What To Do With The Un-Natural Growth Of Hair On Female Faces?

[Mai Harinder Kaur]

I'm with you on the make-up Mai ji! The best anyone can get out of me is a smear of lipstick occasionally. I swear I look like a raccoon if I try to put anything around my eyes!

And also, thanks for the link to your site! "Can I improve on perfection?" Good title, teehee!! cheeringkudi

Ish

Thanks, Ishna ji! I had a lot of fun putting that site together. It's really funny, isn't it, that we are taught to be self-deprecatingly humble when, in fact, we are perfect. (But don't tell anyone that; few understand the difference between recognising Akaal Purakh in us and haumai.)

 

[spnadmin]

!

Spnadmin ji, can we run a poll on the acceptance of bodily and facial hair on women for this online sangat?

Ishna

We could do that, but I have some reservations.

I suspect that most responders would be men, giving a man's perspective.
Men guiding women because "they are a confused lot" has been a bone sticking in my throat for several years.

The opinion of practicing Sikhs would probably be in a very small minority, on an issue that affect them more than others.

My main question would be -- "the matter of dishonouring the hair" -- is resolved in SRM, regardless of what the majority view might be.

Let me see what the leaders and moderators consensus is.

 

[Siri Kamala]

You could always set up two separate surveys -- one for women only and one for men only. It would be interesting to see how the responses compare, yes? :grinningkudi:

 

[spnadmin]

siri kamala ji

We will try to figure out how to do that too, as it really would be interesting. Kudos to you for figuring out what I said. There were 2 typos that were really bad. I have fixed them. The matter, by way of an update , is now being discussed by mentors and forum leaders to decide whether to proceed. Thanks.

 

[Ambarsaria]

I see that there are probably two aspects to the original inquiry. I see these as,

1. Hirsutism: Causes and cure for Hirsutism which many searches indicate can be traced to endocrine disorder issues.
2. Sikh Rehat Maryada: Does Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM) has a role in it.

My opinion on the two issues to the best of my abilities as follows,

1. Hirsutism: If one has reasonable access to good health care specialist this perhaps should be looked at first. It is possible that the condition itself may foretell more chemical or other bodily ailments that may be determined though Endocrinologist centric or other appropriate medical investigation. If a suitable, available and affordable solution is found this perhaps is the best path.​

I am not a medical doctor so the above are from concerned reading and searching if it is helpful.

If a solution is found in this approach then a philosophical question does get raised. If taking medication (it is not against SRM) solves the issue why other methods if more affordable or economical should not be sanctioned aside from the SRM reference to bodily hair sanctity.

2. Hirsutism hair removal and SRM: It is my understanding that even though SRM is pretty comprehensive that its application to specific situations like posed in this thread is subject to interpretation. If a baptized sikh person (specially a baptized sikh lady) feels it to be a virtual mental anguish/disease according to their consideration (or the specialists as in 1 above) that they should be allowed access to a remedy of choice. If one is unsure this should be handled and argued at the "matta" level in the presence of 5 amritdhari baptized sikhs for consideration again brought forward by the person or their friends. I believe the SRM allows for that.

If the issue is considered global the "matta" can be sent for review at the level of "gurmatta".

​

Just my input to the dialog.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Ishna]

Thank you for your valuable input Ambarsaria ji. I am in agreeance with you about seeking appropriate medical consultation. If it is determined that a chemical imbalance is the cause of someone's "excess" facial hair, and solving the problem by correcting the imbalance will make the hairs go away, then what is the harm in removing them by other possibly less-expensive methods.

I have just one comment, and that was where you said:

If a solution is found in this approach then a philosophical question does get raised. If taking medication (it is not against SRM) solves the issue why other methods if more affordable or economical should not be sanctioned aside from the SRM reference to bodily hair sanctity.

Taking medication is not against SRM specifically but it wasn't written with a crystal ball to see hair removal methods of the future. Instead of looking at the Rehat Mayada as precise instructions I think it needs to be understood what the reasons are behind the examples given, similar to the "don't dye your beard" example. Obviously the intent is not to dye any of your hairs, but if we take the example given of just your beard, then technically we can dye all our other hairs and it won't be against the Rehat Maryada!

