Leisure What Do The Five Thieves Steal?

[Harry Haller]

Perfection is the only true goal of human endeavour .Brahm Giani ,Saint ,Bhagat is not imperfect in a Spiritual sense .
Forgive my boldness,but we are all human and it's a hard task for anyone to begin to describe a 'state of being' with any clarity,especially when that 'state of being' may personally still allude them and consequently then translating it properly requires a belief in the underlying concept, if it is not there ,a translation can be innocently skewed by personal preference when the translator has to choose which words/ phrases should be used.
Today we have an example before us ,just look at the vast difference between those we call by the name man.A superbly innovative ,exceptional talent ,visionary, tech spiritual leader ,is still called a man , the one lead by his Self a repeat rapist in Jail ,is also still called Man.How can they both be called Man, one fulfilled his potential and changed the World , the other just lost himSelf in the World

If perfection is the only true goal, I may as well give up now, Sinnerji, I have serious reservations about this, and serious worries too, only the Creator is perfect, even the Gurus were imperfect, that is because they were human beings, men, just like the rest of us, albeit hugely enlightened. They set an example that through knowing yourself, and knowing the Creator in you, you could have the physical and mental strength to deal with anything, and indeed they proved that with the way they lived their lives, and gave their lives.

The two men you cite as example are irrelevant, they could both be at completely different stages in life, the spiritual leader could be about to find himself swayed by money and women, the rapist by guilt and understanding of himself, the leader could have a mind like a cesspit, the rapist could find himself looking for something higher and have a mind like a temple, they could quite easily find their situations swapped and then who would be the rapist and who would be the leader?

The trouble with this thread is we are all tiptoeing around the subject, ok, some of us have addictions, some of us have habits, some of us do things we would not admit to anyone, some of us think things, we do not even admit to ourselves, its all too easy to blame one of thieves, 'they made me do it', no, they did not make you do it, your body wanted sensory pleasure, and it took it, the point at which that action becomes dangerous, only we know, but we do know, and it is this point that a sensory pleasure becomes a thief.

Lets say you really want a brand new Range Rover. Ask yourself why?, to impress others, to show others how much money you have, to make people envious, to enjoy the look of jealousy when you drive it, to feel pride and satisfaction that you are better than everyone else?, all these reasons are thieves, all baying for you to satisfy them, now, lets say your answer is because you adore the shape, the behind, the Jaguar Diesel engine, the way it looks so much like the original classic, the smell and the way it drives, well, if you can afford it, go out and but that car because your intentions and desires are thiefless!

Lets say you have had a wonderful meal, but you still want a huge pudding, even though you are full, well that is clearly the greed thief, the greed in this context is ok, right up until the point you are full. Then it turns into a thief,

Pride, one needs enough pride to not look like a complete buffoon, too look smart and clean and presentable was something all our Gurus took care to do, but they were all humble and all practiced the notion that ' a great man makes others feel great', you know the pride thief is around when that becomes 'a great man makes others feel small', either by dress or attitude

Sikhism, the great road ahead, the journey, to me anyway, is about having all the facets that start the thieves off, without them turning into thieves, its about control, discipline, understanding, balance, its what makes alcoholics promise never to have another drink ever ever again, because of the fear of drinking, rather than the understanding of what drink actually does to you, make your peace with your thieves, allow them to function, just do not let them overstep the mark, that is the balance of Sikhi, in my humble view

 

[Harry Haller]

Sorry veerjio but I have to again disagree, I have had a problem with lust, and the desire for oblivion all my life. Pride and ego I have no time for, no issues there, attachment I do have a problem with. So for me, I channel my lust into my wife, I try not to let attachment rule me, and I visit oblivion when I feel it is safe to, given my responsibilities. I feel no guilt or shame at anything I do, and I spend the rest of my time helping as many lifeforms as I can, in whatever way I can, and that is my life, with each day, the shutters that hold the blinding light of knowledge open a bit more, some days they close a bit more, but overall, I know a bit more this week, than I did last week, about people, about myself, about life, about the Creator, and that is my path, and I would not swap it for all the tea in china

However, I know people that are have no interest in lust, or oblivion, but they have a huge problem with pride and ego, and behave terribly, so, veerji, I do not think we all have the same passions and thieves to deal with, I think we are all different, you are like me, you are fighting a war with your thieves, but for you it will not be over till you are the last man standing, I think that is a dangerous road, my opinion only...kudihug

