Why Are There So Many Religions?

[Satyaban]

VaheguruSeekr

We like to say I have only a couple of buckets of knowledge out of a vast ocean but I will share them with you.
1.I guess you could use that term, within sects there different schools of thought.
2.I don't know if there are devotees of Brahma but I did hear of one temple of Brahma, Devotees of Vishnu are Vaishnavites, devotees of Lord Shiva are Shaivites, devotees of Goddess Shakti are Shaktas. Smartas, liberal Hindus leave the choice of Deity to the individual.
3. No rifts really, maybe at one time.
4. The Shiva Linga symbolizes Shiva's power of creation. A certain occasions it is bathed with milk. There is no shameless caressing.
5. There is no origin of Shiva. He is without beginning and without end. Eternal. The Absolute. The Supreme being. The Creator and the Creation.
6. Of course every image related to Lord Shiva is symbolism. The color blue relates to the mythology, being metaphor, of His drinking poison to save life on earth.

I think it is important to remember that there are many names for That One The Creator, Yahweh, Allah, Sat Nam.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[Satyaban]

Tejwant Singh
I hope my last reponse was sufficient if not please point out where it can be improved if all is good let's move our discourse on to reincarnation.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[spnadmin]

A moderation note: It can become extremely difficult to pin down the parentage of the core Hindu devas because their lineage changes IN SOME CASES from veda to veda. I wouldn't worry too much about it because Shiva, and other issue including Krishna are in the end considered avatars of Vishnu, who depending on the text is either the issue of Narayein, his avatar, or his father.
I need to correct an earlier error in which I stated that: It is Krishna not Shiva who is blue because in one story he imbibed and retained in his throat a deadly poison that was released by evil forces on the sea coast and by doing so he saved the human race. It turned his skin blue, and so the color represents his sacrifice fo the human race." I am wrong. In fact Shiva is the avatar who is often referred to as "blue throat" and the reason:
His dark complexion and other characteristics, though explained away with the story of Samudra-manthan (the battle between Gods and demons) which the Gods lose and as a result one of them has to drink Halaahala (poison). Shiva is chosen to do this and the results in his dark complexion. For this he is also called Neel-kantha (Blue-necked). The poison having turned his neck blue. Hindu Festivals - Janmastami, Mahashivratri, Sri-Ramnavami, Nagpanchami and Ganesh Chaturthi
And Kirshna, as well as other avatars of Vishnu frequently portrayed as blue to represent the sky and therefore infinity.
I have related this story in detail in another thread. But can't remember where.

I would vote for moving ahead.

 

[BhagatSingh]

5. There is no origin of Shiva. He is without beginning and without end. Eternal. The Absolute. The Supreme being. The Creator and the Creation.

I thought Shiva was the detroyer and Brahma was the creator.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Members,

I am intrigued by the use of the word Navel/ ਨਾਭਿ in AGGS. Could some one through some light on it as to the Sikh belief in this word as used in Hindu mythology with the birth of gods through it? The usual reply that these are used as a metaphor does not satisfy my mind at the present time and more so when this philosophy is offered to youngsters as it is.

NAVEL/ ਨਾਭਿ​

Navel- ਧੁੰਨੀ, ਨਾਫ- {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. (1) ਤੁੰਨ. ਨਾਫ਼. ਧੁੰਨੀ. "ਨਾਭਿ ਬਸਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਿਆ". (ਵਾਰ ਸਾਰ ਮਃ ੧) (2) ਪਹੀਏ ਦੀ ਧੁਰ. ਨਾਭ. ਨਭ੍ਯ। (3) ਕਸਤੂਰੀ। (4) ਮਧ੍ਯ ਭਾਗ-heart/seat of feeling.

Q. Did Brahma or his sons get born out of Navel (ਨਾਭਿ)?

ਨਾਭਿ ਕਮਲ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਪਜੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੜਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਕੰਠਿ ਸਵਾਰਿ ॥ਤਾ ਕੋ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਣਾ ਆਵਤ ਜਾਤ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਬਾਰਿ ॥

Nābẖ kamal ṯė barahmā upjė bėḏ paṛeh mukẖ kanṯẖ savār.Ŧā ko anṯ na jā­ī lakẖ­ṇā āvaṯ jāṯ rahai gubār.

From the lotus of Vishnu's navel, Brahma was born; He chanted the Vedas with a melodious voice. He could not find the God's limits, and he remained in the darkness of coming and going. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Gujri, AGGS, Page, 489-8

ਸਨਕ ਸਨੰਦਨ ਸਿਵ ਸੁਕਾਦਿ ॥ ਨਾਭਿ ਕਮਲ ਜਾਨੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿ ॥

Sanak sananḏan siv sukāḏ. Nābẖ kamal jānė barahmāḏ.

Sanak, Sanandan, Shiva and Suk Dayv, were born out of Brahma's naval lotus. -----Kabir, Raag Basant, AGGS, Page, 1194-16

ਨਾਭਿ ਵਸਤ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਿਆ ॥

Nābẖ vasaṯ barahmai anṯ na jāṇi­ā.

Brahma, in the lotus of the navel, does not know the limits of God.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Sarang, AGGS, Page, 1237-17

These references of Navel being a source of birth like uterus create confusion in my mind in this scientific age as to whether Gurus accepted it as true or not? Guru Nanak refers to their creation by Akal Purkh in his following hymns, so did he accepted their creation as described?

ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥

Ėkā mā­ī jugaṯ vi­ā­ī ṯin cẖėlė parvāṇ.Ik sansārī ik bẖandārī ik lā­ė ḏībāṇ.

The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities. One was the creator of the world (Brahma); one, the sustainer (Vishnu); and one, the destroyer (Shiva). -----Guru Nanak, Japji, AGGS, Page, 7-2

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਏ ਵੇਸਾ ॥

Ŧariṯī­ā barahmā bisan mahėsā. Ḏėvī ḏėv upā­ė vėsā.

On the 3rd Lunar Day, God created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, the gods, goddesses and various manifestations of the lights and forms, which cannot be counted.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Bilawal, AGGS, Page, 839-2 & 3

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਇਦਾ ॥

Barahmā bisan mahės upā­ė mā­i­ā moh vaḏẖā­iḏā.

God created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; and fostered enticement and attachment to Maya. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1036-7

ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Sunnahu barahmā bisan mahės upā­ė.

From the Primal Void, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva issued forth.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1037-12

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥

Barahmā bisan mahės ḏėv upā­i­ā. Barahmė ḏiṯė bėḏ pūjā lā­i­ā.

Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created. Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Malar, AGGS, Page, 1279-17

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਈਸਰੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੋਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥

Gāvahi īsar barmā ḏėvī sohan saḏā savārė.

Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing God’s praises.-----Guru Nanak, Japji, AGGS, Page, 6-7

ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨਾਰਦੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਸੈ ਕੋਇ ॥

Bẖā­ī rė gur bin gi­ān na ho­ė. Pūcẖẖahu barahmė nārḏai bėḏ bi­āsai ko­ė.

O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom. Go and ask Brahma, Naarad and Vyaas, the writer of the Vedas. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 59- 7 & 8

The following reference of navel and breath in Sidh Gost further confuses their use- could some one clarify?

Q. ਨਾਭਿ ਕਮਲ ਅਸਥੰਭੁ ਨ ਹੋਤੋ ਤਾ ਪਵਨੁ ਕਵਨ ਘਰਿ ਸਹਤਾ ॥

Nābẖ kamal asthambẖ na hoṯo ṯā pavan kavan gẖar sahṯā.

