Who Does Sri Guru Granth Sahib Address Most?

[prakash.s.bagga]

Prakash ji,
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ

What are your thoughts on the shabad I posted by Guru Arjan Dev ji on page 1082-3. That is the strongest support for my views as I cannot disagree with Guru Arjan Dev ji.

If by Gur jot we mean the "essence of Guru", the "wisdom of the Guru". Then this is no doubt Vishnu, the supreme reality. The Guru is trying to get us to see this reality.

What is the difference between Parbrahmn, Parmesar and Satiguru?

The only difference between Hari Naam and Ram Naam is the sound of the words. The mind has to be trained to focus on the these words as Guru ji says Dhun meh dhyan dhyan meh janiya gurmukh akat kahani

Ambarsaria ji,
I was thinking of that shabad when I said that this discussions is trivial. These are not some distant Pandits but you and I who are reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and discussing it. If we do not meditate, develop wisdom and develop a virtuous character along with teh discussion then the discussion is undoubtedly fruitless.

Very clearly the Sabad starts as
ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥

अचुत पारब्रहम परमेसुर अंतरजामी ॥

Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī.

The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.




All the references given in this Sabad refer to Imperishable PARBRAHM and Omniscient PARMESAR only.
Prakash.S.Bagga.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Prakash ji,
If you continue reading, Achut, Parbrahmn, Parmesar, Antaryami is described as the lifter of mount Govardhan, as Murli Manohar, as Narsingh, as Raam Chandra, Lakshmi's husband, etc with four arms carrying a conch, mace, chakram and lotus. Who could that be?

Lucky Singh ji
I don't get it either. Perhaps for many God has become so abstract that any form ascribed to Him seems like backward and primitive thinking or something. Who knows?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Bhagat Singh Ji,
In all the attributes which have been dipicted as some form in Hindu philosophy,GuRu ji is telling that it is all thru GuR JoTi as Karta Purakhu. The significant is GuR JoTi in all attributed forms.Therefore Gurbanee directs us to connect with this ABNAASEE GuR JoTi thru its HARi NAAMu /RAM NAAMu.. This is the cRUX of Gurbanee understanding.

Consider a quote as
"Bhaee Re GuR Binu Giyanu Na Hoee,Pucho Brahma Narade Bed Biyase Koee" Sri Raag

It should be important to understand why GuRu ji is telling us to Ask Narad(Son of Brahma) and Bed Biyas who compiled Hidu Scriptures with grammar.What is that to be asked or known from them.?
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

BHAGAT SINGH Ji,
What is real concept of VISHANu in Hindu philosophy very few Hindu brothers might be Knowing.The actual meaning of VISHANu is First ANNu of VISHWA or VISHANu is the first NUCLEUS of the UNIVERSE.That is why VISHANu is taken as the ULTIMATE GOD in Hindu Philosophy.And the Ten Avtars of VISHANu are considered for complete creation of the Universe. Further in Hindu Philosophy there are 1008 Attribute Names of VISHANu.All these attributes are virtually a sort of waves and or vibrations taking part in the creation/sustenance and destuction of the Universe in cycle ways at different periods of time.
But the ULTIMATE of all attributes including creation of VISHANu is thru GuR JoTi (Prabhu) only.That is all Gurbanee is related to. When anyone worships GuR JoTi
All attributes are covered under GuR JoTi only.One need not be confused by the several attributes So Person is exclusively connected to the real Creator of the Universe.
These are just few thoughts for your consideration and understand the significance of GuR JoTi as Abnaasee Prabhu only.
Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[mandemeet]

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Time for some heavy-lifting and cognitive dissonance. Ready?

Some basic theology of Sikhism:
1. There is the Ultimate Reality, it is both Sargun (form) and Nirgun (formless) - by what name is this referred to in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Brahmn (not Brahma) Parbrahmn, Parmesar, Bhagwan, Ishwar, Akal/Aad Purakh, Hari (Vishnu/Krishna Murare) and Ram Chandra. The latter two being the most prominent of all names of the Ultimate Reality. So the mythology that is revered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is that of Vishnu, as he is considered the Ultimate Reality. Now since Vishnu is the Ultimate Reality. All of the below are actually referring to the Ultimate Reality, Vishnu.
Quote:
Bhagat singh ji
There is no heavy lifting; you are fishing from the surface forgetting that on the surface only dead fish come.
What you think doesn’t become a final fact by referring those names prevailed during or before Bhagatas and the Gurus times. Let me answer your misconception about ultimate reality. In Rag Wadhanse; Guru Amar Das ji has made it clear to his Sikhs that we are not after Vishnu, as the Ultimate reality, because the one who is still in incarnating, how can he guide us?
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ॥
Amriṯ nām saḏ mīṯẖā lāgā gur sabḏīsāḏ ā▫i▫ā.
The Name Nectar is ever sweet unto me and by Guru's instruction I have enjoyed its relish.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ = ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ। ਸਦ = ਸਦਾ। ਸਬਦੀ = ਸ਼ਬਦੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਸਾਦੁ = ਸੁਆਦ, ਆਨੰਦ।
ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸੁਆਦ ਆਉਣ ਲੱਗ ਪਿਆ ਤੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਸਦਾ ਮਿੱਠਾ ਲੱਗਣ ਲੱਗ ਪਿਆ।

ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
Sacẖī baṇī sahj samāṇī har jī▫o man vasā▫i▫ā. ||1||
Through the True hymns of the Guru, man is merged into equipoise and the reverend Lord is enshrined in the mind.
ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ = ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਹਰੀ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ। ਸਹਜਿ = ਆਤਮਕ ਅਡੋਲਤਾ ਵਿਚ। ਮਨਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ॥੧॥
ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਆਤਮਕ ਅਡੋਲਤਾ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਲੀਨਤਾ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰੋ ਲਿਆ ॥੧॥

ਹਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥
Har kar kirpā saṯgurū milā▫i▫ā.
Showing His mercy, God has made me meet the True Guru.
ਕਰਿ = ਕਰ ਕੇ।
ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ,

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Pūrai saṯgur har nām ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Through the perfect Satguru I have contemplated over the God's Name. Pause.
ਸਤਗੁਰਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥
ਉਸ ਨੇ ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨਾ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ॥

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰਗਾਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥
Barahmai beḏ baṇī pargāsī mā▫i▫ā moh pasārā.
Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, however, he extended the love of mammon.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ = ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਨੇ। ਪਸਾਰਾ = ਖਿਲਾਰਾ।
(ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਨੇ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰਗਟ ਕੀਤੀ ਪਰ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਭੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦਾ ਖਿਲਾਰਾ ਹੀ ਖਿਲਾਰਿਆ।
ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਵਰਤੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
Mahāḏe▫o gi▫ānī varṯai gẖar āpṇaiṯāmas bahuṯ ahaʼnkārā. ||2||
The seer Shiva remain absorbed in himself and he is engrossed in excessive wrath and pride.
ਮਹਾਦੇਉ = ਸ਼ਿਵ। ਵਰਤੈ = ਮਸਤ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਘਰਿ = ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ। ਤਾਮਸੁ = ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ॥੨॥
(ਕਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ) ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਭੀ ਬੜਾ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਤੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ (ਦੱਸੀਦਾ) ਹੈ ॥੨॥
ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ॥
Kisan saḏā avṯārī rūḏẖā kiṯ lagṯarai sansārā.
Vishnu is ever busy in reincarnating himself. So by whose association is the world to be emancipated?
ਕਿਸਨੁ = ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂ। ਰੂਧਾ = ਰੁੱਝਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ = ਕਿਸ ਦੀ ਚਰਨੀਂ ਲੱਗ ਕੇ?
ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਧਾਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਰੁੱਝਾ ਹੋਇਆ (ਦੱਸਿਆ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ) ਹੈ ਤਾਂ (ਦੱਸੋ) ਜਗਤ ਕਿਸ ਦੇ ਚਰਨੀਂ ਲੱਗ ਕੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਾਗਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘੇ?

As per your words, Vishnu is Ultimate reality, right? The Guru says, he is cannot help in our pursuits because he hasn’t obtained anything and keeps coming and going; isn’t it enough to reject those myths you see through a new window?; why the Guru is rejecting the so called Ultimate reality( as per your views)?
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਜੁਗ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹ ਗੁਬਾਰਾ ॥੩॥
Gurmukẖ gi▫ān raṯe jug anṯar cẖūkai moh gubārā. ||3||
The Guru-ward are imbued with gnosis in this age and they are rid of the darkness of worldly love.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ। ਗਿਆਨਿ = ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਚ, ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ (ਦੇ ਆਨੰਦ) ਵਿਚ। ਜੁਗ ਅੰਤਰਿ = ਜ਼ਮਾਨੇ ਵਿਚ, ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ। ਗੁਬਾਰਾ = ਘੁੱਪ ਹਨੇਰਾ ॥੩॥
ਜੇਹੜੇ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈ ਕੇ (ਗੁਰੂ ਤੋਂ ਮਿਲੇ ਆਤਮ) ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਮੋਹ ਦਾ ਘੁੱਪ ਹਨੇਰਾ ਦੂਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੩॥
ਸਤਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
Saṯgur sevā ṯe nisṯārā gurmukẖ ṯarai sansārā.
By the True Guru's service, emancipation, is attained, and through the Guru, the mortal crosses the world ocean.
ਤੇ = ਤੋਂ। ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ = ਪਾਰ-ਉਤਾਰਾ।
ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਸੇਵਾ-ਭਗਤੀ ਦੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਪਾਰ-ਉਤਾਰਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਹੀ ਜਗਤ ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਸਮੁੰਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਰ ਲੰਘਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰਾ ॥੪॥
Sācẖai nā▫e raṯe bairāgī pā▫in mokẖ ḏu▫ārā. ||4||
The world-renouncers are imbued with the True Name and they attain the door of salvation.
ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ = ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ। ਬੈਰਾਗੀ = ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ। ਪਾਇਨਿ = ਪਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮੋਖ = ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ॥੪॥
ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਹੋਏ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ ਦਾ ਦਰਵਾਜ਼ਾ ਲੱਭ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ ॥੪॥
Only way out is to get drenched in eternal Akalpurakh“through Satiguru” not Vishnu or Ram Chandra.

ਏਕੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤੈਸਭ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ॥
Ėko sacẖ varṯai sabẖ anṯar sabẖnākare parṯipālā.
The unique True Lord is contained within all and He cherishes everyone.
ਸਚੁ = ਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ। ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ = ਪਾਲਣਾ।
ਸਾਰੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੀ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹੀ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ, ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦੀ ਪਾਲਣਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਦੀਵਾਨੁ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੫॥੫॥
Nānak ikas bin mai avar na jāṇāsabẖnā ḏīvān ḏa▫i▫ālā. ||5||5||
Nanak, without the one God, I know not another. He is the merciful master of all.
ਦੀਵਾਨੁ = ਆਸਰਾ, ਹਾਕਮ ਜਿਸ ਪਾਸ ਫ਼ਰਿਆਦ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾ ਸਕੇ। ਨ ਜਾਣਾ = ਮੈਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦਾ, ਨ ਜਾਣਾਂ ॥੫॥੫॥
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਇੱਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮੈਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਨੂੰ (ਉਸ ਵਰਗਾ) ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦਾ, ਉਹੀ ਦਇਆ ਦਾ ਘਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸਭ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਆਸਰਾ-ਪਰਨਾ ਹੈ ॥੫
Very carefully note down this phrase” ਇਕਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ “ except the Support of all, Akalpurakh.
Regards
mandemeet

 

[mandemeet]

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From this Ultimate Reality arises the creator - Brahma, sustainer - also called Vishnu and destroyer - Mahadev.
Page 908, Line 1
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ ॥੧੨॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस इक मूरति आपे करता कारी ॥१२॥
Barahmā bisan mahes ik mūraṯ āpe karṯā kārī. ||12||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are manifestations of the One God. He Himself is the Doer of deeds. ||12||
When the Ultimate Reality manifests, it does so as three Gunas/qualities -Rajas, Sattva and Tamas. Thus these three aspects of the Ultimate Reality are under the influence of these Gunas/qualities.



In above verse, it is stated that it is not brahma, Vishnu and shiva that execute their different assignments but the Creator Himself does that; note down the word “AAPe and Kaari”; Aape is related with Karta (Creator) not with Vishnu or Shiva. He is form of all these assignments, means onlt He does all which is said to be done by Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Here the Guru does not believe in this concept of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, rather he is rejecting it. All is created by the Creator, but the entire created ones cannot become the Creator in totality. When “one Murat” is said in context of them, their existence is voided. You are trying to prove that these individuals are indeed the Creator whom Bhagatas and the Gurus worshiped.
Quote
ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
अचुत पारब्रहम परमेसुर अंतरजामी ॥
Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī.
The Supreme Lord God is imperishable, the Transcendent Lord, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
मधुसूदन दामोदर सुआमी ॥
Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su▫āmī.
Madhusudan - Krishna
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
रिखीकेस गोवरधन धारी मुरली मनोहर हरि रंगा ॥१॥
Rikẖīkes govarḏẖan ḏẖārī murlī manohar har rangā. ||1||
(Krishna lifts Govardhan in his mythology. He is the Murli Manohar, the flute player.)
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
मोहन माधव क्रिस्न मुरारे ॥
Mohan māḏẖav krisan murāre.
Mohan (Krishna), Madhav (Krishna), Krishna Murare
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
जगदीसुर हरि जीउ असुर संघारे ॥
Jagḏīsur har jī▫o asur sangẖāre.
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
जगजीवन अबिनासी ठाकुर घट घट वासी है संगा ॥२॥
Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā. ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
धरणीधर ईस नरसिंघ नाराइण ॥
Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā▫iṇ.
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
दाड़ा अग्रे प्रिथमि धराइण ॥
Ḏāṛā agre paritham ḏẖarā▫iṇ.
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
बावन रूपु कीआ तुधु करते सभ ही सेती है चंगा ॥३॥
Bāvan rūp kī▫ā ṯuḏẖ karṯe sabẖ hī seṯī hai cẖanga. ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
स्री रामचंद जिसु रूपु न रेखिआ ॥
Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā.
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
बनवाली चक्रपाणि दरसि अनूपिआ ॥
Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi▫ā.
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
सहस नेत्र मूरति है सहसा इकु दाता सभ है मंगा ॥४॥
Sahas neṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
भगति वछलु अनाथह नाथे ॥
Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthe.
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
गोपी नाथु सगल है साथे ॥
Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthe.
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
बासुदेव निरंजन दाते बरनि न साकउ गुण अंगा ॥५॥
Bāsuḏev niranjan ḏāṯe baran na sāka▫o guṇ angā. ||5||
O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
मुकंद मनोहर लखमी नाराइण ॥
Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā▫iṇ.
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
द्रोपती लजा निवारि उधारण ॥
Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ.
Savior of Dropadi's honor. (Krishna)

