What Is A Real Sant?

[Archived_member15]

For me one phrase: Self-surrender.

I think that a Sant is someone who has denied self and who apprehends God in all - all things, all people, all situations, all experiences. He has God ever close to his heart, in his thoughts, on his tongue, before him, behind him, all around him. He has completely surrendered himself/herself, lost himself/herself drowned the ego and lives in a state of utter self-abandonment to the Divine Will. He perceives every moment as an ambassador of the divine will. He has humility, the crown of all the virtues, to the extent that he would rather be last of all, least of all, beneath of all. His/her only aim in life is the continual knowledge and awareness of Naam. He makes no distinctions between people because he does not see with human eyes but rather through the Single Eye of Equality. God's eye and his/her eye have become one sight, one love, one knowledge and so just like the Creator he views all with perfect impartiality. He loves his friends in God and his foes for God.
For the sant whatever God ordains is sweet. Whether joy or sadness, success or failure, he receives whatever God wills for him with joy because he is able to see God in everything that happens.

kaurhug

 

[jasbirkaleka]

Very well explained Gyani Ji.Thanks.

 

[chazSingh]

as the gurbani that Lucky ji quoted:
On p319, Guru Arjan Devji
ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾਂ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥

Jinā sās girās na visrai har nāmāʼn man manṯ.

Those who do not forget the Lord, with each breath and morsel of food, whose minds are filled with the Mantra of the Lord's Name -


ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਸੰਤੁ ॥੧॥

Ḏẖan sė se▫ī nānkā pūran so▫ī sanṯ. ||1||

they alone are blessed; O Nanak, they are the perfect Saints. ||1||


ALL OF US as described by Guru Ji are on the path to become 'SELF' realised. To return back to our TRUE SELVES, our true character, our TRUE STATE. not the state that OUR MIND has put us into.

As guru Ji states above, when we becomes Self realised, and completely pure from within (our souls are 100% pure, for our soul is made up of the same as god - it is our minds which are dirty)...we will then remember who we are and we will be the pūran so▫ī sanṯ as gurbani describes.

And when we do, we will be TRUE GURMUCK's, and operate completely in gods will, and we will want to 'WAKE' other souls up, so they can experience their TRUE SELF and GOD.

Even when we reach this state of being, we will be the most humble person in the universe.
and when we will then try to help others, the corrupted minds of the many will slander and rip into us.
But the GOD CONSCIOUS being never ever gives up.

If we are not to become 100% pure (puran Sant) as SGGS Ji is describing then what is the point of SGGS Ji?

there will be 100% pure enlightened beings amongst us, if there wasnt then Guru Ji would be failing.
I KNOW guru ji is NOT failing.

Do not go looking for a Sant, for the fake ones are out on the lookout.
Your inner guru listens to your heart, do ardaas to your inner guru...it will guide you. meditate on the shabad guru as much as you can, be good to people...and if your path dictates that you require a 100% pure souls assistance, then out of pure 'coincidence' you will bump into one...only it wont be pure coincidence...your inner guru would have arranged the meeting.

 

[arshi]

My first response to this thread (Post 2) was marred by unwanted characters/phonetics. The Gurmakhi characters got chewed up in the process. This is just an attempt to put it right.

ਮੰਤ੍ਰੰ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੰ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਪੂਰਨਹ॥
MantraN raam raam naamaN Dha-yaana sarbatar poornah.

One who recites the Lord’s Name and links the inner consciousness through concentration (and realisation) that He (the Lord) is an all pervading Entity.

ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਮ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖੰ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਣਹ॥
Ga-yaana sam dukh sukhaN jugat nirmal nirvairneh.

He (the sant) is neutral to pleasure and pain and leads a spiritually elevated life free of vengeance and grudge.

ਦਯਾਲੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਜੀਆ ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਬਿਵਰਜਿਤਹ॥
Da-yaalaN sarbatar jee-aa panch dokh bivarjiteh.