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

ਹਉ ਹੋਆ ਮਾਹਰੁ ਪਿੰਡ ਦਾ ਬੰਨਿ ਆਦੇ ਪੰਜਿ ਸਰੀਕ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥
हउ होआ माहरु पिंड दा बंनि आदे पंजि सरीक जीउ ॥४॥
Ha▫o ho▫ā māhar pind ḏā bann āḏe panj sarīk jī▫o. ||4||
I have become the Master of my body-village; I have taken the five rivals as prisoners. ||4||
ਹਉ ਆਇਆ ਸਾਮ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਿਹੰਡੀਆ ॥
हउ आइआ साम्है तिहंडीआ ॥
Ha▫o ā▫i▫ā sāmaiĥ ṯihandī▫ā.
I have come to Your Sanctuary.
ਪੰਜਿ ਕਿਰਸਾਣ ਮੁਜੇਰੇ ਮਿਹਡਿਆ ॥
पंजि किरसाण मुजेरे मिहडिआ ॥
Panj kirsāṇ mujere mihdi▫ā.
The five farm-hands have become my tenants;
ਕੰਨੁ ਕੋਈ ਕਢਿ ਨ ਹੰਘਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਵੁਠਾ ਘੁਘਿ ਗਿਰਾਉ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
कंनु कोई कढि न हंघई नानक वुठा घुघि गिराउ जीउ ॥५॥
Kann ko▫ī kadẖ na hangẖ▫ī Nānak vuṯẖā gẖugẖ girā▫o jī▫o. ||5||
none dare to raise their heads against me. O Guru Nanak, my village is populous and prosperous. ||5||
ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਘੁੰਮਾ ਜਾਵਦਾ ॥
हउ वारी घुमा जावदा ॥
Ha▫o vārī gẖummā jāvḏā.
I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to You.
ਇਕ ਸਾਹਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ॥
इक साहा तुधु धिआइदा ॥
Ik sāhā ṯuḏẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫iḏā.
I meditate on You continually.
ਉਜੜੁ ਥੇਹੁ ਵਸਾਇਓ ਹਉ ਤੁਧ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੬॥
उजड़ु थेहु वसाइओ हउ तुध विटहु कुरबाणु जीउ ॥६॥
Ujaṛ thehu vasā▫i▫o ha▫o ṯuḏẖ vitahu kurbāṇ jī▫o. ||6||
The village was in ruins, but You have re-populated it. I am a sacrifice to You. ||6||
ਹਰਿ ਇਠੈ ਨਿਤ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ॥
हरि इठै नित धिआइदा ॥
Har iṯẖai niṯ ḏẖi▫ā▫iḏā.
O Beloved Lord, I meditate on You continually;
ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦੀ ਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥
मनि चिंदी सो फलु पाइदा ॥
Man cẖinḏī so fal pā▫iḏā.
I obtain the fruits of my mind's desires.
ਸਭੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਿਅਨੁ ਲਾਹੀਅਨੁ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਭੁਖ ਜੀਉ ॥੭॥
सभे काज सवारिअनु लाहीअनु मन की भुख जीउ ॥७॥
Sabẖe kāj savāri▫an lāhī▫an man kī bẖukẖ jī▫o. ||7||
All my affairs are arranged, and the hunger of my mind is appeased. ||7||
ਮੈ ਛਡਿਆ ਸਭੋ ਧੰਧੜਾ ॥
मै छडिआ सभो धंधड़ा ॥
Mai cẖẖadi▫ā sabẖo ḏẖanḏẖ▫ṛā.
I have forsaken all my entanglements;
ਗੋਸਾਈ ਸੇਵੀ ਸਚੜਾ ॥
गोसाई सेवी सचड़ा ॥
Gosā▫ī sevī sacẖṛā.
I serve the True Lord of the Universe.
ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਮੈ ਪਲੈ ਬਧਾ ਛਿਕਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੮॥
नउ निधि नामु निधानु हरि मै पलै बधा छिकि जीउ ॥८॥
Na▫o niḏẖ nām niḏẖān har mai palai baḏẖā cẖẖik jī▫o. ||8||
I have firmly attached the Name, the Home of the Nine Treasures to my robe. ||8||
ਮੈ ਸੁਖੀ ਹੂੰ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
मै सुखी हूं सुखु पाइआ ॥
Mai sukẖī hūʼn sukẖ pā▫i▫ā.
I have obtained the comfort of comforts.
ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਸਾਇਆ ॥
गुरि अंतरि सबदु वसाइआ ॥
Gur anṯar sabaḏ vasā▫i▫ā.
The Guru has implanted the Word of the Shabad deep within me.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਵਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਰਿ ਕੈ ਹਥੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੯॥
सतिगुरि पुरखि विखालिआ मसतकि धरि कै हथु जीउ ॥९॥
Saṯgur purakẖ vikẖāli▫ā masṯak ḏẖar kai hath jī▫o. ||9||
The True Guru has shown me my Husband Lord; He has placed His Hand upon my forehead. ||9||
ਮੈ ਬਧੀ ਸਚੁ ਧਰਮ ਸਾਲ ਹੈ ॥
मै बधी सचु धरम साल है ॥
Mai baḏẖī sacẖ ḏẖaram sāl hai.
I have established the Temple of Truth.
ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਲਹਦਾ ਭਾਲਿ ਕੈ ॥
गुरसिखा लहदा भालि कै ॥
Gursikẖā lahḏā bẖāl kai.
I sought out the Guru's Sikhs, and brought them into it.
ਪੈਰ ਧੋਵਾ ਪਖਾ ਫੇਰਦਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਿਵਿ ਨਿਵਿ ਲਗਾ ਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੦॥
पैर धोवा पखा फेरदा तिसु निवि निवि लगा पाइ जीउ ॥१०॥
Pair ḏẖovā pakẖā ferḏā ṯis niv niv lagā pā▫e jī▫o. ||10||
I wash their feet, and wave the fan over them. Bowing low, I fall at their feet. ||10||
ਸੁਣਿ ਗਲਾ ਗੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
सुणि गला गुर पहि आइआ ॥
Suṇ galā gur pėh ā▫i▫ā.
I heard of the Guru, and so I went to Him.
ਨਾਮੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ ॥
नामु दानु इसनानु दिड़ाइआ ॥
Nām ḏān isnān ḏiṛā▫i▫ā.
He instilled within me the Naam, the goodness of charity and true cleansing.
ਸਭੁ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਸੈਸਾਰੜਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੀ ਬੇੜੀ ਚਾੜਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੧॥
सभु मुकतु होआ सैसारड़ा नानक सची बेड़ी चाड़ि जीउ ॥११॥
