Why Do Many Faiths Recommend Self-denial Such As Fasting Or Shunning Luxuries?

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Jarnail Singh ji, I would like to see this sentence in some form in SGGS.

Because I have not yet encountered anything like that.


Something about that just bugs me. Please don't take what I say the wrong way. There are five observations I made. No judgements...
1. We have assumed that the Gurus are equal in "naam contemplation".
2. They are at extremes and yet they want us to be in moderation.
3. Also that could also mean that their views did not match up all the time.
4. The above seem to be very human qualities.
5. Some people will be (greatly) offended by #4.

1. The Guru Jyot is ONE. So they are equals.
2. "Extremes" are two poles of everything...Guru Ji showed us BOTH.....
AAD GURU..Guur nanak Ji sahib from Birth...40 years of age..Guru Angad Ji. (After decades of Devi yatras) ...80 years of age Guru Amardass Ji... ( after a LIFETIME of Hindu rituals)...5 Years old Guru Har Kishan Ji...
The Walker Guru - Guru Nanak Ji..the sacrificing Guru Arjan Ji, the Martial Guru hargobind Ji..the Child Guru Har Kishan Ji..the Medical soft hearted soft spoken Guru Har rai..the one who died for others Guru teg baahdur Jia nd who sacriifced everything for his Khalsa..Guur Gobind Singh...all angles ...covered.
3. Thoer Views not only match all the time..they match with Bhagts and Bards and sufis...as well...Kabir Ji, namdev Ji, Ravidass Ji sheikh farid Ji,,Bhikhan Shah Ji etc etc...the entire SGGS is in complete sync.
4. The Gurus were HUMANS as well...they never pretended to be otherwise....were BORN the usual way..grew up doing the usual things..married and had kids..went about their way as householders..all human habits..AND they were EXTRA-Human as well...as showed by their lives...And that si the real beauty of Gurmatt..we HUMANS can relate to it very well...its not some fairytale fantasy world of heavens and hells.its a practical lifestyle. No fairy maidens or rivers of milk and honey..or virgins and houris..just ones own JUST DESSERTS..sow what you reap.
5. POVERTY is NOT a "recommended state" in Gurmatt. A Sikh has to earn his upkeep..dish out 10% daswandh..and waand chhako and enjoy life..no penances, fastings, beatings etc etc.
This is my understanding.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Jarnail Singh ji,
I did a search on srigranth.org and I found passages that I think confirm your "we have to live in it..so ENJOY IT.. BUT dont get carried away by it..as sole pursuit "
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੇ

ਜੇ ਲਖ ਇਸਤਰੀਆ ਭੋਗ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਰਾਜੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
जे लख इसतरीआ भोग करहि नव खंड राजु कमाहि ॥
Je lakẖ isṯarī▫ā bẖog karahi nav kẖand rāj kamāhi.
You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਗੁਰ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥੩॥
बिनु सतगुर सुखु न पावई फिरि फिरि जोनी पाहि ॥३॥
Bin saṯgur sukẖ na pāv▫ī fir fir jonī pāhi. ||3||
But without the True Guru, you will not find peace; you will be reincarnated over and over again. ||3||
Page 26, Line 16 - by Guru AmarDas ji

ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਾਦਿ ਹਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
सभि रस भोगण बादि हहि सभि सीगार विकार ॥
Sabẖ ras bẖogaṇ bāḏ hėh sabẖ sīgār vikār.
Her enjoyment of all pleasures is futile, and all her decorations are corrupt.
ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਭੇਦੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਸੋਹੈ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
जब लगु सबदि न भेदीऐ किउ सोहै गुरदुआरि ॥
Jab lag sabaḏ na bẖeḏī▫ai ki▫o sohai gurḏu▫ār.
Until she has been pierced through with the Shabad, how can she look beautiful at Guru's Gate?
ਨਾਨਕ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਸਹ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੧੩॥
नानक धंनु सुहागणी जिन सह नालि पिआरु ॥५॥१३॥
Nānak ḏẖan suhāgaṇī jin sah nāl pi▫ār. ||5||13||
O Nanak, blessed is that fortunate bride, who is in love with her Husband Lord. ||5||13||
Page 19, Line 5

Great! So if you are in love with the "Husband Lord" you enjoyments are worth it, it not then they are worthless.
But real value is in loving the "Husband Lord", "True Guru" and "Name of the Lord".

Page 13, Line 13

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ਟੇਕ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੇ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੪॥੪॥
जन नानक नामु अधारु टेक है हरि नामे ही सुखु मंडा हे ॥४॥४॥
Jan Nānak nām aḏẖār tek hai har nāme hī sukẖ mandā he. ||4||4||
Servant Nanak takes the Sustenance and Support of the Naam. In the Name of the Lord, he enjoys celestial peace. ||4||4||
Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Let's discuss what those phrases mean, perhaps in another thead.
and this phrase as well "how can she look beautiful at Guru's Gate?"
What does it mean exactly?
They don't seem to be pantheistic and they don't translate very well to "energy" or "truth". It seems like Wahguru is a pesonal God. Especially, when one considers (all) the passages below, and considers phrases like "Husband Lord".