A sant is compassionate and kind to all and is free of the five negative traits (the five thieves, kaam, krodh, lobh, moah and hunkaar, i.e. lust, anger, greed, attachment and egoism).

ਭੋਜਨੰ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਕੀਰਤਨੰ ਅਲਪ ਮਾਯਾ ਜਲ ਕਮਲ ਰਹਤਹ॥
bhojanaN gopaal keeratanaN alap maa-yaa jal kamal rahtah.

They take the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise as their food; they remain untouched by Maya, like the lotus in the water.

ਉਪਦੇਸੰ ਸਮ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਤ੍ਰਹ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਵਨੀ॥
updaysaN sam mitar satreh bhagvant bhagat bhaavnee.

Their attitude towards all (foe and friend alike) is one of love and reconciliation. Their devotion towards (and love for) Waheguru is sincere and unconditional.

ਪਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਨਹ ਸ੍ਰੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੰ ਆਪੁਤਿIਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਣੁਕਹ॥
par nindaa nah sarot sarvanaN aap ti-yaag sagal raynukeh.

They are above slander – do not listen to slander nor are they perturbed by slander against them. They are a model of humility (dust of all) and serenity.

ਖਟ ਲਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਣ ਪੂਰਨੰ ਪੁਰਖਹ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਧ ਸ੍ਵਜਨਹ॥੪੦॥
khat lakh-yan pooranaN pukhah naanak naam saaDh savajniH. ||40||
A person who has all opf the above six attributes, O Nanak, is a sant, a gurmakh.


I seek forgiveness for any errors in my English translation.

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[Harry Haller]

He (the sant) is neutral to pleasure and pain and leads a spiritually elevated life free of vengeance and grudge.

This comes across to me as slightly Vedic, slightly Buddhist, in some of the more respected Sakhis, the pleasure and pain of the Gurus is documented, although I am not one to base an argument on a Sakhi...

is the goal to be neutral to pleasure and pain and see it all as one, or to acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence?

My own images of the Gurus is of one in constant pleasure at the connection, one might even call this pleasure Chardi Kala, having pleasure no matter what life throws at you, no matter what you throw at yourself.


Is it the concept of accepting everything equally, and gaining pleasure from everything that is important, or the rejection of pleasure and pain so that one feels nothing?

 

[angrisha]

Is it the concept of accepting everything equally, and gaining pleasure from everything that is important, or the rejection of pleasure and pain so that one feels nothing?

Maybe it is rising above it? Rather than rejecting it, because rejection is just another form of denial... something has to exist for you to deny it. So, IMO you would reach a place 'above it' where you accept everything as it is, and understand if there is happiness/unhappiness somewhere it is, because we so choose to see it?

Just a thought.....

 

[arshi]

Harry ji wrote:

is the goal to be neutral to pleasure and pain and see it all as one, or to acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence?

Harry ji it took me a few minutes to understand what you are saying – that is if I understand it at all. A translation can never be perfect and feedback from readers is always useful. I think the latter part of your interpretation (highlighted and underlined by me) appeals to me – umm food for thought. Acceptance is the keyword - acceptance of Hukam.

jay sukh deh ta tujheh araaDhee dukh bhee tujhai Dhi-aa-ee. ||2|| (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 757 -11)

When You shower happiness upon me, I will worship You; however, even in times of adversity I will meditate (contemplate) upon Your Name.
This basic translation too can be improved upon.

Thanks and regards

Rajinder Singh ‘Arshi’

 

[chazSingh]

T

is the goal to be neutral to pleasure and pain and see it all as one, or to acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence?

I think what you've written above is the same thing

neutral to pleasure and pain = acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence

when one has good fortune, their Ego may tell them "i must have done something really good...look at me...i'm blessed"

when one goes through hardship their Ego may say "why me...what have i done to deserve this...i hate you God"

one who ackowledges both or is neutral to both may say "all is you...I have you as my support through both good and bad...whilst worldly situations change from day to day...you (god) remain forever with me and within me"

Just my current thought Harry Ji,

Hope all is well.......God seems to have heard my wife's calls for wanting a cat...
one appeared in our garden, and now seems to have acquired a home. your comments about '"dogs have masters, and cats have slaves" is 100% true!!!