Sabẖ mukaṯ ho▫ā saisārṛā Nānak sacẖī beṛī cẖāṛ jī▫o. ||11||
All the world is liberated, O Guru Nanak, by embarking upon the Boat of Truth. ||11||
ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸੇਵੇ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
सभ स्रिसटि सेवे दिनु राति जीउ ॥
Sabẖ sarisat seve ḏin rāṯ jī▫o.
The whole Universe serves You, day and night.
ਦੇ ਕੰਨੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
दे कंनु सुणहु अरदासि जीउ ॥
Ḏe kann suṇhu arḏās jī▫o.
Please hear my prayer, O Dear Lord.
ਠੋਕਿ ਵਜਾਇ ਸਭ ਡਿਠੀਆ ਤੁਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਲਇਅਨੁ ਛਡਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੨॥
ठोकि वजाइ सभ डिठीआ तुसि आपे लइअनु छडाइ जीउ ॥१२॥
Ŧẖok vajā▫e sabẖ diṯẖī▫ā ṯus āpe la▫i▫an cẖẖadā▫e jī▫o. ||12||
I have thoroughly tested and seen all-You alone, by Your Pleasure, can save us. ||12||
ਹੁਣਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੋਆ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਣ ਦਾ ॥
हुणि हुकमु होआ मिहरवाण दा ॥
Huṇ hukam ho▫ā miharvān ḏā.
Now, the Merciful Lord has issued His Command.
ਪੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕਿਸੈ ਰਞਾਣਦਾ ॥
पै कोइ न किसै रञाणदा ॥
Pai ko▫e na kisai rañāṇḏā.
Let no one chase after and attack anyone else.
ਸਭ ਸੁਖਾਲੀ ਵੁਠੀਆ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ ਹਲੇਮੀ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੩॥
सभ सुखाली वुठीआ इहु होआ हलेमी राजु जीउ ॥१३॥
Sabẖ sukẖālī vuṯẖī▫ā ih ho▫ā halemī rāj jī▫o. ||13||
Let all abide in peace, under this Benevolent Rule. ||13||
ਝਿੰਮਿ ਝਿੰਮਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵਰਸਦਾ ॥
झिमि झिमि अम्रितु वरसदा ॥
Jẖimm jẖimm amriṯ varasḏā.
Softly and gently, drop by drop, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.
ਬੋਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦਾ ॥
बोलाइआ बोली खसम दा ॥
Bolā▫i▫ā bolī kẖasam ḏā.
I speak as my Lord and Master causes me to speak.
ਬਹੁ ਮਾਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਉਪਰੇ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਇਹਿ ਥਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੪॥
बहु माणु कीआ तुधु उपरे तूं आपे पाइहि थाइ जीउ ॥१४॥
Baho māṇ kī▫ā ṯuḏẖ upre ṯūʼn āpe pā▫ihi thā▫e jī▫o. ||14||
I place all my faith in You; please accept me. ||14||
ਤੇਰਿਆ ਭਗਤਾ ਭੁਖ ਸਦ ਤੇਰੀਆ ॥
तेरिआ भगता भुख सद तेरीआ ॥
Ŧeri▫ā bẖagṯā bẖukẖ saḏ ṯerī▫ā.
Your devotees are forever hungry for You.
ਹਰਿ ਲੋਚਾ ਪੂਰਨ ਮੇਰੀਆ ॥
हरि लोचा पूरन मेरीआ ॥
Har locẖā pūran merī▫ā.
O Lord, please fulfill my desires.
ਦੇਹੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਿਆ ਮੈ ਗਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੈਹੁ ਮਿਲਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੫॥
देहु दरसु सुखदातिआ मै गल विचि लैहु मिलाइ जीउ ॥१५॥
Ḏeh ḏaras sukẖ▫ḏāṯi▫ā mai gal vicẖ laihu milā▫e jī▫o. ||15||
Grant me the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, O Giver of Peace. Please, take me into Your Embrace. ||15||
ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਭਾਲਿਆ ॥
तुधु जेवडु अवरु न भालिआ ॥
Ŧuḏẖ jevad avar na bẖāli▫ā.
I have not found any other as Great as You.
ਤੂੰ ਦੀਪ ਲੋਅ ਪਇਆਲਿਆ ॥
तूं दीप लोअ पइआलिआ ॥
Ŧūʼn ḏīp lo▫a pa▫i▫āli▫ā.
You pervade the continents, the worlds and the nether regions;
ਤੂੰ ਥਾਨਿ ਥਨੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੬॥
तूं थानि थनंतरि रवि रहिआ नानक भगता सचु अधारु जीउ ॥१६॥
Ŧūʼn thān thananṯar rav rahi▫ā Nānak bẖagṯā sacẖ aḏẖār jī▫o. ||16||
You are permeating all places and interspaces. Guru Nanak: You are the True Support of Your devotees. ||16||
ਹਉ ਗੋਸਾਈ ਦਾ ਪਹਿਲਵਾਨੜਾ ॥
हउ गोसाई दा पहिलवानड़ा ॥
Ha▫o gosā▫ī ḏā pahilvānṛā.
I am a wrestler; I belong to the Lord of the World.
ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਉਚ ਦੁਮਾਲੜਾ ॥
मै गुर मिलि उच दुमालड़ा ॥
Mai gur mil ucẖ ḏumālṛā.
I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.
ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ਛਿੰਝ ਇਕਠੀਆ ਦਯੁ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੭॥
सभ होई छिंझ इकठीआ दयु बैठा वेखै आपि जीउ ॥१७॥
Sabẖ ho▫ī cẖẖinjẖ ikṯẖī▫ā ḏa▫yu baiṯẖā vekẖai āp jī▫o. ||17||
All have gathered to watch the wrestling match, and the Merciful Lord Himself is seated to behold it. ||17||
ਵਾਤ ਵਜਨਿ ਟੰਮਕ ਭੇਰੀਆ ॥
वात वजनि टमक भेरीआ ॥
vāṯ vajan tamak bẖerī▫ā.
The bugles play and the drums beat.
ਮਲ ਲਥੇ ਲੈਦੇ ਫੇਰੀਆ ॥
मल लथे लैदे फेरीआ ॥
Mal lathe laiḏe ferī▫ā.
The wrestlers enter the arena and circle around.
ਨਿਹਤੇ ਪੰਜਿ ਜੁਆਨ ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਥਾਪੀ ਦਿਤੀ ਕੰਡਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੮॥
निहते पंजि जुआन मै गुर थापी दिती कंडि जीउ ॥१८॥
Nihṯe panj ju▫ān mai gur thāpī ḏiṯī kand jī▫o. ||18||
I have thrown the five challengers to the ground, and the Guru has patted me on the back. ||18||