Page 21, Line 18
ਕਾਇਆ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਜੇ ਕਰੀ ਭੋਗੇ ਭੋਗਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
काइआ कामणि जे करी भोगे भोगणहारु ॥
Kā▫i▫ā kāmaṇ je karī bẖoge bẖogaṇhār.
If I surrender my body like a bride, the Enjoyer will enjoy me.
Guru Nanak Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok
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More related to this thread topic:

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਇਕ

ਇਕ ਦੂ ਜੀਭੌ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਲਖ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਲਖ ਵੀਸ ॥
इक दू जीभौ लख होहि लख होवहि लख वीस ॥
Ik ḏū jībẖou lakẖ hohi lakẖ hovėh lakẖ vīs.
If I had 100,000 tongues, and these were then multiplied twenty times more, with each tongue,
ਲਖੁ ਲਖੁ ਗੇੜਾ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ॥
लखु लखु गेड़ा आखीअहि एकु नामु जगदीस ॥
Lakẖ lakẖ geṛā ākẖī▫ahi ek nām jagḏīs.
I would repeat, hundreds of thousands of times, the Name of the One, the Lord of the Universe.

ਏਤੁ ਰਾਹਿ ਪਤਿ ਪਵੜੀਆ ਚੜੀਐ ਹੋਇ ਇਕੀਸ ॥
एतु राहि पति पवड़ीआ चड़ीऐ होइ इकीस ॥
Ėṯ rāhi paṯ pavṛī▫ā cẖaṛī▫ai ho▫e ikīs.
Along this path to our Husband Lord, we climb the steps of the ladder, and come to merge with Him.
Page 7, Line 7

Here Guru Nanak Dev ji seems to be suggesting that the name of God is to be repeated in order to reach him. I think this is "Naam contemplation", as mentioned earlier. Narayanjot Kaur ji presented a shabad which clearly stated that this is better than:

• Meditative chants, intense deep meditation, austere [strict] self-discipline and rituals
• Fasting, daily rituals, and austere [strict] self-discipline
• Reciting the four Vedas from memory

We should instead:

• Serve the Guru, and meditate on the Naam; renounce the egotistical pride from your mind.

It seems as if one shouldn't perform meditative chants but recite naam over and over again. What's the difference? and How is this better than other rituals people perform?

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Why is "Naam Contemption", the repeating of Name, given higher considerations than something everyone values, charity?

<table width="84%"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤੀਰਥੁ

ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥
तीरथु तपु दइआ दतु दानु ॥
Ŧirath ṯap ḏa▫i▫ā ḏaṯ ḏān.
Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity -
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
जे को पावै तिल का मानु ॥
Je ko pāvai ṯil kā mān.
these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit.
Page 4, Line 14 Guru Nanak Dev ji

</td></tr></tbody></table>

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=46&english=t&id=1870#l1870

Page 46, Line 5
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਮੁਖੁ ਊਜਲਾ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
गुर परसादी मुखु ऊजला जपि नामु दानु इसनानु ॥
Gur parsādī mukẖ ūjlā jap nām ḏān isnān.
By Guru's Grace, your face shall be radiant. Chanting the Naam, you shall receive the benefits of giving charity and taking cleansing baths.
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The VITAL and MOST IMPORTANT "ingredient" in the above lines and the entire SGGS..is GUR PARSAAD..Meaning WITH HIS KIRPA.....the GURU's GRACE..the Gurus KIRPA.

EVEN..Naam Japp/contemplation..is as useless as compassion, fasting, pilgrimages, donations, baths, whatever....IF the ALL IMPORTANT GUR PARSAAD is MISSING.

Millions of tongues..multiplied by billions more..all chanting the "EK naam of Jagdeesh" are utterly without Merit IF..the GURPARSAAD...His GRACE is MISSING.

The GUR PARSAAD element is set out right at the Beginning of SGGS...and Living as per HIS HUKM is the One and ONLY WAY to BREAK downa the WALL of Falsehood separating us from HIM.

No human can ever have a MILLION tongues..multipleid by billion times...SO whats the POINT ?? Its a Metaphor to show that the ALL IMPORTANT GURPARSAAD must be sought after..and the ONE SINGLE TONGUE we all are gifted with is SUFFICIENT. Our age of about 70-100 Years is also SUFFICIENT..we have no need to have a lifetime of...Lakh lakh Years LONG (elsewhere in SGGS metaphor of countless centuries age is emntioend )..AGain its the GUR PARSAAD and not the age that matters...

GUR PARSAAD is HIS..perogative..He can gift it to a child who only said His Naam once !!!.......He can WITHOLD IT from a "Mahapurash" who has naam japped with a "million tongues for a ages and ages.." THIS is what Guru Ji is trying to tell us...imho.

Download a copy of the Sikh Bulletin from The Sikh Bulletin: January-Februrary 2010 and read the Japji Sahib explained by dr Karminder Singh which has been serialised since November 2009.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Jarnail Singh ji, what page on the Sikh bulletin? Punjabi gets all mushed up when I look at it. I can't tell where the explanation is.

Yes I noticed the Gur Parsad is even more important and that is even more puzzling for me. Let's come back to Gur Prasad later. First let's address the questions I raised.