kharkoo4life
SPNer
Fateh,
Again, many thanks for ur comments and questions. I am by no means an expert on gurbani so if i have made any mistakes i welcome any corrections and apologize for mistakes on my part.
I can understand your concern regarding misinterpreting the meaning of 'chaatsaal' but i do not think such is the case with my example. U quoted me as saying:
However, u must read those lines in the context of the entire paragraph i wrote them in:
"Where has the whole idea that Sikhi is a life long learning process vanished to? Why have we devalued this schooling process into a mere overnight course? There is nothing wrong with people being eager and devoted to becoming members of the Khalsa. But they should not be rushed into the final stages by emotional or physical pressure. And if the individual themselves wishes to jump and go straight after the degree then it should be stressed by those around that person that this enthusiasm is great but it more important that the person actually first takes time to read gurbani, read Sikh history and understand the basic concepts of gurmat. Once they attain this strong base and foundation of the fundamentals of Sikhi then by all means they should be encouraged to partake in amrit ceremony. Not only will such a person be better able to withstand sinister attacks of falsehood/bramnical influence on their faith and not be misled but they will also remain strong in their faith and commitment to the Khalsa Panth and be less likely to waiver from it."
You see, my analogy of degree and school was not meant to be taken literally. It was only to highlight how the present thinking towards Sikhi has been relegated to simply adorning the panj kakaar n reciting bani repeatedly. But the real 'degree' of becoming a sikh involves more than just this. It involves actual life-long study, understanding and practice of gurbani. I do agree with u though that without the gurbani reference in original post one may have false impression that i was talking of ordinary schooling. But hopefully that impression is erased when i clarified my intention in subsquent post wiht gurbani quotation.
--------
with regards to the quote:
gurmuK drsn dyKxw iCAdrsx prsx n srcY
i apologize for it was a refernce from Bhai Gurdas Ji dhi vaaran (page 5) and not sri guru granth sahib. Sorry for the confusion. With regards to the translation of this into english, im sure u realize that making simple direct word for word translation of bani into enlgish doesnt always work well. Other than to provide a rather long n exhuastive explanation of the word's meaning in english sometimes we are compelled to use a word wtih close as meaning as possible to keep the translation short n readable.
'Darshan' in gurbani does not simply mean to see or look. It also refers to philosophy and the contemplation of that philosophy. We read elsewhere in gurbani (p.224)
drsnu dyiK BeI miq pUrI ]
Beholding the blessed vision of his darshan, my understanding has become perfect.
Obviously ones thinking (mut) does not change or become perfect merely by looking at something, even if it is bani. It comes only by analysing and trying to understand that thing. And this is what schools serve as. Place to carry out analysis to broaden our understanding. And it is in this light in the previous quote above that the 'darshan' of gurmat philosophy is praised over 'darshan' of traditional indian philosophy. If we call this schools of thought vs philosophy it is only a minor technicality of variable lexicon -- the central meaning remains the same.
----
with regards to where the guru has asked us to study gurbani/gurmat examples of this are endless in SGGS. In fact, this relates nicely with the previous mention of 'darshan' because we oftne equate having physical darshan of guru ji as being the cure of our mental ailments. But mere physical darshan alone are given absolute zero importance in gurbani. Since our guru is the shabad, this mean even simply looking at or reading gurbani from the saroop of guru granth sahib alone is valueless (for in todays world this is infact our physical 'darshan' of guru ji)
siqgur no sBu ko vyKdw jyqw jgqu sMswru ]
All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru.
ifTY mukiq n hoveI ijcru sbid n kry vIcwru ]
One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad. (.p594)
Thus we see here the key goal for a sikh is not merely to see the guru (i.e. read gurbani) but infact to contemplate it (do vichaar on it). And how does someone contemplate something? By repeating it in their head or saying it again n again? No. By analysing it, reflecting on its meanings and trying to figure out how that message of the shabad relates to his own life and incorporating it into his life. This is called vichaar.
This instruction for a sikh to study gurbani (do vichaar on it) is given elsewhere as well
iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]
There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate. (p.646)
sbid sUr jug cwry AauDU bwxI Bgiq vIcwrI ]23]
Contemplating the Shabad, you shall be a hero throughout the four ages, O hermit; contemplate the Word of the Guru's Bani in devotion. (p.908)
bwxI ibrlau bIcwrsI jy ko gurmuiK hoie ]
How rare are those who contemplate the Word of the Guru's Bani; they become Gurmukh. (p.935)
This is why gurbani is so valuable. It is not merely something to be sung and heard or read without reflection. The true creative value of gurbani in transforming a persons life lies in the person understanding the meaning of that bani, and to understand something properly we must study it! That is why the guru tells us to study and contemplate gurbani again n again.
nwau pVIAY nwau buJIAY gurmqI vIcwrw ]
So read the Name, and realize the Name, and contemplate the Guru's Teachings. (p.140)
Im sure u are certainly familiar with one of the most famous of instructions on this subject given to us by guru nanak himself:
ividAw vIcwrI qW praupkwrI ]
Contemplate and reflect upon knowledge, and you will become a benefactor to others. (p.356)
Now what kind of knowledge would guru ji be talking of here? Ordinary every day schooling or the schooling of gurbani? It is only when we reflect and understand gurbani ourselves that we can use it to help others as well.
------
The pursuit of (truth) God occurs all around us because we as man do not realize God is omnipresent. If we each realized and felt this then we would not have to make any efforts to realize him. yet the truth is most of the world is making efforts daily to realize (find) God. When i say pursuit of truth, it means people are pursuing ways to find Him, to become one with Him. It is our own limited egocentrical human thinking that we fail to realize God is all around us, and within us. But this question of how to meet god (ie. pursuit of God/truth) is an age old question. And it is this question, in the pursuit of truth, that Guru Nanak begins Jap Ji sahib in:
ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion/falsehood be torn away?
This one line is so deep and contains the essence of the goal of a sikh that it answers ur other question as well. As to when i made a refernce sikhi begins with the day we begin asking the questions as to what is the purpose of our life? and who is god? and how do we meet him?. Well meeting god is meeting Truth. For god as i said is the embodiment of truth. Why else do we seek to become 'pure' and true? To meet god. That is why the first question raised by guru nanak in jap ji sahib (and for that matter entire of guru granth sahib) is the above line. When we ask this question, we are taking the first step on the path of sikhi. The rest of guru granth sahib is an extension and description of that path, a means to help us walk down that path.
-----
With regards to God and mention of him as the ultimate school, again the gurus use an analogy. Obviously God is not the same school as you and i study at. God cannot be contained in such a small limited structure. God exists everywhere. He is the supreme Teacher, his clasroom is the entire universe, and his studetns are the entire creation.
Much thanx for all ur input.
Rab Rakha
Again, many thanks for ur comments and questions. I am by no means an expert on gurbani so if i have made any mistakes i welcome any corrections and apologize for mistakes on my part.
I can understand your concern regarding misinterpreting the meaning of 'chaatsaal' but i do not think such is the case with my example. U quoted me as saying:
However, u must read those lines in the context of the entire paragraph i wrote them in:
"Where has the whole idea that Sikhi is a life long learning process vanished to? Why have we devalued this schooling process into a mere overnight course? There is nothing wrong with people being eager and devoted to becoming members of the Khalsa. But they should not be rushed into the final stages by emotional or physical pressure. And if the individual themselves wishes to jump and go straight after the degree then it should be stressed by those around that person that this enthusiasm is great but it more important that the person actually first takes time to read gurbani, read Sikh history and understand the basic concepts of gurmat. Once they attain this strong base and foundation of the fundamentals of Sikhi then by all means they should be encouraged to partake in amrit ceremony. Not only will such a person be better able to withstand sinister attacks of falsehood/bramnical influence on their faith and not be misled but they will also remain strong in their faith and commitment to the Khalsa Panth and be less likely to waiver from it."
You see, my analogy of degree and school was not meant to be taken literally. It was only to highlight how the present thinking towards Sikhi has been relegated to simply adorning the panj kakaar n reciting bani repeatedly. But the real 'degree' of becoming a sikh involves more than just this. It involves actual life-long study, understanding and practice of gurbani. I do agree with u though that without the gurbani reference in original post one may have false impression that i was talking of ordinary schooling. But hopefully that impression is erased when i clarified my intention in subsquent post wiht gurbani quotation.
--------
with regards to the quote:
gurmuK drsn dyKxw iCAdrsx prsx n srcY
i apologize for it was a refernce from Bhai Gurdas Ji dhi vaaran (page 5) and not sri guru granth sahib. Sorry for the confusion. With regards to the translation of this into english, im sure u realize that making simple direct word for word translation of bani into enlgish doesnt always work well. Other than to provide a rather long n exhuastive explanation of the word's meaning in english sometimes we are compelled to use a word wtih close as meaning as possible to keep the translation short n readable.
'Darshan' in gurbani does not simply mean to see or look. It also refers to philosophy and the contemplation of that philosophy. We read elsewhere in gurbani (p.224)
drsnu dyiK BeI miq pUrI ]
Beholding the blessed vision of his darshan, my understanding has become perfect.
Obviously ones thinking (mut) does not change or become perfect merely by looking at something, even if it is bani. It comes only by analysing and trying to understand that thing. And this is what schools serve as. Place to carry out analysis to broaden our understanding. And it is in this light in the previous quote above that the 'darshan' of gurmat philosophy is praised over 'darshan' of traditional indian philosophy. If we call this schools of thought vs philosophy it is only a minor technicality of variable lexicon -- the central meaning remains the same.
----
with regards to where the guru has asked us to study gurbani/gurmat examples of this are endless in SGGS. In fact, this relates nicely with the previous mention of 'darshan' because we oftne equate having physical darshan of guru ji as being the cure of our mental ailments. But mere physical darshan alone are given absolute zero importance in gurbani. Since our guru is the shabad, this mean even simply looking at or reading gurbani from the saroop of guru granth sahib alone is valueless (for in todays world this is infact our physical 'darshan' of guru ji)
siqgur no sBu ko vyKdw jyqw jgqu sMswru ]
All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru.
ifTY mukiq n hoveI ijcru sbid n kry vIcwru ]
One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad. (.p594)
Thus we see here the key goal for a sikh is not merely to see the guru (i.e. read gurbani) but infact to contemplate it (do vichaar on it). And how does someone contemplate something? By repeating it in their head or saying it again n again? No. By analysing it, reflecting on its meanings and trying to figure out how that message of the shabad relates to his own life and incorporating it into his life. This is called vichaar.
This instruction for a sikh to study gurbani (do vichaar on it) is given elsewhere as well
iekw bwxI ieku guru ieko sbdu vIcwir ]
There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate. (p.646)
sbid sUr jug cwry AauDU bwxI Bgiq vIcwrI ]23]
Contemplating the Shabad, you shall be a hero throughout the four ages, O hermit; contemplate the Word of the Guru's Bani in devotion. (p.908)
bwxI ibrlau bIcwrsI jy ko gurmuiK hoie ]
How rare are those who contemplate the Word of the Guru's Bani; they become Gurmukh. (p.935)
This is why gurbani is so valuable. It is not merely something to be sung and heard or read without reflection. The true creative value of gurbani in transforming a persons life lies in the person understanding the meaning of that bani, and to understand something properly we must study it! That is why the guru tells us to study and contemplate gurbani again n again.
nwau pVIAY nwau buJIAY gurmqI vIcwrw ]
So read the Name, and realize the Name, and contemplate the Guru's Teachings. (p.140)
Im sure u are certainly familiar with one of the most famous of instructions on this subject given to us by guru nanak himself:
ividAw vIcwrI qW praupkwrI ]
Contemplate and reflect upon knowledge, and you will become a benefactor to others. (p.356)
Now what kind of knowledge would guru ji be talking of here? Ordinary every day schooling or the schooling of gurbani? It is only when we reflect and understand gurbani ourselves that we can use it to help others as well.
------
The pursuit of (truth) God occurs all around us because we as man do not realize God is omnipresent. If we each realized and felt this then we would not have to make any efforts to realize him. yet the truth is most of the world is making efforts daily to realize (find) God. When i say pursuit of truth, it means people are pursuing ways to find Him, to become one with Him. It is our own limited egocentrical human thinking that we fail to realize God is all around us, and within us. But this question of how to meet god (ie. pursuit of God/truth) is an age old question. And it is this question, in the pursuit of truth, that Guru Nanak begins Jap Ji sahib in:
ikv sicAwrw hoeIAY ikv kUVY qutY pwil ]
So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion/falsehood be torn away?
This one line is so deep and contains the essence of the goal of a sikh that it answers ur other question as well. As to when i made a refernce sikhi begins with the day we begin asking the questions as to what is the purpose of our life? and who is god? and how do we meet him?. Well meeting god is meeting Truth. For god as i said is the embodiment of truth. Why else do we seek to become 'pure' and true? To meet god. That is why the first question raised by guru nanak in jap ji sahib (and for that matter entire of guru granth sahib) is the above line. When we ask this question, we are taking the first step on the path of sikhi. The rest of guru granth sahib is an extension and description of that path, a means to help us walk down that path.
-----
With regards to God and mention of him as the ultimate school, again the gurus use an analogy. Obviously God is not the same school as you and i study at. God cannot be contained in such a small limited structure. God exists everywhere. He is the supreme Teacher, his clasroom is the entire universe, and his studetns are the entire creation.
Much thanx for all ur input.
Rab Rakha
