिहों दिनांत वतार ॥ जित होइ जगत कुमार ॥८॥
I shall assume the form of Chandra incarnation, so that the beauty may prosper in the world.8.

(Dasam granth,page 505)

It appears even vishnu himself needs permission of a higher entity to take an avatar

I am an employee. I have a reporting manager who himself reports to director .
Now if I were to start saying my manager himself is the greatest in whole company just because I felt he was supreme , or if the manager himself had the same delusion , then could it be fact ?
nope

same way, Gurbani says there are lesser god , or maybe gurbani is using metaphor language . I am not sure, its debatable !
but still point is "worship the one"

Some say Guru Gobind Singh worshipped durga also , although he has cleared

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥
O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥
तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥
Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥
तैथों ही बलु क्रिसन लै कंसु केसी पकड़ि गिराइआ ॥
Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair.


All avatars , incarnations while doing their earthly duties have only drawn their power from god , although after being famous , they got ego and forgot him is another story

 

[Harry Haller]

You said you're a student with a lot of questions...therefore you can't really have travelled the depths of mool manter...even if you think it has a simple meaning...

how do you know? how can you possibly make a statement like that? how can I possibly say that your meditation is a complete waste of time, the truth is we can't.

I.ve known the mool manter since the age of 3....

sorry I did not realise this was a competition..

....only when I opened the rest of SGGS ji from age of 24 onwrds did I feel I started travelling through the layers...

ok, big shock time, we are all different Chazji, we all connect differently, if at all we connect at all.

The rest of SGGS ji would not be required if the mool manter was just the simple explanation as offered on most mool manter posters.

I never said that, what I actually said was

"
nope, what I did was read the authors summary of the book, the first ten lines, which I do my best to live by. It is also my own personal view that unless one embraces Mool Mantra, and really understands it, one has no chance of understanding the rest of the SGGS. The knowledge and wisdom contained in those first ten lines set the mood and the nature of the rest, it is your litmus test, it is everything. "

it does help if posts that are being replied to are read properly....

 

[Harry Haller]

Sikhism has said always there is one god. Sikhi of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh are not different .
Just the language and style of bani is different , but the essence is same !

agreed!

Guru Gobind Singh ji has written extensively on hindu mythology , including chaubis avatar of vishnu (24
avatars of vishnu ) , but does that mean vishnu is god itself ? NOPE ! god is one , akal purakh ?

well, we don't know for sure do we, I find it hard to attribute some of the racier writings to him, and to be honest, if we invoke the litmus test, why would the first Guru distance himself from Hinduism, only for the tenth to embrace it?

so who is vishnu ?? (ok so I will do some cherry picking again )

a deity

ਢਿਗ ਬਿਸਨ ਬੁਲਾਇ ਲਯੋ ਅਪਨੋ ॥ ਇਹ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਤਿਹ ਕੋ ਸੁਪਨੇ ॥੩॥
ढिग बिसन बुलाइ लयो अपनो ॥ इह भाति कहियो तिह को सुपने ॥३॥
He called Vishnu in His presence and said to him in this way.3.

ਤੋਟਕ ॥
तोटक ॥
TOTAK STNZA

ਸੁ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਤੁਮ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸਰੂਪ ਧਰੋ ॥ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਕੋ ਚਲਿ ਨਾਸ ਕਰੋ ॥
सु कहियो तुम रुद्र सरूप धरो ॥ जगजीवन को चलि नास करो ॥
The destroyer Lord asked Vishnu to manifest himself as Rudra in order to destroy the beings of the world;

(Dasam Granth, page 468)

ਬਿਸਨ ਚੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਹਾ ਬੁਲਾਈ ॥ ਧਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਧਨੰਤਰ ਜਾਈ ॥
बिसन चंद को कहा बुलाई ॥ धर अवतार धनंतर जाई ॥
Vishnu was called by the Supreme Lord and ordered to manifest himself in the form of Dhanwantar.

(Dasam Granth page 498)

ਤਬ ਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬੁਲਾਇ ॥ ਬਿਸਨੈ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥
तब काल पुरख बुलाइ ॥ बिसनै कहियो समझाइ ॥
Then the Immanent Lord called Vishnu and giving instruction to him, told, him that,

ਸਸਿ ਕੋ ਧਰਹੁ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਹੀ ਆਨ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੭॥
ससि को धरहु अवतार ॥ नही आन बात बिचार ॥७॥
Without taking any other thing into consideration, he should manifest himself as Chandra incarnation.7.