 

[Harry Haller]

Maybe it is rising above it? Rather than rejecting it, because rejection is just another form of denial... something has to exist for you to deny it. So, IMO you would reach a place 'above it' where you accept everything as it is, and understand if there is happiness/unhappiness somewhere it is, because we so choose to see it?

Just a thought.....

maybe it is the complete rejection then of unhappiness, ie, to be happy no matter what.

 

[Harry Haller]

I think what you've written above is the same thing

neutral to pleasure and pain = acknowledge that there is pleasure and pain in life and feel it with equal acceptence

when one has good fortune, their Ego may tell them "i must have done something really good...look at me...i'm blessed"

when one goes through hardship their Ego may say "why me...what have i done to deserve this...i hate you God"

one who ackowledges both or is neutral to both may say "all is you...I have you as my support through both good and bad...whilst worldly situations change from day to day...you (god) remain forever with me and within me"

Just my current thought Harry Ji,

Hope all is well.......God seems to have heard my wife's calls for wanting a cat...
one appeared in our garden, and now seems to have acquired a home. your comments about '"dogs have masters, and cats have slaves" is 100% true!!!

although on the face of it, you have a point, but delve a bit deeper, to be neutral to pleasure and pain gives me an image of a sage, on a mountain top, in the cold, refusing to partake in life, refusing to acknowledge pleasure or pain, to be basically nothing.

whereas, your Sikh, accepting of pleasure and pain, takes pleasure in pleasure, and pleasure in pain, for instance, your Sikh is walking down the road, sees an ice cream shop, goes in, has an ice cream, takes pleasure from the ice cream, gets in his car, drives off, someone rear ends him, his head hits the windscreen, suddenly, pain, he feels pain, but this is a Sikh we are talking about, ahh pain, let us look deeper, thank you Creator for giving me this wonderful gift that is able to tell me that I have suffered a trauma to the head, a paramedic arrives, describe the pain, so the pain is described, ahh that is probably concussion, let us take you to the hospital, on the way, the Sikh is thinking thank you Creator again that through this pain I was able to quickly outline my symptoms and I was able to be helped, without this pain, I could have suffered even more as I would have been unaware that I was hurt.

just a thought

 

[chazSingh]

although on the face of it, you have a point, but delve a bit deeper, to be neutral to pleasure and pain gives me an image of a sage, on a mountain top, in the cold, refusing to partake in life, refusing to acknowledge pleasure or pain, to be basically nothing.

whereas, your Sikh, accepting of pleasure and pain, takes pleasure in pleasure, and pleasure in pain, for instance, your Sikh is walking down the road, sees an ice cream shop, goes in, has an ice cream, takes pleasure from the ice cream, gets in his car, drives off, someone rear ends him, his head hits the windscreen, suddenly, pain, he feels pain, but this is a Sikh we are talking about, ahh pain, let us look deeper, thank you Creator for giving me this wonderful gift that is able to tell me that I have suffered a trauma to the head, a paramedic arrives, describe the pain, so the pain is described, ahh that is probably concussion, let us take you to the hospital, on the way, the Sikh is thinking thank you Creator again that through this pain I was able to quickly outline my symptoms and I was able to be helped, without this pain, I could have suffered even more as I would have been unaware that I was hurt.

just a thought

that's a good example...

going further, maybe the sikh who's just had his car rear ended...feels pain, anger manifest within him...the mind wants to go out in a rage and scream at the other driver...

