What Does Term 'Excommunication' Mean In Light Of Guru Nanak's Philosophy?

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

So WHAT does the GURU...SGGS has to say.....
Listen Jios...
The Guru says..on Page 450..
Jin antar har har preet hai..te jan sugharr sianneh ram rajeh.
Jo bahron BHUL chuk Boldeh..bhee KHAREH HAR BHANNEH !!

Meaning All those who have the True Love of Har in their hearts..they are worthy of respect - sughharr sianneh wise..educated...
IF these than speak some "unbecoming" words.say the wrong words..disrespectful words....bhull chuk...STILL THEY ARE BELOVED of the HAR..and He LOVES them !!

In the context of Singh sahib Darshan Singh ragi Ji....he has a LIFE TIME of Kirtan Parchaar, Katha parchaar, Panthic SEVA, Jathedaree of Akal takhat in tumultous times post 1984, and even IF he has spoken a few words of disrespect ( I say IF becasue he hasnt - its just for arguments sake) His Past RECORD speaks volumes and he is still BELOVED of His GURU..the SGGS for whose satikaar he is fighting tooth and nail. The GURU loves him just as before. The People vested with power at the Takhats hsould have shown the magnanimity of Guru Bestowed ministership to Forgive magnamiously. See the example of GURU ARJUN JI...and Bhatts Satta Balwand Ji....when the Bhatts became annoyed with Guru ji..and went away..first Guru Ji sent his highest SIKHS...to their house to convey Guur Jis message to come back...and when this failed GURU JI WENT IN PERSON and brought them BACK!!

SEE How Guru Arjun Ji walks BAREFOOT to Bhai MOHANS CHUBARA !!! He could have easily SUMMONED bhai Mohan to appear before Him !!

BUT then we are Modern Sikhs..we have no place/thaan for the GURU..our EGOS are too big...how can we let a fly settle on our noses even for a split second !!:happysingh::happykaur::happy:

 

[palaingtha]

Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

How does excommunication help the Sikh religion? or indeed any other religion?

Since a Sikh has cutoff his hair and is being looked upon by his brethern he would like to prove that he is not alone and that there are so many who think like him. And influence other fickle minded persons to follow his footsteps. It is loss to Sikhism.

When India 's population was around 65 crores Sikh population was around 1.8 crores, whereas today India's population is around 110 crores Sikhs account for only 1.2 crores.

Like a dog trapped in a jungle in a hunter's trap would advise its friends to cut off their tails to become just like it.
We have to safeguard our count do not drop further but increase through well wishers' efforts. We need pracharaks and not patit Sikhs.

 

[palaingtha]

Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

How is excommunication supposed to be implemented - if indeed it is consistent with the Sikh Rehat Maryada? and how is it justified in terms of the Sikh Rehat Maryada, or the words of Gurbani itself? Was the Sikh Rehat Marayada followed in the context of my question?

This is the article that triggered the original questions offered by another forum member: "Action Likely Against Those who Honor Ragi"


Were Gurmat values followed in determining who is a threat to the religion in that situation or -- in recent history?

My reply:-

As per SRM any Sikh who maintains any contact/relations with a person, who was a Sikh with uncut hair has now cut his hair,would be declared as TANKHIA (guilty) and punished. That implies that, Sikhs are individually to observe the dictate of SRM and not have anything to do with such Patit Sikh/s. If every Sikh is honest enough to go by Sikh Tenets as per SRM that person in question would stand excommunicted.
Giani Jarnail Singh Ji has said in one of his threads that it is necessary to decide the excommunication of a Patit Sikh in a Sangat. It is not true. It is mentioned in SRM that a TANKHIA, I repeat a TANKHIA will have to approach a Sikh Sangat whenever he wants to seek remorse for any of his misdeed for which he has become a TANKHIA (and not when he becomes a Patit by cutting his/her hair).