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
कमलाकंत करहि कंतूहल अनद बिनोदी निहसंगा ॥६॥
Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
अमोघ दरसन आजूनी स्मभउ ॥
Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa▫o.
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.
Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?
VISHNU IS AN INCARNATING FIGURE WELL DEFINED BY THIRD NANAK IN ABOVE GIVEN QUOTE, BUT YOU ARE GUESSING (who knows?, No, it is well known)

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥
अकाल मूरति जिसु कदे नाही खउ ॥
Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏe nāhī kẖa▫o.
His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥
अबिनासी अबिगत अगोचर सभु किछु तुझ ही है लगा ॥७॥
Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7||
O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7|| Page 1082
( I have removed some part of the shabda as it is getting long, there is another Shabda by sri Guru Arjun Dev ji on 896 to 897 in which the Guru calls him with many names and in the end he also says
ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
Mihar ḏa▫i▫ā kar karnaihār. Bẖagaṯ banḏagī ḏėh sirjaṇhār. Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram. Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
.
Basically, Allahu, The Transcendent the Creator and the Merciful is only the same. I knew you would come up with these names; it was already told you that all deeds are credited to All Pervading Akalpurakh; no, you want to attach the Creator to those individuals; it is called surface fishing; if we agree with you for a moment; then “a bait used for the fish”is also called the Creator; should we say the Guru is worshiping “a bait”? do you understand what I am referring to? Let me give you quote:
On 23
ਆਪੇ ਮਾਛੀ ਮਛੁਲੀ ਆਪੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਜਾਲੁ ॥
Āpe mācẖẖī macẖẖulī āpe pāṇī jāl.
He Himself is the fisherman and the fish and Himself the water and the net.
ਮਾਛੀ = ਮੱਛੀਆਂ ਫੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ।
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮੱਛੀਆਂ ਫੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ, ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮੱਛੀ ਹੈ, ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਣੀ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਮੱਛੀ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ) ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਲ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਵਿਚ ਮੱਛੀ ਫੜੀਦੀ ਹੈ)।
ਆਪੇ ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਲੁ ॥੨॥
Āpe jāl maṇkaṛā āpe anḏar lāl. ||2||
He Himself is the metal ball of the net and Himself the bait within.
ਜਾਲ ਮਣਕੜਾ = ਜਾਲ ਦਾ ਮਣਕਾ {ਲੋਹੇ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੇ ਮਣਕੇ ਜੋ ਜਾਲ ਨੂੰ ਭਾਰਾ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਹੇਠਲੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਲਾਏ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤਾਕਿ ਜਾਲ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਡੁਬਿਆ ਰਹੇ}। ਲਾਲੁ = ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਬੋਟੀ (ਮੱਛੀ ਨੂੰ ਫਸਾਣ ਲਈ)।੨।
ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਜਾਲ ਦੇ ਮਣਕੇ ਹੈ, ਆਪ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਜਾਲ ਵਿਚ ਮਾਸ ਦੀ ਬੋਟੀ ਹੈ (ਜੋ ਮੱਛੀ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਲ ਵੱਲ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਦੀ ਹੈ) ॥੨॥
ਆਪੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿਰੰਗੁਲਾ ਸਖੀਏ ਮੇਰਾ ਲਾਲੁ ॥
Āpe baho biḏẖ rangulā sakẖī▫e merālāl.
My maid! my Beloved is in every way playful.
ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ = ਕਈ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ। ਰੰਗੁਲਾ = ਚੋਜ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਲਾਲੁ = ਪਿਆਰਾ।
ਹੇ ਸਹੇਲੀਏ! ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕਈ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਚੋਜ ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ
Bhagats Singh ji, it is vast concept, many people have problem to understanding it and they run literally after Name - references and start judging the Gurus and Bhagatas. When the Guru rejects a Devta compared to Gurmukh, when the Guru rejects ability of Vishnu as savior, why a Sikh should continue stressing the idea that goes against the Gurus and Bhagatas? In the above quote Akalpurakh is also described as “Jaal Mankra and Lal” should we say the Creator is bait in totality or should take it as “JETA KITA TETA NAON. You can think better than this. People were loaded with so many myths already, why the Guru would do the same thing? Actually they lifted that load off the shoulders of the Sikhs and you are trying to put it back on them just because you cannot understand reason of these references.
quote
“ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥
vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o.
Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o.

ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
कवल नैन मधुर बैन कोटि सैन संग सोभ कहत मा जसोद जिसहि दही भातु खाहि जीउ ॥
Kaval nain maḏẖur bain kot sain sang sobẖ kahaṯ mā jasoḏ jisahi ḏahī bẖāṯ kẖāhi jī▫o.
You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

ਦੇਖਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਅਤਿ ਅਨੂਪੁ ਮੋਹ ਮਹਾ ਮਗ ਭਈ ਕਿੰਕਨੀ ਸਬਦ ਝਨਤਕਾਰ ਖੇਲੁ ਪਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
देखि रूपु अति अनूपु मोह महा मग भई किंकनी सबद झनतकार खेलु पाहि जीउ ॥
Ḏekẖ rūp aṯ anūp moh mahā mag bẖa▫ī kinknī sabaḏ jẖanaṯkār kẖel pāhi jī▫o.
Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

ਕਾਲ ਕਲਮ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਥਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਉਨੁ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਕੈ ਈਸੁ ਬੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੁ ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਧਰਤ ਹੀਐ ਚਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
काल कलम हुकमु हाथि कहहु कउनु मेटि सकै ईसु बम्यु ग्यानु ध्यानु धरत हीऐ चाहि जीउ ॥
Kāl kalam hukam hāth kahhu ka▫un met sakai īs bamm▫yu ga▫yān ḏẖeān ḏẖaraṯ hī▫ai cẖāhi jī▫o.
Death's pen and command are in Your hands. Tell me, who can erase it? Shiva and Brahma yearn to enshrine Your spiritual wisdom in their hearts.

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥੬॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥१॥६॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||1||6||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||1||6||

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਪਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧ ਨਿਰੀਕਾਰ ਬੇਸੁਮਾਰ ਸਰਬਰ ਕਉ ਕਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
राम नाम परम धाम सुध बुध निरीकार बेसुमार सरबर कउ काहि जीउ ॥
Rām nām param ḏẖām suḏẖ buḏẖ nirīkār besumār sarbar ka▫o kāhi jī▫o.
You are blessed with the Lord's Name, the supreme mansion, and clear understanding. You are the Formless, Infinite Lord; who can compare to You?

ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
सुथर चित भगत हित भेखु धरिओ हरनाखसु हरिओ नख बिदारि जीउ ॥
Suthar cẖiṯ bẖagaṯ hiṯ bẖekẖ ḏẖari▫o harnākẖas hari▫o nakẖ biḏār jī▫o.
For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
संख चक्र गदा पदम आपि आपु कीओ छदम अपर्मपर पारब्रहम लखै कउनु ताहि जीउ ॥
Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā paḏam āp āp kī▫o cẖẖaḏam aprampar pārbarahm lakẖai ka▫un ṯāhi jī▫o.
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your symbols of power (ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ - conch, chakram, mace and lotus - icons of Vishnu) , You deceived Baliraja (Ram Chandra decieves bali in order to bring Sugreve to power); who can know You?

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
सति साचु स्री निवासु आदि पुरखु सदा तुही वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहिगुरू वाहि जीउ ॥२॥७॥
Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||2||7||
You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||2||7||
Bhatas bani is simply a eulogy of the Gurus and Akalpurakh, it is not used to verify any fact; if a mother says, “my son is a king” in love, does her son in fact becomes a king or does her saying becomes a fact? Or, it is just a mother’s way of praising her son. Who remain on surface, they may confuse and think how her son can be a king, but those who understand it and deem it as a eulogy, they don’t get confused and don’t confuse others.
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Bhagat kabir Ji so clearly and transparently declares that all the public cry our..Raam Raam raam....BUT dear friends..there is a very clear and HUGE difference between what the "public" cry out Raam Raam and MY RAAM....One Raam is a Human..a person a... a Dramabaaz...an ACTOR...the OTHER Raam is the All Pervading CREATOR.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
FALSE
This is simply a misunderstanding of Bhagat Kabir's shabad. Raam was never believed to be human by any of the Bhagats or Gurus. Especially in light of the shabads above. Let me remind in the words of 5th Master: "You are the Ram Chandra with no form or feature. Adorned in flowers and wielding the chakram, your form is incomparably beautiful." Raam Chandra is the Divine. He is Akal Purakh.
Indeed, but you are playing with the words; go back and read what you wrote; you are boxing Akalpurakh in Ram Chandra, a son of Dasrath. In Gurbani, that Ram is the one who is beyond birth; he never takes birth but manifests in his creation and it is his manifest that is called :him: ; Ram who cries, Krishna who forcibly takes other person’s woman and Vishnu who keeps incarnating are not worshiped by the Gurus and Bhagatas. Why these references are given; it is very simple thing; Bhagtas and the Gurus’ followers came from two religions: Hinduism and Islam; therefore, Bhagtas and the Gurus address their beliefs, and the names they used to get liberation or help to guide them toward All Pervading Akalpurakh; even Allah and Khudai words are used by Bhagatas and the Gurus to address the same RAM; they tell them that there is only one DOER and that is Akalpurakh who is beyond birth and death and permeates in all and only to him you should stick to instead of all those figures who themselves failed to know his infinity or whom you think resides up in the sky. It was hard to break those followers of Hinduism or Islam if they wouldn’t refer to them to introduce them to “All Pervading Akalpurakh, the Ultimate reality. Using words like “kete” for Ram, Brahma obviously indicates that they were not revered.

 

[mandemeet]

Quote

Let's look a this shabad and weed out of the ignorance propagated by it's popular mistranslation.
Actually you also do the same, I shall point out at the end:

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan (chant/repeat) mėh (inside) bẖeḏ (difference) hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.

Kabir says there is a difference in how you chant "Ram", and this is to be considered.

Look at the word “Bhed” it is not difference but a secret. What is that the one idea to keep in the mind? It is explained in slok number 191.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī (that very) rām sabẖai (everyone) kahėh so▫ī (that very) ka▫uṯakhār (miracle workers). ||190||

The same Ram is chanted by everyone (Saints) and the same Ram is chanted by miracle workers, those who (want to) obtain the various supernatural powers, ridhiyan sidhiyan.
||190||
Meaning: The one who chanted to obtain supernatural powers, was lost in the many powers, was engrossed in Maya. The one who chanted with true faith and not for some reward was merged in the One and liberated.
||191||
That is no word used for ridhya sidhya, it is about those who stage dramas about Ram Chandra and sing his songs.
So you think you are interpreting right? Where is a reference of Ridhya sidhyan in the above line? Please tell me, if it is not there, then why are you assuming it? Well, someone explained you, right? You are wrong and who tells so you is also wrong, because there were a few sects who were into such things like sidhya nidhya; otherwise, many people were worshiping Ram Chandra, the son of Dasrath by saying “Jai Ram Ki” That is what Bhagat Kabir ji refers to.


Essence:
The idea of chanting and training the mind to obtain supernatural pwoers was/is very prevalent in India. (Whether or not it is possible) Kabir says, those who chant to obtain some goal of receiving supernatural powers, are lost in the world, in the "many", in the powers and their displays. There is a difference in how you chant and that is in the intention. The intentions are important. Are you chanting to gain something out of it or chanting with pure devotion?
Bhagat singh ji, you are again wrong in interpreting the above sloka; before I address that let me remind you in what Bhagat really believes in; no Guru or Bhagat leads the follower to utter Name of Akalpurakh to obtain ridhya or sidhya; it is all about liberation from Maya. When one gets liberation, as per them, all these so called ridhya sidhya are obtained just as “lakh khushya patshayeen je Satiguru nadr kere” Below look to whom Bhagat Kabir leads to:
340
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖeṯahu cẖiṯkārī.
Leave the painting and remember the painter.
ਤਜਿ = ਛੱਡ ਕੇ। ਚੇਤਹੁ = ਚੇਤੇ ਰੱਖੋ, ਯਾਦ ਕਰੋ। ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰਕਾਰ, ਤਸਵੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਾ।
(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਇਸ ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦੇ ਮੋਹ) ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਚੇਤੇ ਰੱਖ;
ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਇਹੈ ਅਵਝੇਰਾ ॥
Cẖiṯar bacẖiṯar ihai avjẖerā.
This wonderous painting is now, the bone of contention.
ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ = {ਸੰ: ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ} ਰੰਗਾ-ਰੰਗ ਦੀ, ਬਹੁਤ ਸੁੰਦਰ, ਹੈਰਾਨ ਕਰ ਦੇਣ ਵਾਲੀ, ਮੋਹ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੀ। ਅਵਝੇਰਾ = ਝੰਬੇਲਾ।
(ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਵੱਡਾ) ਝੰਬੇਲਾ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਰੂਪ) ਤਸਵੀਰ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਮੋਹ ਲੈਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੈ।
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੨॥
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖiṯ rākẖ cẖiṯerā. ||12||
Dismiss picture and keep thy mind on the Painter.
ਚਿਤੇਰਾ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਾ ॥੧੨॥
(ਸੋ, ਇਸ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਣ ਲਈ) ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦਾ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ) ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਤਸਵੀਰ ਬਣਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਪਣੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੋ ਰੱਖ ॥੧੨॥
Obviously Kabir is not a believer of Ram Chandra of Dasrath as you advocate in your posts (by calling him formless and misinterpreting Guru Arjun Dev ji’s Vaak. Now read the same sloka keeping in your mind what Kabir believes in:
ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho (chant/repeat) kahibe (in how you chant) māhi (inside) bibek (bichar).

