Islam Who Is A True Muslim?

[Tejwant Singh]

Friends,

Guru Fateh.

I am really confused now. I saw the interaction between Nabi and JavanMard who claim themselves being Muslims,however each of them accuse the other of not being a Muslim.

How can they both serve Allah in this manner?

Can some other Muslims who visit this great site to learn about Sikhism throw some light to it?

1. Who is a Muslim and who decides that except Allah?

Input from all would be highly appreciated.

Thanks and Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_member7]

If he is true ..he is not a muslim and if he is a muslim he cannot be true ..you can only be the either of the both ...islam does not permit the existance of other religious ideologies ..

 

[spnadmin]

VaheguruSeekr ji

Some background on your question. The order of my comments does not reflect their order of importance necessarily.

1. Shias and Sunnis view one another as heretics -- hence a Sunni and a Shia would on principle disagree about everything including who is a Muslim, except perhaps that Allah is God and Mohamed is his prophet. Sharia will be the same but how sharia is appplied will differ according to the country because sharia is imposed after a tribunal looks at a case.

2. Niether Shias nor Sunnis accept Sufis as legitimate Muslims unless (in some countries this happens) a Suf decides to be quiet. In some places it is still outlawed.

Points to ponder: Now the following comments are relevant only if you beileve that Javanmard and Nabi are two different people, or if you take their arguments at face value. Here are some other possibilities, or hypotheses if you like.

1. Javanmard and Nabi are the same person and the debate was a hoax intended to inflame SPN members. Javanmard claims to be writing from Iran and Nabi from Pakistan. The only way to find out if they are one and the same is to check IP address on full headers.

2. Javanmard and Nabi are two different people but they are working together like a cabal, perhaps over the Internet. Things are worked out behind the scenes, and all the posting is what is called "flaming" and they are trying to start a flame war. Perhaps even hoping that the flames will spread to other forums.

3. Javanmard and Nabi are two different people. But they know each other. Nabi has caught wind of what Javanmard is doing and has decided to cause some trouble of his own independently. He would like to inflame Javanmard, and he would like to inflame the SPN membership. He would also like to inflame Hindu members of SPN. This is called "trolling."

There was content in some of these posts that we deleted today )NamJap, kdsji and I) that was eerie in the way that it looks like threads on Topix -Sikhism. The same pitiable yet prurient obsessions with sex organs, sexual identities of gods and goddesses, warped sexual behavior and trashy language. Topix is not moderated and there are some individuals from Pakistan who engage in this kind of behavior in the Sikh section of Topix. Slandering Sikh women is a favorite past-time.

So these are merely hypotheses. Are they true? I don't know. Everyone is invisible on the Internet making anything hard to prove. How do we know for certain that one or the other or both are in fact Muslims? We don't. All we know is they say they are Muslims. But these observations and information may help you understand what was going on today.

:roll:

Friends,

Guru Fateh.

I am really confused now. I saw the interaction between Nabi and JavanMard who claim themsleves to be Muslims,however each of them accuse the other of not being a Muslim.

How can they both serve Allah in this manner?

Can some other Muslims who visit this great site to learn about Sikhism throw some light to it?

1. Who is a Muslim and who decides that except Allah?

Input from all would be highly appreciated.

Thanks and Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Archived_member7]

you are absolutely correct about Javan Mard from Iran ..and Nabi is from Pakistan..Aaad ji ..there was a hot exchange of PMs between me and Nabi and from my experience i could recognize that he is from Pakistan ..and from the Punjab Province of Pakistan...they both are working together ..first trying to show they r different but the results are the same ...

here is what Nabi had to say " Islam will crush Sikh hindu christian buddhist parsi *** all religions will be defeated by Islam "

Such statements are the very base of islamic ideology ...a large portion of Humanity is still to realize the kind of monstor we r dealing with ...

Here is poem which says what i m trying to say :

This poem was originally written by a Jewish poet to describe Jewish failure to recognize Nazis
before it was too late.It was modified by an Indian to describe the designs of Islamic terrorism
in the Indian-subcontinent since 1947.
First they came for Punjabi / Sindhi / Bangladeshi non-Muslims
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Punjabi / Sindhi / Bangladeshi non-Muslim

Then they came for the Kashmiri non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Kashmiri non-Muslim
Then they came for the Jammu / Ladakhi non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Jammu / Ladakhi non-Muslim
Then they came for the Assamese non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Assamese non-Muslim
Then they came for the West Bengali non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a West Bengali non-Muslim
Then they came for the Nepali non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Nepali non-Muslim
Then they came for me,
And there was no one left to speak out for me.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

VaheguruSeekr ji

Some background on your question. The order of my comments does not reflect their order of importance necessarily.

1. Shias and Sunnis view one another as heretics -- hence a Sunni and a Shia would on principle disagree about everything including who is a Muslim, except perhaps that Allah is God and Mohamed is his prophet. Sharia will be the same but how sharia is appplied will differ according to the country because sharia is imposed after a tribunal looks at a case.

2. Niether Shias nor Sunnis accept Sufis as legitimate Muslims unless (in some countries this happens) a Suf decides to be quiet. In some places it is still outlawed.

Points to ponder: Now the following comments are relevant only if you beileve that Javanmard and Nabi are two different people, or if you take their arguments at face value. Here are some other possibilities, or hypotheses if you like.

1. Javanmard and Nabi are the same person and the debate was a hoax intended to inflame SPN members. Javanmard claims to be writing from Iran and Nabi from Pakistan. The only way to find out if they are one and the same is to check IP address on full headers.

2. Javanmard and Nabi are two different people but they are working together like a cabal, perhaps over the Internet. Things are worked out behind the scenes, and all the posting is what is called "flaming" and they are trying to start a flame war. Perhaps even hoping that the flames will spread to other forums.

3. Javanmard and Nabi are two different people. But they know each other. Nabi has caught wind of what Javanmard is doing and has decided to cause some trouble of his own independently. He would like to inflame Javanmard, and he would like to inflame the SPN membership. He would also like to inflame Hindu members of SPN. This is called "trolling."

There was content in some of these posts that we deleted today )NamJap, kdsji and I) that was eerie in the way that it looks like threads on Topix -Sikhism. The same pitiable yet prurient obsessions with sex organs, sexual identities of gods and goddesses, warped sexual behavior and trashy language. Topix is not moderated and there are some individuals from Pakistan who engage in this kind of behavior in the Sikh section of Topix. Slandering Sikh women is a favorite past-time.

So these are merely hypotheses. Are they true? I don't know. Everyone is invisible on the Internet making anything hard to prove. How do we know for certain that one or the other or both are in fact Muslims? We don't. All we know is they say they are Muslims. But these observations and information may help you understand what was going on today.

:roll:

Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for your thoughts. Yet, one fails to understand the following:

What purpose does it serve?

How do these actions help them to become better beings?

How can hatred be a pathway to love?

How can disdain breed kindness?

How can one claim that Islam means Peace with this kind of behaviour?

Just somethings to ponder!

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

The answers are all in God's hands.

 

[spnadmin]

rajkhalsa ji

You a making an important point in this poem -- but let me make this correction, and then explain why it is important to hear the correction. The original poem was not written by a Jewish poet. It makes sense that a Jewish person would stand up for others of his faith. But this poem! It was written by a Christian theologian (see Note below), who as a man of God did not speak out when the Nazi's came for everyone else, for Jewish people, for retarded people, for people who were permanently disabled, and for people of faith and religion. He and his associates did not speak out against the Godlessness of the Nazi's. Why does this change the meaning?

The meaning is different -- because the poem was not by someone speaking out for his own faith. The poem was by someone who woke up and realized that if men and women of faith and morality do not stand behind one another, no matter who they are and what their religion, then there is no hope on earth for anyone of any religion.

If Islam is a religion that does not honor people of other faiths, yes, they are then as godless as Nazi's. Sri Gobind Singh began his journey fighting for justice, not for Sikhs, for justice.
____________________________________________________________________
Note: Martin Niemoller was a German pastor and theologian born in Lippstadt, Germany, in 1892. Niemoller was an anti-Communist and, for that reason, supported Hitler's rise to power – at first. But when Hitler insisted on the supremacy of the state over religion, Niemoller became disillusioned. he became the leader of a group of German clergymen opposed to Hitler. Unlike Niemoller, they gave in to the Nazis' threats. Hitler personally detested Niemoller and had him arrested and eventually confined in the Sachsenhausen and Dachau concentration camps. Niemoller was released in 1945 by the Allies. He continued his career in Germany as a clergyman and as a leading voice of penance and reconciliation for the German people after World War II. His poem is well-known, frequently quoted, and is a popular model for describing the dangers of political apathy, as it often begins with specific and targeted fear and hatred which soon escalates out of control.



Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist. Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.
Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.
Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a ***.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

you are absolutely correct about Javan Mard from Iran ..and Nabi is from Pakistan..Aaad ji ..there was a hot exchange of PMs between me and Nabi and from my experience i could recognize that he is from Pakistan ..and from the Punjab Province of Pakistan...they both are working together ..first trying to show they r different but the results are the same ...

here is what Nabi had to say " Islam will crush Sikh hindu christian buddhist parsi *** all religions will be defeated by Islam "

Such statements are the very base of islamic ideology ...a large portion of Humanity is still to realize the kind of monstor we r dealing with ...

Here is poem which says what i m trying to say :

This poem was originally written by a Jewish poet to describe Jewish failure to recognize Nazis
before it was too late.It was modified by an Indian to describe the designs of Islamic terrorism
in the Indian-subcontinent since 1947.
First they came for Punjabi / Sindhi / Bangladeshi non-Muslims
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Punjabi / Sindhi / Bangladeshi non-Muslim

Then they came for the Kashmiri non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Kashmiri non-Muslim
Then they came for the Jammu / Ladakhi non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Jammu / Ladakhi non-Muslim
Then they came for the Assamese non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Assamese non-Muslim
Then they came for the West Bengali non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a West Bengali non-Muslim
Then they came for the Nepali non-Muslims
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Nepali non-Muslim
Then they came for me,
And there was no one left to speak out for me.

 

[lalihayer]

Why don't we let the Muslims decide for themselves?
Before asking the question, 'Who is true Muslim?', we should discuss who is true Sikh? Every religion has sects based on slightly different rituals and theologies. We have Namdharis, Taksalis, AKJ, 3HO, Sehajdharis and many more. Even in any single household not all the members have same exact kind of faith.
Read shabads on Ang 141 of Guru Granth Sahib to know what Guru Sahib says about being a Muslim.

 

[spnadmin]

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
musalamaan kehaavan musakal jaa hoe thaa musalamaan kehaavai ||
It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.


ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥
aval aoul dheen kar mithaa masakal maanaa maal musaavai ||
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.


ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai ||
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.


ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥
rab kee rajaae mannae sir oupar karathaa mannae aap gavaavai ||
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.


ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
tho naanak sarab jeeaa miharanmath hoe th musalamaan kehaavai ||1||
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||


Guru Nanak, Ang 141

Lalihayer ji, Thank you!

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Why don't we let the Muslims decide for themselves?
Before asking the question, 'Who is true Muslim?', we should discuss who is true Sikh? Every religion has sects based on slightly different rituals and theologies. We have Namdharis, Taksalis, AKJ, 3HO, Sehajdharis and many more. Even in any single household not all the members have same exact kind of faith.
Read shabads on Ang 141 of Guru Granth Sahib to know what Guru Sahib says about being a Muslim.

Lalihayer ji,

Guru Fateh.


I am a bit puzzled by your question about " Who is a true Sikh"? Sikh means a student, a learner, a seeker. Does SGGS make a distinction amongst all the titles you have given above? Can you enlighten us with your Gurmat wisdom regarding this?

No one asked the question about who a true Muslim is as you have mentioned in your post and if you had read the whole thread which I am sure you did, you must have noticed that what was being discussed was about two Muslims who were accusing each other of not being a Muslim in this forum. So, as you may have noticed it was totally a different subject.

You have shared with us the Shabad from SGGS where Guru Sahib does show us what being a Muslim is like and I thank you for that. There are many other Shabads like this in SGGS which show us how a true Muslim should behave. I hope these 2 Muslims being discussed above would take advantage of what Guru Sahib said and come to terms with each other and their faith.

The reason for the title of the thread " Who is a true Muslim ?" was not a direct question asked to anyone in the thread itself but just to create a point of discussion among us in result of what had taken place between the 2 Muslims. If you feel offended by the title then I take the blame for that and do apologise because that was not the intention as the thread itself would show.

Now, what should be discussed and interacted upon and helped around with by people like you and other scholars is that how one can become a better Sikh.

Just a thought....

Tejwant Singh

 

[lalihayer]

Can you enlighten us with your Gurmat wisdom regarding this.

Vaheguruseekr ji, I dont have any 'my Gurmat wisdom'. You are looking for it at wrong place.