What Is 'True Destiny" In Sikhism?

[BhagatSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Namjivan ji,
I think the best thing someone can do is try to understand the phenomenon of free will and understand the phenomenon of lack of free will. But people don't do this, it all sounds interesting to them but it makes no sense.

A while ago I met a old friend who said he hadn't even heard of free will until he came to Canada. He was from India, and he just didn't get what we call free will. Similarly folks born here just don't get what the Indians believe, and by extension what the Gurus believe. Again the best thing to do is keep an open mind and be ready to learn when such alien concepts are presented to you.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Namji{censored}aur ji,
There is a very appropriate message from Gurbanee as
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width="94%" background=paper.jpg><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 736
ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਸਰਬ ਰਜਾਈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਚੈ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੀਐ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਖੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ॥ ਅਸਾ ਜੋਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਮ ਸਾਕਹ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਬਖਸਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਦੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੂੰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਹੇ ਕੋ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਸਾਜੀ ਕੋਈ ਛੇਵਾ ਕਰਿਉ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਇਕਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਬੁਝਾਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਿ ਰੋਵੈ ॥੩॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਹਉ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਾ ਹਉ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਨੀਚਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸਿ ਲੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਪਇਆ ਅਜਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੫॥੨੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 736}
In this Sabad there is very clear message about the role of being predestined and Hukamu as well.
I hope you can understand the meanings of this Sabad.I shall try to give its meaning in Enlish shortly for your reference.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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[namjiwankaur]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

_/|\_ Sat Nam

Prakash ji...

Yes, please translate for me into English. Thank you.

Nam Jiwan kaurhug

 

[chazSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Namji{censored}aur ji,
There is a very appropriate message from Gurbanee as
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width="94%" background=paper.jpg><TBODY><TR><TD>Page 736
ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਸਰਬ ਰਜਾਈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਚੈ ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਕੀਐ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਖੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ॥ ਅਸਾ ਜੋਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਮ ਸਾਕਹ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਬਖਸਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਦੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੂੰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਹੇ ਕੋ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਜੇਹਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਧੁਰਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਭ ਸਾਜੀ ਕੋਈ ਛੇਵਾ ਕਰਿਉ ਜੇ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਇਕਨਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਬੁਝਾਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਿ ਰੋਵੈ ॥੩॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਹਉ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਾ ਹਉ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਨੀਚਾਣੁ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸਿ ਲੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਪਇਆ ਅਜਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੫॥੨੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 736}
In this Sabad there is very clear message about the role of being predestined and Hukamu as well.
I hope you can understand the meanings of this Sabad.I shall try to give its meaning in Enlish shortly for your reference.
Prakash.S.Bagga

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Perfect, just perfect

 

[BhagatSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

When someone is able to come out and have the realisation of pure truth then they will acknowledge that the 'free will' was not permanent.
What is permanent and above all is the hukam and divine will.

Lucky Singh ji,
This is getting there. I think Guru Sahibs would say that you have free will up to the point you understand hukam. After that only His hukam operates, and there is no individual will.

 

[chazSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

_/|\_ Sat Nam

Prakash ji...

Yes, please translate for me into English. Thank you.

Nam Jiwan kaurhug

English translation:
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=G&pageno=736

 

[namjiwankaur]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Sat Nam _/|\_

I posted an English translation from Sikhs.org. It is a very readable format for those who don't know Punjabi, Gurmukhi, etc.. It speaks of the masterpiece of life very beautifully. When I think two things are "opposite" such as God's will and our will, it usually helps to imagine things like images of Shiva-Shakti. Or a coin with one picture on one side and another picture on the other side. Does Sri Guru Granth Sahib speak of the awe of that kind of unity in what appears to be separated?

Thanks for getting me to "Page 736". I wonder if I can save these as files at Sikhnet where you can create and print.

In Sufism, there is also the belief that all is done according to Divine Will. Muslims say "Insha'Allah" (Arabic for God willing). Maybe we just fool ourselves or foolishly believe we are more in control than we think we are.

There is a saying in 12 Steps "Let go and let God". People tend to find serenity when they go with God's Way (The Tao describes this so well). There is also the serenity prayer which helps addicts get perspective.

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Again I bring up Neil Donald Walsh's picture book...The Little Soul and the Sun. It puts all we are discussing in easy to understand language.