 

[Parma]

I had to laugh at this one. I think if Guru Nanak was alive today I think personally he would have excommunicated the whole lot of you. No one is good enough in front of guru Nanak your all beneath him! His moral standing is the Guru Granth Sahib. So who is there to gain for Sikhism? You have all done wrong? No one is perfect so who gives anyone the right to excommunicate anyone? No one is more divine, god exists in all! Madness no one controls anyone’s faith you can excommunicate someone from your social circle but life only god has that gift, and that gift is called death. Real excommunication! Funny Thread

 

[Luckysingh]

I was going to leave a comment, but I am NOW officially excommunicated.
So, as a result Palaingtha ji, I couldn't give a monkeys about your obsession with kicking out people from your panth !!!

 

[Archived_Member16]

Madness of judging others:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/17684-madness-of-judging-others.html

I fully endorse the views of Parma Ji & Luckysingh Ji. More power to both of you indeed! No one gave such people the authority to act as the Guru! Every soul has his/her own spiritual life path to WALK, and is FREE to do so.

On the foolishness of judging others

"The act of judgement is an act of pride. It involves looking to our own store of knowledge, putting together a few facts, figures or fancies, and coming up with some sort of answer or solution to a given problem or situation. All too often it is the wrong solution or answer, and because of pride, we refuse to correct course.

Judging others is an act of monumental pride - enormous pride, stupendous pride, galling, astonishing, fantastic pride. This should be understood. When you render judgement on another, you have taken upon yourself an awesome responsibility for making the correct judgement. Because, after all, your judgement is not necessary.

All things, big and small, invite your judgement. The condition of the weather, political matters, the taste of your food, a television program - at every moment of the day, something or other is inviting your judgement of it. And so often, and so willingly, you render it, without being aware of the consequences, without taking care of the responsibilities entailed.

You judge, and then to make matters worse, you believe in your judgement. You've looked at the evidence, you've made a judgement - it must be right! There couldn't possibly be any other conclusion to arrive at but the one your've chosen, could there?

What you don't see, don't understand, is that your judgement leads to suffering - your own suffering. It does not touch the person judged; he or she is free of you and your thoughts and your judgements. You cannot change their behaviour by even a hair's breadth by your judgement." - http://www.well.com/user/queerjhd/sxonthefoolishness.htm

 

[Ambarsaria]

Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

Palaingtha ji, on a more serious matter, now let us review your translations of excerpts of SRM with tremendous liberties you are taking with your interpretations. I repeat the line in question from SRM as follows,

2.AMimRq sMskwr​

Amrit Ritual​

Note: Following a quote in the above headed section.

​

isrguMm, nVI mwr(jo is`K ho ky ieh kMm krn) dw sMg nhIN krnw[​

Having hair before and now shorn………. Not to keep company of.​

It appears you are using your own flowery extensions to the essence of what SRM instructs an Amritdhari sikh like yourself.
​

... As per SRM any Sikh who maintains any contact/relations with a person, who was a Sikh with uncut hair has now cut his hair,would be declared as TANKHIA (guilty) and punished. That implies that, Sikhs are individually to observe the dictate of SRM and not have anything to do with such Patit Sikh/s. If every Sikh is honest enough to go by Sikh Tenets as per SRM that person in question would stand excommunicted.

Veer ji I trust you are very knowledgeable and experienced and if your stated age is correct, a man of greater experience than perhaps any other active member on this board at spn.

Perhaps your choice of English words is at fault. The following do not translate into excommunication,

dw sMg nhIN krnw... Not to keep company of

Following are some ways of keeping company:

• Marrying someone
• Living with someone
• Doing a joint business with someone
• Being intimately attached to someone

Veer ji the rest is not "sMg".

Excommunication has nothing to do with this statement in the SRM.

Only context of Excommunication in SRM is the power of Akal Takhat Sahib like set ups to take action for people's Anti-Panthic and severely damaging to panth in their scope activities using the Gurmatta process.

