What Does Salvation/Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ) Mean To You As A Sikh?

[Navdeep88]

Harry Ji,

I'm sorry to say this, but its water off this duck's back too. I've been severly depressed, have been in a state where I was completely defeated and suffering... couldn't muster enough to get out of my room at months at a time... I've been through that, so when someone tries to hurt me... I don't hold onto it for too long.


And Ambarsaria Ji,

I'm so sorry for what you experienced/witnessed. But you twisted and turned my comment... one only needs to look at... oh, i dont know... something called the HOLOCAUST to recognize that this kind of suffering and injustice IS everywhere. Even in Canada, looking back to Reservation schools for First Nations by the Canadian government (they make up a very large part of the prison population here as a consequence of those oppressive experiences)... to recognize that this sort of oppression is universal. Now maybe I feel this way b/c I've grown up in a multicultural society... but I feel the suffering of Sikhs, is EQUAL to the suffering of other groups of people... everybody's equally human, and these human rights violation, occuring anywhere in the world are just as bad.

Now where you got this idea that I was somehow apathetic or oblivious to the story at hand... I have no idea.

And as a result of your assumption, you flamed me pretty bad. But that's alright, over it.

Time to move onto other things in life! good luck and good bye.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

I must be getting senile...because I never seem to see when the "swords" come out...until the SPN ADMIN issues anotice in RED..oh my..i miss so much...or are those swords imaginary ones...?? god knows..why we are so ultra sensitive..and get offended so fast..SEHAJ is the most difficult trait to cultivate guys..but its the BEST...
Please be always in Sehaj...I LOVE each one...i cnat see anyone get hurt or feel hurt here..spn is our family..we all sink or swim together...Bhul Chuk maaf Jios..Gurparsaad to wards all...

 

[Ambarsaria]

Gyani Jarnail Singh ji it will be instructive to read the thread when it is brought out again (I believe it is off line right now) and see if you can help at least me. I want to manage what I wrote and the degree to which you think I was out of line. I don't ask for this to prove anything or prove me right just as a sounding board beyond the parties directly impacted. To ensure it does not re-escalate you can post your stuff privately.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Navdeep88]

Sincerest and very heavy apologies for any hurt feelings caused.... now or in the course of me having been here. I know at times I can be a little much...

now its time to head to life and take care of things... as they desperately need it... thank you and I love you all. take care.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat Singhji, Your post describes death as far as I am concerned, salvation is an understanding and requires discipline and effort, not aloofness and detachment, through this understanding, we grow, till we are enlightened and wise, rather than unfeeling and floating, we are after all meant to be householders and I think sometimes you forget that

Harry ji,
You are on the right track. Death of the mind made self is what we are looking for. This is mukti. We are looking to dissolve the mind made sense of self that is separate from the environment. It is called Haumai in Eastern Philosophy. Death of haumai is a very beautiful event for the individual.it is the best thing that can happen to them. It liberates them. When this happens the individual becomes Jivan mukt. (I think we talked about this last summer)

The understanding comes from dissolving this false sense of self. It requires discipline and effort. A discipline and effort which leads to detachment to false notions of self. Through this understanding, we grow, continue to gain enlightenment and wisdom. We become more sensitive but at the same time we are not as bothered by the experiences as a consequence of that sensitivity, namely heightened empathy and emotions. This heightened empathy is what lead Guru Arjan Dev ji to treat lepers and Guru Nanak Dev ji to hug an untouchable. The feeling of not being bothered by experiences can be witnessed in Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyrdom. In addition, two of the Guru Sahibs have known to have gone off to meditate in solitude - Guru Nanak Dev ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur ji. (haha shameless attempt to get you to meditate)

Nothing is more useful in a household than this death of mind made sense of self. In fact, it is more useful when you live with others than it is for someone who lives by themselves. It comes down to the space I was talking about with Navdeep ji.

 

[Ambarsaria]

The understanding comes from dissolving this false sense of self. It requires discipline and effort. A discipline and effort which leads to detachment to false notions of self. Through this understanding, we grow, continue to gain enlightenment and wisdom. We become more sensitive but at the same time we are not as bothered by the experiences as a consequence of that sensitivity, namely heightened empathy and emotions.

BhagatSingh veer thanks for your post. Some very interesting thoughts indeed.

One thing I have been thinking is who will know the salvation/mukti state? Is it the person who is in it or the persons that interacts with such person. As they say it is pretty hard to be "Judge and Jury".