ਤਬ ਬਿਸਨ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਕਹੀ ਬਨਾਇ ॥
तब बिसन सीस निवाइ ॥ करि जोरि कही बनाइ ॥
Then Vishnu bowing his head said with folded hands,

ਧਰਿਹੋਂ ਦਿਨਾਂਤ ਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਜਗਤ ਕੁਮਾਰ ॥੮॥
धरिहों दिनांत वतार ॥ जित होइ जगत कुमार ॥८॥
I shall assume the form of Chandra incarnation, so that the beauty may prosper in the world.8.

(Dasam granth,page 505)

thank you for the documented quote, I am not going to get into validity of the DG here, but I have difficulty accepting the above words as writings of the tenth Guru.

It appears even vishnu himself needs permission of a higher entity to take an avatar

I am an employee. I have a reporting manager who himself reports to director .
Now if I were to start saying my manager himself is the greatest in whole company just because I felt he was supreme , or if the manager himself had the same delusion , then could it be fact ?
nope

same way, Gurbani says there are lesser god

so Gurbani says there is only one God, but confirms there are lesser gods?

I am not sure, its debatable !
but still point is "worship the one"

can you worship the one in Sikhism through a lesser god?

Some say Guru Gobind Singh worshipped durga also , although he has cleared

why would he do that if he was a Sikh?

All avatars , incarnations while doing their earthly duties have only drawn their power from god , although after being famous , they got ego and forgot him is another story

so you do believe in lesser gods, deities, avatars incarnations?

do you believe Krishna existed?

 

[Seeker2013]

well, we don't know for sure do we, I find it hard to attribute some of the racier writings to him, and to be honest, if we invoke the litmus test, why would the first Guru distance himself from Hinduism, only for the tenth to embrace it?

Guru Nanak ji never distanced himself from hinduism or islam ! He distanced himself from the hypocrisy and superstitions of both religions. If he did boycott both hinduism and islam , he wouldn't have visited hindu temples and mecca ! What he said was rather than the outer rituals (shaving heads, wearing garlands, putting a dhoti , vegetarianism just for looking pious to people, caste system , circumcision, praying in only one direction etc ) try to understand the essence ! And gurbani is all about essence !
Gurbani tells what a true pandit is, what a true vaishnu is , what a true muslim is , what a true mullah is ! (and for my sake , please don't ask me to quote, I don't wish to open another 5 tabs in my chrome and hang the browser. I am sure you can find it online yourself with a few clicks )

whenever you feel like browsing gurbani , you can use http://www.srigranth.org (it has english features too)

a deity

A minister , you can say that also !

thank you for the documented quote, I am not going to get into validity of the DG here, but I have difficulty accepting the above words as writings of the tenth Guru.

Try to get above controversies, if you seek controversies you will get multitudes of them ! did Guru Gobind Singh write the dasam granth, did bhagats in SGGS really were vishnu worshippers, did man really land on the moon , Is Obama a muslim ?!!!!

One thing that is crystal clear in both SGGS and DG is that bhavana / sharda / faith in him and above ALL "love for him" is most important thing . we can keep the cheesy controversies aside !

so Gurbani says there is only one God, but confirms there are lesser gods?

There's no such thing as a "lesser god" , they're mere celestial beings as per gurbani, something like angels in abrahamic religions.
They're mentioned in gurbani over and over again. But as I said, whether these beings are metaphorical or actual, is debatable !

In Japu ji sahib (the prime bani in sikhi ), Guru Nanak while describing the whole universe praising and trying to describe god says so :

ਆਖਹਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਤੈ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ॥

आखहि गोपी तै गोविंद ॥

Ākẖahi gopī ṯai govinḏ.

The Gopis and Krishna speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਈਸਰ ਆਖਹਿ ਸਿਧ ॥

आखहि ईसर आखहि सिध ॥

Ākẖahi īsar ākẖahi siḏẖ.

Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਕੀਤੇ ਬੁਧ ॥

आखहि केते कीते बुध ॥

Ākẖahi keṯe kīṯe buḏẖ.

The many created Buddhas speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਦਾਨਵ ਆਖਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥

आखहि दानव आखहि देव ॥

Ākẖahi ḏānav ākẖahi ḏev.

The demons speak, the demi-gods speak.


ਆਖਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵ ॥

आखहि सुरि नर मुनि जन सेव ॥

Ākẖahi sur nar mun jan sev.

The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak.


ਕੇਤੇ ਆਖਹਿ ਆਖਣਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥

केते आखहि आखणि पाहि ॥

Keṯe ākẖahi ākẖaṇ pāhi.