Kabir says, chant "Ramay Ram" but keep in mind that

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One merged (ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ - verb) in the many, and one merged in the one.
Kabir is talking about Ram; therefore, ”Ek” stands for Ram and “Anek” for bodies and the second “Ek” for Ram again and the third Ek for one body. There is” one Ram” who permeates in all (bodies) but the other Ram was only in one body . If you don’t want to take“ek” as a body, you can still think that that Ram (son of Dasrath) merged in One All Pervading Akalpurakh. Difference is made; it is not how Ram is uttered but who is brought in the mind while uttering the word Ram. Gyani Jarnail Singh was totally right. If it was about “how to utter Ram”, Kabir would have given a detail about that too. Do you remember Guru Amar Das’s vaak” Ram Ram sabh ko kahai, kayea Ram n hoye?” in that vak how to utter Ram is explained but not in above sloka of Kabir. Before you rush to any judgment about Gurbani, you must also look at the fact toward whom Gurbani leads the followers which it is well defined in it; it is Imperishable Akalpurakh/Prabh/Hari/Naam/ the Creator.” Tere kete namma” clearly states that no name can express the Creator completely. Therefore, no one name, sometime bore by someone in the past, can express Infinity of Akalpurakh. You can keep giving such misinterpreted and incorrect translations without understanding the depth of the contexts, but you cannot ignore the truth about the love of sikhi toward All Pervading Akalpurakh. Your myth window actually misleading; that is all. Remember your statement "Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?? Obviously you dont acknowledge what the Guru says about Vishnu. What a revelation!
Regards
mandemeet

 

[mandemeet]

Quote

Let's look a this shabad and weed out of the ignorance propagated by it's popular mistranslation.
Actually you also do the same, I shall point out at the end:

ਕਬੀਰਰਾਮਕਹਨਮਹਿਭੇਦੁਹੈਤਾਮਹਿਏਕੁਬਿਚਾਰੁ॥
कबीररामकहनमहिभेदुहैतामहिएकुबिचारु॥
Kabīr rām kahan (chant/repeat) mėh (inside) bẖeḏ (difference) hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.

Kabir says there is a difference in how you chant "Ram", and this is to be considered.

Look at the word “Bhed” it is not difference but a secret. What is that the one idea to keep in the mind? It is explained in slok number 191.

ਸੋਈਰਾਮੁਸਭੈਕਹਹਿਸੋਈਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ॥੧੯੦॥
सोईरामुसभैकहहिसोईकउतकहार॥१९०॥
So▫ī (that very) rām sabẖai (everyone) kahėh so▫ī (that very) ka▫uṯakhār (miracle workers). ||190||

The same Ram is chanted by everyone (Saints) and the same Ram is chanted by miracle workers, those who (want to) obtain the various supernatural powers, ridhiyan sidhiyan.
||190||
Meaning: The one who chanted to obtain supernatural powers, was lost in the many powers, was engrossed in Maya. The one who chanted with true faith and not for some reward was merged in the One and liberated.
||191||
That is no word used for ridhya sidhya, it is about those who stage dramas about Ram Chandra and sing his songs.
So you think you are interpreting right? Where is a reference of Ridhya sidhyan in the above line? Please tell me, if it is not there, then why are you assuming it? Well, someone explained you, right? You are wrong and who tells so you is also wrong, because there were a few sects who were into such things like sidhya nidhya; otherwise, many people were worshiping Ram Chandra, the son of Dasrath by saying “Jai Ram Ki” That is what Bhagat Kabir ji refers to.


Essence:
The idea of chanting and training the mind to obtain supernatural pwoers was/is very prevalent in India. (Whether or not it is possible) Kabir says, those who chant to obtain some goal of receiving supernatural powers, are lost in the world, in the "many", in the powers and their displays. There is a difference in how you chant and that is in the intention. The intentions are important. Are you chanting to gain something out of it or chanting with pure devotion?
Bhagat singh ji, you are again wrong in interpreting the above sloka; before I address that let me remind you in what Bhagat really believes in; no Guru or Bhagat leads the follower to utter Name of Akalpurakh to obtain ridhya or sidhya; it is all about liberation from Maya. When one gets liberation, as per them, all these so called ridhya sidhya are obtained just as “lakh khushya patshayeen je Satiguru nadr kere” Below look to whom Bhagat Kabir leads to:
340
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚੇਤਹੁ ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖeṯahu cẖiṯkārī.
Leave the painting and remember the painter.
ਤਜਿ = ਛੱਡਕੇ।ਚੇਤਹੁ = ਚੇਤੇਰੱਖੋ, ਯਾਦਕਰੋ।ਚਿਤਕਾਰੀ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰਕਾਰ, ਤਸਵੀਰਨੂੰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲਾ।
(ਹੇਭਾਈ!) ਇਸਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦੇਮੋਹ) ਨੂੰਛੱਡਕੇਤਸਵੀਰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲੇਨੂੰਚੇਤੇਰੱਖ;
ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਇਹੈ ਅਵਝੇਰਾ ॥
Cẖiṯar bacẖiṯar ihai avjẖerā.
This wonderous painting is now, the bone of contention.
ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ = {ਸੰ: ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ} ਰੰਗਾ-ਰੰਗਦੀ, ਬਹੁਤਸੁੰਦਰ, ਹੈਰਾਨਕਰਦੇਣਵਾਲੀ, ਮੋਹਲੈਣਵਾਲੀ।ਅਵਝੇਰਾ = ਝੰਬੇਲਾ।
(ਕਿਉਂਕਿਵੱਡਾ) ਝੰਬੇਲਾਇਹਹੈਕਿਇਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ-ਰੂਪ) ਤਸਵੀਰਮਨਨੂੰਮੋਹਲੈਣਵਾਲੀਹੈ।
ਤਜਿ ਚਿਤ੍ਰੈ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਖਿ ਚਿਤੇਰਾ ॥੧੨॥
Ŧaj cẖiṯrai cẖiṯ rākẖ cẖiṯerā. ||12||
Dismiss picture and keep thy mind on the Painter.
ਚਿਤੇਰਾ = ਚਿਤ੍ਰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲਾ॥੧੨॥
(ਸੋ, ਇਸਮੋਹਤੋਂਬਚਣਲਈ) ਤਸਵੀਰ (ਦਾਖ਼ਿਆਲ) ਛੱਡਕੇਤਸਵੀਰਬਣਾਉਣਵਾਲੇਵਿਚਆਪਣੇਚਿੱਤਨੂੰਪ੍ਰੋਰੱਖ॥੧੨॥
Obviously Kabir is not a believer of Ram Chandra of Dasrath as you advocate in your posts (by calling him formless and misinterpreting Guru Arjun Dev ji’s Vaak. Now read the same sloka keeping in your mind what Kabir believes in:
ਕਬੀਰਰਾਮੈਰਾਮਕਹੁਕਹਿਬੇਮਾਹਿਬਿਬੇਕ॥
कबीररामैरामकहुकहिबेमाहिबिबेक॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho (chant/repeat) kahibe (in how you chant) māhi (inside) bibek (bichar).