Similarly, if we read we may not cut hairs or use a razor, we should be able to take medication and use lazer hair removal because the SRM doesn't say we can't use these! Logically, the meaning behind not cutting it or using a razor means we don't remove our hairs at all, whatever the method may be.

I'm still hung up on the meaning of the word "kesh" and why the word for all body hair wasn't used when it was first decreed. Personally I'm convinced it means head hair/man's beard only as part of a uniform but I could be shooting myself with my own smoking gun here!!! haha

I guess it's up to the individual to assess all the information and make their decision as they are guided to make it.

I am unfamiliar with the term "matta" -- can someone explain this to me please? Can the Panj Piare give guidance outside the rules of SRM after taking into consideration the circumstances, etc? I could understand that if I was amritdhari and in the position of having hirsuitism(sp) and I wasn't sure about taking the meds or removing my hairs, I'd feel a lot better given "permission" by the Panj Piare to do so in light of the situation, but I'm not sure this is what you were getting at.

Ishna

 

[Ambarsaria]

Thank you Ishna ji. I wonder if the following could be of help,

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

The Matta and Gurmatta description is at the bottom part of the above.

The complete Sikh Rehat Maryada document reference is as follows,

http://www.sgpc.net/sikhism/sikh-dharma-manual.html

Sat Sri Akal

 

[findingmyway]

I'm still hung up on the meaning of the word "kesh" and why the word for all body hair wasn't used when it was first decreed. Personally I'm convinced it means head hair/man's beard only as part of a uniform but I could be shooting myself with my own smoking gun here!!! haha

KESH=UNCUT HAIR
notice there is no reference to length or position but simply to what is natural

Anyone who says the meaning is otherwise is doing so to justify not keeping kesh. My advice is to focus on Gurbani first then the strength and desire to keep kesh will hopefully come from within.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Kesh is normally used for Hair on the Head....and the Comb is also used on the head hair and sometimes for the beard/muchhaan !! a true Sikh RESPECTS all ROM ROM..becasue ROM ROM is mentioned in GURBANI....and Rom covers each tiny hair on a body !!

BUT people always tend to "Split Hairs"............and Kesh are being split all the time (thats why we have split ends !!)
Others split the Kirpan..its length etc..yet others split the kachera....whether it hsould have a Naala (string/drawstring) or Rubber Band..or pins and buttons...whatever...karra.....should a karra be striped..black iron..stainless steel..gold...???? and the KANGHA ??? what about the COMB...?? LUCKILY for us the Comb or Knagha comes ALREADY SPLIT...or some would be busy splitting that also...( like just HOW MANY needles should a Kangha have...20...25...31..41..how many is per SRM..Taksal Maryada..???.to each his/her own splitting....while the Gurmatt Following ones go along their way merrily following the Guru's Instructions...

There is NO COMPULSION..folks....split your hairs or split the Nitnem Banis...( yes banis also get split..some like five..others love seven..and yet others even more as daily Nitnem...)...or have Split "personalities"....just DO IT !cheerleadercheerleaderswordfightwelcomemunda:redturban::blueturban::happysingh::singhsippingcoffee:

 

[spnadmin]

Gyani ji

I detest those endless replies on facebook that say "U r rite veer ji!" But my take on what you said U R RITE VEER JI.

The important thing is to begin...not only to begin but to take steps, even if they are baby steps...and stay within the clean cut boundaries of gurbani ...everything else is either icing on the cake, or too much to digest, according to the individual.

 

[Siri Kamala]

Can someone direct me to where in Gurbani it specifically says we should not cut hair?

I see all manner of exhortations against "matted" hair, both in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and in the Dasam Granth, but nothing at all about cutting hair. What am I missing? Thanks!
animatedkhanda1

 

[spnadmin]

Sri Kamala ji

There is an unforgettable scene in the movie Apostle where Robert Duvall spars with another true-believer. The two old-time religionists vie for dominance throwing one line from the Bible after another at one another, in competition. If I can find a video clip of the scene I will post it here. I bring up this image because the Hebrew and Christian scriptures are used often as quick reminders of how to live in grace or wander in sin. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not such a scripture, and it is often so demoralizing to read someone using one or another tuk to prove the high ground in a debate about living in grace or wandering in evil. It indeed is just like the scene from Apostle.