When there was no support of the navel lotus, then in which home did the breath reside?

A. ਨਾਭਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਅਸਥੰਭੁ ਨ ਹੋਤੋ ਤਾ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਬਸਤਉ ਪਵਨੁ ਅਨਰਾਗੀ ॥

Nābẖ kamal asthambẖ na hoṯo ṯā nij gẖar basṯa­o pavan anrāgī.

When there was no support of the lotus of the navel, the breath remained in its own home, attuned to the God's Love. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Ramkali, AGGS, Page, 945

Finally, please clarify how far Sikh Gurus believed in the above Hindu Mythology?

If the reference is metaphorical then why did they describe it as real in their hymns?

Cordially,

Virinder S.Grewal

 

[Satyaban]

I guess a little clarification is needed it. I don't think much of the trimurti they are more or less different names for the names for God.
Lord Shiva is not an incarnation or avatar of Vishnu. Vishnu has had I think 9 incarnations to include Ram and Krishna and maybe 1 to come. We do not believe in incarnations of Lord Shiva.

"I thought Shiva was the destroyer and Brahma was the creator." Lord Shiva is all of these. I look at Brahma and Vishnu as names for various aspects of God or the facet they choose to worship
The metaphors and mythology and leave one confused because there are many for the same occasion.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[vsgrewal48895]

All mythology is a confusion caused by the writings of Vyasa/Byasa whose mother was born out of a fish who became pregnant by swallowing the semen of a flying sage. He wrote Vedas as well as Mahabharta.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਮਲ ਪੁਤੁ ਮੀਨ ਬਿਆਸਾ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਨ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵੈਗੋ॥ਜੋ ਜੋ ਭਗਤੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੋ ਪੂਜਹੁ ਭਰਮਨ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈਗੋ ॥

Barahm kamal puṯ mīn bi­āsā ṯap ṯāpan pūj karāvaigo.Jo jo bẖagaṯ ho­ė so pūjahu bẖarman bẖaram cẖukāvaigo.

Brahma, the son of the lotus, and Vyaas, the son of the fish, practiced austere penance and were worshipped. Whoever is a devotee, worship and adore him. Get rid of your doubts and superstitions. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Kanrha, AGGS, Page, 1309-7

Virinder

 

[spnadmin]

I guess a little clarification is needed it. I don't think much of the trimurti they are more or less different names for the names for God.
Lord Shiva is not an incarnation or avatar of Vishnu. Vishnu has had I think 9 incarnations to include Ram and Krishna and maybe 1 to come. We do not believe in incarnations of Lord Shiva.

"I thought Shiva was the destroyer and Brahma was the creator." Lord Shiva is all of these. I look at Brahma and Vishnu as names for various aspects of God or the facet they choose to worship
The metaphors and mythology and leave one confused because there are many for the same occasion.

Peace
Satyaban

Lord Shiva is indeed a primal deity and by some scholars considered a pre-Aryan deity associated with Agni among other early Indic gods. However, the lineage or incarnations of Shiva, Braham and Krishna are likely to be disputed depending on the branch of sanatan belief one follows.

Here is one source that I think explains pretty well how confusion arrises. Though from Wikipedia, its content does overlap with other sources on the subject.

Relationship to Vishnu

Vishnu (left half—blue) and Shiva (right half—white)




During the Vedic period, both Vishnu and Shiva (as identified with Rudra) played relatively minor roles, but by the time of the Brahmanas (c. 1000-700 BCE), both were gaining ascendance.[174] By the Puranic period, both deities had major sects that competed with one another for devotees.[175] Many stories developed showing different types of relationships between these two important deities.


Sectarian forces each presented their own preferred deity as supreme. Vishnu in his myths "becomes" Shiva.[176] The Vishnu Purana (4th c. CE) shows Vishnu awakening and becoming both Brahmā to create the world and Shiva to destroy it.[177] Shiva also is viewed as a manifestation of Vishnu in the Bhagavata Purana.[178] In Shaivite myths, on the other hand, Shiva comes to the fore and acts independently and alone to create, preserve, and destroy the world.[179] In one Shaivite myth of the origin of the lingam, both Vishnu and Brahmā are revealed as emanations from Shiva's manifestation as a towering pillar of flame.[180] The Śatarudrīya, a Shaivite hymn, says that Shiva is "of the form of Vishnu".[181] Differences in viewpoints between the two sects are apparent in the story of ŚarabhaNarasimha, the man-lion, who killed Hiranyakashipu, an ardent devotee of Shiva. (also spelled "Sharabha"), the name of Shiva's incarnation in the composite form of man, bird, and beast. Shiva assumed that unusual form to chastise Vishnu in his hybrid form as
Shiva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My own reason for stating that Shiva manifested from Vishnu comes from my reading of critiques of the Bhagatvata, and translated sections. Apologies if I have offended you.

 

[Satyaban]

Hello sister I hope you are well:
I have bad news and that is next to nothing in your post rings true with what I know about Lord Shiva's metaphor and mythology. Lord Shiva is in no way an underling to Vishnu in our stories. You could ask a hundred different "Hindus", I really don't like that term, the same questions and get a hundred different answers. That "Hinduwebsite" which you used to quote Manu The Law Giver is a washed out site sanitizes everything, gets things wrong and even has spelling errors, not much attention to detail there. There used to be a site "Hindunet.com" that has fallen into disrepair or something and really would you send someone to Wikipedia to learn about Sikhism I don't think so. Anyway I think the picture identified as Vishnu and Shiva is really Vishnu joined with his consort whose name escapes me right now. However it is the classic pose of God and consort, the are many of Lord Shiva joined with Parvati or Shakti.

Okay there are more schools of thought, philosophies and sects in India than you could count in a week and there are more scriptures than you could read in a lifetime. So it is not that hard to blindside someone who is not prepared.

The scriptures say:
He is the Supreme Brahman, the Self of all, the chief foundation of this world, subtler than subtle, eternal. That thou art; thou art that.
Atharva Veda

On the emergence of spontaneous supreme knowledge occurs the state of movement in the vast unlimited expanse of consciousness which is Shiva's state, the supreme state of Reality.
Shiva Sutras

While we are here there is one more subject I would like to bring up and that is dualism and non dualism. That is dualism in the sense that good and evil, high and low, them and us are fixed and not transcendable, the doctrine of which is that reality is ultimately composed of two irreducible principles entities, truths etc . God and soul for example are seen as eternally separate, dualistic. Whereas the doctrine of dual nondualism where reality is ultimately composed of one whole principle, substance or God with no independent parts. A dipolar view which encompasses both monism and dualism.
I think that is plenty enough to chew on besides I have to check out Christian existentialism as it relates to centerboard 40 ft sail boats. This site is tough isn't it?
This is what I believe and I had no intention to offend or proselytize anyone.

Pray for peace everyday
Satyaban

 

[vsgrewal48895]

DUALITY (ਦਵੈਤ)​

ABSTRACT​

In Sikhism duality/suspense/doubt implies the attitude and indifference of the materialist (ਸਾਕਤ), towards the love of God and devotion. One who kills duality and doubt lives a pure lifestyle, is spiritually wise, and meditates intuitively. Living in doubt and duality, one is not acceptable, even though one may perform millions of rituals, chants and austerities say Nanak:

ਤੀਰਥ ਵਰਤ ਸੁਚਿ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਭਾਇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥

Ŧirath varaṯ sucẖ sanjam nāhī karam ḏẖaram nahī pūjā, Nānak bẖā¬ė bẖagaṯ nisṯārā ḏubiḏẖā vi¬āpai ḏūjā.