The sikh however, not being a slave to the 5 thieves...takes a deep breath...realises he/she is ok...steps out of the car, and asks the other driver if they are ok...assists the other driver first before looking at their own injuries...the other driver is taken back, because they expected some anger or verbal abuse from the other driver...instead, they received compassion instead.

the other driver...gets taken to the hospital...thinks back at the event and tells his own family of this sikh who assisted where others may have reacted differently...the family are greatfull for the 'positive' response from the sikh...they feel happy that through such a bad event, some caring and compassion manifested. the positive ripple just keeps on moving

The sikh - regardless of all the inconveniences of having to change his plans, deal with insurance, getting his car re-paired...thanks God for giving him the opportunity to serve another, and just gets on with life.

I've seen people respond to bad events in this way...they are a breath of fresh air

 

[Luckysingh]

Is it the concept of accepting everything equally, and gaining pleasure from everything that is important, or the rejection of pleasure and pain so that one feels nothing?

I think the key is to make that fine line of duality as fainter as possible.
To ACCEPT both pain and pleasure with equal gratitude is living by the pure hukam.
To REJECT the extremes of effects that pain and pleasure can give to one's mind is probably also a good route to take. To reject the extreme joy of champagne cracking ecstatic behavior to the extreme depressive state of sorrow and remorse of pain, is also where one should position their reactions.

Chazji mentioned the EGO, and this is what we should really have a better grip over. -
We ACCEPT that the Ego makes up the me of my actions and always tries to convince the mind that ONLY the Me is in control of what Me can or will do.
Instead,we should REJECT- the fact that the Ego is at the forefront. In other words, accept that the EGO is there and will remain BUT reject the fact that the EGO is the primary doer and is always at the centre stage of your life's play.

I personally think that in gurbani and especially Bhagat Kabirji, -when speaks about death and dying is talking to me about killing, death or suicide of Ego itself. After all, how often do we think or assume that Ego is what makes us the living beings we are. We forget about having a God centre within us but we think it is just Me, My Ego that is the root of our centre instead!

 

[Harry Haller]

I think the key is to make that fine line of duality as fainter as possible.
To ACCEPT both pain and pleasure with equal gratitude is living by the pure hukam.

I cannot reconcile this, maybe others can, but I cannot. The reason I cannot is that nothing bad has ever happened to me other than by my own hand, so if in the future I get diabetes because I stuff myself with chocolate and energy drinks, how can I accept this as Hukam? If I then continue to gorge on chocolate and my diabetes gets worse, am I to keep accepting or should I look at my own actions and make changes to my life? To some extent pain and pleasure exist as warning lights, I do not believe Sikhism is about walking around with a thorn in your foot, or having a cancer, and being accepting. The pain is a sign something is wrong, a warning to do something about it, be it give up destructive habits, or remove the thorn from your foot. Again this philosophy brings to mind the foundation for most of the eastern religions, whereas Sikhism has it its heart the use of ones brain, ones logic, ones discretion. If you feel pain, look at the pain, what is causing it, why is it there, do something about it....

To REJECT the extremes of effects that pain and pleasure can give to one's mind is probably also a good route to take. To reject the extreme joy of champagne cracking ecstatic behavior to the extreme depressive state of sorrow and remorse of pain, is also where one should position their reactions.

Not all pleasure is bad, the pleasure from seeing a child get married, or from from seeing the results of good deeds, of giving, of helping, of connection, these are all pleasurable pursuits, the pleasure actually encouraging you to carry on doing such.There is no extreme joy in champagne fuelled behaviour, and even in the middle of it, there is always a gnawing feeling that this is false pleasure, we live in a society where pleasure is available at the touch of a button, at the opening of a bottle, the rolling of a dollar bill, a cruise through a redlight area, not all pleasure is the same. True pleasure has to be worked for, to be earned, and is only pleasurable to those that understand 'the way'.

Chazji mentioned the EGO, and this is what we should really have a better grip over. -
We ACCEPT that the Ego makes up the me of my actions and always tries to convince the mind that ONLY the Me is in control of what Me can or will do.

You disregard many other factors, state of mind, level of connection, chemicals in the brain due to drugs, be they prescription or non prescription, chemicals due to food, drink, circumstances of life, the brain is nothing more than an infinite amount of chemical reactions all taking place, and this defines mood, again, how much of this is in our own hands?

