What Is Wrong

[spnadmin]

Parma

This topic is a very complicated issue. All religions and moral philosophy in both western and eastern traditions have grappled with it for thousands of years. My suspicion is that you will get some responses but people need time to think. A breezy response doesn't do the topic justice. Good of you to keep it going.

Perhaps I will say more once I think more carefully.

For now consider this. When you assume there is a free will you must also assume that there is an independent person, a rational agent (a doer who acts according to choices before him). This means the "doer" is acting according to his/her personal understanding "self" or "personal identity". Without a personal construction of MY SELF there is no one to make choices or moral decisions.

So what happens when you say this? There no personal MY SELF. Self is a mental contruction (EGO). And furthermore, the personal construction of self inteferes with making a connection with the Divine.

Then what happens when you say this? On making a connection with the Divine, the personal construction of self ends because it is not real any longer. At this point, free will no longer makes sense.

Then ask this. When MYSELF ends because of MY connection with Waheguru, do I continue to be a moral being making moral choices?

(Folks I am not talking about the person of antoniaji. Please do not send me advice.)

That gives you an idea of how complicated this topic is. Understanding free will is not a simple matter of choosing between karma and enlightenment, or between saying that all behavior is determined by God's will versus all behavior is freely chosen.

A working example from Guru Angad (on sikiwiki)

Sewa

Guru Angad believed in the service and well-being of all mankind and not just of his own followers. He laid stress on character building rather than observance of rituals and formalities. The path which Guru Angad pointed out to his Sikhs for achieving enlightenment was through service and good actions and devotion and worship of one God. He asked his followers to win Divine grace by prayer, singing His praises, cultivating humility, a spirit of service and submitting at all time to His will. Paying a fine under pressure, does not bring either merit or goodness. That alone is a good deed, O Nanak, which is done by one’s own free will. Sewa has to be done selflessly.

Eliminate your conceit and then perform service to humanity, Only then you will get honor - Guru Angad Dev


Not easy is it? Some personal choice is defnitely at work here. Some work by Waheguru is also at work here.

People will respond. It just takes some time.

 

[Parma]

When all other avenues of thought fail. Common sense must prevail! Otherwise the world has no distinction, between sense and non-sense.

 

[simpy]

Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

let us start with the mind-

Guru Ji says-

AMg 415​

ang 415​

Page 415​

​

Awsw mhlw 1 ]​

aasaa mehulaa 1 ​

Aasaa, First Mehl:​

​

mnu mYglu swkqu dyvwnw ]​

mun maigul saakuth dhaevaanaa​

The mind of the faithless cynic is like a crazy elephant.​

​

bn KMif mwieAw moih hYrwnw ]​

bun khundd maaeiaa mohi hairaanaa​

It wanders around the forest, distracted by attachment to Maya.​

​

ieq auq jwih kwl ky cwpy ]​

eith outh jaahi kaal kae chaapae​

It goes here and there, hounded by death.​

​

gurmuiK Koij lhY Gru Awpy ]1]​

gurumukh khoj lehai ghur aapae​

The Gurmukh seeks, and finds his own home. ||1||​

​

ibnu gur sbdY mnu nhI Taurw ]​

bin gur subudhai mun nehee thouraa​

Without the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind finds no place of rest.​

​

ismrhu rwm nwmu Aiq inrmlu Avr iqAwghu haumY kaurw ]1] rhwau ]​

simuruhu raam naam ath nirumul avur thiaaguhu houmai kouraa​

Remember in meditation the Lord's Name, the most pure and sublime; renounce your bitter egotism. ||1||Pause||​