The way to read Guru Granth is to take the full measure of all of what it offers about a subject -- such as hair. The shabads as a whole put grace and evil into a dharmic context. Looking at all the shabads each contributes another facet of understanding of the Gurmukh's way. One tuk or one shabad will not do it. Let me share just one that puts hair into context, and we can discuss it.



ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥
guramukh madhhusoodhan nisathaarae ||
गुरमुखि मधुसूदनु निसतारे ॥
The Gurmukhs are emancipated by the Lord.


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
गुरमुखि संगी क्रिसन मुरारे ॥
The Lord Krishna becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.


ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
दइआल दमोदरु गुरमुखि पाईऐ होरतु कितै न भाती जीउ ॥२॥
The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||


ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀ ਕੇਸਵ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
निरहारी केसव निरवैरा ॥
He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.

ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
कोटि जना जा के पूजहि पैरा ॥
Millions of people worship His Feet.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
गुरमुखि हिरदै जा कै हरि हरि सोई भगतु इकाती जीउ ॥३॥
He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
amogh dharasan baeanth apaaraa ||
अमोघ दरसन बेअंत अपारा ॥
Forever fruitful is the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; He is Infinite and Incomparable.


ਵਡ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਸਦਾ ਦਾਤਾਰਾ ॥
vadd samarathh sadhaa dhaathaaraa ||
वड समरथु सदा दातारा ॥
He is Awesome and All-powerful; He is forever the Great Giver.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੀਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਗਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਰਲੀ ਜਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੬॥੧੩॥
guramukh naam japeeai thith thareeai gath naanak viralee jaathee jeeo ||4||6||13||
गुरमुखि नामु जपीऐ तितु तरीऐ गति नानक विरली जाती जीउ ॥४॥६॥१३॥
As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and you shall be carried across. O Nanak, rare are those who know this state! ||4||6||13||

First, He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate. The Gurmukh referred to here is Waheguru whose image is radiant and the wondrous and beautiful hair gives the image of Him a numinous quality, above hatred. The idea then is to assimilate to this numinous quality by becoming a Gurmukh, by filling our hearts with the numinous Lord. He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3|| In this state, one knows the Naam and is carried across the terrible world ocean, As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and you shall be carried across. O Nanak, rare are those who know this state! ||4||6||13||


Guruji will never say, You should not cut your hair. Rather, in this instance the qualities of godliness are signaled by the image of "wondrous" hair. Now my one effort here is paltry, because it fails to bring all the shabads together in one place to see how their meaning complements one vs. the other. That is why daily reading of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is so important to get the big picture.

 

[Siri Kamala]

wahkaur ~ That is most excellent insight, spnadmin ji! Would love to see the Duvall clip if you should be able to find it.

It seems very true, though, does it not, that for many Sikhs the keeping of kesh is sort of a... litmus test... of one's authentic Sikhness. Almost as if to say that is the starting point, and if one is not leaving one's hair untouched, all the rest is moot -- that person cannot call themselves a Sikh.

There also seems to be a lot of store set on the 52 Commandments of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but I do not have a sense of a) the value/priority appropriately given to these 52 Commandments, either individually or as a whole compared to what we read in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, nor b) how normative these commandments were intended to be (i.e. do all 52 apply equally to all people of all nations for all time? Were some only intended to apply to some people, or some nations, or for some limited period of time?)

I'm trying to get a sense of what may have been simply appropriate for a given context but which is not really *essential* to manifesting one's Sikh faith. It's all so new and overwhelming that my powers of discernment fail me much of the time... :06: :52: :hmm:

 

[spnadmin]

The site you give for the 52 Commandments of Guru Gobind Singh is a "Sikh" site that posts much inaccurate material, and material that is often heavily infused with "sanatan" i.e., Brahminical leanings. The 52 commandments themselves have not withstood the scrutiny of historians.

A valuable collection of criticisms can be found at the allaboutsikhs.com site which I find to be trustworthy.Here is a link to an SPN discussion on the matter. You will notice that one of the early Posters could not see any credible way Guru Gobind Singh would issue an order in the name of Ganesh.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/21223-52-hukams-guru-gobind-singh-ji-2.html

There are a number of rehats written alleging to represent the hukamnamas of Guru Gobind Singh, of which I have 5 or 6 saved on my computer. If they are authentic at all, they were written by Sikh leaders during the period of the missls, following the death of Guru Gobind Singh, when the Sikh quom re-organized after significant decimation by the Persians. The only one that has more credence is written by Bhai Nan Lal. It is often referred to as Gospel by sects within Sikhism. Thus they are not now nor were they ever normative.