I personally think that in gurbani and especially Bhagat Kabirji, -when speaks about death and dying is talking to me about killing, death or suicide of Ego itself. After all, how often do we think or assume that Ego is what makes us the living beings we are. We forget about having a God centre within us but we think it is just Me, My Ego that is the root of our centre instead!

I believe we all possess a true personality, a god given personality, that we have to find and be, I also believe, like you state above, that we have to go through many personalities before we find the true god given one, free of moods, chemicals and completely in tune with Creation itself. This does not mean we should be aloof or unaware, in fact the opposite, where other religions teach aloofness and being apart as a way, I believe Sikhism advocates the opposite, absolute and complete connection, with 100% feeling.

 

[angrisha]

I cannot reconcile this, maybe others can, but I cannot. The reason I cannot is that nothing bad has ever happened to me other than by my own hand, so if in the future I get diabetes because I stuff myself with chocolate and energy drinks, how can I accept this as Hukam? If I then continue to gorge on chocolate and my diabetes gets worse, am I to keep accepting or should I look at my own actions and make changes to my life? To some extent pain and pleasure exist as warning lights, I do not believe Sikhism is about walking around with a thorn in your foot, or having a cancer, and being accepting. The pain is a sign something is wrong, a warning to do something about it, be it give up destructive habits, or remove the thorn from your foot. Again this philosophy brings to mind the foundation for most of the eastern religions, whereas Sikhism has it its heart the use of ones brain, ones logic, ones discretion. If you feel pain, look at the pain, what is causing it, why is it there, do something about it....

I think that's what the point is? That, suffering is created by us, usually it's something we've done that has led to it. Certain things may be beyond our immediate control like cancer or being born a certain way, but every challenge anyone has in they're life is an opportunity to learn something from. Whatever your challenge is, there's usually many if with in that you can reach a place of acceptance it becomes easier to move to a better mental state with it. What we resist persists... We do this all the time when moving on from the past. The thing is to be able to do that on a moment to moment bases. So, pain although unpleasant is apart of hukam.. pain is an Indication that something needs to be looked at, and paid attention to. Without it, we wouldn't be pushed to grow.

You disregard many other factors, state of mind, level of connection, chemicals in the brain due to drugs, be they prescription or non prescription, chemicals due to food, drink, circumstances of life, the brain is nothing more than an infinite amount of chemical reactions all taking place, and this defines mood, again, how much of this is in our own hands?

Some ppl are more prone to certain affects, but our brain is very plastic. We, reinforce certain pathways... So the more you focus on negative thoughts etc the more those specific pathways are enforced. Studies show that by changing thought patterns we can create and reinforce new connections, in areas of the brain that are responsible for happiness etc. So,we very much do have control.

I believe we all possess a true personality, a god given personality, that we have to find and be, I also believe, like you state above, that we have to go through many personalities before we find the true god given one, free of moods, chemicals and completely in tune with Creation itself. This does not mean we should be aloof or unaware, in fact the opposite, where other religions teach aloofness and being apart as a way, I believe Sikhism advocates the opposite, absolute and complete connection, with 100% feeling.

I heard once and I forget from who... That your personality is here to serve your soul. I agree that sikhi is about being fully present and connected. Which can often be harder than renunciation of the world. Which may also work for some ppl

 

[chazSingh]

I cannot reconcile this, maybe others can, but I cannot. The reason I cannot is that nothing bad has ever happened to me other than by my own hand, so if in the future I get diabetes because I stuff myself with chocolate and energy drinks, how can I accept this as Hukam? If I then continue to gorge on chocolate and my diabetes gets worse, am I to keep accepting or should I look at my own actions and make changes to my life?

problem with examples like this is - what about all the people that eat healthy, exercise, do all the things required to not get diabetes..but then end up with diabetes and their neighbour who eats what he wants lives a healthy life...that must be a kick in ones Ego...what control does one really truely have?

