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spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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19,219
Respected forum members,

After some early comments I wanted to back out of this discussion and let members all have their say. But this morning it appeared that maybe I needed to say something again. Especially in reaction to those who think that Obama confuses Sikhs with Hindus. Please understand my remarks in the context of a US citizen who has been following presidential politics her entire life.

First of all on the subject of "sanatam dharma." Perhaps less than 1 percent of the US public knows what sanatam dharma is. With the exception of that percentage of Hindus, Sikhs and religious scholars who have actually studied this subject, virtually no one has heard of it. There are even Sikhs in the US who do not know "sanatan dharma." This could be a display of shocking ignorance on the part of the general US public, but it is true. I wager that even President Obama has not heard of "sanatam dharma." So I doubt it played any part whatsoever in the fact that Sikhs were left out of the inaugural address.

Same thing with "hindutva" agendas. The people who would know about "hindutva" more than any other in the US would be political science professors who study South Asia. Maybe some other academics have a vague memory of hearing about this. To the average American, even the highly educated, the political landscape of India is hard to comprehend because "we" do not have the kind of press coverage that takes the time to examine the layers and layers of history that are needed to understand the "saffron agenda" and its impact on Sikh identity. Believe me when I say this. President Obama was not confusing Sikhs with Hindus -- even if the Indian Government itself is not clear on this point.

Finally -- in the US, a very small fraction of people have an informed understanding of the word "Sikh." Most in fact do not have this word in their vocabulary. Americans are very "insular" people. We live on a continent but think we live on an island. Now this percentage who do recognize Sikhism as an independent religion is larger than the group who never heard of "sanatan dharma." This group, who do know about Sikhism and who do have the word "Sikh" in their minds, still are not really sure what that means. They recognize that men with beards, and turbans are Sikhs. Sometimes they recognize the kara and the kirpan are symbols of Sikhism. They know that Sikhs originated from India. That is all they know... strange as that may seem, it is true. (Example, my 88 year old mother actually spent 4 years in India when she was in her 20's during World War II. When I told her I was a practicing Sikh, she said "What is that? I saw Sikhs in India, but what who are they?" OMG? I thought to myself.) This is America -- most people are very tolerant, but they are not intellectually curious. Those who are intolerant are also not intellectually curious. (And this second group is the group to be worried about.)

There are also some in the US public that do understand that Sikhism is a separate religion. This group does not confuse Sikhism with Hinduism. Again their comprehension is very limited. All they know is that Sikhs follow a monotheistic religion and they mistakenly believe that Sikhism is some kind of religious combo of Islam and Hinduism. THIS IS THE MORE EDUCATED GROUP! By now you should see what Sikhs are up against in the US. Mostly it is cavalier ignorance and that is bad enough.

Conclusion: US presidents depend on aides to provide material for their speeches. These aides come from academia and think tanks. If the most educated layer of the US does not really comprehend Sikhism, what kind of information do you think they are going to bring to the table when a president writes a speech?

VaheugurSeekr ji has summed up the Obama perspective in the most concise and helpful way -- judge Obama by his deeds and his values. The oversight of Sikhs in his inaugural speech should be understood as unfortunate. I asked myself the same question you are asking now -- WHERE ARE THE SIKHS? But then I remembered that the presidential aides are the ones who needed to go to school on this one.

Forgive me if I have offended any Sikh in my comments. :eek: I do not mean to offend you. Everyone else who is offended should go to the library and read a book on comparative religions. :D
 

kds1980

SPNer
Apr 3, 2005
4,502
2,743
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INDIA
Hindus and Sikhs are one (not in religious sense but culture and nationality) and will remain united for eternity.

Just as Sikh Gurus saved the lives of and fought for rights of Hindus against Muslim Mughals the Indian Hindus also returned the favour by settling Sikh refugees from Pakistan after 1947 Independence when they were being butchered by Pakistani Muslims in central Punjab - the homeland of Sikhs, now in eastern Pakistan.

RSS and Hindu Nationalists helped much in Sikh rehabilitation in Indian Punjab which was then 2/3 Hindu majority and also due to severing of Himachal Pradesh and Haryana from it Indian Punjab is now Sikh majority due this voluntary grant by Hindus and re-merger with HP & Haryana as the original Indian Punjab will make Sikhs again 1/3 minority. So question of Khalistan in India don't arise as also in truncated Indian Sikh majority Punjab as gifted by Hindu majority India, still 40% are Hindus and their security and rights will be always safeguarded by 90 crore Hindus of the globe! During 1984 anti-Sikh riots in India by Congress again the RSS saved many a Sardars!

But, unfortunately many Sikhs are angry and scared of RSS as they say Sikhs are Hindus!

The reality is Hindu Nationalists call all Indians as Hindus (not by religion but cultural nationality alone) due to thousands of years of same culture which continued even after Sikhism after it started 500 years before. They also call Indian Muslims and Christians as Hindus by Christi Hindus and Muhammadi Hindus per nationality.

Now if Sikhs despise this they can use the term Indian for Hindus to differentiate from Hindus (by religion actually called Sanatan Dharmis).

There would have been no problem for Sikhs and neither they would get annihilated if they believed them as a sect of Hindus like Jains (still very strong) and some current Sikh sects as there is nothing in Sikhism which is against Vedas rather Ek Omkar is dereived from Ekam Sadbiprah Bahuda Vadanti and Hinduism allows total freedom of faith!

As for casteism and such social evils, all Indian religions and not just Hinduism have them so Dalit Sikhs are moving away from Jat Sikhs and joining such non-Sikh, non-Hindu organisations like Dera Saccha Sauda of a fraud Baba!

Still Sikhs have the right to be seperate religiously but even then they can't seperate from Indian Nation which they and Hindus jointly formed from Vedic times as Indian nation was born then in Punjab first at the hands of their same ancestors! Now Hindu Nationalists call this Indian Nation as Hindu Nation (not religiously but by cultural nationalism) as we really are or else there is no difference with Paksitan or Afghanistan where Sikhs are even now tortured - IRIN Asia | Asia | Afghanistan | AFGHANISTAN: Focus on Hindus and Sikhs in Kandahar | Conflict | Feature

Till 1947 it was the practise of many Punjabi Hindu families to send their eldest and ablest sons to be Sikhs and likewise many Sikhs even now worship Mata Vaishno Devi and Lord Amarnath in the belief that Sikhs are part of Hinduism.

Akalis the true Sikhs resent these but then these so called Sikhs worshipping Hindu deities or Punjabi and Sindhi Hindus worshipping and adoring Guru Granth Sahib and photos of Sikh Gurus are syncretists and neither Sikhs nor Hindus should discourage their freedom of be afraid of them as per laws of religious liberty taught by Sikh Gurus.

Hence, if Sikhs still want "Khalistan" it must be created in Pakistan (eastern part) as it was the homeland of Sikhs with all major Gurudwaras except few like in Bihar and Maharastra are in Indian Punjab. Ranjit Singh's Sikh empire was also made of northern Pakistan and Afghanistan and Indian Punjab i.e, cis-Sutlej Missles were under British Dominion.

Hence in Indian Punjab there were never any independent free Sikh land and neither will be!

If Khalistan is created in Pakistan and Afghanistan Khalistani Sikhs may remain sure that Indian Govt will giv ethem their holy city of Amritsar which only falls in India as Hindus are always liberal!


What are you saying?.The ratio of undivided punjab was like 55:30:15 , muslim,hindu and sikhs.Jinnah at at all cost want whole punjab in pakistan.For this he even gave white paper to master tara singh,but he refused .Sikhs decided to be with India that's why the Eastern punjab was given to India.Sikhs were butchered in partition because they refused to be with jinnah.So don't try to portray sikhs as beggers or refugee's
 

Admin

SPNer
Jun 1, 2004
6,692
5,240
SPN
Thank you!! the member has be officially warned. Please use Report this Post option in future so that we can take necessary action promptly. Thanks again for the feedback. Regards
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
Sat shri akal,:D

What the Heck ????
it isn`t funny man.........
OMG

oh yeah it isnt funny!:cool:
and i thought il only be warned when caught driving a car without a license.
Allah,Ram,Jesus,waheguru all of them refer to the same power and i haven't done anything wrong by replacing one with another doesn't Ram Ram and Allah Ram sound equally good.Waheguru can be replaced by Jesus and if not why so?:confused:
Guru Sahib was the one to teach that Ram and Rahim are one and the same.what kind of Sikh are you cant you understand the teaching of your Guru.:down:
 

Admin

SPNer
Jun 1, 2004
6,692
5,240
SPN
Saint Soldier Ji, we all here are learning. Our understanding is limited to our knowledge. It would be great if you could look into your dairy and share with us your understanding on Waheguru? What do you interpret by the term Waheguru and enlighten us? :)

Thank you,
Warm Regards
 

Admin

SPNer
Jun 1, 2004
6,692
5,240
SPN
Its the name of God in your religion if I'm not wrong .:yes:
So, by your own (mis)-interpretation are you not limiting the scope of Waheguru when you replaced the word with Jesus? In my limited understanding Jesus/Guru Nanak/Mohammed (pbuh),Ram were the messengers of God/Waheguru. Here lies the offense. Do not try to limit the scope of Sikhi with your mischievous comments here and there... :idea:

Best Regards
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
wasn't Ram the name of a prophet too why did Guru ji used it then?
where is Jesus(the one you called prophet right now) right now isn't he a part of God.
plz do not force your limited thinking on me you Sikhism following creature's have turned out to be nothing more than Hindus and Muslims sometimes i feel as if one cannot remain a Sikh without accepting Sikhism because people like you never let him live plz let me follow my father the way i want you are free to do what ever you feel like.
and these are not my words out of anger.
~Jesus sahia~
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
saint soldier ji

My thoughts on the matter now under discussion. The comment that was deleted now has to be included in my comments so that my expression of concern makes sense. Christians and Sikhs alike forgive me for this.

"Jesus ji ka Khalsa! Jesus ji ki Fateh" is your adaptation of "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa! Waheguru ji ki Fateh." (The khalsa belong to God; Victory belongs to God)

"Waheguru ji ka Khalsa! Waheguru ji ki Fateh" was given to Sikhs. I am not sure that the historical circumstances of this statement, which have nothing to do with Christians, can be ignored -- but for now I will leave that part out. In Christian theology Jesus is understood to be an human incarnation of God. Sikhs do not accept the idea of an incarnate God. Jesus is also viewed by Christians as the Son of God.

If you substitute Jesus for Waheguru, then it would appear to some of us that the idea that Waheguru is self-existent, without father or mother, has been repealed by you.

On the flip side. For Christians your adaptation of "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa! Waheguru ji ki Fateh" can also be offensive. By substituting the name of Jesus for Waheguru it can/does seem as if names are interchangeable. But that is not the case in Christian thinking. You see, Jesus ki ka Khalsa would mean that the khalsa belong to Jesus. Do they? No!

I am not even certain that the Khalsa themselves want to belong to Jesus. If it takes a lot explaining to sort out your point about Jesus and Waheguru so that no one is offended, then maybe it was not a good idea to begin with.
 
Jun 1, 2008
183
13
oh what times have come I'm explaining to the Sikhs that Jesus and Waheguru are one those Sikhs who follow Guru Nanak i cannot comment anymore i can smell a feeling of helplessness within me forgive me men's of this world but i was not wrong not at all and I'm not ashamed of it not at all. i hope you will delete all my posts in this topic aad ji its a request for God sake!
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,024
7,183
Henderson, NV.
oh what times have come I'm explaining to the Sikhs that Jesus and Waheguru are one those Sikhs who follow Guru Nanak i cannot comment anymore i can smell a feeling of helplessness within me forgive me men's of this world but i was not wrong not at all and I'm not ashamed of it not at all. i hope you will delete all my posts in this topic aad ji its a request for God sake!

Saint Soldier ji,

Guru Fateh

I have no idea what kind of cross you are carrying in your mind, but it sure seems quite a heavy one.You seem in a lot of internal agony.

Your decision to folllow whomever or whatever is entirely yours. No one can impede that especially a Sikh because Sikhi way of life is about internal manisfestaion, it is not an external imposition because love can not be imposed. It has to be germinated from the withn.

But whatever your pain and suffering laced with agony and ecstasy may be, what does this have to do with Obama?

Please help me understand that.

Tejwant Singh
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jul 4, 2004
7,708
14,381
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KUALA LUMPUR MALAYSIA
Ordinarily "Name" is GIVEN BY the PARENT.
Ordinarily Name is a PROPER NOUN.

Waheguru..Akal purakh has no parents...nobody can give him a "name"..thus there is NO PROPER NOUN NAME for Waheguru....akal purakh..
ALL the so called "Names" of Akal Purakh are KIRTAM...DESCRIPTIONS....ADJECTIVES...

Raam..the Ramiah houa..one that is immersed throghout....Rahim..the beneficient....

The PROPHETS..Jesus..Moses..Abraham..Muhammad.. all had PARENTS who gave them those Names proper nouns.... so same goes for Guru nanak Ji and the rest of the Gurus... AKAL PURAKH WAHEGURU IS UNBORN>>SELF CREATED>>no name !!
 

mein murakh

SPNer
Dec 2, 2008
7
1
KHUDDI KO KAR BULAND ITNAA KE HAR TAKDIR SE PAHLE KHUDDA BANDE SE KHUD POOCHE,"E BANDE BATAA TERI RAZA KAYAA HAI"---------:happy:-that is the sipirt ------:yes: [ok lets do some positive}
 

JimRinX

SPNer
Aug 13, 2008
166
148
Portland, Oregon, U.S.A.
To Gyani Jarnail Singh and VaheguruSeekr.
Many of us have been giving our troubled young friend, Saint Soldier, some - hopefully - Good Advice, regarding Angst, the Illusion of Success, etc., over on the 'Our 4 Days in Maya' thread - which seems more appropriate, as this young fella' has been blinded by a Light that has more to do with Neon Advertising, than The Lord!:yes:
Check It Out!
 

shearwater

SPNer
Apr 3, 2008
67
18
I think the Sikh Religion is only a minority in relative terms. From my understanding, there are over 80 million Sikhs throughout the world. Compared to India's population of about one billion, that is a fairly small number. However, compared to the Roman Catholic Religion which has about 900.000,000, the Sikh religion is almost 10% as large.
 
Dec 22, 2006
2
0
maybe becz. these are the four major religious contributors to our population in the u.s. smarties, he didn't mention buddism, zaoism/zorastrianism, scientology, zenism, and etc. either. like wow. . . ur really good at research your own answers.
-no he just hates sikh's that's why he picked one as his attorny general.
 

pk70

Writer
SPNer
Feb 25, 2008
1,582
627
USA
In today’s world, for a recognition, it depends who beats the drum loud, Christians and Jews are part of American culture for centuries, Muslims got heard regardless the way they did it, Hindus have a country beating its drums only in favor of one religion. Poor Sikhs, Buddhists and other people of other faith just have to endure this drama of show off louder drums because I believe if a few more words were added in the speech it would have added only a second in the given time of speech of President Obama, the guy failed to even say “and other faiths” while talking about faiths. Even if he did what would have changed? We have been living without recognition for centuries; we would in the future too. It is better not to chase the illusions of names. Only important thing is how he deals with the problem our world community faced with. I wish him good luck though I didn’t vote for him!!!!:)
 
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