 

[Ambarsaria]

Sinner veer ji listen to the other two musketeers, they agree 110% on this. Forget the perfection bandwagon and see if you can prove your mantle for a relatively much smaller task and it is,

• Be the same on the outside as you are inside.
  • Great tool for killing so called thieves
  • Best sleeping pill for anyone who has trouble sleeping

Let us review the last summary line in the shabad,

ਨਿਹਤੇ ਪੰਜਿ ਜੁਆਨ ਮੈ ਗੁਰ ਥਾਪੀ ਦਿਤੀ ਕੰਡਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧੮॥
निहते पंजि जुआन मै गुर थापी दिती कंडि जीउ ॥१८॥
Nihṯe panj ju▫ān mai gur thāpī ḏiṯī kand jī▫o. ||18||
I have thrown the five challengers to the ground, and the Guru has patted me on the back. ||18||

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So the reference is about wrestling something to the ground. What do you achieve when you do that? Control and not enslavement or killing of the thieves. Meaning in a different way that you rule them and they don't rule you but they are still there. Hence the fallacy of an objective or an approach to slay or eliminate the so called five thieves or so called achieving perfection through doing so as an end in itself.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer Ji I see no bandwagon for perfection , let me provide an example.My father aswell as being the best man I know was also a master toolmaker,he used to have to work to thousandths of an inch making airplane parts,( it is easier today they use computors).He ofcourse did make scrap.Which meant jobs went wrong, but he still had to maintain a perfect attention to the task and use a pure effort towards the goal .Aim high that is what the Guru teaches us ,he never said 'just try to be as you are 'as it is only natural you are a wolf!
Another analogy that might help, I recently found out I'm long sighted ,which means I can't see what is close to me,I never wore glasses, I asked the optician how it is that my eyes now are straining to see,he told me that I was always slightly long sighted but my eyes used to account for it and adjusted for me ,but as I get older they can't do it as easily.It is the same with us and the Guru's Word, we adjust it to ourselves, instead of accepting it.

 

[Harry Haller]

brother, if this road is making you happy, then fine, it is your choice and your road, but I detect some serious flagellation going on, this flagellation may make you think you are getting closer, but it is just self torture, why change yourself, accept yourself, and be true to yourself and be a servant to creator, and creators creation, its a better path , I think, than perfection, but a musketeer has to do what a musketeer has to do...............

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer Ji

why change yourself, accept yourself,
You have to accept a change is required
and be true to yourself and be a servant to creator,
Or be a servant to your passions and desire.
and creators creation, its a better path ,I think, than perfection, QUOTE]
How is it a better path ?are they creators creation or ours?

 

[Harry Haller]

how is it a better path?
as I said we are all different, I feel my role is to serve creation, you may feel your role is to be perfect, I feel my path is better for me as I have no interest in perfection, while I am imperfect, I am still learning, and learning makes me happy, anyway this isnt an argument, this is just contradiction......................

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veer Ji

how is it a better path?as I said we are all different, I feel my role is to serve creation,How will you serve the world when you still serve your Self?
I feel my path is better for me as I have no interest in perfection, while I am imperfect, I am still learning, and learning makes me happy,Only understanding can really make you happy. Sorry times up!

 

[Harry Haller]

no it isnt, I just paid you!