People are engrossed in duality by performing pilgrimages, purification fasts, self-discipline, rituals, and religious ceremonies or empty worship. O Nanak, emancipation comes only through loving devotional worship. -----Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 75- 17 & 18

ਛਛੈ ਛਾਇਆ ਵਰਤੀ ਸਭ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀਆ ਭਰਮੁ ਹੋਆ ॥ਭਰਮੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਭੁਲਾਈਅਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਆ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਿਆ ॥

Cẖẖacẖẖai cẖẖā¬i¬ā varṯī sabẖ anṯar ṯėrā kī¬ā bẖaram ho¬ā. Bẖaram upā¬ė bẖulā¬ī¬an āpė ṯėrā karam ho¬ā ṯinĥ gurū mili¬ā.

Chhachha: Ignorance exists within everyone; doubt is Your doing, O Akal Purkh. Having created doubt, You Yourself causes them to wander in delusion; those whom You bless with Your Mercy meet with the Guru. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 433-1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original Sanskrit word for dualism is Dvaita, and for non-dualism Advaita. They represent the doctrine that man has two natures, spiritual and physical. According to Advaita, only the innermost part of a person is aware or conscious. No other part can feel or see or know anything. In all of us Conscience is the same, underlying absolute reality of the whole universe, which is called Brahman. Brahman corresponds to the Western idea of God, which cannot be anthropomorphized. It's impersonal; It's the source of everything; It's what the universe really is. It is the doctrine of distinct and separate existence of Braham and Maya. According to this Maya is not an illusion but a real existence contrary to the view in Hinduism where it is considered an illusion and unreal.

Guru Gobind Singh in his message in the Bachitar Natak advised the Sikhs that Sikh Gurus cannot be equaled to God they are just human beings and servants of God to deliver Akal Purkh’s message to the humanity. It is the God who has to be worshiped and Gurus are just teachers who should be respected by following their teachings. But still duality and idolatry continue in doubt of reality.

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਉਚਰ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥

Jo Ham Ko Parmeshar Ouchar Hai, Te Sabh Narak Kundh Meh Par Hai.

Whosoever calls me God, will fall in to the ditch of hell. -----DG, Page, 57

Here we see all kinds of pictures of Gurus and others being worshiped in the Gurudwaras.

He further states in Akal Ustit, DG, page, 14 & 15 how to find God;

ਕਹਾ ਭਯੋ ਦੋਊ ਲੋਚਨ ਮੂੰਦਕੈ ਬੈਠਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਬਕ ਧਯਾਨ ਲਗਾਇਓ ॥ ਬਾਸੁ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੈ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੌ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪੇ੍ਮ ਕੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਭੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥ ੯ ॥ ੨੯ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗੁ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਿਤਾ੍ਨ ਕੌ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥ ਕੂਰ ਕਿ੍ਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਜਗ ਸੀ੍ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥
੧੦ ॥ ੩੦ ॥

Kaha Bheo Deo Lochan Moondkai Baith Rahio Bak Dhyan Lagaeo, Bas Keo Bikhian So Baith Kai Aisay So Bais Bataeo, Saach Kaho Sun Leh Sabhai Jin Prem Keo Tin He Prabh Paeo, Kaho Lai Pahan Pooj Sir Kaho Lai Ling Garay Latkaeo, Kaho Lakheo Har Aavachi Disa Mai Kaho Ko Pachah Sis Nivaeo, Ko-ou Butaan Kou Poojat Hai Pso Ko-ou Mitran Kaou Poojan Dhaeo, Koor Kiria Orjheo Sabh Jag Sri Bhagwan Ko Bhayd Na Paa-eo.

What if you close your eyes and sit in meditation like a crane; take ablutions in the seven seas? This way you lose both this world and the next; if one continues to indulge in sinful things, he wastes his life; Let all listen to the truth I proclaim: Only he who loves the Akal Purkh attains It. Some worship the stone idol and other wear a lingam around their neck; some recognize God in the south and others bow their heads to the west; some ignorant ones worship the images and others worship the dead; the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine. -----Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustit, D.G. Page, 14-15

He further points out on page 24 in Dasam Granth (DG) that artificial rituals like Hom Jag are useless and are not equal to devotion and Naam;

ਬਿਨ ਭਗਤ ਸਕਤ ਨਹੀ ਪਰਤ ਪਾਨ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਮ ਅਰ ਜੱਗ ਦਾਨ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਏਕ ਨਾਮ ਇਕ ਚਿੱਤ ਲੀਨ ॥ ਫੋਕਟੋ ਸਰਬ ਧਰਮਾ ਬਿਹੀਨ ॥ ੨੦ ॥ ੧੪੦ ॥
Bin Bhagat Sakat Nhai Parat Paan, Boh Karat Hom Ur Jag Daan, Bin Ek Naam Ik Chit Leen, Fokto Sarb Dharma Baheen.

Thou can not realize the Akal Purkh without the power of devotion; many perform yajnas (Akhand Paths) and give charities but for placing the Name of Real One in heart, all other deeds are futile.

Guru Gobind Singh describes in Bachitar Natak, DG, Page, 46 the condition of religious attitudes;

ਮੋਨ ਭਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨ ਤਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਭੇਖ ਸਜੇ ਨਹੀ ਮੂੰਡ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ॥ ਕੰਠਿ ਨ ਕੰਠੀ ਕਠੋਰ ਧਰੈ ਨਹੀ ਸੀਸ ਜਟਾਨ ਕੇ ਜੂਟ ਸਹਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋ ਸੁਨਿ ਲੈ ਚਿਤੁਦੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੀਨ ਦਿਆਲ ਕੀ ਸਾਮ ਸਿਧਾਏ ॥ ਪੀ੍ਤ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਭ ਪਾਯਤ ਹੈ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ਨ ਭੀਜਤ ਲਾਂਡ ਕਟਾਏ ॥ ੧੦੦ ॥

Mon Bhajay Nahi Maan Tajay Nahi Bhaykh Sajay Nahi Moond Munda-ay, Kanth Na Knthi Kathir Dharai Nahi Sis Jataan Ke Joot Sahaa-ay, Saach Kaho Sun Lai Chitdai Bin Din Dayal Ki Saam Sidha-ay, Preet Karay Prabh Paaeyt Hai Kirpal Na Bheejat Laand Kataa-ay.

Akal Purkh cannot be attained by silent recitations, repudiation of pride, different guises and shaving of the head. One cannot get God by wearing rosary and keeping the matted hair on the head. I tell you the truth that with out going in the refuge of the compassionate God nothing will be accomplished. The Akal Purkh can be realized only through love and mere circumcision cannot melt Its heart.

In Sikhism duality implies the attitude of the materialist. It implies attachment to the world (ਸਾਕਤ) and indifference to God and to devotion.
Guru Arjan comments on duality in Raag Gauri;

ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੂਰਾ ॥ ਜੋ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਰਾ ॥---ਗੁਰਿ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਹੈ ਮਾਰੀ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੀ ॥

Jo is mārė so¬ī sūrā. Jo is mārė so¬ī pūrā. ---- Gur ḏubiḏẖā jā kī hai mārī. Kaho Nānak so barahm bīcẖārī.