And your thoughts...the thoughts that prompt you to eat lots of chocolates...how much control do you have over these? i mean...if you know chocolate is bad for you...why don;t we just stop the thoughts of "go on, eat that chocolate".?

And if we cannot completely control these thoughts...i guess the trick is to not latch onto them and become a slave to them...then you transcend the mind...and come into 'knowledge' of your true self...and then the really amazing discoveries begin. because we have accepted.."i am not the body, i am not my thoughts, i am not my mind...and am not limited to this...how could I eve have limited myself to this....I AM MORE...WHO AM I...is there even an I"

To some extent pain and pleasure exist as warning lights, I do not believe Sikhism is about walking around with a thorn in your foot, or having a cancer, and being accepting. The pain is a sign something is wrong, a warning to do something about it,

don't think anyone says walk around as if nothing is wrong and just accept it...

patient 1 has cancer - Patient 1 loses all will to live, complains to everyone...becomes destructive to himself and his family...becomes abusive..then stops interacting with everyone because he cannot accept the situation he is in....why me! why me! why me! i don't want to Die!

patient 2 has cancer - patient 2 accepts his current situation...decides to spend this critical time with his family...do a little charity and help others that are in similar situation to himself...decides to look at all methods of recover in a positive frame of mind...yet accepts that he may die...but wants to leave behind great memories with his family...patient realises he has wasted so much time and never appreciated all the great things he has in his life...through the onset of possibly death, he now realises that he has wondered aimlessly after money, women, etc etc...and forgot to do the finer things in life..."what can i do with my remaining time..., every second now counts...every second is precious...why didnt i realise this before...what a blessing"

both patients are in the same situation, yet they're awareness takes them through two completely different paths of action...i know which path i hope i would take.

You disregard many other factors, state of mind, level of connection, chemicals in the brain due to drugs, be they prescription or non prescription, chemicals due to food, drink, circumstances of life, the brain is nothing more than an infinite amount of chemical reactions all taking place, and this defines mood, again, how much of this is in our own hands?

For me, the mind and brain are two seperate things that co-exist...if there's one thing i;ve realised...the mind is beyond the physical brain...mind continues where the brain malfunctions and eventually dies. But Soul is beyind both and forever existing...just my current feelings.

 

[Randip Singh]

I don't know who or what is a Sant but this is what Bani says:

The people who know nothing about spirituality sing religious songs.
Like the idol hungry Mullah turns his home into a mosque.
The lazy fellow who pierces his ears to look like a Yogi.
While someone who does a dirty job and works hard loses his social status.
One who calls himself a guru or a spiritual teacher, while he goes around begging
- don't ever touch his feet.
One who works for what he eats, and gives some of what he has Nanak say's, he knows the Path.

Page 1245 Guru Granth Sahib

 

[Harry Haller]

problem with examples like this is - what about all the people that eat healthy, exercise, do all the things required to not get diabetes..but then end up with diabetes and their neighbour who eats what he wants lives a healthy life...that must be a kick in ones Ego...what control does one really truely have?

There is no problem, such people have made every effort to live life by bani, there is no one to blame, such action is Hukam through and through, to ask what control does one have is to make a mockery of the word Gursikh. Once again, I detect a sense of whatever will be, will be, which is not the essence of Sikhism, in Sikhism you fight, you do not accept what life has handed to you, you overcome.

The issue is clear, it is the difference between accepting Hukam, and accepting the consequences of your own actions, you are almost saying your own actions are also Hukam, this is called fate, and resigning oneself to such, ie, it was fate that I would eat chocolate and make myself ill, rather than a choice.

And your thoughts...the thoughts that prompt you to eat lots of chocolates...how much control do you have over these? i mean...if you know chocolate is bad for you...why don;t we just stop the thoughts of "go on, eat that chocolate".?