Many speak and try to describe Him.


ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥

केते कहि कहि उठि उठि जाहि ॥

Keṯe kahi kahi uṯẖ uṯẖ jāhi.

Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed.


So even if krishnas, vishnus, brahmas , <insert another innumerable deities here> exist, they're all subjects of the one lord king : Waheguru alias Brahman alias Allah alias God . Some clarity now ? and this is not my view. This is gurbani's view.

can you worship the one in Sikhism through a lesser god?

Don't know ! But as I said bhaavna (feeling inside ) is most important ! Guru Amar das ji started as a devi worshipper , Many bhagats themselves might have started as idolaters , deity worshippers , considering that india is a polytheistic country (or should we say garb of polytheism and monotheism inside ) , many bhagats might have started with deities but in the end realized their deity is just one facet of THE ONE.

why would he do that if he was a Sikh?

He wasn't a durga worshipper, but we have to remember the times he lived in . Durga was widely worshipped by the persecuted (hindus) then ! so he tried to uplift their spirits with "beer ras" (warrior spirit) by explaining things in their own language , but he has clarified that even durga is one of the creations of almight to .
Durga is not anything by herself. As such is not worthy of worship .

so you do believe in lesser gods, deities, avatars incarnations?

Gurbani mentions them ! at more than one place, but nowhere we're told to worship them . Infact it is said clearly

[more here http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Search&Param=english&SearchData=gods ]

do you believe Krishna existed?

its irrelevant to us TBH whether he existed for real or is simply a mythological character some people made up a few thousand years ago !
Gurbani mentions him at places. but again NO worship. They're mere vessels . Ocean is only the One waheguru .


And finally don't be enticed by gods or deities . Guru says

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥

गुर सेवा ते भगति कमाई ॥

Gur sevā ṯe bẖagaṯ kamā▫ī.

Serving the Guru, devotional worship is practiced.


ਤਬ ਇਹ ਮਾਨਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥

तब इह मानस देही पाई ॥

Ŧab ih mānas ḏehī pā▫ī.

Then, this human body is obtained.


ਇਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥

इस देही कउ सिमरहि देव ॥

Is ḏehī ka▫o simrahi ḏev.

Even the gods long for this human body.


ਸੋ ਦੇਹੀ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥

सो देही भजु हरि की सेव ॥१॥

So ḏehī bẖaj har kī sev. ||1||

So vibrate that human body, and think of serving the Lord. ||1||

So , even the gods long for this human birth , so that they may utter god's name and free themselves from the cycle of birth and death !

And lastly, I would just say that you need to cultivate some sharda (faith for him) in your heart. Your all posts indicate a sense of "Ok yeah I respect him and all, but in real life he's not going to do anything for me, only I wud do things for me" . He acts through you ! and sometimes through someone else to help you in all your difficulties in life.

I would suggest take some time to recite sukhmani sahib with translations. It will really give you peace of mind . And also help with the duality screaming . May Waheguru bless you,

 

[Harry Haller]

good post, good reply, I will do the justice of a proper reply later

 

[Harry Haller]

Guru Nanak ji never distanced himself from hinduism or islam ! He distanced himself from the hypocrisy and superstitions of both religions.

yes, he did, absolutely right, however, as hypocrisy, ritual and superstition form a large part of any religion, by default, there needed to be some distance, some obvious distinction between Sikhism and other religions that were heavy on these

If he did boycott both hinduism and islam , he wouldn't have visited hindu temples and mecca !

I think what he was boycotting was the humanisation of religion

What he said was rather than the outer rituals (shaving heads, wearing garlands, putting a dhoti , vegetarianism just for looking pious to people, caste system , circumcision, praying in only one direction etc ) try to understand the essence ! And gurbani is all about essence !

again I absolutely agree

Gurbani tells what a true pandit is, what a true vaishnu is , what a true muslim is , what a true mullah is ! (and for my sake , please don't ask me to quote, I don't wish to open another 5 tabs in my chrome and hang the browser. I am sure you can find it online yourself with a few clicks )

No, I only ask you to quote when I don't agree with you and you have your opinions dressed up as fact, but then applies equally to everyone including me.

A minister , you can say that also !

a deity is a deity, in this context I am talking about using images or matter to personify God.

Try to get above controversies,

I am afraid the controversy is where the action is

if you seek controversies you will get multitudes of them !

we have different takes and are at different stages in our lives, I am at the stage where I question everything, I have no faith at all in anything, I trust nothing, all I know is what I have learned over the last 46 years, but what I do know, and what I do put my faith in, is sacrosanct, therefore it needs to be true.

did Guru Gobind Singh write the dasam granth

well, if he did it changes a lot, how can it not?

did bhagats in SGGS really were vishnu worshippers

well we can say at least one was....

did man really land on the moon

important question, it raises trust issues, trust is very important, as is confidence, confidence in what you believe in

Is Obama a muslim ?!!!!

that one is pretty irrelevant.

One thing that is crystal clear in both SGGS and DG is that bhavana / sharda / faith in him and above ALL "love for him" is most important thing . we can keep the cheesy controversies aside !

the following content:-

“je te bidh ta mo man lina aan milai kuwar ke dina Bhant bhant te tahe rijhayo char pehar nis bhog kamayo(7) Kel karat nis sakal bihani karat kaam ki kot kahani Bhant bhant ke aasan kar ke kaam tapt sabh hi keh har ke(8) Bhor bhayo rajni jab gayi bhant bhant chirayi chuchai Samrit bhaye dou kel kamate eke sej soye ras maate(9) Sowat tryag nindi jab jage mil kar kel karan tab lage Aasan karat anek parkara kokun te das gun bistara”(10) (charitar 289)

“sri triya raaj mati te nama ,naino naam jatt ki bama Sahar jahanbad base we ,darbwan doot maan rahe we Sauda karan tahi pathayo, ek rupaya haath diwayo Ek huto the thaan ko jogi, nangi kar nari tin bhogi” (charitar 45)

There was a female named raj mati, wife of jatt named naino. She lived in jahanbad and was known to be very beautiful and rich. Jatt send her to fetch something and gave her a rupee. There used to live a jogi, who stripped her naked and had sex with her.

Dohara “kazi ik Kashmir main taa ki istri ek Jantar mantar ar basikar janat huti anek”

There was a kazi in Kashmir who had a wife who knew lot of jantar, mantar.

Chaupai Adal Muhammd naam tavan pati , nyay shastar ke bich nipun ati Nuram bibi naar tavan ghar , jaa ke saath ramat niti att nar Tin ik jat bhaye rati thani , kachu kazi ki kaan na mani Hazrat aaye tabe lag gayo ,mitre baadh khaath tar layo”

Her husbands name was Adil Mohammad and was expert in imparting justice.She had a wife nuram bibi with whom lot of men used to make love. She made up her mind to have intercourse with a jat and didn’t give a damn about kazi.When she was having sex ,kazi came back, she tied jat and hid her under her bed.

Dohara “aap musaf bachat bhai jat khaat tar baadh Kazi ko mohit kiya baan drigan ke saadh”

She starting reading quran with jat under her bed and seduced kazi by shooting arrows with her eyes.

Chaupai “khaat upper kazi baithayo , kaamkel taa so upjayao Taa ki kaan na aanat mane, moorakh chot chatakan gane”

She made kazi sit on the bed and without caring about jat under her bed, started having sexual intercourse with kazi. Stupid jat started counting the bang-bang from beneath the bed.

Dohara “kaam bhog kar kaziya dina bahur utthai Khaat tare te kaad kar jat layo urr layi”

After having sex with kazi she took jat from beneath the bed and embraced him.

Chaupai “sun le meet bachan te mera, main kazi ko buhat labera Ta keh bahu jutiyan so mara, ta te utthat tadako bhara”(charitar 46)

Then she said, my friend! Listen , I gave kazi a solid beating with jutti that’s why there was a loud voice of banging.

“tab mohan nij grah chal aayo, adhik anupam bhes banayo Takiyan ki chapti urvashi, mom maar aasan so kasi Bhik ko lep tavan mo kiyo, shiv rijhaye maang kar liyo Jaa ke ang tavan so laage, taa ke le pranan jam bhage Tab lo naar gayi woh aayi, kamatur hai ke laptayi Ta ko bhed kachu na janyo, urbas ko kar purakh pachanyo Taa so bhog adhik jab kino, man mai maan adhik sukh lino Bhik ke chade mat tab bhayi, jam ked ham bikhe chal gayi”(charitar 109)

Then mohan came back to his house, urvashi then made a fake {censored}(vibrator) and tightened it on her genital with wax. She coated that vibrator with poison and got a boon from shiv that who so ever comes in contact with that vibrator ,yam should take his life(die).In the mean time the other woman came, she was so much overcome by lust that she could not find that urvashi is not a man and started having sex to her hearts content and died because of poison.