4.gurmqw krn dI ivDI​

a) gurmqw kyvl aunHW svwlW qy hI ho skdw hY, jo is`K Drm dy mu`Fly AsUlW dI puStI leI hox, ArQwq gurU swihbwn jW gurU gRMQ swihb dI pdvI, bIV dI inrolqw, AMimRq, rihq-bihq, pMQ dI bnwvt Awid nUM kwiem r`Kx bwbq[ hor iksy iksm dy swDwrn (Dwrimk, ividAk, smwjk, pulItIkl) svwl auqy kyvl mqw ho skdw hY [

A) ieh gurmqw gurU pMQ dw cuixAw hoieAw kyvl SoRmxI jQw jW gurU-pMQ dw pRqIinD iek`T hI kr skdw hY[

Method of Adopting Gurmatta
Article XXVI
a. The Gurmatta (Holy Resolution) can only be on a subject that affects the fundamental principles of Sikh religion and for their upholding, such as the questions affecting the maintenance of the status of the Gurus or the Guru Granth Sahib or the inviolability of Guru Granth Sahib, ambrosial baptism, Sikh discipline and way of life, the identity and structural framework of the Panth. Ordinary issues of religious, educational, social or political nature can be dealt with only in a Matta. (Resolution)
b. A Gurmatta can be adopted only by a select primary Panthic group or a representative gathering of the Panth.

You sir are trying to create one man panth and personal Gurmattas while forgetting about "five pure or Panj Payare" tradition, Akal Takhat Sahib, etc.
​

I wait for your comments before any further elaboration. That is if you so choose to respond.

With respect, Sat Sri Akal.

 

[kds1980]

Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

When India 's population was around 65 crores Sikh population was around 1.8 crores, whereas today India's population is around 110 crores Sikhs account for only 1.2 crores.

.

The above is not true.The sikh population in India after independence was always between 1.9% to 2% which include Keshdhari and clean shaven .It is still between 1.9% to 2% .Nobody knows what is the exact population of Keshadharis

 

[palaingtha]

I was going to leave a comment, but I am NOW officially excommunicated.
So, as a result Palaingtha ji, I couldn't give a monkeys about your obsession with kicking out people from your panth !!!

My reply:-

Common sense says what I am referring is not my opinion but considered opinion of Sikh Panth's Representatives the SGPC which Institution has accepted the decisions of deliberations of learned Sikhs all over the world and authored and published the SRM. The Panth is Ours, who are Guru's Sikhs.
You use peculiar language to let out your displeasure.
I would ask you to go through SRM and let me know if excommunication is my obsession or it is one of the Sikh Tenets.
Why can't you be bold enough to admit your mistake and if you love Sikhism return to the fold and we will welcome you with our open arms.

 

[palaingtha]

Re: What does "excommunication" mean in light of Guru Nanak's philosophy?

The above is not true.The sikh population in India after independence was always between 1.9% to 2% which include Keshdhari and clean shaven .It is still between 1.9% to 2% .Nobody knows what is the exact population of Keshadharis

The question here is not mathemetical accuracy. It is a fact that Sikhs are diminishing in count. Sikh youth is no longer abiding by Guru Gobind Singh Jis command.

 

[Harry Haller]

Why can't you be bold enough to admit your mistake and if you love Sikhism return to the fold and we will welcome you with our open arms.

I think he was doing pretty ok before you appointed yourself chief vetter of who is able to call themselves Sikh..........

Personally I am not sure I would want to be anywhere near any fold that thought along the lines you think of.

What you are peddling is not Sikhism, it is elitism, and even then, it is elitism with your own warped views on witches, imps and caste.

Out of all the discussions I have had with many members on this forum, your viewpoint, I think, is the least Sikhi I have encountered.

 

[palaingtha]

I think he was doing pretty ok before you appointed yourself chief vetter of who is able to call themselves Sikh..........

Personally I am not sure I would want to be anywhere near any fold that thought along the lines you think of.

What you are peddling is not Sikhism, it is elitism, and even then, it is elitism with your own warped views on witches, imps and caste.

Out of all the discussions I have had with many members on this forum, your viewpoint, I think, is the least Sikhi I have encountered.

My reply:

You are nobody to judge what I am or not. How the hell are you concerned about me.
I am talking about Patit Sikhs in general. I am not discussing about an individual.
I have said WE (Not I). We means the Sikh community. SRM says one who stands before a Gur Sangat and asks for pardon the Sangat will decide.
YOU ALWAYS REPLY OUT OF CONTEXT. I have already given references from GGs on black magic and rebirths.
If you still have reservations you are not a believer of GGS.
If you or any of your supporters want to challenge me then,first reply to the QUOTATIONS I HAVE PROVIDED IN THE FORUM with page Nos. of GGS on witches and rebirth issues.
Any reply out of these subjects will be treated as RUBBISH. Be a gentleman and confine yourself to subject only. No personal attacks. If you are an honourable and honest man you will abstain frompersonal attacks.
I have no personal interest in discussing. The forum is for discussions of SIKHISM.