Your suggesting we have no control over ourselves? of course we do, it is called discipline, some are very disciplined, some are not. I am not, in fact I am possibly the most undisciplined person you have ever met, unless the consequences of my actions have been burnt into me with a red hot poker, I will carry on regardless, and even then, once the scars fade, I forget very easily, if I am not blame myself, and find that inner discipline and rely on your method of complete acceptence, I may as well slit my thoat now, as there is no hope, just Mr Beardie in the sky whom I can pray and appease so that he may bestow on me the desire not to eat chocolate.

And if we cannot completely control these thoughts...i guess the trick is to not latch onto them and become a slave to them...then you transcend the mind...and come into 'knowledge' of your true self...and then the really amazing discoveries begin. because we have accepted.."i am not the body, i am not my thoughts, i am not my mind...and am not limited to this...how could I eve have limited myself to this....I AM MORE...WHO AM I...is there even an I"

Your suggesting that those thoughts exist and cannot be banished, I disagree, they can, but it takes a lot of discipline, wisdom and understanding, and a few red hot pokers for some people, your method is to box them, put them aside, ignore them, accept them, again, I refute this, to do so is to learn nothing, it is to ignore the thorn in your foot, to learn to live with it, I would rather yank it out, one way or another.

mind, brain, soul, wolf, man,

all one , Ek Onkar

 

[chazSingh]

Your suggesting we have no control over ourselves? of course we do, it is called discipline,

Your suggesting that those thoughts exist and cannot be banished, I disagree, they can, but it takes a lot of discipline, wisdom and understanding, a

This is just it....discipline...

turning the balance from 'being used by the mind' to 'using the mind'

how often do we say to ourselves "why am i thinking these negative things" "why can't i stop these crazy thoughts"

or

how many times do we say "i shouldnt do that....shouldnt do it"...then a few minutes later... "we're doing it..."

Then mind says "why did you do it fool..." "it's ok...next time we won;t"

Then next time "we do it again"

the discipline is breaking the hold that our thoughts often have on us...

how you get that discipline is up to you..

I started doing Tai Chi...we do a sequence of forms in slow motion...not because it looks good...but because we are 'Using' our mind for balance, control, and a purpose...

during the form, mind often drifts into thoughts of Money, sex, life problems, etc etc...and form breaks...control breaks...so we start again..

eventually mind is in full control...very little wayward thoughts...and one comes into knowledge of themselves in a way they couldn't ever imagine...experience of chi...

from Intention -> Thoughts generation -> manifestion of intention into physical action..everything in perfect harmony and control...

 

[chazSingh]

think we're getting off topic again

 

[spnadmin]

This is just it....discipline...

turning the balance from 'being used by the mind' to 'using the mind'

how often do we say to ourselves "why am i thinking these negative things" "why can't i stop these crazy thoughts"

or

how many times do we say "i shouldnt do that....shouldnt do it"...then a few minutes later... "we're doing it..."

Then mind says "why did you do it fool..." "it's ok...next time we won;t"

Then next time "we do it again"

the discipline is breaking the hold that our thoughts often have on us...

how you get that discipline is up to you..

I started doing Tai Chi...we do a sequence of forms in slow motion...not because it looks good...but because we are 'Using' our mind for balance, control, and a purpose...

during the form, mind often drifts into thoughts of Money, sex, life problems, etc etc...and form breaks...control breaks...so we start again..

eventually mind is in full control...very little wayward thoughts...and one comes into knowledge of themselves in a way they couldn't ever imagine...experience of chi...

from Intention -> Thoughts generation -> manifestion of intention into physical action..everything in perfect harmony and control...

chazSingh ji

What do your words have to do with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The question, what is a Sant, is put into an SGGS context. To say from "Intention > Though generation > Manifestation of intention into physical action...everything in perfect harmony and control..." sounds more like a mind-over-matter point of view, or a personal opinion. Which is OK. If it is a personal opinion that needs to be made clear so that readers do not get the impression that this is based in Gurmat. Likewise the "experience of chi..." has no connecton to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The thread however is supposed to be looking at whether "Sant" has a unique meaning in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Please clear this up or some posts, in the exchange between you and Harry ji, need to be split from the thread and placed in Interfaith dialogues or in LIfestyle.