So with the assumption that one cannot be a judge of such in oneself, when you talk or write about it how you conclude definitively what it is? It appears like Catch-22 to me! There is also an implicit danger in declaring someone to be "Mukt/receiving salvation" by others. Isn't this part of the fallacy in creation of Babeys, Sants and some Pakhandis.

Now since there is no measurable standard, one having achieved is not going to be talking about the Mukti/Salvation state. How could those who never got to Mukti/salvation so describe? For example you are describing and I was wondering if you are reading and reporting or experiencing and reporting?

This kind of Catch-22 always very well described by the often referred Monty Python's skit as follows,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Yes Ambarsaria ji,
It is only an assumption you have made, and a false one. One can judge one's progress like one can judge their progress in sports, for example. What we are talking about is no different. It is moral athleticism (coined by Sam Harris). Tiger Woods of morality will know his skill in morality as the Tiger Woods of golf knows his skill in golf. We learn and grow and we can see we are growing. It's the same with morality (and liberation).

The fallacy is in placing all Babeys and Sants in the same box and naively simplifying the whole issue into a black and white thing (thinking one is either a mukt or not). Indeed not all coaches will be able to teach you basketball equally well and not all coaches maybe good players but there are good coaches out there. Only by learning from them and measuring one's progress can one know if they are good coaches or not. This reminds me of a conversation we have previously had. Here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...ferent-to-reading-horoscope-5.html#post156920

Mukti is like basketball. One might shoot and miss but if all factors for getting the ball in to the net are in place (eg. proper form, angle, force, etc) then the ball will go into the net. A player-in-training is trying to perfect each of those factors, so he can miss less often and get the ball into the net more often. Mukti appears to me to be like that. A skilled Mukt remains in the state of mukti more often than an unskilled one. His attempts to ground himself in tough situations (similar to the attempts of Michael Jordan shooting the ball) are successful more often. Meditation is one of these factors like form, angle or force. It is not the only factor but certainly an important one. One must also listen to spiritual wisdom, contemplate spiritual texts, develop a daily discipline of waking up early and training for a Sikh specifically (like a basketball player does), get out there and do good deeds, develop certain virtues like compassion, truthfulness, etc.

Of course, grounding oneself is not the only thing a Michael Jordan of morality does. A basket ball player moves around the court dribbling the ball and dodging incoming players. Michael Jordan of morality also does other things, see the other Ashtpadees on Brahm Gyanis in Sukhmani Sahib.

For example you are describing and I was wondering if you are reading and reporting or experiencing and reporting?

Both. They are complementary.

These states of mukti are described very well in spiritual texts. They describe Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods of morality. Only one who is liberated can understand them fully but for those of us who are not at that level, we can see what we should be aiming for.

E.g. in Sukhmani Sahib this state is described. (I attest with some experience)
ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥
असटपदी ॥
Asatpaḏī.
Ashtapadee:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरलेप ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirlep.
The God-conscious being is always unattached,

ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਮਲ ਅਲੇਪ ॥
जैसे जल महि कमल अलेप ॥
Jaise jal mėh kamal alep.
as the lotus in the water remains detached.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਦੋਖ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरदोख ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirḏokẖ.
The God-conscious being is always unstained,

ਜੈਸੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕਉ ਸੋਖ ॥
जैसे सूरु सरब कउ सोख ॥
Jaise sūr sarab ka▫o sokẖ.
like the sun, which gives its comfort and warmth to all.


ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी कै द्रिसटि समानि ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏarisat samān.
The God-conscious being looks upon all alike,

ਜੈਸੇ ਰਾਜ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਲਾਗੈ ਤੁਲਿ ਪਵਾਨ ॥
जैसे राज रंक कउ लागै तुलि पवान ॥
Jaise rāj rank ka▫o lāgai ṯul pavān.
like the wind, which blows equally upon the king and the poor beggar.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਏਕ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी कै धीरजु एक ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏẖīraj ek.
The God-conscious being has a steady patience,

ਜਿਉ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਕੋਊ ਖੋਦੈ ਕੋਊ ਚੰਦਨ ਲੇਪ ॥
जिउ बसुधा कोऊ खोदै कोऊ चंदन लेप ॥
Ji▫o basuḏẖā ko▫ū kẖoḏai ko▫ū cẖanḏan lep.
like the earth, which is dug up by one, and anointed with sandal paste by another.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਇਹੈ ਗੁਨਾਉ ॥
ब्रहम गिआनी का इहै गुनाउ ॥
Barahm gi▫ānī kā ihai gunā▫o.
This is the quality of the God-conscious being:

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਵਕ ਕਾ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਉ ॥੧॥
नानक जिउ पावक का सहज सुभाउ ॥१॥
Nānak ji▫o pāvak kā sahj subẖā▫o. ||1||
O Nanak, his inherent nature is like a warming fire. ||1||

You won't know what is means to be unattached, have a steady patience or what it means to look at everyone alike until you meditate and lose your sense of self if only for a minute.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Yes Ambarsaria ji,
It is only an assumption you have made, and a false one. One can judge one's progress like one can judge their progress in sports, for example. What we are talking about is no different.

Veer BhagatSingh ji thanks for the response.

The progress part I can totally agree with you. It is the end point that I was not sure of as to what and how such end point is definable and by whom! If it is simply a state of being then it becomes wrong to seek mukti as if it is forever undefinable then its state has infinite variations. What is infinite in Sikhism, one creator!

So it comes around to the core message in SGGS of trying to understand the creator as much as you can and live accordingly without the definition or seeking of an end point. First line says creator is infinite and nothing in SGGS tries to put it in a box or makes it bounded in limits.

Any thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

The end point is death defined by those who died. :sippingcoffeemunda: Now based on how much the Gurus have died they can extrapolate to what it would look like if you died completely. E.g a completely dead person is the most patient of all.

You are right to say to not seek an end point. To seek a goal then takes one away from meditation. But then again Bhagat Kabeer used to meditate in cremation grounds.

If it is simply a state of being then it becomes wrong to seek mukti as if it is forever undefinable then its state has infinite variations. What is infinite in Sikhism, one creator!

Please clarify this point.

without the definition or seeking of an end point.

The definition sheds light on the phenomenon for those who have no experience with it. Humans need definitions to show them the way, otherwise there would be no need of Gurus or Granths. The definition is not the reality however it is only pointing to it.

 

[Ambarsaria]

If it is simply a state of being then it becomes wrong to seek mukti as if it is forever undefinable then its state has infinite variations. What is infinite in Sikhism, one creator!

Please clarify this point.

Veer BhagatSingh by your description one is always progressing in Mukti/Salvation. To me that is the same as understanding if not the complementary duality of it. You are zeroing out while understanding is maxing out without actually becoming zero or infinite.

For me Mukti is much like an achievement almost to the point that the given Gene pool has created the best example of one for time immemorial. How many such happen. Very few so the rest continue till the bloom of best again happens. In a perverse way I find like Einestein Mukt in a positive way in spite of the bomb! Many of the other greater people so too. The negative Mukts will be like Hitler, hopefully he was mukt so we don't see more like him.

What you think! For sure little extreme ramblings.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

Gurfatehji

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I am beginning to get an inkling of how this concept can be integrated in my life, I believe we live a lifetime in a day.....

I do not want to die, I like being me, I really am not keen on losing everything I have built up over the years to enter into a deathlike state, I am not sure this was the ultimate message of our Gurus. However if we take each day, and if for certain periods during the day, I die, and become nothing, I would have no objection to that, if during this period, I could behave as Bhagatji described above, then, again, I would not find that objectionable in the least.

Today is all we have Jios, and we can find Mukti today, through whatever means we can, through meditation, through Seva, through our connection with God/Creator, interaction with Creation, to love Creation, care about Creation as if it were bonded with us, as if the whole universe was in tune with us, and we could play in the Milky Way, run naked on Mars, skate round the rings of Saturn, every day we get the chance to love, and not hurt, to help, not hinder, to support, not oppose. However we are human, this state if it lasted forever, would be death for me, but to wish to achieve this state on a daily basis, as well as enjoy life, and the joys that life bring, the pleasures that exist in Creation, whether it be smelling a rose, eating a pizza, or ahem other things, enjoy them, embrace them, live every day as if it were your last, as if tomorrow did not exist, attain the balance between Mukti and Life, no I do not find this concept objectionable at all

 

[BhagatSingh]

Yes Ambarsaria ji, that sounds right.

Hmm no Hitler is not considered a Mukt by Sikh reasoning. As per his actions he will be trapped in reincarnation through many joons until he gets to the human joon in which he will have a chance again at liberation. He was a horrible moral athlete. Einstein is not a good moral athlete either though not as bad as Hitler. He had many affairs while he was married. An example of a good moral athlete would be someone like Mother Teresa who was a mother to millions. She treated the sick. I think her modern equivalent would be Amma from South India, who goes around hugging random people in their thousands and relieves their suffering. She is a huge open space.