 

[palaingtha]

I think he was doing pretty ok before you appointed yourself chief vetter of who is able to call themselves Sikh..........

Personally I am not sure I would want to be anywhere near any fold that thought along the lines you think of.

What you are peddling is not Sikhism, it is elitism, and even then, it is elitism with your own warped views on witches, imps and caste.

Out of all the discussions I have had with many members on this forum, your viewpoint, I think, is the least Sikhi I have encountered.

My reply:-

You are nobody to judge what I am or not. How the hell are you concerned about me.
I am talking about Patit Sikhs in general. I am not discussing about an individual.
I have said WE (Not I). We means the Sikh community. SRM says one who stands before a Gur Sangat and asks for pardon the Sangat will decide.
YOU ALWAYS REPLY OUT OF CONTEXT. I have already given references from GGs on black magic and rebirths.
If you still have reservations you are not a believer of GGS.
If you or any of your supporters want to challenge me then,first reply to the QUOTATIONS I HAVE PROVIDED IN THE FORUM with page Nos. of GGS on witches and rebirth issues.
Any reply out of these subjects will be treated as RUBBISH. Be a gentleman and confine yourself to subject only. No personal attacks. If you are an honourable and honest man you will abstain from personal attacks.
I have no personal interest in discussing. The forum is for discussions of SIKHISM by all who are members and want to discuss.

 

[Harry Haller]

the srm that you love so much, states quite clearly Sikhs should not believe in magic

In any case, I am unable to converse with you any longer, as the ARM that I subscribe to forbids me from debating with bigots,

 

[palaingtha]

the srm that you love so much, states quite clearly Sikhs should not believe in magic

In any case, I am unable to converse with you any longer, as the ARM that I subscribe to forbids me from debating with bigots,

My reply:-

So do I. I have seen many people whose ego is over inflated nearly to bursting point. But not great an egoistic like you. You do not discuss on discussion forum. You are forcing other/s to accept what you believe.
Truth never succumbs and falsehood never survives.

 

[namjiwankaur]

Sat Nam _/|\_

I typically stay quiet on topics like these since I know very little about Sikhi and I'm not a Sikh (at least not yet...though maybe I am...I dunno...anyhooo). I am wondering though if maybe as an outsider I can see from a valuable perspective.

I wonder if you all wonder how Sikhi looks to outsiders?

To be honest, I think Rehat Maryada was a big mistake. Sikhi was obviously WaheGuru working to bring Light into the world in the simplest way possible. Wasn't Sikhi's main message meant to be that only by remembering the One with every breath do we find God. Only by serving creation do we realize God in all creation. Only by avoiding obsession with ritual and creed do we make room for God in our lives.

I feel sad that there is so much time spent on figuring out who is Sikh and who isn't. And the Rehat Maryada feels more and more to me like the Sikhi version of sharia.

I know the 5K are important to Sikhi and its community, for example. But to say Sikhi will be ruined if Sikhs break away from the 5K turns the 5K into something they were never meant to be. To me the 5K are just a way of identifying as Sikh and using one's body to keep one focused on the Divine. If 5K makes or breaks a Sikh, what about all the Sikhs and gurus who didn't have the 5K.

Its bad news if you think Sikhi is something that can be protected by getting rid of ppl who do something against rehat maryada or not having the 5K. What will destroy Sikhi is...forgetting Waheguru with every breath, obsessing about ritual and dress codes, creating creeds when the Sri Guru Granth Sahib says it only leads away from realizing God.

The rituals of Sikhi are supposed to come from the heart. Sikhi is not a religion of codes and creeds. Its a religion for the heart. Its not supposed to be like other religions which have a list of what makes someone a believer and someone else an unbeliever. Its supposed to be a remedy for that.

I hope Sikhs won't destroy their religion by making it what it was against in the first place.