My understanding, for me, is reaching the fulcrum point between serving creation and serving yourself, any deviation either side will result in asceticism or hedonism, but more importantly, that fulcrum point, the point you can ride a bicycle, the biting point when your clutch is so placed that you hold steady, neither moving forward, or slipping back, once you learn how to ride that point, I believe, you can extend that throughout your life

arguments? no this is abuse, arguments is just down the corridor

 

[BhagatSingh]

With the grace of the Guru,

Page 298, Line 2
ਮੋਹ ਮਾਨ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਬਿਨਸਿਓ ਪਾਈ ਸਰਨਿ ਦਇਆਲ ॥
मोह मान भ्रमु बिनसिओ पाई सरनि दइआल ॥
Moh mān bẖaram binsi▫o pā▫ī saran ḏa▫i▫āl.
Emotional attachment, pride and doubt are eliminated, when one takes to the Sanctuary of the Merciful Lord.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

And here the word "eliminate" is used. Binseo - Vinash - Destruction/ Elimination. (Many more verses; search "eliminate" on srigranth.org.)
So what is going on here?! Come out of the language trap. Wrestling, eliminating, imprisoning, controlling, subdueing etc are all pointing towards something else.

When I was younger, my father used to say "aim for 100% marks and you shall obtain 90%" (he actually used to say 120% and get 100%)
My response to this was, "Dad it is impossible to get 100% (120%) so why would I even go for it? I should just go for a high mark, 90%, and then reach that goal of 90%"
Now both father and son know that 100% (120%) is not realistically possible (it is in certain cases and theoretically but anyway). And both father and son know that a really intense effort is required to get high marks. The father is trying to arouse intensity in his son to get that 'A', and the son is trying to be realistic with his goals.

If the son resists his father's suggestion, he falls. If the father holds expectations, he falls.

We are the sons of our Father here. (meditate)
.
.
.
Getting rid of the ego is like becoming a master in a craft e.g. art, music, poetry. Not everyone can become a master at it. And those who do master it, can still improve further. Even though they can still improve, we call them masters or Gurus (masters of morality). They represent perfection, mastery in their fields.

If you believe they are flawed (imperfect), you will not be able to learn from them as much. Notice Guru Amar Das ji's use of the word "Gur Pura", Pura - complete, Complete Guru, Perfect Guru.

Page 28, Line 14

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
सिरीरागु महला ३ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 3.
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
हरि भगता हरि धनु रासि है गुर पूछि करहि वापारु ॥
Har bẖagṯā har ḏẖan rās hai gur pūcẖẖ karahi vāpār.
The devotees of the Lord have the Wealth and Capital of the Lord; with Guru's Advice, they carry on their trade.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
हरि नामु सलाहनि सदा सदा वखरु हरि नामु अधारु ॥
Har nām salāhan saḏā saḏā vakẖar har nām aḏẖār.
They praise the Name of the Lord forever and ever. The Name of the Lord is their Merchandise and Support.
ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਅਤੁਟੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
गुरि पूरै हरि नामु द्रिड़ाइआ हरि भगता अतुटु भंडारु ॥१॥
Gur pūrai har nām driṛ▫ā▫i▫ā har bẖagṯā aṯut bẖandār. ||1||
The Perfect Guru has implanted the Name of the Lord into the Lord's devotees; it is an Inexhaustible Treasure. ||1||
ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥
भाई रे इसु मन कउ समझाइ ॥
Bẖā▫ī re is man ka▫o samjẖā▫e.
O Siblings of Destiny, instruct your minds in this way.
ਏ ਮਨ ਆਲਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਹਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ए मन आलसु किआ करहि गुरमुखि नामु धिआइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ė man ālas ki▫ā karahi gurmukẖ nām ḏẖi▫ā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
O mind, why are you so lazy? Become Gurmukh, and meditate on the Naam. ||1||Pause||
ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਪਿਆਰੁ ਹੈ ਜੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
हरि भगति हरि का पिआरु है जे गुरमुखि करे बीचारु ॥
Har bẖagaṯ har kā pi▫ār hai je gurmukẖ kare bīcẖār.
Devotion to the Lord is love for the Lord. The Gurmukh reflects deeply and contemplates.
ਪਾਖੰਡਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਬੋਲੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
पाखंडि भगति न होवई दुबिधा बोलु खुआरु ॥
Pakẖand bẖagaṯ na hova▫ī ḏubiḏẖā bol kẖu▫ār.
Hypocrisy is not devotion-speaking words of duality leads only to misery.
ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਰਲਾਇਆ ਨਾ ਰਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
सो जनु रलाइआ ना रलै जिसु अंतरि बिबेक बीचारु ॥२॥
So jan ralā▫i▫ā nā ralai jis anṯar bibek bīcẖār. ||2||
Those humble beings who are filled with keen understanding and meditative contemplation-even though they intermingle with others, they remain distinct. ||2||
ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਆਖੀਐ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ਉਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ॥
सो सेवकु हरि आखीऐ जो हरि राखै उरि धारि ॥
So sevak har ākẖī▫ai jo har rākẖai ur ḏẖār.
Those who keep the Lord enshrined within their hearts are said to be the servants of the Lord.
ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਉਪੇ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
मनु तनु सउपे आगै धरे हउमै विचहु मारि ॥
Man ṯan sa▫upe āgai ḏẖare ha▫umai vicẖahu mār.
Placing mind and body in offering before the Lord, they conquer and eradicate egotism from within. (Maar- kill; kill haumai, the ego)
ਧਨੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਹੈ ਜਿ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਹਾਰਿ ॥੩॥
धनु गुरमुखि सो परवाणु है जि कदे न आवै हारि ॥३॥
Ḏẖan gurmukẖ so parvāṇ hai jė kaḏe na āvai hār. ||3||
Blessed and acclaimed is that Gurmukh, who shall never be defeated. ||3||
ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮੈ ਪਾਇਆ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
करमि मिलै ता पाईऐ विणु करमै पाइआ न जाइ ॥
Karam milai ṯā pā▫ī▫ai viṇ karmai pā▫i▫ā na jā▫e.
Those who receive His Grace find Him. Without His Grace, He cannot be found.
ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਤਰਸਦੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਇ ॥
लख चउरासीह तरसदे जिसु मेले सो मिलै हरि आइ ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh ṯarasḏe jis mele so milai har ā▫e.
The 8.4 million species of beings all yearn for the Lord. Those whom He unites, come to be united with the Lord.
ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੬॥੩੯॥
नानक गुरमुखि हरि पाइआ सदा हरि नामि समाइ ॥४॥६॥३९॥
Nānak gurmukẖ har pā▫i▫ā saḏā har nām samā▫e. ||4||6||39||
O Guru Nanak, the Gurmukh finds the Lord, and remains forever absorbed in the Lord's Name. ||4||6||39||
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