 

[Siri Kamala]

kudihug THANK YOU, Mata spnadmin ji! This is fabulous. And I feel quite relieved.

What of the Dasam Granth? How does that figure into the picture?

 

[findingmyway]

Siri Kamala ji,
This part of the forum is a mine of information on this topic:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth/

 

[Siri Kamala]

Oh, wow findingmyway Ji -- my head hurts just looking at the sheer volume of information there.

In thumbing my way through the (online English version) of the Dasam Granth I was able to find, I was puzzled by the many references to Vishnu and thought (imagine Jerry Seinfeld's voice here) "Heeeeey... WAIT just-a-second here..." Because it did not sound very...Sikh to me.

So to get more to the heart of the matter I am seeking to discern, when people say "Study Gurbani," obviously that means study the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but what *else* does "Gurbani" include for the purposes of most Sikhs?

 

[findingmyway]

Siri Kamala ji,
For me personally the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is all I need. However, this is off topic for this thread so if you desire we can continue this discussion in another thread.
Thanks,
Jasleen

 

[Ambarsaria]

wahkaur ~ That is most excellent insight, spnadmin ji! Would love to see the Duvall clip if you should be able to find it.

It seems very true, though, does it not, that for many Sikhs the keeping of kesh is sort of a... litmus test... of one's authentic Sikhness. Almost as if to say that is the starting point, and if one is not leaving one's hair untouched, all the rest is moot -- that person cannot call themselves a Sikh.

There also seems to be a lot of store set on the 52 Commandments of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but I do not have a sense of a) the value/priority appropriately given to these 52 Commandments, either individually or as a whole compared to what we read in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, nor b) how normative these commandments were intended to be (i.e. do all 52 apply equally to all people of all nations for all time? Were some only intended to apply to some people, or some nations, or for some limited period of time?)

I'm trying to get a sense of what may have been simply appropriate for a given context but which is not really *essential* to manifesting one's Sikh faith. It's all so new and overwhelming that my powers of discernment fail me much of the time... :06: :52: :hmm:

Siri Kamala ji I hope the following is of some help.

The practical sikhism has been described as sant-sipahi. A saint and a soldier in that order. This duality can be associated with some liberties as spiritual and worldly affairs.

The duality concept also goes back to the miri-piri (worldly-saint) as per association with Guru Hargobind ji.

Guru Gobind Singh ji, formalized and established Khalsa and finalized the formation and reality of amritdhari and baptized panth.

In my mind, Guru Granth Sahib ji is an essential element of sikh spiritual life and soul food. However it is not a literal or verbatim description of miri (worldly) or sipahi or panthic rules book. The panthic as one sikh associated to many is through baptization and Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM).

SRM is the best guiding principles established around 1945 to address some salient spiritual and personal (like nitnem, personal behavior, etc.) like in the below,

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_one.html

What complements the personal is the panthic portion in the rest of SRM as for example in the following and reading further through the SRM,

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_three_chap_four.htm

Hope it is of some help.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: In terms of your inquiry in the following,

"So to get more to the heart of the matter I am seeking to discern, when people say "Study Gurbani," obviously that means study the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but what *else* does "Gurbani" include for the purposes of most Sikhs?"

There is only Guru Granth Sahib ji but I am a novice in the knowledge of punjabi words and vocabulary as embodied in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. What else one can do perhaps is read Viakhia treatises. I don't know off hand to the best and specially ones in English but perhaps others can guide. One also has to remember that context is as important as the original words, sentences and stanzas. I have seen lot of

swordfight when people focus on individual words or sentences to prove their points or show the guiding light. Guru Granth Sahib ji is too rich too complete as a whole to be subjected to such use. This is just my belief.
​

 

[findingmyway]

Ambarsaria ji,
I agree that the SRM is important but I wouldn't put it into the category of gurbani, more as supporting documents.
Please can I request all to return to the original topic here and take up further discussions in a new thread or a relevant older thread.
Thank you kindly :happykaur: