Who Is The Present Guru Of The Sikhs?

[BhagatSingh]

oh god ur teaching me?

She is trying to reason with you. If you don't see it, dont bother posting.

 

[spnadmin]

Sat shri akal,
aad0002 ji,
my post was a reply to the post of jaspi ji
one can only disrespected something that deserves respect:yes:


sorry but i hav just replied to the post of jaspi ji



oh god ur teaching me?

Veer ji

Yes, I am trying to inject reason and a reasonable point of view here. Trying to smooth out some of the sharp ridges in the discussion. Try to point out that several points of view deserve respect. This would not be a thread where animosity per se or animosity over Dasam Granth needs to be stirred up. Thanx for the question. But next time Dasam Granth comes up here all post including mine are going to be moved to a different thread or deleted.

 

[Saint Soldier]

Sat shri akal,
allright this was a mistake on my part and i apologize and il try not to repeat this.
i hope im free to express my views on any topic and that is what i was doing .:yes:
and if this fool has hurt someones sentiments ofcourse this was not my intention .:yes:

~~sainty~~
~~wald Guru nanak~~

 

[Archived_Member5]

With regard and reverence for the Shri Dasam Granth venerable books attributed to by some as a veritable Karma Sutra remake. It is said and known by the enlightened that God is a Wisdom, a Truth leading to a sublime peace, the state of mind from where Supreme Love, the purest life form is found. Love Wisdom and Peace are the three facets and paths to what is the Supreme Universal Spirit.

In ages of debauchery and immorality wherein all that is sacrosanct is rendered sacrilegious and profane causes such confusion to arise. The notion of the pure and strong race of Godhood to be associated with matters reviled and defamed is a complex but readily simplified issue. The path to wisdom, truth and love is as narrow as it is broad dependent upon the traveller’s ego and intellect. Narrow paths appear broad and free to the pure and supplicated mind, to the impure and egotistical consumed by gain broad highways are constricting and difficult to travel upon.

Love is the highest condition of existence for man, the true state of love is one where the mind, heart and soul are so consumed with goodness and cleansed that the vision perceives beauty, truth and goodness in all things. The captors of love seek greedily to hold its power and grace to no avail, if successful they poison the sacred sprit of love, until it is sullied beyond compare. Few utter the name of love without an anger or resentment of all associated drama with it. Freeing a world from debauchery and perverse desire, liberating the soul until it want and desires no more is the task of any saint.

Pure love is the sacred elixir for which Kings and Saints alike give their soul, for it is perfect trust and security. A grace granted to most upon demise, and to the blessed few who are able to find such a companion and life partner who engenders all virtue and graces whereby man becomes as his God finding all peace and contentment within the sacred sanctum of his home.

Mere mortals seek to bypass the basic premise of the path to Love's threshold, and a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah is roused thereby. Immorality indeed creates an insatiable den of iniquitous greed, a carnal hunger the more it consumes the greater it craves. This is a malady and disease requiring remedy. We observe the modern world thinking itself free whilst so entangled and embroiled in the web of lechery and revolting licentiousness. And we repel all such notions of carnal lust masquerading as Love.

There are similar books to the Dasam Granth written in all scriptures, mans journey and path of enlightenment leading to spiritual liberation from need and desire. Where Love dwells nothing impure can near. Where paap or sin prevail, love remains not for long, no matter how strong the spells and chains that bind it.

 

[BhagatSingh]

As long as that book says that some dude with thousands of limbs, secreted earth out of his ear, you can't take those writings seriously.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

1. Guru Granth Sahib Ji was bestowed on the Gurgadee of Nanak by the Last nanak Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Nanded 1708.( Jyot/Atma of nanak- Divine Message)

2.The Guru Khalsa Panth (Body of Nanak).

3. The Guru Khasa Panth is SUBSERVIENT to the SGGS - the SGGS cannot be changed/adulterated/altered by any living human being as it is the Divine revealed WORD- Shabad...BUT..

4. The Guru Khalsa Panth has the Moral and Administrative AUTHORITY bestowed upon it by Guru Gobind Singh Ji - proved on THREE DISTINCT OCASSIONS -

a) when Guru Gobind RAI..bowed before the Panj at Vasakhi Day 1699 in Anadpur sahib to RECEIVE Khandey Batte dee PAHUL and undergo a Name Change from Guru Gobind Rai to Guru Gobind SINGH as was ordaiend to all other SIKHS who took Pahul.

b) When Guru Ji "lowered his Arrow towards the Grave of a Mulsim Pir ( as aTEST)..the Panj Accompanying Guru Ji SANCTIONED this ACT as against Maryada and Guru Ji asked for FORGIVENESS for thsi misdemeanour.

c) AT the Garhee in Chamkaur when the Guru was ORDERED by the PANJ to EVACUATE and withdraw from the Garrhee as the Panj decided that the Guru was needed ALIVE and could not be allwoed to be martyred along with hsi two sons and all the sikhs left. The Guru OBEYED this Order and Left the Garhhe and travelled through the Mughal Forces towards the Muktsar Malwa region. A SIKH who looked remarkeably like Guru ji was dressed in his Robes and had the Gurus Klagi attached to his Dastaar and he was the one the Mughals thought was the Guru when they finally overran the garhhe the next day.

5. The TOUCHSTONE of GURBANI in the SGGS is to be basis of any and all decisions undertaken by the Guru Khalsa Panth.

6. NO ONE can by HIMSELF be "admitted" to the Guru's "House". IT was NOT Bhai Lehnna Ji that made himself Guru Angad..He was CHOSEN/APPOINTED by GURU NANAK...simialrly for all the succeeding Gurus... In the PRESENT CONTEXT..NO ONE can "self admit" himself/herself....to be the "SIKH" of the SGGS. The GURU DEEKHYA..is a CEREMONY whereby the SIKH is ADMITTED by the GURU to be his disciple. This GURU DEEKHYA now works in the KHANDEY BATTEH DEE PAHUL whereby the PANJ in the August PRESENCE of the SGGS..admit a SIKH into the KHALSA BROTHERHOOD. This is the reason why the GURU KHALSA PANTH has the authoruty to DECIDE ona dn Formualte changes in REHAT MARYADA..Nitnem Banis, ardass, etc etc. The ONLY thing that cannot change is the SGGS GURBANI as no one can write any more "Gurbani" as the Human Gurus era is OVER.

7. THose "Sikhs" who claim they are SIKHS of the SGGS are self delusional...as the SGGS cannot give "GURU DEEKHYA"..admission to anyone. That DUTY was passed to the PANJ by Guru Gobind Singh ji in 1699, and CERTIFIED as the ONLY WAY to be a SIKH of the SGGS...even GURU GOBIND RAI went through the SAME ADMISSION to prove this POINT.
He was already DE FACTO GURU by virtue of having been bestowed Gurgadee after the martyrdom of his Father Guru teg bahdur Ji....BUT he STILL BOWED before the PANJ to recieve admission to the KHALSA. AAPEH GURU..AAPEH CHELA !!

Just like the "Constitution" of a country cannot give Citizenship to anyone..no matter how much I may Love the American Constitution, memorise it be able to recite it backwards..etc etc and be willing to DIE for it...ONLY the American Govt/Senate/Congress etc can Make me an American Citizen...BUT then EVEN the American Govt/senate/congress CANNOT give me American Citizenship IF I REFUSE to "affirm my beleif/pledge allegiance" to the Same Constitution..THIS is the exact same relationship between the SGGS (written Constitution) and the Khalsa ( the administrative Body) Only one BIG difference is that the American Congress/Senate can CHANGE the Constitution..BUT the Guru Khalsa Panth CANNOT CHANGE the SGGS even by a full stop..dandee !!:happy:

 

[jasi]

S.S.AKAL JI.

Thanks for your postings and it is 100% correct. We have to move forward to be more related to each others by shedding all beliefs on cast sysytem whic has sweped into our sikhism .Dividing us apart since 1925 even before.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj gave us tremendous identity to be Bhai sahib to each others.

jaspi

 

[khalsa1469]

I have written something that sheds light upon this question. Please see the first point of discussion.

"Dasam" Granth - A Look at the Core Problems

By Gaurav Singh

Like so many other issuesthat contemporary Sikhs choose to deal with, the issue Dasam Granth is contrived and, indeed, a "red herring" (in that, it is meant to divert attention). I largely agree with Sardar I. J. Singh's take on things in his article on Sikhchic.com and would like to make some further distinctions that may help separate "the wheat from the chaff."

Rather than getting into minutiae, historical or otherwise, it is sometimes more helpful to understand the basis, the fundamentals, the core, the Tat of the issue under consideration. In my understanding the fundamentals under concern here are:

1) Who/what is Guru?
2) Who has the right to decide the status of what is and what is not Guru?
3) In light of the above, what is the status of the so-called Dasam Granth?

Sardar I. J. Singh has shed light upon this by exposing, quite simply, the hypocrisy practiced by those who believe in any real relation between Guru Gobind Singh and Hemkunt (as a historical GurAsthan). Of course, if Sikhs give no credence to the Hindu pilgrimages visited by Lehna ji (later became a Sikh, and then, Guru Angad) and Amar ji (later became a Sikh, and then, Guru Amar Das) in the same life which saw them first become Sikhs and then the Guru, then how can a GurSikh deign to validate an alleged previous life of Guru Gobind Singh?

The Gurmat here is that we are engaged with and get our guidance from the Guru, and the actions of Nanak II & III prior to their ascension to the status of the Guru do not have the sanction of (what I term) Guru-authority. So, any validity to an alleged previous life of Nanak X is beyond baffling and, certainly, not Gurmat.

Now back to the core. Who is the Guru?

The Guru existed prior to Guru Nanak and shall always exist, as long as there is existence, since the Guru is Shabad. This fact is also apparent because of the inclusion (within Guru Granth Sahib) of the Bani of Sheikh Farid and Bhagat Kabir, etc. who preceded Guru Nanak Sahib. Here, I shall not address the fact that there are some distinctions made by Guru Nanak I-V in reference to “Bhagat” Bani.

At this time, I should make clear the distinction between Guru and, what I term, Guru-authority. When Guru Nanak sanctioned Guru Angad as the Guru going forward, he himself lived for some time thereafter. No sane person would suggest that the Guru within Guru Nanak suddenly left him and went into Bhai Lehna. When Guru Angad becomes Guru it does not mean that Guru Nanak is not Guru. Guriai is not a zero-sum game. Rather, it is akin to a Jot (en)light(en)ing another Jot.

Therefore, what Guru Nanak passed onto Bhai Lehna was the Guru-authority. Bhai Lehna was, in fact, indistinguishable from Guru Nanak, hence his Ang(ad). What they had in common was the enlightenment from Shabad Guru!



So, at the same time in 1539 CE existed Guru Angad Sahib (Guru-authority) and Guru Nanak. In a smaller sense this could be understood through the concept of Presidency in the United States. Barack Obama is the President, while George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H. W. Bush and Carter are also Presidents. All but Obama, however, are not charged with the authority to make executive decisions for the 50 states in the union.

The difference here is that the de jure authority for Presidents is conferred by the constitution and, loosely speaking, by the people. Whereas, the Guru-authority is conferred upon Guru Nanak by the 1 and this authority is further recognized by the people with the ability to make that distinction – the Sikhs (and I would distinguish them from the “Sikhs”, for instance, Sain Mian Mir was a Sikh of the Shabad Guru, yet not a “Sikh”). The de facto and moral charge of the Guru is given by the people whose commitment is to themselves be transformed by the Mat of the Guru.

The transfer of Guru-authority continued 9 more times when it came to Guru Gobind Singh. It was Guru Gobind Singh’s charge, as it was of every Guru-authority before him, to decide what is and what is not Guru(bani). With this established, I shall point out a fact:

Not every word communicated by the Guru-authority, whether spoken or written, is Gurbani or Guru!

For instance, if the Guru (Nanak I-X) asked a mundane question – the address to someone’s home – it is not Gurbani. Only that which the Guru confers with the status of Gurbani is such. This is obvious, yet clearly not understood by many.

There is not a single word of Nanak VI-VIII in what was to become Sri Guru Granth Sahib (SGGS). Of course, in their lifetime each Guru Sahiban spoke and, no doubt, wrote words.

But mere words, no matter how powerful, do not Gurbani make!

Word(s) becomes Shabad Guru, only when it is given such status by the Guru-authority.

But more relevant to our issue, Guru Gobind Singh (who completed the authorship of what was to be SGGS) consciously chose to include Guru Tegh Bahadar Sahib’s Bani and also made a conscious decision not to include any of his own Bani within SGGS.

I ask for your patience in looking at further implications and urge the readers to keep their emotional responses and mental discomfort in check as they read on.

Whether one word or the entire so-called Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib himself, it is not Gurbani or Shabad Guru, on its own. The Guru himself decided that by not including a single word of his own within SGGS.

So, are the supporters of the “Dasam” Granth then challenging the Guru by conferring the status of Gurbani to parts of the so-called Dasam Granth? Yes and No!

Yes: Because of the pervasive ignorance of the reasoning above, on its face – Yes, these “Sikhs” are in a way challenging the Guru’s decision. They are doing so under the garb of Sharda (faith), which is in fact Anni Sharda (blind faith). They claim to do so out of respect for the Guru. I say claim, because they do not respect the Guru sufficiently enough to accept the Guru’s Hukam.

Before I get to the "No", I want to clarify another matter. Just as Guru-authority was passed from Nanak I - X, in 1699 CE Guru Gobind Singh (Nanak X) passed Guru-authority to the Guru Khalsa Panth, when after administering the Khande-ki-Pahul to the Panj Piare he asked them to initiate him into the Panth Khalsa. At that moment, the Guru-authority was passed onto the Guru Khalsa Panth. Hence, by the reasoning presented above, the supporters of the so-called Dasam Granth may not be directly opposing the Guru.


No: Since, in part, the status of Gurbani or Shabad Guru can be conferred only by the Guru-authority, the Guru Khalsa Panth does presumably have the authority to confer the status of Gurbani or Shabad Guru. This is where some complexity arises.

The Guru Khalsa Panth, drafted a widely circulated document, the final draft of which, has henceforth been accepted as the “Sikh Rehit Mariada” and published by several organizations, including the SGPC’s Dharam Parchar Committee. In it are some Banis which are included in the Nitnem – Jaap, Sawaiye, and a carefully chosen portion of Chaupai. No other portion of the writings within the so-called Dasam Granth has been included in the Panthic Rehit, with the exception of portions in the beginning of the formal Ardas and the previously mentioned Bani as a part of Amrit Sanskar, or during administration of the Khande-ki-Pahul (initiation into the Khalsa collective).

The folks, whom I shall refer to as the ominous “they” going forward, who are now forwarding the legitimacy of the so-called Dasam Granth and some of whom are displaying it in parallel with SGGS are also generally opposed to the Panthic Rehit Mariada. They have two problems and neither of these problems is insubstantial.

If they say they call the writings within the so-called Dasam Granth "Gurbani" because they claim it is, in part or wholly, Guru Gobind Singh’s, then they dismiss the Guru’s own decision and Hukam that only that which is within SGGS is sanctioned by the Guru-authority as Shabad Guru or Gurbani. These people become Guru-dokhi (Detractors of the Guru)!

The other issue is that the Guru Khalsa Panth can and has already made decisions as the Guru-authority. But by disavowing or working actively to undermine the credibility and authority of the Guru Khalsa Panth, they (the blind supporters of the so-called Dasam Granth) become Panth-dokhi (Detractors of the Panth)!

 

[spnadmin]

Khalsa ji

This is good thinking from where I stand. Wish that I were as articulate as you. :yes:

 

[jasi]

Wahe GuruJI Khalsa ,Wahe Guru Ji ki Fateh.

I whole heartedly agreed with your writing about our Guru which is Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Khalsa is a completely different entity created by Guru gobindh singh Ji as you a have written some verses delivered by Guru Gobind Singh Ji about khalsa and their disciplined life.That was then and forever given directions that who ever will follows the "Rahet":hmm: ,will find Guru Gobind Singh 's existences among them


So our real Guru is Guru Granth Sahib and all our answers to our questions are there written in Shabads.

Also there are lot more to be discussed on this web site about our divided faith and unity by epidemic disease of CAST SYSTEM. No one like to talk about it.This suppose to be number one to correct deep rooted understanding through religious forums as not to believe in any cast system since the foundations of eradicating the cast system were laid down by Guru Nanak Dev JI

That is why we have not advanced our selves to share vast knowledge of Shri Guru Granth sahib ji with other parts of the world.

We converted into same situations as it existed before Guru Nanak Dev Ji came into this world to dis mental all racism on the basis of one's birth or colors,cast,genders.

How you could we call ourselves Sikh without practicing the fundamental plate form on which we were created as a Sikhs by Gur Nanak Dev Ji.

Let us PAUSE and see our face in the mirror. you will find all the answers.
and you will stop pin- picking others things to alter our basic practices of Sikhism and our Guru's and traditions.

You are not even Guru ka Sikh and searching other topics out of one 's ignorance and instead of realizing your own practical life as a Sikh.. All the shabada in Guru Granth sahib ji are our guidance that is why IT is our living Guru.

Jaspi


.

Sat shri akal,
what i think is that Shri Guru Granth Sahib and Panth Khalsa is collectively the present sikh Guru :yes:. After the line of corporeal gurus was brought to an end by Guru Gobind Singh, the Khalsa Panth was installed its own leader under the abiding guidance of Guru Granth Sahib and guru ji himself was a member of khalsa panth.:yes: This may be cleared by the following lines by Guru gobind singh ji :yes: --
The Khalsa is my own special form
Within the Khalsa I’ll ever abide,
The Khalsa is the life of my life;
The Khalsa is the breath of my breath.
The Khalsa is my worshipful lord.
The Khalsa is my saintly kinght.
--Guru Nanak(the 10th)

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Bhagat Singh Ji,

I agree with your point of view. One needs a Guru to grow spiritually and AGGS is the only one; where as Khalsa which have been discussed before and the discussion can be found in the archives of the forum is to institutionalize and control the Sikhs. Spirituality and politics have to be separated to grow in spirituality which Khalsa does not want to do IMHO.

Finally the question comes; Do we need the Guru for spiritual progress or to control others?

Cordially,

Virinder

 

[spnadmin]

Miri - Piri is a Gurmat concept. I am not saying it is restricted to Sikhs. However, it is ingrained in our history.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

It may be historical fact but in reality is the cause of all the problems faced by Sikhs in politics and Gurudwaras IMHO. Personally my interest is only spiritual in Sikh Faith.
We can agree to disagree and I am not forcing any one to follow my concept.
Respectfully Submitted.
Virinder

 

[Bmandur]

Our Present Guru Is "Guru Granth Sahib ji" Only

Gurfateh Parwaan ji

 

[vsgrewal48895]

I agree with you Bmandur Ji.

Virinder

 

[Harry Haller]

why taint the pure with the unpure

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

THE GURU GRANTH AND GURU KHALSA PANTH ARE AS TRUE AS GURU NANAK JI-GURU GOBIND SINGH JI....ONE IS THE SPIRIT..THE OTHER IS THE BODY REQUIRED TO CARRY OUT WHAT THE SPIRIT NEEDS TO BE DONE....

THE SHABAD NEEDED THE 10 HUMAN BODIES FROM 1469-1708...THE SHABAD GURU STILL NEEDS THE SAME HUMAN BODIES...NOW CALLED THE KHALSA PANTH...

SIMPLE AND PURE LOGIC. NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT.

GURU GOBIND SINGH JI BOWED HIS HEAD BEFORE THE PUNJ AT VASAKHI 1699 LONG BEFORE HE BOWED TO THE SGGS IN 1708....GURU GOBIND SINGH JI THEN TESTED THE KHALSA MANY TIMES...BEFORE FINALLY LEAVING HIS OWN BODY AND PUTTING THE KHALSA UNDER THE SHABAD GURU SGGS IN 1708.

HOWEVER many of us who just CANNOT keep the KESH (primarily ) then seek to justify our own SHORTCOMINGS about the Khalsa being not necessary, not needed, etc etc..and seek to escape the DISCIPLINE already enforced by the 10 GURUS...way way before the SGGS was bowed to....

Many who dont want to keep kesh and wear dastaar..however do wear the KARRA very proudly..in case they are mistaken for not "sikh " ??? ( Kacherra/kangha and kirpan dont bother them )....BUT the KARRA is never forgotten...hypocracy of the highest order.

 

[Harry Haller]

THE OTHER IS THE BODY REQUIRED TO CARRY OUT WHAT THE SPIRIT NEEDS TO BE DONE....

and to see that happen is truly beautiful, which of the current bodies within Sikhism do you think best portrays that?

 

[Harry Haller]

I haven't read the whole thread but, just quietly, I find it curious that the present Guru of the Sikhs isn't the same one as Guru Nanak Sahib Ji's Guru. I also find it curious that Gurbani talks about the Guru more than it talks about itself.

I may be at risk of ejecting myself from the community when I say Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji seems more like a window through which to see The Guru, rather than being The Guru itself. But I might just be being far too pedantic for my own good.

as john lennon once said, whatever gets you through the night

we all use imagery and metaphors, I think its an individual thing

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

My favourites on SPN...Narayanjyot Kaur Ji, , Spnadmin Ji, , Ishna Ji and HarryHaller ji..oh what would i do without them...these are the ones that actually help me write what i finally pen down...so whos mind reading who..i have no idea...BUT Together as a Team..we are one in a million...and I love my Team....