In other places, the same Gurus will say how imperfect they actually are.

Page 1235, Line 12
ਹਮ ਨਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਨੀਚ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਬਡ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਉਣ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥
हम नान्हे नीच तुम्हे बड साहिब कुदरति कउण बीचारा ॥
Ham nānĥe nīcẖ ṯumĥe bad sāhib kuḏraṯ ka▫uṇ bīcẖārā.
I am lowly, I am nothing at all; You are my Great Lord and Master - how can I even contemplate Your creative potency?

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਗੁਰ ਦਰਸ ਦੇਖੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰਾ ॥੮॥੧॥
मनु तनु सीतलु गुर दरस देखे नानक नामु अधारा ॥८॥१॥
Man ṯan sīṯal gur ḏaras ḏekẖe Nānak nām aḏẖārā. ||8||1||
My mind and body are cooled and soothed, gazing upon the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan. Guru Nanak takes the Support of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||8||1||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Holding the father/son viewpoint together is like walking a tight rope. Knowing you cannot achieve perfection you must strive to acheive it. With this intensity, mastery (liberation) is obtained. Understand this point.

You must strive for perfection even if you believe no such thing exists. (meditate)
.
.

See if you can begin to see the value of all views that are presented here. In my opinion, everyone here is quite wise. So accept each other's wisdom.

We all go into a pattern of replying to each other immediately without any contemplation. Contemplate on each post and shabad at least for a few days, longer if possible, they come from wise sources. Then reply.
.
.
.

I will leave you all with this shabad.

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:
ਲਲਾ ਲਪਟਿ ਬਿਖੈ ਰਸ ਰਾਤੇ ॥
लला लपटि बिखै रस राते ॥
Lalā lapat bikẖai ras rāṯe.
LALLA: People are entangled in the love of corrupt pleasures;
ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ ਮਾਤੇ ॥
अह्मबुधि माइआ मद माते ॥
Ahaʼn▫buḏẖ mā▫i▫ā maḏ māṯe.
they are drunk with the wine of egotistical intellect and Maya.
ਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਹਿ ਜਨਮਹਿ ਮਰਨਾ ॥
इआ माइआ महि जनमहि मरना ॥
I▫ā mā▫i▫ā mėh janmėh marnā.
In this Maya, they are born and die.
ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਕਰਨਾ ॥
जिउ जिउ हुकमु तिवै तिउ करना ॥
Ji▫o ji▫o hukam ṯivai ṯi▫o karnā.
People act according to the Hukam of the Lord's Command.
ਕੋਊ ਊਨ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
कोऊ ऊन न कोऊ पूरा ॥
Ko▫ū ūn na ko▫ū pūrā.
No one is perfect, and no one is imperfect.
ਕੋਊ ਸੁਘਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਮੂਰਾ ॥
कोऊ सुघरु न कोऊ मूरा ॥
Ko▫ū sugẖar na ko▫ū mūrā.
No one is wise, and no one is foolish.
ਜਿਤੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਲਗਨਾ ॥
जितु जितु लावहु तितु तितु लगना ॥
Jiṯ jiṯ lāvhu ṯiṯ ṯiṯ lagnā.
Wherever the Lord engages someone, there he is engaged.
ਨਾਨਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸਦਾ ਅਲਿਪਨਾ ॥੧੧॥
नानक ठाकुर सदा अलिपना ॥११॥
Nānak ṯẖākur saḏā alipanā. ||11||
O Guru Nanak, our Lord and Master is forever detached. ||11||

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veera your answer was much clearer than my question or own answers ,I'm pleased you understood my sentiment, but could you make sure in future that you atleast try to edit your post in a way so that it does outshine my postings. Ambarsaria Ji is a distinguished Musketeer,you are The Musketeer of Morality,Harry is good in a aloo eating competition Musketeer,I'm the Musketeer who he is actually the Scarlet Pimpernel! We seek him here,we seek him there,Those Frenchies seek him everywhere!Is he in heaven? Is he in hell?
Where is that damn elusive Pimpernel!I thank the usual suspects and humbly ask for members to join the line up.