“bhej sahchari tahi bulayo nij sadan Kaam bhog te sang kariyo triya chhori mann Bhant bhant ke aasan laye sudhar ke Ho chumban lingan kiye mat kok bichari ke”(charitar 119)


now to you the above might be a cheesy controversy, but to me it does not sit well, in fact, I find it hard to believe that the tenth master wrote the above, how can I ignore it? so the search is for the truth, always for the truth.

There's no such thing as a "lesser god" , they're mere celestial beings as per gurbani, something like angels in abrahamic religions.

so , just to confirm it is your belief that there are angels or celestial beings in Sikhism

They're mentioned in gurbani over and over again. But as I said, whether these beings are metaphorical or actual, is debatable !

this I do not understand, on the one hand, the subject is debatable, but your first comment gives the impression there is no debate, which is it?

So even if krishnas, vishnus, brahmas , <insert another innumerable deities here> exist, they're all subjects of the one lord king : Waheguru alias Brahman alias Allah alias God . Some clarity now ? and this is not my view. This is gurbani's view.

is it important that we know whether they existed or not? does it matter?

Don't know ! But as I said bhaavna (feeling inside ) is most important ! Guru Amar das ji started as a devi worshipper , Many bhagats themselves might have started as idolaters , deity worshippers , considering that india is a polytheistic country (or should we say garb of polytheism and monotheism inside ) , many bhagats might have started with deities but in the end realized their deity is just one facet of THE ONE.

maybe they realised everything was a facet of the one,

He wasn't a durga worshipper, but we have to remember the times he lived in . Durga was widely worshipped by the persecuted (hindus) then ! so he tried to uplift their spirits with "beer ras" (warrior spirit) by explaining things in their own language , but he has clarified that even durga is one of the creations of almight to .
Durga is not anything by herself. As such is not worthy of worship .

I can see the point in that, fair answer

Gurbani mentions them ! at more than one place, but nowhere we're told to worship them . Infact it is said clearly

well I did not ask whether you worshipped them, but do you believe in them?

And lastly, I would just say that you need to cultivate some sharda (faith for him) in your heart. Your all posts indicate a sense of "Ok yeah I respect him and all, but in real life he's not going to do anything for me, only I wud do things for me" . He acts through you ! and sometimes through someone else to help you in all your difficulties in life.

well, firstly its not a 'him', its an 'it', secondly, its not for me I have any interest in, I have no goals, plans or even a future, no, its others I have an interest in. I have no difficulties at all, life to me is a bad joke with plenty of funny material, I can recount some extremely sad episodes in my life, and people find it hilarious, I guess its the delivery, but bad things happen for one reason and one alone, it adds to the material.

I would suggest take some time to recite sukhmani sahib with translations. It will really give you peace of mind . And also help with the duality screaming . May Waheguru bless you,

It is the duality screaming that keeps me alive and keeps my attention on others

 

[Ishna]

Bhagat Jaidev: ~1200 [Hindu - Jayadeva was instrumental in popularizing the Dasavatara, the ten incarnations of Vishnu in another composition, Dasakritikrite.]
Bhagat Trilochan: 1269-??
Namdev: 1270-1350
Ravidas: 1376 or 1450-1520
Bhagat Sain: 1400
Bhagat Pipa: 1425
Bhagat Baini: ~1450-~1550
Bhagat Ramanand: ~1450​

All Vaishnavas.

It makes me sad that none of Meera's bhajans made it into SGGS Ji.

 

[Seeker2013]

Bhagat Jaidev: ~1200 [Hindu - Jayadeva was instrumental in popularizing the Dasavatara, the ten incarnations of Vishnu in another composition, Dasakritikrite.]
Bhagat Trilochan: 1269-??
Namdev: 1270-1350
Ravidas: 1376 or 1450-1520
Bhagat Sain: 1400
Bhagat Pipa: 1425
Bhagat Baini: ~1450-~1550
Bhagat Ramanand: ~1450​

All Vaishnavas.

It makes me sad that none of Meera's bhajans made it into SGGS Ji.

maybe becoz meera hadn't achieved enlightenment yet !
remember bani in SGGS is said to be god's word , anahad shabad.
One gyaani uncle told me it is not simple poetry but rather it was heard during the gurus/bhagats in deep meditation

 

[Ishna]

Not sure I agree with you, Seeker2013, but that's just my point of view.

 

[Seeker2013]

Not sure I agree with you, Seeker2013, but that's just my point of view.

so what do you think ? is it mere poetry that gurus made up in free time ?