Mukti is life. Harry ji, wonderful post but I want to clarify this point. Like how some folks are good at art, some are great scientists, there exists a group of people who are great at living a good life. In the west we don't value them as much but in the east, such people were treated with such respect that people would bow down in their presence (I'm talking about Gurus and Sants). They found out ways to live life to the fullest and found ways to create an environment for others to live it to their fullest. The concept of mukti fits into this framework. It is not opposed to life. Far from it. It is life itself when lived as good as life can be lived.

One who lives life in such a way is a good moral athlete. He rids himself of his own unnecessary suffering (which is most suffering out there) and becomes a cold fire for others and burns their suffering (See the examples in above post). This is one of the roles of a Guru or a Sant. In the west, they say "Jesus died for your sins". He did.

As you may have now figured, these moral athletes tend to have crazy fans. Lol

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Bhgat singh ji..Have you read the books that expose Mother Theresa as friend of people like the Doc of haiti who ate humans...and much more with documented evidence...

 

[Harry Haller]

I think all babas and mother Theresa's start off with best intentions, they just cannot deal with the fact that people see God through them and end up full of ego and pride

From what I know Mother Theresa had quite a harsh regime, yet had did not quite embrace it herself

 

[Archived_member15]

My dear brother Ambarsaria ji peacesignkaur

This is a fantastic idea for a thread and I am sorry that I wasn't yet an SPN'er when you created it!

In the poll, I selected: "Merging with Akal Purakh/ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ/ Timeless Creator".

I regard this as essentially the goal of the seeker in every rich spiritual tradition of note. We must aim to come to a state where we crucify our ego, die to ourselves and become one with the Will of God - live in the Divine Will.

Union of wills, union of spirit, union of love, union of Being - we become God by grace, just as he is by nature. At the same time, we become aware that our substance, the human spirit, the ground of our soul is a Divine Spark which is always at one with Creator, even when our sensuality - our lower self - wanders away from God and becomes absorbed in ego.


The best description though, that I have personally seen of salvation comes from Meister Eckhart (who else?):


"...This, then, is salvation, when we marvel at the beauty of created things and praise the beautiful providence of the Creator or when we purchase heavenly goods by our compassion for the works of creation...This path of which I have spoken is beautiful and pleasant and joyful and familiar. Let whoever has found this way seek no other and you shall find that God who is whole and entire will possess you whole and entire..."


- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328) (Sermon 30), Catholic mystic and Dominican priest



Its a very simple, earth-honouring, creation-centered view of salvation without any of the complex thinking I have just provided on Union with God - and for me that's what makes it so meaningful, profound and ultimately true.

 

[Archived_member15]

Bhgat singh ji..Have you read the books that expose Mother Theresa as friend of people like the Doc of haiti who ate humans...and much more with documented evidence...

My dear brother Gyani :sippingcoffeemunda:

Blessed Mother Theresa, in my own opinion, was a very beautiful soul, a devout and godly woman. There is a statue of her in the centre of the state of Punjab, I do believe holding her up as an exemplar of seva.

I would be wary of rumours made to discredit people. I do know that some tried to defame her by bringing up the kinds disreputable types such as the Duvalier gang in Haiti whom she "reportedly" - if you believe journalists and the late atheist thinker Christopher Hitchens - was kind too or even took donations from to feed the poor, but who are they too judge? They aren't the ones out in the streets helping starving Indians and there isn't conclusive proof of these allegations. And yet even if it were true - and I personally believe it isn't - nobody is without fault, but it certainly doesn't descredit all of the great good she did for her fellow human beings which is far more than the average person could ever achieve in a lifetime.

I will always defend the purity of that Blessed woman.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Vouthon brother thanks for the post.

Meister Eckhart one wonderful soul and much of likeness to Sikhism in his quotes that you share.

How wonderful and I re-quote from your post,

"...This, then, is salvation, when we marvel at the beauty of created things and praise the beautiful providence of the Creator or when we purchase heavenly goods by our compassion for the works of creation...This path of which I have spoken is beautiful and pleasant and joyful and familiar. Let whoever has found this way seek no other and you shall find that God who is whole and entire will possess you whole and entire..."

Regards. mundahug