 

[Ishna]

Bhagat ji

Wonderful response, truly a pleasure to read, as usual.

I will only say (if you will indulge me), regarding this line:

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਉਪੇ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
मनु तनु सउपे आगै धरे हउमै विचहु मारि ॥
Man ṯan sa▫upe āgai ḏẖare ha▫umai vicẖahu mār.
Placing mind and body in offering before the Lord, they conquer and eradicate egotism from within. (Maar- kill; kill haumai, the ego)

that we have recently had a discussion on the translation of the word 'haumai' and that it could be more accurately translated as 'separation' rather than ego (which is aunkar).

Here's the thread about ego and haumai if you're interested.

Ishna

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ishna ji,
Yes I have read it, and I am glad you started it.

I have always used Ego to mean a sense of separation between others and I (not that I have used this word very often). There is a false self that sits behind the eyes somewhere above the head. This false "I" is the ego.

Ego is a Latin word meaning "I", cognate with the Greek "Εγώ (Ego)" meaning "I", often used in English to mean the "self", "identity" or other related concepts.

This false self with which we associate our story, our identity, our possessions, our friends, our family, our tribe (religion, nation, culture, caste) must be killed, says Guru Amardas ji.

Ahankar (which I always call pride) is very related to Haumai (ego). Whereas, lust, greed, attachment and anger fuel the ego (anger arises to defend it; fear arises when ego is under threat hence it's role in shardha), Ahankar is when the ego has inflated with more content, story and achievements. When the ego is really big that is Ahankar.

Many people only know the ego when it is really big, which explains their (and your previous) understanding of the word ego. "I am very powerful" (sounds like pride). But ego is present at the most subtle levels. Levels as low as this: "I am" and "I know". These subtle levels are called haumei.

When Gurbani says "man toon jyot saroop hai apna mool pachan" Recognize your real self, O mind, you are a manifestation of God, It is asking the reader to see past the ego into who they actually are.

ਮਨ ਤੂੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥
मन तूं जोति सरूपु है आपणा मूलु पछाणु ॥
Man ṯūʼn joṯ sarūp hai āpṇā mūl pacẖẖāṇ.
O my mind, you are the embodiment of the Divine Light - recognize your own origin.
ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਰੰਗੁ ਮਾਣੁ ॥
मन हरि जी तेरै नालि है गुरमती रंगु माणु ॥
Man har jī ṯerai nāl hai gurmaṯī rang māṇ.
O my mind, the Dear Lord is with you; through the Guru's Teachings, enjoy His Love.
ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਤਾਂ ਸਹੁ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥
मूलु पछाणहि तां सहु जाणहि मरण जीवण की सोझी होई ॥
Mūl pacẖẖāṇėh ṯāʼn saho jāṇėh maraṇ jīvaṇ kī sojẖī ho▫ī.
Acknowledge your origin, and then you shall know your Husband Lord, and so understand death and birth.
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਤਾਂ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
गुर परसादी एको जाणहि तां दूजा भाउ न होई ॥
Gur parsādī eko jāṇėh ṯāʼn ḏūjā bẖā▫o na ho▫ī.
By Guru's Grace, know the One; then, you shall not love any other.
ਮਨਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਆਈ ਵਜੀ ਵਧਾਈ ਤਾ ਹੋਆ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥
मनि सांति आई वजी वधाई ता होआ परवाणु ॥
Man sāʼnṯ ā▫ī vajī vaḏẖā▫ī ṯā ho▫ā parvāṇ.
Peace comes to the mind, and gladness resounds; then, you shall be acclaimed.
ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮਨ ਤੂੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਅਪਣਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥੫॥
इउ कहै नानकु मन तूं जोति सरूपु है अपणा मूलु पछाणु ॥५॥
I▫o kahai Nānak man ṯūʼn joṯ sarūp hai apṇā mūl pacẖẖāṇ. ||5||
Thus says Nanak: O my mind, you are the very image of the Luminous Lord; recognize the true origin of your self. ||5||
ਪੰਨਾ 441, ਸਤਰ 3

Anyways, contemplate the posts by Spnadmin ji and Kanwaljit Singh ji on that thread, and begin to see the subtle ego in yourself as you go about your daily chores. It is very important to see it for yourself rather than simply hold it as a belief.


PS I was kind of surprised when I saw you had started that thread. It seems you did not read this post "a hundred times" as you said you would. Perhaps it will make more sense now.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/35643-a-wolfs-view-of-sikhism.html#post147678


Also check this out:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bhagats/35943-the-kabir-project-with-streaming-video.html#post148260

 

[Ishna]

Thanks for bringing that post back to my attention, Bhagat ji. I think I'm bamboozled by the different words, haumai, ego, ahankar, pride. Put that with one of the world's worst memories (my husband can attest to that!) and you've got a goldfish (which would be me. I mean, me my ego).

You've been amazingly gentle yet starkly clear with you message and I thank you.

Back to reading (less typing)! :grinningkaur:

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Isna ji God gave us four times as many fingers than eyes,it was because he knew that we would one day need them to type out our search for him .

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurfatehji

Another quite brilliant post Bhagatsinghji, although my own thoughts are somewhat different.