​

iehu mnu mugDu khhu ikau rhsI ]​

eihu mun mugudh kehuhu kio rehusee​

Tell me, how can this stupid mind be rescued?​

​

ibnu smJy jm kw duKu shsI ]​

bin sumujhae jum kaa dhukh sehusee​

Without understanding, it shall suffer the pains of death.​

​

Awpy bKsy siqguru mylY ]​

aapae bukhusae sathigur maelai​

The Lord Himself forgives us, and unites us with the True Guru.​

​

kwlu kMtku mwry scu pylY ]2]​

kaal kunttuk maarae such paelai​

The True Lord conquers and overcomes the tortures of death. ||2||​

​

iehu mnu krmw iehu mnu Drmw ]​

eihu mun kurumaa eihu mun dhurumaa​

This mind commits its deeds of karma, and this mind follows the Dharma.​

​

iehu mnu pMc qqu qy jnmw ]​

eihu mun punch thuth thae junumaa​

This mind is born of the five elements.​

​

swkqu loBI iehu mnu mUVw ]​

saakuth lobhee eihu mun moorraa​

This foolish mind is per-ver-ted and greedy.​

​

gurmuiK nwmu jpY mnu rUVw ]3]​

gurumukh naam jupai mun roorraa​

Chanting the Naam, the mind of the Gurmukh becomes beautiful. ||3||​

​

gurmuiK mnu AsQwny soeI ]​

gurumukh mun asuthaanae soee​

The mind of the Gurmukh finds the Lord's home.​

​

gurmuiK iqRBvix soJI hoeI ]​

gurumukh thribhuvan sojhee hoee​

The Gurmukh comes to know the three worlds.​

​

iehu mnu jogI BogI qpu qwpY ]​

eihu mun jogee bhogee thup thaapai​

This mind is a Yogi, an enjoyer, a practicer of austerities.​

​

gurmuiK cInY@ hir pRBu AwpY ]4]​

gurumukh cheenai har prubh aapai​

The Gurmukh understands the Lord God Himself. ||4||​

​

mnu bYrwgI haumY iqAwgI ]​

mun bairaagee houmai thiaagee​

This mind is a detached renunciate, forsaking egotism.​

​

Git Git mnsw duibDw lwgI ]​

ghatt ghatt munusaa dhubidhaa laagee​

Desire and duality afflict each and every heart.​

​

rwm rswiexu gurmuiK cwKY ]​

raam rusaaein gurumukh chaakhai​

The Gurmukh drinks in the Lord's sublime essence;​

​

dir Gir mhlI hir piq rwKY ]5]​

dhar ghar mehulee har path raakhai​

at His Door, in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, He preserves his honor. ||5||​

​

iehu mnu rwjw sUr sMgRwim ]​

eihu mun raajaa soor sungraam ​

This mind is the king, the hero of cosmic battles.​

​

iehu mnu inrBau gurmuiK nwim ]​

eihu mun nirubho gurumukh naam ​

The mind of the Gurmukh becomes fearless through the Naam.​

​

mwry pMc ApunY vis kIey ]​

maarae punch apunai vas keeeae​

Overpowering and subduing the five passions,​

​

haumY gRwis iekqu Qwie kIey ]6]​

houmai graas eikuth thaae keeeae​

holding ego in its grip, it confines them to one place. ||6||​

​

gurmuiK rwg suAwd An iqAwgy ]​

gurumukh raag suaadh an thiaagae​

The Gurmukh renounces other songs and tastes.​

​

gurmuiK iehu mnu BgqI jwgy ]​

gurumukh eihu mun bhuguthee jaagae​

The mind of the Gurmukh is awakened to devotion.​

​

Anhd suix mwinAw sbdu vIcwrI ]​

anehudh sun maaniaa subudh veechaaree​

Hearing the unstruck music of the sound current, this mind contemplates the Shabad, and accepts it.​

​

Awqmu cIin@ Bey inrMkwrI ]7]​

aathum cheen ibheae nirunkaaree​

Understanding itself, this soul becomes attuned to the Formless Lord. ||7||​

​

iehu mnu inrmlu dir Gir soeI ]​

eihu mun nirumul dhar ghar soee​

This mind becomes immaculately pure, in the Court and the Home of the Lord.​

​

gurmuiK Bgiq Bwau Duin hoeI ]​

gurumukh bhugath bhaao dhun hoee​

The Gurmukh shows his love through loving devotional worship.​

​

Aihinis hir jsu gur prswid ]​

ahinis har jus gur purusaadh ​

Night and day, by Guru's Grace, sing the Lord's Praises.​

​

Git Git so pRBu Awid jugwid ]8]​

ghatt ghatt so prubh aadh jugaadh ​

God dwells in each and every heart, since the very beginning of time, and throughout the ages. ||8||​

​

rwm rswieix iehu mnu mwqw ]​

raam rusaaein eihu mun maathaa​

This mind is intoxicated with the sublime essence of the Lord;​

​

srb rswiexu gurmuiK jwqw ]​

surub rusaaein gurumukh jaathaa​

The Gurmukh realizes the essence of totality.​

​

Bgiq hyqu gur crx invwsw ]​

bhugath haeth gur churun nivaasaa​

For the sake of devotional worship, he dwells at the Guru's Feet.​

​

nwnk hir jn ky dwsin dwsw ]9]8]​

naanuk har jun kae dhaasan dhaasaa​

Nanak is the humble servant of the slave of the Lord's slaves. ||9||8||
will continue​

forgive me please