Nam Jiwan


Page 736
They suffer the terrible pains of birth and death. By Guru's Grace, a few rare ones are saved; I am a sacrifice to those humble beings. || 3 || The One who created the Universe, that Lord alone knows. His beauty is incomparable. O Nanak, the Lord Himself gazes upon it, and is pleased. The Gurmukh contemplates God. || 4 || 3 || 14 || SOOHEE, FOURTH MEHL: All that happens, and all that will happen, is by His Will. If we could do something by ourselves, we would. By ourselves, we cannot do anything at all. As it pleases the Lord, He preserves us. || 1 || O my Dear Lord, everything is in Your power. I have no power to do anything at all. As it pleases You, You forgive us. || 1 || Pause || You Yourself bless us with soul, body and everything. You Yourself cause us to act. As You issue Your Commands, so do we act, according to our pre-ordained destiny. || 2 || You created the entire Universe out of the five elements; if anyone can create a sixth, let him. You unite some with the True Guru, and cause them to understand, while others, the self-willed manmukhs, do their deeds and cry out in pain. || 3 || I cannot describe the glorious greatness of the Lord; I am foolish, thoughtless, idiotic and lowly. Please, forgive servant Nanak, O my Lord and Master; I am ignorant, but I have entered Your Sanctuary. || 4 || 4 || 15 || 24 ||

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

_/|\_ Sat Nam

Prakash ji...

Yes, please translate for me into English. Thank you.

Nam Jiwan kaurhug

ChazSingh ji has given the correct reference I am posting the same as

<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 50px" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>
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</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>sUhI mhlw 4 ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>soohee mehalaa 4 ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Soohee, Fourth Mehla:

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>kIqw krxw srb rjweI ikCu kIcY jy kir skIAY ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>keethaa karanaa sarab rajaaee kishh keechai jae kar sakeeai ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>All that happens, and all that will happen, is by His Will. If we could do something by ourselves, we would.

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>Awpxw kIqw ikCU n hovY ijau hir BwvY iqau rKIAY ]1]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>aapanaa keethaa kishhoo n hovai jio har bhaavai thio rakheeai ||1||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>By ourselves, we cannot do anything at all. As it pleases the Lord, He preserves us. ||1||

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>myry hir jIau sBu ko qyrY vis ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>maerae har jeeo sabh ko thaerai vas ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>O my Dear Lord, everything is in Your power.

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>Asw joru nwhI jy ikCu kir hm swkh ijau BwvY iqvY bKis ]1] rhwau ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>asaa jor naahee jae kishh kar ham saakeh jio bhaavai thivai bakhas ||1|| rehaao ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>I have no power to do anything at all. As it pleases You, You forgive us. ||1||Pause||

</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>sBu jIau ipMfu dIAw quDu Awpy quDu Awpy kwrY lwieAw ]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>sabh jeeo pi(n)dd dheeaa thudhh aapae thudhh aapae kaarai laaeiaa ||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>You Yourself bless us with soul, body and everything. You Yourself cause us to act.

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</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>jyhw qUM hukmu krih qyhy ko krm kmwvY jyhw quDu Duir iliK pwieAw ]2]

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>jaehaa thoo(n) hukam karehi thaehae ko karam kamaavai jaehaa thudhh dhhur likh paaeiaa ||2||

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>As You issue Your Commands, so do we act, according to our pre-ordained destiny. ||2||
<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 50px" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>pMc qqu kir quDu isRsit sB swjI koeI Cyvw kirau jy ikCu kIqw hovY ]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>pa(n)ch thath kar thudhh srisatt sabh saajee koee shhaevaa kario jae kishh keethaa hovai ||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>You created the entire Universe out of the five elements; if anyone can create a sixth, let him.
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>ieknw siqguru myil qUM buJwvih ieik mnmuiK krih is rovY ]3]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>eikanaa sathigur mael thoo(n) bujhaavehi eik manamukh karehi s rovai ||3||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>You unite some with the True Guru, and cause them to understand, while others, the self-willed manmukhs, do their deeds and cry out in pain. ||3||
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</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>hir kI vifAweI hau AwiK n swkw hau mUrKu mugDu nIcwxu ]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>har kee vaddiaaee ho aakh n saakaa ho moorakh mugadhh neechaan ||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>I cannot describe the glorious greatness of the Lord; I am foolish, thoughtless, idiotic and lowly.
</TD></TR><TR><TD height=10 vAlign=top align=center>
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>jn nwnk kau hir bKis lY myry suAwmI srxwgiq pieAw Ajwxu ]4]4]15]24]
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>jan naanak ko har bakhas lai maerae suaamee saranaagath paeiaa ajaan ||4||4||15||24||
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top>Please, forgive servant Nanak, O my Lord and Master; I am ignorant, but I have entered Your Sanctuary. ||4||4||15||24||

Prakash.S.Bagga
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[Luckysingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

What else needs to be said, when this shabad tells all ?
Let's start living by the word of shabad.

 

[namjiwankaur]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

_/|\_ Sat Nam

Thanks Prakash ji and Lucky ji. What an amazing gift the Guru Granth Sahib is to all humanity....helping us find our way. peacesign

Nam Jiwan

 

[palaingtha]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

From Gurbanee one can learn that Real Gurmikh is not under the influence of his FREE WILL.The FREE WILL becomes zero then only one can relish the essence of NAAMu

It would be equally important to understand the reference of SANT..
In Gurbanee GuRu itself is the only SANT one is required to meet
and meeting this SANT is also predestined.


Prakash.S.Bagga

We have been sent to do our deeds good or bad and depending our deeds we are born again and again or attain Moksha. That means Gurbani says we are at our free will to do our deeds. Destiny is we meet bad or good people depending on which our life courses are changed.