I put it to you all that the 5 thieves are absolutely essential. I do not draw on my skills as a scholar here (which is just as well, really..) , but more my experience in life.

The five thieves provide an earthly balance, they provide you with the gift of common sense, earthly wisdom and perception, and stop you being completely immersed in Guru. This does raise the issue, should one be completely immersed in Guru?, I would think the answer, for me anyway, is no, for that is the road to asceticism, and in any case, if you are going to spend all your time looking for enlightenment, who is going to feed the hungry, care for the poor, lend an ear to someone that needs to talk,

On this subject, why would we be looking for enlightenment anyway, surely to look for it, we must want it, and if we want it, why do we want it?, to be cleverer than others? to know the answers others do not know? In my humble view enlightenment, joining with the jyot, opening the shutters in your head to the light, whatever you want to call it, there can only be 1 possible use for this knowledge, and that is to serve the Creator better in interacting with Creation. Well, if the Creator deems me ready to gaze upon the riches of knowledge and understanding, then I am sure he will assist me not only with that, but with a task to put it to good use too.

I personally do not think pushing the boundaries of knowledge and understanding is going to educate yourself any quicker, I favour keeping your eyes and ears open for the word of Guru that exists all around you, and is speaking to you through various mediums of Creation throughout your day

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

my own thoughts are somewhat different.I put it to you all that the 5 thieves are absolutely essential.
The five thieves provide an earthly balance, they provide you with the gift of common sense, earthly wisdom and perception, and stop you being completely immersed in Guru.

Veera it's not your thoughts that matter ,what matters is the Guru's thoughts, they have been quoted and it is obvious they contradict yours.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ishna ji an attemp at answering your query from the following and I have not repeated complete Gurbani quote here,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/leisure/37128-what-do-the-five-thieves-steal-2.html#post154323

The Bhai Manmohan Singh translation doesn't mention perfection in this part of Japji Sahib:

The keyword I believe is Sidha which Dr. Khalsa has translated as the beings of spiritual perfection

ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਾ ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥੩੬॥
तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरति मति मनि बुधि ॥ तिथै घड़ीऐ सुरा सिधा की सुधि ॥३६॥
Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai suraṯ maṯ man buḏẖ. Ŧithai gẖaṛī▫ai surā siḏẖā kī suḏẖ. ||36||


The intuitive consciousness, intellect and understanding of the mind are shaped there. The consciousness of the spiritual warriors and the Siddhas, the beings of spiritual perfection, are shaped there. ||36||



ਤਿਥੈ = ਉਸ ਦਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਵਿਚ। ਘੜੀਐ = ਘੜੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ। ਸੁਰਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ = ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ। ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ = ਸਿੱਧਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਅਕਲ।

ਉਸ ਮਿਹਨਤ ਵਾਲੀ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਵਿਚ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਘੜੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, (ਭਾਵ, ਸੁਰਤ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ) ਅਤੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ। ਸਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਵਿਚ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਤੇ ਸਿੱਧਾਂ ਵਾਲੀ ਅਕਲ (ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ) ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੩੬। [FONT=&quot;]❁[/FONT]ਭਾਵ: ਗਿਆਨ-ਅਵਸਥਾ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਜਿਉਂ ਜਿਉਂ ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਇਕ ਸਾਂਝਾ ਟੱਬਰ ਦਿੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੀਵ ਖ਼ਲਕਤਿ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਨਤ (-'ਸਰਮ' ਸਿਰ 'ਤੇ ਚੁੱਕਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਦੀ ਪਹਿਲੀ ਤੰਗ-ਦਿਲੀ ਹਟ ਕੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲਤਾ ਤੇ ਉਦਾਰਤਾ ਦੀ ਘਾੜਤ ਵਿਚ ਮਨ ਨਵੇਂ ਸਿਰੇ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਘੜਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਨਵੀਂ ਜਾਗ੍ਰਤ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਸੁਰਤਿ ਉੱਚੀ ਹੋਣ ਲੱਗ ਪੈਂਦੀ ਹੈ।੩੬।
There the state of consciousness and intellect is created and embedded. One builds a higher intellect like the Sidhs (Note: see also Sidh Gosht as Sidh’s were not classed as perfection or an end goal in intellectual achievement).

Considering Prof. Sahib Singh's Teeka there is no question about incorrect translation of converting Sidh intellect into "spiritual perfection".


Thanks Ishna ji for flagging this. mundahug



Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

Veera it's not your thoughts that matter ,what matters is the Guru's thoughts, they have been quoted and it is obvious they contradict yours.

If the Guru's thoughts contradict me than I am always happy to refine my thinking, as firstly and foremost it is the Guru's voice in my head I take my direction from. I do not wish to anger anyone but my own opinion is that I am not prepared to rely on the translation of another for my own interpretation, on that basis, you can find anything to justify anything. Until the point at which I can understand fully a shabad in its native language, I am afraid I am able only to embrace what I can understand, truth, love, to have no enemies, to have no fear and to worship the Creator through service to Creation. That much I do understand, and that much I live, for the minute it is enough for me, once it is second nature, I will move on to a complete study of thieves, so I will have to accept your stand on this and bow down to your translation for the purposes of this debate.

However, my opinion is my heartfelt feeling given the limited amount I know about Gurbani and Sikh philosophy