One who kills this is a spiritual hero, is perfect, obtains glorious greatness, and is freed of suffering. How rare is such a person, who kills and casts off duality. Killing it, he attains Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success, has no fear, and is absorbed in the Naam. One who kills this has his desires quenched, approved in the Court of the Akal Purkh, is wealthy and prosperous, is honorable, is truly a celibate, and attains salvation. One who kills this - his coming is auspicious, is steady and wealthy, is very fortunate, remains awake and aware, night and day, and is Jivan Mukta, liberated while yet alive. One, who kills this, lives a pure lifestyle, is spiritually wise, and meditates intuitively. Without killing this, one is not acceptable, even though one may perform millions of rituals, chants and austerities, does not escape the cycle of reincarnation, one does not escape death, one does not obtain spiritual wisdom, one's impurity is not washed off, everything is filthy, and everything is a losing game. When the Akal, Purkh, the Treasure of Mercy, bestows Its Mercy, one obtains release, and attains total perfection. One whose duality has been killed by the Guru, says Nanak, contemplates God.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 237

ਦੂਜੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਲਗਿ ਵਿਗੁਤਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬੂਝ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥

Ḏūjai sabẖ ko lag viguṯā bin saṯgur būjẖ na pā¬ī.

Attached to duality, all are ruined; without the True Guru, there is no understanding.

ਭੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਕਟੀਐ ਨਾਮਿ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥

Bẖai bin bẖaram na katī¬ai nām na lagai pi¬ār.

Without the Fear of God, doubt is not dispelled, and love for the Name is not embraced. -----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1287 & 88

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥

Logā bẖaram na bẖūlahu bẖā¬ī. Kẖālik kẖalak kẖalak meh kẖālik pūr rahi¬o sarab ṯẖāʼn¬ī.

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places.-----Kabir, Raag Parbhati Bhibhas, AGGS, Page, 1350

ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਬਉਰੀ ਮਨੁ ਬਉਰਾਇਆ ॥ਝੂਠੈ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥ਲਪਟਿ ਰਹੀ ਫੁਨਿ ਬੰਧੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ॥ਨਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਰੈ ਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਰੈ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਭਉ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰੈ ॥

Ḏubiḏẖā ba¬urī man ba¬urā¬i¬ā. Jẖūṯẖai lālacẖ janam gavā¬i¬ā. Lapat rahī fun banḏẖ na pā¬i¬ā. Saṯgur rākẖė nām driṛ¬ā¬i¬ā. Nā man marai na mā¬i¬ā marai. Jin kicẖẖ kī¬ā so¬ī jāṇai sabḏ vīcẖār bẖa¬o sāgar ṯarai.

The insanity of duality has driven the mind insane. In false greed, life is wasting away. Duality clings to the mind; it cannot be restrained. The True Guru saves us, implanting the Naam, the Name of the Akal Purkh within. Without subduing the mind, Maya cannot be subdued. The One, who created this, alone understands. Contemplating the Word of the Sabd, one is carried across the terrifying world-ocean.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Parbhati, AGGS, Page, 1342

ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਜਾਗੈ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਮਰੈ ॥

Karam hovai gur kirpā karai. Ih man jāgai is man kī ḏubiḏẖā marai.

Who so ever is fortunate and pre-destined will be blessed with the Guru’s Grace, thus over-powering his dual-mindedness; he awakes to the reality of this life. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Bhario, AGGS, Page, 1129-1

ਅਭਿਆਗਤ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਜਿਨ ਕੇ ਚਿਤ ਮਹਿ ਭਰਮੁ ॥

Abẖi¬āgaṯ ėhi na ākẖī¬an jin kė cẖiṯ meh bẖaram.

Do not call the wandering beggars holy men, if their minds are filled with doubt.-----Guru Amardas, Sloke Vaaran Te Vadhik, AGGS, Page, 949-3

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਿੜਾਇਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਇਆ ॥

Gur pūrai har nām ḏiṛā¬i¬ā ṯin vicẖahu bẖaram cẖukā¬i¬ā.

The Perfect Guru has implanted the Akal Purkh's Name within me; it has dispelled my doubts from within. -----Guru Ramdas, Sloke Varan Te Vadheek, AGGS, Page, 1424-11

ਤਜਿ ਭਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਬਿਧਿ ਨਿਖੇਧ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਹੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਜਨ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥

Ŧaj bẖaram karam biḏẖ nikẖėḏẖ rām nām lėhī. Gur parsāḏ jan Kabīr rām kar sanėhī.

Abandon your doubts about do's and don’ts, and take to the Akal Purkh's Name. By Guru's Grace, O servant Kabir, love It. ----- Kabir, Raag Dhanasari, AGGS, Page, 692-16

ਵਰਤ ਨੇਮੁ ਸੁਚ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਪਾਖੰਡਿ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

varaṯ nėm sucẖ sanjam pūjā pakẖand bẖaram na jā¬ė.

By ritualistic fasts, vows, purities, self-disciplines and worship ceremonies, they still cannot get rid of their hypocrisy and doubt.-----Guru Ramdas, Sloke Vaaran Te Vadheek, AGGS, Page, 1423-5

There is perfection, but we realize it not by embracing the duality but ultimately recognizing “that we exist beyond it.” When we do not recognize that duality is the defining characteristic of our relative existence, we deny half our mind, which creates an internal conflict. We separate qualities of mind that we want to project to the world from those qualities that we feel that our minds should not possess (i.e., our shadow side). There is nothing more dreadful than the habit of doubt. Doubt separates people. It is a poison that disintegrates friendship and breaks up pleasant relations. It is a thorn that irritates and hurts and it is a sword that kills.

ਏ ਮਨ ਮੂਲਹੁ ਭੁਲਿਆ ਜਾਸਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇ ॥

Ė man mūlhu bẖuli▫ā jāsėh paṯ gavā▫e. Ih jagaṯ mohi ḏūjai vi¬āpi¬ā gurmaṯī sacẖ ḏẖi¬ā¬ė.

O mind, if you forget the Primal Akal Purkh, you shall depart, having lost your honor. This world is engrossed in the love of duality; follow the Guru's Teachings, and meditate on the True Akal Purkh. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page, 756-12

In simple terms of Sikh Faith, an individual can only get out of duality by suspending attachment to Maya, Matter or Materialism but loving the spirit, which is the innate nature of God. In other words what we cannot carry it with us after death. What ever dies is matter or Maya and the real thing does not die.

ਕਰਿ ਪੰਜੀਰੁ ਖਵਾਇਓ ਚੋਰ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਮਰੈ ਰੇ ਸਾਕਤ ਢੋਰ ॥

Kar panjīr kẖavā▫i▫o cẖor. Oh janam na marai rė sākaṯ dẖor.

You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god. God is not born, and does not die, you foolish, materialist! (Like AGGS considering it God)
-----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1136-3

Thus even the soul or spirit leaves the physical or material body after death.

ਕਾਇਆ ਹੰਸ ਕਿਆ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹੈ ਜਿ ਪਇਆ ਹੀ ਛਡਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਏਸ ਨੋ ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਿ ਖਵਾਲੀਐ ਜਿ ਚਲਦਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

Kā¬i¬ā hans ki¬ā parīṯ hai je pa¬i¬ā hī cẖẖad jā¬ė. Ės no kūṛ bol ke kẖavālī¬ai je cẖalḏi¬ā nāl na jā¬ė.

What love is this between the body and soul, which ends when the body falls? Why feed it by telling lies? When you leave, it does not go with you.-----Guru Amardas, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 510-19

ਥਾਕੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਘਾਲਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਲਾਥ ॥ ਸੰਚਿ ਸੰਚਿ ਸਾਕਤ ਮੂਏ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਾਇਆ ਨ ਸਾਥ ॥

Thākė baho biḏẖ gẖālṯė ṯaripaṯ na ṯarisnā lāth. Sancẖ sancẖ sākaṯ mū¬ė Nānak mā¬i¬ā na sāth.

They have grown weary, struggling in all sorts of ways; but they are not satisfied, and their thirst is not quenched. Gathering in and hoarding what they can, the materialist die, O Nanak, but the wealth of Maya does not go with them in the end.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 257-4

Conclusion;

Inherent to creation is the existence of opposites. Everything exists in contrast: there can be no good without evil, no right without wrong, no pleasure without pain, no security without insecurity, no happiness without unhappiness, no teacher without a student, no parent without a child, no enlightenment without delusion, and so forth. Life moves in cycles going from one extreme to the other. Non-dualism assumes that these dichotomies are illusionary at worst or inaccurate conveniences at best and similarly the pictures and idols of Gurus/Akal Purkh, as the later is formless (ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ).

The Primary Good is good, pure and simple, not by virtue of connection with some thing else, because there is nothing else above it. All things are below It, and receive good from It. It is further more an agent, whose action is intellect (The Higher Self), life, and every thing in which there is life and intelligence. It should not be supposed that evil/bad is opposite to the Primary Good, because there is no intermediary between them. The Primary Good has no opposite. Good either does not exist, or if it does exist, it has no opposite what so ever. But it is impossible for the Good not to exist, because it is the cause of causes.One will judge others as long as one is in duality say Guru Amardas in Raag Suhi;

ਬੁਰਾ ਭਲਾ ਤਿਚਰੁ ਆਖਦਾ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਹੈ ਦੁਹੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

Burā bẖalā ṯicẖar ākẖ¬ḏā jicẖar hai ḏuhu māhi.

One calls others bad and good, as long as he is in duality.-----Guru Amardas, Raag Suhi, AGGS, Page 757-6

The only thing for emancipation or union with the Akal Purkh is through love of devotion and living under Its Will/Fear; thus one should make an honest attempt to become a candidate for It’s Grace with complete removal of duality from the mind. It is the Grace of the Akal Purkh necessary to cross this worldly ocean (ਭਵਜਲ) by following the teachings incorporated in the Sabd Guru.


Virinder

 

[spnadmin]

Satyaban ji

Not only Wikipedia, but many sources on the net, will reflect biases within the Vedantic tradition. Shiva is seen to reincarnate, or not reincarnate according to the source writing the article. Of course Wikipedia is not the BEST source. However Shiva in one era, is represented by another deity in a previous era (Rudhra), or even a different locality in India.

In some traditions Kumara, Kama, Dattatreya and Bhairava are called avatars of Shiva. The Wikipedia article is not wrong in pointing out that the relationship of Shiva to other deities changes according to the denomination. Hinduism (not an accurate term) is not a simplistic path, but consists of multiple paths.

A devote of Vishnu sees Vishnu as essentially immutable, evolving from this state into avatars as the conditions of creation demand. A devote of Shiva sees the simply immutable. It is not a fixed pantheon. Knowing the reasons for the fluid identities of Hindu deities are probably more instructive when one wants to understand the philosophy expressed by their actions, than naming a deity and his avatars and reincarnations.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Guru Arjan describes Hindu Mythological names of Akal Purkh in Raag Maru;

ਅਚੁਤ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥ ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥ ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥ ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥ ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ॥ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ॥ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥ ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਸਰਬੰਗਾ ॥ ਨਿਹਕੰਟਕੁ ਨਿਹਕੇਵਲੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ ਧਨੰਜੈ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਹੈ ਮਹੀਐ ॥ ਮਿਰਤ ਲੋਕ ਪਇਆਲ ਸਮੀਪਤ ਅਸਥਿਰ ਥਾਨੁ ਜਿਸੁ ਹੈ ਅਭਗਾ ॥ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਦੁਖ ਭੈ ਭੰਜਨੁ ॥ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਨਿਵਾਰਣੁ ਹੈ ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨੁ ॥ ਭਗਤੀ ਤੋਖਿਤ ਦੀਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲਾ ਗੁਣੇ ਨ ਕਿਤ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਭਿਗਾ ॥ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਛਲ ਅਡੋਲੋ ॥ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਆਪਹੁ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪਾਵੈਗਾ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਵੈ ਬਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਵਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਖਪਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਲੇਪੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਏਕ ਜੀਹ ਗੁਣ ਕਵਨ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥ਸਹਸ ਫਨੀ ਸੇਖ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥ ਨਵਤਨ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਹਿ ਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਓਟ ਗਹੀ ਜਗਤ ਪਿਤ ਸਰਣਾਇਆ ॥ ਭੈ ਭਇਆਨਕ ਜਮਦੂਤ ਦੁਤਰ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਹੋਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਇਛਾ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਹੈ ਸਗਲ ਮਿਥੇਨਾ ॥ ਇਕੁ ਮਾਗਉ ਦਾਨੁ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਸੰਤ ਰੇਨਾ॥ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਲਾਇ ਪਰਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਵਉ ਜਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈਗਾ॥ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੀ ਸੁਖਦਾਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਣ ਲੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਪਰਾਤੇ ॥ ਸਗਲ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਤਿਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਮਨਿ ਵਾਜੰਗਾ ॥ ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤ ਪਏ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਦੇਹੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਲਗਾ ॥ ਤੇਰੀ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਤੂਹੈ ਜਾਣਹਿ ॥ ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਕਥਹਿ ਤੈ ਆਪਿ ਵਖਾਣਹਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਦਾਸਨ ਕੋ ਕਰੀਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਦਾਸਾ ਰਾਖੁ ਸੰਗਾ ॥
Acẖuṯ pārbarahm parmesur anṯarjāmī. Maḏẖusūḏan ḏāmoḏar su▫āmī. Rikẖīkes govarḏẖan ḏẖārī murlī manohar har rangā. Mohan māḏẖav krisan murāre. Jagḏīsur har jī▫o asur sangẖāre.Jagjīvan abẖināsī ṯẖākur gẖat gẖat vāsī hai sangā. Ḏẖarṇīḏẖar īs narsingẖ nārā▫iṇ. Ḏāṛā agre paritham ḏẖarā▫iṇ. Bāvan rūp kī▫ā ṯuḏẖ karṯe sabẖ hī seṯī hai cẖanga. Sarī rāmcẖanḏ jis rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā. Banvālī cẖakarpāṇ ḏaras anūpi▫ā. Sahas neṯar mūraṯ hai sahsā ik ḏāṯā sabẖ hai mangā. Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal anāthah nāthe. Gopī nāth sagal hai sāthe. Bāsuḏev niranjan ḏāṯe baran na sāka▫o guṇ angā. Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā▫iṇ. Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ. Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa▫o. Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏe nāhī kẖa▫o. Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. Sarīrang baikunṯẖ ke vāsī. Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi▫ā a▫uṯrāsī. Kesav cẖalaṯ karahi nirāle kīṯā loṛėh so ho▫igā. Nirāhārī nirvair samā▫i▫ā. Ḏẖār kẖel cẖaṯurbẖuj kahā▫i▫ā. Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāvėh beṇ sunaṯ sabẖ mohaigā. Banmālā bibẖūkẖan kamal nain. Sunḏar kundal mukat bain. Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī. Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī. Sāringḏẖar bẖagvān bīṯẖulā mai gaṇaṯ na āvai sarbangā. Nihkantak nihkeval kahī▫ai. Ḏẖananjai jal thal hai mahī▫ai. Miraṯ lok pa▫i▫āl samīpaṯ asthir thān jis hai abẖgā. Paṯiṯ pāvan ḏukẖ bẖai bẖanjan. Ahaʼnkār nivāraṇ hai bẖav kẖandan. Bẖagṯī ṯokẖiṯ ḏīn kirpālā guṇe na kiṯ hī hai bẖigā. Nirankār acẖẖal adolo. Joṯ sarūpī sabẖ jag ma▫ulo. So milai jis āp milā▫e āphu ko▫e na pāvaigā. Āpe gopī āpe kānā. Āpe ga▫ū cẖarāvai bānā. Āp upāvėh āp kẖapāvėh ṯuḏẖ lep nahī ik ṯil rangā. Ėk jīh guṇ kavan bakẖānai. Sahas fanī sekẖ anṯ na jānai. Navṯan nām japai ḏin rāṯī ik guṇ nāhī parabẖ kahi sangā. Ot gahī jagaṯ piṯ sarṇā▫i▫ā. Bẖai bẖa▫i▫ānak jamḏūṯ ḏuṯar hai mā▫i▫ā. Hohu kirpāl icẖẖā kar rākẖo sāḏẖ sanṯan kai sang sangā. Ḏaristimān hai sagal mithenā. Ik māga▫o ḏān gobiḏ sanṯ renā. Masṯak lā▫e param paḏ pāva▫o jis parāpaṯ so pāvaigā. Jin ka▫o kirpā karī sukẖ▫ḏāṯe. Ŧin sāḏẖū cẖaraṇ lai riḏai parāṯe. Sagal nām niḏẖān ṯin pā▫i▫ā anhaḏ sabaḏ man vājangā. Kirṯam nām kathe ṯere jihbā. Saṯ nām ṯerā parā pūrbalā. Kaho Nānak bẖagaṯ pa▫e sarṇā▫ī ḏeh ḏaras man rang lagā. Ŧerī gaṯ miṯ ṯūhai jāṇėh. Ŧū āpe kathėh ṯai āp vakāṇėh. Nānak ḏās ḏāsan ko karī▫ahu har bẖāvai ḏāsā rākẖ sangā.