God do not bestow destiny one to do bad things, like, swindling, cheating, indulging in fraudulent actions,manufacturing spurious medicines, indulging in food adultrations etc. etc. We do these things or good things due to our dishonesty or truthfulness. That means our actions are swayed by our minds.

Gurbani wants us to be honest. And if we go by Gurbani we will not do bad things but if we are MANMUKHS we will not be impressed by Gurbani and indulge in actions as our mind dictates.

If everything is controlled by destiny nobody is to be blamed for his actions. Or for that matter appreciated.

When one meets a saint his course is not automatically changed. If he is impressed by the saints words he will start listening to him. Otherwise he may ignore what the good man preaches/advises.

 

[palaingtha]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

unless the others are mona

To be honest is not confined to his co-religionists. To be honest, to be kind, to be generous etc. is a must for us to persons of irrespective of cast and creed., even to all creatures.
Now,will you stop the taunting tone?
You could have posed me an honest question.
But, you know, a zebra will not shed its stripes. How true!!!

 

[BhagatSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Palaingtha ji,
Yes people can choose to do whatever they want or desire, whether good or bad. This is free will correct?

But can they choose their wants and desires?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

PALAINGTHA Ji,

I dont know what saints you are talking about.
I have known only ONE SANT-SGGS

One should always listen to good people and live in their company also
if they talk about the teachings of SGGS.

But it can be observed most the times it does not happen so

So one should understand can there be teachings from persons
better than the teachings from SGGS?

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Prakash ji,
There is Sant Ramanand ji, Sant Kabir ji, Sant Ravidas ji, Bibi Mirabai ji, I could go on, which were present and recognized as Sants during Guru's times.
Then there are present-day ("modern") Sants like Sant Sukha Singh ji, Sant Jarnail Singh ji, Sant Isher Singh ji.
sant baba sukha singh ji at ashram nirmal kutiya tarn tarn( diwali di raat ) - YouTube
RARE video. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale speech at Baba Atal Rai Gurdwara Sahib - YouTube
Raakhahu Raakhanehaar Dhaeiaalaa - Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji - YouTube

I should be fair, there are also non-Indian Sants like Eckharte Tolle and Thich Nhat Hanh.
Eckhart Tolle - Transmuting Suffering into Peace - 1 of 3 - YouTube
What is Nirvana ? - YouTube

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Bhagat Singh Ji,
I am sorry to state that some people have grossly misused the use of the word
SANT as reference for the persons. This is the result of ignorance about the
knowledge of true reference of this word.
From Gurbanee this is clarified that it is GuRu only as SANTu.Since people
could not dare to be refered themselves as GuRu in presence of SGGS as GuRu
so they chose another word for themselves as SANT.
One can see that the traddition of GuRoo ship transfer is most oldest tradition in
any field.This tradtion still exist more specifically in the field of Music and ARTS

.In spritual field since Sikhs have SGGS as GuRoo so there is no need of any
human person as GuRu./GuRoo.

So now any person can be /should be refered as SEWAK/DAAS of SGGS.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[harcharanjitsinghdhillon]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Without god s realisation we are still wonderers

 

[BhagatSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Bhagat Singh Ji,
I am sorry to state that some people have grossly misused the use of the word
SANT as reference for the persons. This is the result of ignorance about the
knowledge of true reference of this word.
From Gurbanee this is clarified that it is GuRu only as SANTu.Since people
could not dare to be refered themselves as GuRu in presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as GuRu
so they chose another word for themselves as SANT.
One can see that the traddition of GuRoo ship transfer is most oldest tradition in
any field.This tradtion still exist more specifically in the field of Music and ARTS

.In spritual field since Sikhs have Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as GuRoo so there is no need of any
human person as GuRu./GuRoo.

So now any person can be /should be refered as SEWAK/DAAS of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Prakash ji what is your source of this.
I mean the word Sant just means "Enlightened one". There are many enlightened beings around the globe, and some make an appearance in public. We can learn from the teachings they preach.

Now I am ok with someone saying Guru Granth Sahib ji is all you need to attain enlightenment. I think seeing, listening to enlightened beings can also help.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

I mean the word Sant just means "Enlightened one". There are many enlightened beings around the globe, and some make an appearance in public. We can learn from the teachings they preach.

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
Why cant we refer enlightened persons as BRAHAMGIYANI.? I think this can be still
more appropriate reference than SANT

My understanding is that PRIMARILY all Noun words(Singular or Plural) are references for
GuRu/GuR or Prabhu/Prabh.
In context of enlightened ones these references are like SANT JAN or SADH JAN.
Due to this misconception people run after so called self styled SANT/SANTS and
remain distracted from the REAL SANT.

I think the most appropriate reference can be BHAI SAHIB Ji but this reference is not liked by such persons.WHY?

I think it always better to understand and stick to the PRIME reference meanings
of all Gurbanee Noun words then there is hardly any chance of getting distracted.

This is what I personally feel .

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

re: What is 'True Destiny" in Sikhism?

Prakash ji,
Ok Brahmgyani is another. I can use that.

So give us some examples of usage of 'Sant' in Guru Granth Sahib.