Kabir says, chant "Ramay Ram" but keep in mind that

ਏਕੁਅਨੇਕਹਿਮਿਲਿਗਇਆਏਕਸਮਾਨਾਏਕ॥੧੯੧॥
एकुअनेकहिमिलिगइआएकसमानाएक॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One merged (ਮਿਲਿਗਇਆ - verb) in the many, and one merged in the one.
Kabir is talking about Ram; therefore, ”Ek” stands for Ram and “Anek” for bodies and the second “Ek” for Ram again and the third Ek for one body. There is” one Ram” who permeates in all (bodies) but the other Ram was only in one body . If you don’t want to take“ek” as a body, you can still think that that Ram (son of Dasrath) merged in One All Pervading Akalpurakh. Difference is made; it is not how Ram is uttered but who is brought in the mind while uttering the word Ram. Gyani Jarnail Singh was totally right. If it was about “how to utter Ram”, Kabir would have given a detail about that too. Do you remember Guru Amar Das’s vaak” Ram Ram sabh ko kahai, kayea Ram n hoye?” in that vak how to utter Ram is explained but not in above sloka of Kabir. Before you rush to any judgment about Gurbani, you must also look at the fact toward whom Gurbani leads the followers which it is well defined in it; it is Imperishable Akalpurakh/Prabh/Hari/Naam/ the Creator.” Tere kete namma” clearly states that no name can express the Creator completely. Therefore, no one name, sometime bore by someone in the past, can express Infinity of Akalpurakh. You can keep giving such misinterpreted and incorrect translations without understanding the depth of the contexts, but you cannot ignore the truth about the love of sikhi toward All Pervading Akalpurakh. Your myth window actually misleading; that is all. Remember your statement "Vishnu is Ajuni, who knew?? Obviously you dont acknowledge what the Guru says about Vishnu. What a revelation!
Regards
mandemeet

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

There is no heavy lifting; you are fishing from the surface forgetting that on the surface only dead fish come............end quote:
.
How true..and GURU Ji tells us the exact same thing...Baggleh daddahn khaveh....and ....HANS DIVE DEEP and feed on PEARLS.
This is a Metaphor because in nature both birds eat the same stuff as "pearls" are uneatable..BUT the Meaning behind the Gurbani Tuk is what madameet Ji is explaining....IF we float on the surface only..we will get only dead fish...Gurbani is a DEEP OCEAN..and its pleasures can be derived only via "scuba" diving at the very least..and submarine diving for more !!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

My dad taught me one golden rule...GURU JI always speaks in the ...shortest..straightest way....so the moment someone opens his mouth/begins writing....and begins to ZIG ZAG..touching base at hardwaar..Benaras..and then back to Amrtisar....the moment he begins touching on the Krishans of mathra and the Raams of dasrath...and Kanshi etc tec..Forget him. Hes NOT telling about GURBANI..but leading you on a garden path or walk in the park...He is NOT telling about the DIRECT Message of the GURU..but convulating circumventing gallivanting around...confusing..bypassing the GURU....

 

[Admin]

Admin Note: This thread is now closed. References taken from dramatized Mythology dramas and from Wikipedia can be described as a worst case scenario to support your arguments. Please refrain from such examples. If you have something interesting to add to this topic, please start a new topic while referencing link to this topic.

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Gurfateh!
Aman Singh