The Supreme God is imperishable and is the Transcendent Akal Purkh, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts, Slayer of demons, and our Supreme Master. The Supreme Sage, and the Master of the sensory organs, the up lifter of mountains, the joyful Akal Purkh playing Its enticing flute, and Enticer of Hearts, Creator of wealth, Krishna, and the Enemy of ego. The Creator of the Universe, the Dear Akal Purkh is the Destroyer of demons. The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Creator and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme God, The Protector who tears apart demons with Its teeth, the Upholder of the earth. O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the God of all. You are the Great Ram Chand, who has no form or feature. Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the master less. The Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. O Akal Purkh, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. Liberator, Enticing God, Creator of Lakshmi, The Supreme God. Savior of Dropadi's honor. Creator of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. The Blessed Vision of Its Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; It is not born, and is self-existent. Its form is undying; it is never destroyed. O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Akal Purkh, everything is attached to The Lover of greatness dwelling in heaven. By the Pleasure of Its Will, It took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise. The God with beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever It wishes, comes to pass. It is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading. It has staged Its play; and is called the four-armed God. It assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing Its flute, all are fascinated and enticed. It is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes. Its ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful. It carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; It is the Great Charioteer, who stays with Its Devotees. The God with yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds and The Creator of the Universe, with my mouth, I chant Its Name. The Archer who draws the bow, the Beloved God; I cannot count all Its limbs and is said to be free of anguish, and absolutely immaculate. The Master of prosperity, pervading the water, the land and the sky is near this world and the nether regions of the underworld; Its Place is permanent, ever-stable and imperishable. Akal Purkh is the Purifier of sinners, the Destroyer of pain and fear. The Eliminator of egotism, the Eradicator of coming and going is pleased with devotional worship and merciful to the meek; and cannot be appeased by any other qualities. The Formless God is un-deceivable, unchanging, and is the Embodiment of Light; through It, the whole world blossoms forth. It alone unites with It self, no one can attain It by himself. It It-self is the milk-maid, and Krishna. It It-self grazes the cows in the forest. It Itself creates and destroys. Not even a particle of filth attached to It. Which of Its Glorious Virtues can I chant with my one tongue? Even the thousand-headed serpent does not know Your limit. One may chant new names for You day and night, but even so, O God, no one can describe even one of Your Glorious Virtues. I have grasped the Support, and entered the Sanctuary of the Akal Purkh, the Father of the world. The Messenger of Death is terrifying and horrendous, and sea of Maya is impassable. Please be merciful, and save me, if it is Your Will; please lead me to join with the Company of the Holy. All that is seen is an illusion. I beg for this one gift, for the dust of the feet of the Saints, O Creator of the Universe. Applying it to my forehead, I obtain the supreme status; he alone obtains it, unto whom You give it. Those, unto whom the God, the Giver of peace, grants Its Mercy, grasp the feet of the Holy, and weave them into their hearts. They obtain all the wealth of the Name of the Akal Purkh; the unstruck sound current of the Sabd vibrates and resounds within their minds. With my tongue I chant the Names given to You. 'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name. Says Nanak, Your devotees have entered Your Sanctuary. Please bestow the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan; their minds are filled with love for You. You alone know Your state and extent. You Yourself speak, and You Yourself describe it. Please make Nanak the slave of Your slaves, O Akal Purkh; as it pleases Your Will, please keep him with Your slaves. -----Guru Arjan, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1082-1083

Virinder

 

[Satyaban]

Wow brother that was quite a post and very enlightening. In some ways we think the same ans in some way we think differently. for instance to quote from your post "The original Sanskrit word for dualism is Dvaita, and for non-dualism Advaita", of course we use these terms I refrained from using them but mention the meaning we attach to them in fact I almost quoted Satguru Sivaya Submunniyaswami. Furthermore you went on to say or quote "Some worship the stone idol and other wear a lingam around their neck; some recognize God in the south and others bow their heads to the west; some ignorant ones worship the images and others worship the dead; the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine." Many of us believe that since God is in us, to include you, all things seen and unseen and the places inbetween God is most certainly in a mountain, a rock or a piece of excrement. If you were a like minded person what would you like to have as a part of your worship, you can't drag a mountain in, certainly not another human and not a piece of excrement.

Since I am not a Sikh and although I am a member of this site I try to behave as a guest and try to include in my statements the phrase this I believe not this is the way it is because I don't have empirical evidence and neither do you. So I am a bit alarmed by this next quote.
"You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god. God is not born, and does not die, you foolish, materialist! (Like AGGS considering it God)
-----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1136-3"
I don't know I thought every religion made a symbolic offering or prassad to God before eating. I know it is your scripture but I question why you brought it out to call me a foll when it was germain to nothing my old sarcastic self wants to say something like wow you mean that stone head ain't alive I am powerfully glad you told me. All this time I thout he wasn't hungry phsaw you learn sompin evry day don't ya.