At this point in my journey, I believe a Sikh, according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, is anyone who loves God with every breath and serves God by serving others. Every ritual a Sikh performs should be filled with love of God also. I know I am Sikh according to Sikh teachings, but it takes more to become Sikh now because of the "code book" I thought was created to help unite not to confine the Sikh community.

Blessings...
Nam Jiwan

 

[Luckysingh]

I suspect that Palaingtha is a cover name for yourself and that you are in fact a ''Head'' and pioneer of some dera.
Well if I be wrong, then sorry if I offended.
However, let me suggest that although it may be a little late in terms of your age, you can still may some juicy bucks by becoming a head of a dera or your own panth as I gather you can run the operation very smoothly.
It seems that you have ALL the qualities that are needed for running such an organization.

 

[Archived_Member16]

My Spiritual Guru Ji ( guide / master/ mentor ) is "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji", NOT the Sikh Reht Maryada ( approved & published in 1945 by S.G.P.C. ), or for that matter not the Akal Takht Jathedar!

 

[palaingtha]

Sat Nam _/|\_

I typically stay quiet on topics like these since I know very little about Sikhi and I'm not a Sikh (at least not yet...though maybe I am...I dunno...anyhooo). I am wondering though if maybe as an outsider I can see from a valuable perspective.

I wonder if you all wonder how Sikhi looks to outsiders?

To be honest, I think Rehat Maryada was a big mistake. Sikhi was obviously WaheGuru working to bring Light into the world in the simplest way possible. Wasn't Sikhi's main message meant to be that only by remembering the One with every breath do we find God. Only by serving creation do we realize God in all creation. Only by avoiding obsession with ritual and creed do we make room for God in our lives.

I feel sad that there is so much time spent on figuring out who is Sikh and who isn't. And the Rehat Maryada feels more and more to me like the Sikhi version of sharia.

I know the 5K are important to Sikhi and its community, for example. But to say Sikhi will be ruined if Sikhs break away from the 5K turns the 5K into something they were never meant to be. To me the 5K are just a way of identifying as Sikh and using one's body to keep one focused on the Divine. If 5K makes or breaks a Sikh, what about all the Sikhs and gurus who didn't have the 5K.

Its bad news if you think Sikhi is something that can be protected by getting rid of ppl who do something against rehat maryada or not having the 5K. What will destroy Sikhi is...forgetting Waheguru with every breath, obsessing about ritual and dress codes, creating creeds when the Sri Guru Granth Sahib says it only leads away from realizing God.

The rituals of Sikhi are supposed to come from the heart. Sikhi is not a religion of codes and creeds. Its a religion for the heart. Its not supposed to be like other religions which have a list of what makes someone a believer and someone else an unbeliever. Its supposed to be a remedy for that.

I hope Sikhs won't destroy their religion by making it what it was against in the first place.

At this point in my journey, I believe a Sikh, according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, is anyone who loves God with every breath and serves God by serving others. Every ritual a Sikh performs should be filled with love of God also. I know I am Sikh according to Sikh teachings, but it takes more to become Sikh now because of the "code book" I thought was created to help unite not to confine the Sikh community.

Blessings...
Nam Jiwan

My reply:-

I appreciate the way you write. You have written what you believe in.
Sikhism originated with the advent of Guru Nanak. He saw the humanity was groping in falsehood, Pandits were fleecing the ignorant people at large and the rulers spreading injustice over the ruled. Sikhism spread in many parts of India and progressed.
It culminated with the inauguration of Sikh Panth. At that juncture the Moghul Rulers were bent upon converting the whole populace of India into Islam. When other means to bring the Rulers to senses failed Guru Gobind Singh Ji took to safe guard the honour and religion of the entire populace who were Non-Muslims. The daughters of Non-Muslims were forcibly taken by Muslim Rulers
Khalsa was created and Guru said "Sawa Lakh se ek ladaoon" and "in a crowd of thousands my Sikh would be prominent with his appearance"
These were the traits we have to maintain. A Sikh without his hairs on his head is NO SIKH. For the cause of Panth's unity we have to maintain our appearance of a Sikh and live the life of a Sikh as per the teachings of our Ten Gurus or the SGG Sahib.