This is very hard for me to say and I can't remember the last time I said it but you are not one of my favorite people to talk to and will talk to you no more.

Peace
Satyaban

 

[spnadmin]

Satyaban ji

There are times when we can get carried away with the words of our Gurus and forget the context in which they were writing. I don't feel your reaction is out of place, and you are entitled to an explanation. With your permission, let me try to do that.

Wow brother that was quite a post and very enlightening. In some ways we think the same ans in some way we think differently. for instance to quote from your post "The original Sanskrit word for dualism is Dvaita, and for non-dualism Advaita", of course we use these terms I refrained from using them but mention the meaning we attach to them in fact I almost quoted Satguru Sivaya Submunniyaswami.

When discussing some of the deeper spiritual concepts that arise from early vedic philosophy, and continue in the Sanskirt glossary of words we must know if we are to understand dharmic religions, BY ALL MEANS do quote Vedic philosophers when you feel it will clarify. In the case of Submunniyaswami -- and I was reading something of his today -- there is a lot that he says that brings manifestations of Hindu deities back to a fundamentally monotheistic and dharmic center, and that tends to be over-looked. Frankly there is so much complexity that it is easy to miss.

Furthermore you went on to say or quote "Some worship the stone idol and other wear a lingam around their neck; some recognize God in the south and others bow their heads to the west; some ignorant ones worship the images and others worship the dead; the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine."

This words are from Gobind Singh. Sikhs, Hindus, and everyone else should note that he is saying "the entire world is engrossed in false rituals and none knows the mystery of the Divine." These words had one truth when they were written because the core dharmic ethic of the early Vedas had been usurped many times by members of the Brahmin caste, and by ascetics, who were protecting their prerogatives at the expense of many others, including Sikhs, including other Hindus. Today these words have a different truth -- because too many of us are engaged in modern day poojas of one kind or another -- delusional thinking about entitlement and the path to power and control of others by status and wealth. This, and in many other places in Guru's Banee and the Banee of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, if read superficially, seem like a blanket indictment of Hindus. Appearances are deceiving. Looking a little deeper, we can see the message is for everyone to heed.


Many of us believe that since God is in us, to include you, all things seen and unseen and the places in between God is most certainly in a mountain, a rock or a piece of excrement. If you were a like minded person what would you like to have as a part of your worship, you can't drag a mountain in, certainly not another human and not a piece of excrement.

Since I am not a Sikh and although I am a member of this site I try to behave as a guest and try to include in my statements the phrase this I believe not this is the way it is because I don't have empirical evidence and neither do you. So I am a bit alarmed by this next quote.
"You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god. God is not born, and does not die, you foolish, materialist! (Like AGGS considering it God)
-----Guru Arjan, Raag Bhairo, AGGS, Page, 1136-3"

Guru Arjan Dev is foreshadowing the statement of Guru Gobind Singh, making precisely the same point. When we vest our sense of reality in the material world and are stuck there, the we are foolish. Think of the treats we feed to today's idols. The Guru's were speaking of the twisted morality and corruption of their time. But they were also teaching lessons for us today -- because we do the same twisted things. Only our idols are celebrities and politicians.


I don't know I thought every religion made a symbolic offering or prassad to God before eating. I know it is your scripture but I question why you brought it out to call me a foll when it was germain to nothing my old sarcastic self wants to say something like wow you mean that stone head ain't alive I am powerfully glad you told me. All this time I thout he wasn't hungry phsaw you learn sompin evry day don't ya.

Where one can go wrong is by forgetting that, within vedantic philosophy, are the same warnings regarding duality, regarding maya, regarding materialism, rendering us fools. Then and now. And it is important to be careful not to create the impression that the Gurus were indicting humanity or Hindus. They were calling us then and now to moral account. To dharma.

This is very hard for me to say and I can't remember the last time I said it but you are not one of my favorite people to talk to and will talk to you no more.



Peace
Satyaban

I am myself guilty of these generalizations. Gurbani was not intended to alienate anyone but to include everyone. Forgive me for that. The first Sikhs were Hindus and Muslims. Then they were neither Hindus nor Muslims, rising above labeling (hope I am right on this last point). You are always a polite member of our forum.

 

[spnadmin]

Virinder ji

You know that I am one of the most strident voices when I perceive undermining of Sikhism occurring here. Please give me that - even when I am not my gentle best.

But in the interests of fair play I have to ask you where you found the sentence below. Do you have a reference? Surely there is a reference.

All mythology is a confusion caused by the writings of Vyasa/Byasa whose mother was born out of a fish who became pregnant by swallowing the semen of a flying sage. He wrote Vedas as well as Mahabharta.

Virinder

Mythology can be called confusion. But is "All mythology" a "Confusion" caused by the writings of Vyasa/Byasa? And was his mother born of a fish? Did she become pregnant by swallowing the semen of a flying sage? Who ever accused Vyasa of causing confusion by writing mythology, did a pretty good job of testing the facts himself. Don't you agree?

Now it is true that Vyasa wrote the Vedas and the Mahabharta. We don't have to venerate him to acknowledge that he made a contribution to world religions.

I am on a bit of a rant here. One thing I complain about it the tendency to say that all religions are the same, lead in the same direction and worship the same god/deity. I feel that way because I see this as in imposition of "sameness" which I experience as oppression. It is important to me to celebrate religious diversity. So the strained criticism of Vyasa has to be something that I also protest -- or I am a hypocrit.

Guru Amardas is strongly suggesting that Sikhs turn their consciousness away from austerities and rituals and turn consciousness instead toward the light of Waheguru. He is saying overcome the superstitions that are ineffective and only entrench us in unrealistic doubt and fear.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਮਲ ਪੁਤੁ ਮੀਨ ਬਿਆਸਾ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਨ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵੈਗੋ॥ਜੋ ਜੋ ਭਗਤੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੋ ਪੂਜਹੁ ਭਰਮਨ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈਗੋ ॥

Barahm kamal puṯ mīn bi*āsā ṯap ṯāpan pūj karāvaigo.Jo jo bẖagaṯ ho*ė so pūjahu bẖarman bẖaram cẖukāvaigo.

Brahma, the son of the lotus, and Vyaas, the son of the fish, practiced austere penance and were worshipped. Whoever is a devotee, worship and adore him. Get rid of your doubts and superstitions. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Kanrha, AGGS, Page, 1309-7

Could Guru Amardas be commenting on something more profound than a mythic image of Vyasa, "son of the fish?" He could be saying -- Stop it! You are worshipping the myth of Vyasa. Myth states Vyasa is the son of a fish, who was impregnated by a flying sage. That won't help! Worship and adore Him, the Satguru, the jewel of the Naam. Could he be saying take your head out of the mists of mythology? And based on that line from Gurbani, I am certain that Guru Amardas did not believe for one minute that Vyasa was the son of a fish. He is working with a metaphor. We should take a look at the complete shabad before misreading what Guru Amardas was really getting at.

Here is the historical Vyasa
SriPedia: Veda Vyasa



And here is a bit more of the shabad -- It is Guru Ram Das, not Guru Amardas

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
kirapaa kirapaa kirapaa kar har jeeo kar kirapaa naam lagaavaigo ||
Mercy, mercy, mercy - O Dear Lord, please shower Your Mercy on me, and attach me to Your Name.


ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈਗੋ ॥੧॥
kar kirapaa sathiguroo milaavahu mil sathigur naam dhhiaavaigo ||1||
Please be Merciful, and lead me to meet the True Guru; meeting the True Guru, I meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||1||


ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਲੁ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
janam janam kee houmai mal laagee mil sangath mal lehi jaavaigo ||
The filth of egotism from countless incarnations sticks to me; joining the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, this filth is washed away.


ਜਿਉ ਲੋਹਾ ਤਰਿਓ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਾਸਟ ਲਗਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੨॥
jio lohaa thariou sang kaasatt lag sabadh guroo har paavaigo ||2||
As iron is carried across if it is attached to wood, one who is attached to the Word of the Guru's Shabad finds the Lord. ||2||


ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੰਤ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਆਵੈਗੋ ॥
sangath santh milahu sathasangath mil sangath har ras aavaigo ||
Joining the Society of the Saints, joining the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, you shall come to receive the Sublime Essence of the Lord.


ਬਿਨੁ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੀ ਕਢਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਚੀਕੜੁ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੩॥
bin sangath karam karai abhimaanee kadt paanee cheekarr paavaigo ||3||
But not joining the Sangat, and committing actions in egotistical pride, is like drawing out clean water, and throwing it in the mud. ||3||

ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਰਖਵਾਰੇ ਜਨ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਮੀਠ ਲਗਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
bhagath janaa kae har rakhavaarae jan har ras meeth lagaavaigo ||
The Lord is the Protector and Saving Grace of His humble devotees. The Lord's Sublime Essence seems so sweet to these humble beings.


ਖਿਨੁ ਖਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਸਮਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੪॥
khin khin naam dhaee vaddiaaee sathigur oupadhaes samaavaigo ||4||
Each and every instant, they are blessed with the Glorious Greatness of the Naam; through the Teachings of the True Guru, they are absorbed in Him. ||4||


ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਵਿ ਰਹੀਐ ਜਨ ਨਿਵਹਿ ਤਾ ਫਲ ਗੁਨ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
bhagath janaa ko sadhaa niv reheeai jan nivehi thaa fal gun paavaigo ||
Bow forever in deep respect to the humble devotees; if you bow to those humble beings, you shall obtain the fruit of virtue.


ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਦੁਸਟ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਕੀ ਹਰਨਾਖਸ ਜਿਉ ਪਚਿ ਜਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੫॥
jo nindhaa dhusatt karehi bhagathaa kee haranaakhas jio pach jaavaigo ||5||
Those wicked enemies who slander the devotees are destroyed, like Harnaakhash. ||5||


ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਮਲ ਪੁਤੁ ਮੀਨ ਬਿਆਸਾ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਨ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
breham kamal puth meen biaasaa thap thaapan pooj karaavaigo ||
Brahma, the son of the lotus, and Vyaas, the son of the fish, practiced austere penance and were worshipped.


ਜੋ ਜੋ ਭਗਤੁ ਹੋਇ ਸੋ ਪੂਜਹੁ ਭਰਮਨ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੬॥
jo jo bhagath hoe so poojahu bharaman bharam chukaavaigo ||6||
Whoever is a devotee - worship and adore that person. Get rid of your doubts and superstitions. ||6||


Guru ji is begging Waheguru to attach him to His Name. And Guruji is teaching us to bow to the servants of the Satguru, and to worship and adore the bhagath, the humble being who is absorbed in devotion. Guruj is saying that when we withdraw from the sangat of the sants we are acting in egotistical pride. So this is about the importance of having devotion that is genuine and not rooted in ritual and austerity which can make us feel very penitential and proud, but it is all ego. This is not an indictment is of Vynasa but a plea that we not mistake ritual for authentic love of the Naam.

 

[vsgrewal48895]

Dear Naryanjot Ji,

Here are the references as you requested;

Dictionary of Mythological References in AGGS​

BY


Surinder Singh Kohli​

BYASA (VYASA)​

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਮੁਨਿ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਕਰਣ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਅ ॥
Guṇ gāvai mun beās jin beḏ ba▫yākaraṇ bīcẖāri▫a.

Vyaas the silent sage, who studied the Vedas and its grammar, sings His Praise.----- Bhatt Kal;-Sahar,Swayye Mahle Pahle Ke, p. 1390-15

ਨਾਰਦ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਆਸੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੈ ਸੁਕ ਕਉ ਪੂਛਹੁ ਜਾਈ ॥
Nāraḏ bacẖan bi▫ās kahaṯ hai suk ka▫o pūcẖẖahu jā▫ī.

Naarad and Vyaasa say these things; go and ask Suk Dayv as well.-----Kabir, Raag Maru, AGGS, Page, 1103-4

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਮਲ ਪੁਤੁ ਮੀਨ ਬਿਆਸਾ ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਨ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
Barahm kamal puṯ mīn bi▫āsā ṯap ṯāpan pūj karāvaigo.

Brahma, the son of the lotus, and Vyaas, the son of the fish, practiced austere penance and were worshipped. -----Guru Amardas, Raag Kanra, AGGS, Page, 1309-7

Brahma, the son of Lotus (who sprang from the navel-lotus of Vishnu) and Byasa, the son of fish (fisher-woman Satyavati) performed austerities and became adorable.

Comments: Vyasa was a great Brahmin sage. He was the son of the sage Parasara and Matsyodari (called Machhodari). His mother was born of a fish, who had swallowed the semen of some sage. Parasara after his sexual contact with Machhodari named her as Yojana Gandhari (one whose body-fragrance spreads up to one Yojana i.e. about four miles). Yojana Gandhari was later on married to king Shantanu, the father of Bhishma Pitamaha and was named Satyavati. As mistress of Parasara, Yojana Ghandhari gave birth to Vyasa and as queen Satyavati she gave birth to two sons (both of them died young and childless). Their widows namely Ambika and Ambalika through niyoga with Vyasa gave birth to the blind Dhritarashtra and Pandu. (See the entries Gangeva Pitama and Vidur). Page, 42

Vyasa performed great austerities in a forest and was also the father of the great sage Suka. He was a great author and compiler and is known as Veda Vyasa. He is said to be the compiler of Mahabharata, the founder of Vedanta philosophy and the editor of the Puraanas. In his works, he talks about the dynasties of the ancient kings and has recorded the sayings of many famous sages including Narada. His other name is Krishna Dwaipayana.

Page, 43

Cordially,

Virinder

PS, Please read all my postings in context as to my writings. Some get disappeared and others have no response. It is requested that please ask a question one at a time. The whole confusion is that all Hindu Mythology is a metaphor in AGGS IMHO. All names are given to the only One Akal Purkh. IMHO there has been on Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva. These are the attributes of the same God.

 

[Satyaban]

Narayanjot Ji

Yet another fine post.

Peace
Satyaban

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/narayanjot-kaur.html

 

[Lee]

I think the answer to this is very simple. Beacuse God populated the world with many and veriad peoples, and mindsets.

 

[spnadmin]

Lee ji

The best explanation is the simplest explanation. :happy:

 

[Satyaban]

Narayanjot ji

I was wrong, your description of the picture is accurate, evident by the trisula, the snake and the tiger skin, and I have found others.


Peace
Satyaban