General Why Do You Think The World Is Burning?

[Seeker2013]

Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

Thank you Inderjeet ji - this is an incredibly good point.



Aren't we all puppets under the Puppeteer? Do we have free will? I thought there was only one Doer? Who gives the charity, and who steals from the coffer?

If bad deeds and events don't occur in the same space as the Creator, where do they exist?

If pleasure and suffering are both Its Gifts, but that suffering is inflicted at the hands of another person, then ... does not compute.

How can the nasty person's actions be their own actions but the virtuous actions are those of the Creator? If only the Creator exists then who is doing nasty things?

EXACTLY MY POINTS !
thanks for bringing this up ! Finally someone understood what I've been tryint to say all the while

 

[findingmyway]

Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

Seeker ji,
Please do some research. There are LOTS of threads covering this topic, some of which I actually posted in your last thread. Have you read any?
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/search.php?searchid=233705
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/shabad-of-the-week/41562-shabad-week-mann-mohe-n-bujhe.html

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

I wonder how many believe that "hukam" and "God's will" are the same thing?

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

Free Will can be neither proven nor disproven. I accept it as true because without it, my life would be pointless and meaningless and I know my life has meaning.:cheerleaders:

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

Freewill in Sikhi is totally different than what it is in the Abrahamic and in the other religions

Freewill in Sikhi is a process. It is not the beginning but the ends brought in through the Gurmat means.

Freewill is to cultivate freedom as a human from all aspects with the help of SGGS, our only Guru.

As this freedom of freewill is cultivated, one becomes free to accept Hukam with open arms which brings good and bad things in the world that affect our lives.

Freewill is earned, not given on a platter to the Mann. It is attained by learning how to live in freedom from the within. It is to be able to accept Hukam which is unchangeable but the best part of it is that we have learnt through Gurmat values how to make the best lemonade from any kind of lemons life offers us. Some may be dry and stale.

This is freewill in Sikhi.

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

But is God's will the same as hukam? I think that is causing some issues to turn a wheel of hopelessness.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

I wonder how many believe that "hukam" and "God's will" are the same thing?

But is God's will the same as hukam? I think that is causing some issues to turn a wheel of hopelessness.

Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh.

They are two totally different things according to my understanding. “God's will” is used in the religions that involve deities- a personified entity. This is the reason, Seeker2013 is confused about things. He has not been able to differentiate the differences between Sikhi and other religions. He blames everything on this deity god that he has in his mind which has nothing to do with Sikhi.

Findingmyway ji and others have urged him to read some threads in order to cultivate better understanding of the self which as a result will create understandings of the self-created baseless confusions.

One more thing, as there is only “God’s will”, and then there cannot be any freewill. As a matter of fact, neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament mentions freewill in any verse.

Let’s take the meaning of "God’s will" from the Abrahamic point of view. It is all God’s Will according to the Abrahamic religions.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:2 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Isaiah 45:7,” I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

In Islam, it is the same thing. It is all about “God’s Will”

"Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills let him disbelieve." [Soorah al-Kahf (18): 29]

And we all know what happens to Kafirs-the disbelievers in Islam.

The above shows how this Abrahamic deity god is one evil, punisher, vengeful and jealous. The Bible is full of verses like that.

Natural disasters are punishment from the same god unlike in Sikhi.

“As for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh.” (Genesis 6:17)

“There will occur during these years neither dew nor rain, except at the order of [God’s] word!”—1 Kings 17:1

"Hukam" has nothing to do with "God’s will" because god in Sikhi is not any personified deity with human traits of being evil, vengeful, and jealous, punisher.

Sikhi teaches us with the help of SGGS, our only Guru how to face the negative forces of life like natural disasters, personal tragedies etc. etc. This is called "Hukam".

Ik Ong Kaar is not a deity, hence sans any personal negative traits.
We learn through Gurbani how to accept Hukam in both positive and negative way.

Merging with Ik Ong Kaar in this very life means the acceptance of Hukam, dusting off and carrying on.

In closing, “God’s Will” is an imposition of punishment whereas “Hukam” is the acceptance and hence dealing with whatever we face in our lives.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Harry Haller]

In closing, “God’s Will” is an imposition of punishment whereas “Hukam” is the acceptance and hence dealing with whatever we face in our lives.

Tejwantji

Where does the smoker who has smoked all his life and subsequently caught lung cancer fit into this, How can they accept as Hukam that which has been self caused?

In these circumstances was the Hukam of their own making, is there a battle between Hukam and the self?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwantji

Where does the smoker who has smoked all his life and subsequently caught lung cancer fit into this, How can they accept as Hukam that which has been self caused?

In these circumstances was the Hukam of their own making, is there a battle between Hukam and the self?

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

The smokers are not Sikhs that I know of. If they smoke with or without the turbans on, then they cease to have Sikhi values and can not call themselves Sikhs, hence the question of following the Hukum becomes mute and irrelevant for them.

I am talking about the Sikhs who follow the teachings of SGGS, our only Guru which tells us not to harm ourselves in any form on purpose.

Gurbani uses the word ਮੂਲ 184 times in different ways which loosely translated means "self value". It is only attained by looking after our body,mind and spirit in all aspects. And refraining from smoking is one part of that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

The smokers are not Sikhs that I know of. If they smoke with or without the turbans on, then they cease to have Sikhi values and can not call themselves Sikhs, hence the question of following the Hukum becomes mute and irrelevant for them.

I am talking about the Sikhs who follow the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru which tells us not to harm ourselves in any form on purpose.

Gurbani uses the word ਮੂਲ 184 times in different ways which loosely translated means "self value". It is only attained by looking after our body,mind and spirit in all aspects. And refraining from smoking is one part of that.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Tejwantji

apologies, the reference to smoking was purely random, I mean those in general who make the wrong decisions that effect the general outcome of their lives, those that suffer from their own hand, surely the acceptance is of ones own failings rather than acceptance of Hukam?

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Tejwantji

apologies, the reference to smoking was purely random, I mean those in general who make the wrong decisions that effect the general outcome of their lives, those that suffer from their own hand, surely the acceptance is of ones own failings rather than acceptance of Hukam?

Exactly. This becomes a self inflicted wound. One has to understand Hukam in order to accept it. One who understands it, is not able to reject it because it becomes innate part of one's understanding of Ik Ong Kaar.

 

[Harry Haller]

Exactly. This becomes a self inflicted wound. One has to understand Hukam in order to accept it. One who understands it, is not able to reject it because it becomes innate part of one's understanding of Ik Ong Kaar.

clearly for one to understand it fully, one has to make every effort to live then as Gursikh.

One who has lived by the grace of God can take comfort that whatever happens is Hukam, one who does not has no comfort at all, only regrets?

The question as to why the world is burning then becomes clearer, it is the will of the manmukh that burns the world.....

 

[AngloSikhPeace]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Who says that the world is burning? Or burning any worse than it always has been? The modern times are an unprecedented age of peace. It all depends on the perspective that you look from.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

clearly for one to understand it fully, one has to make every effort to live then as Gursikh.

One who has lived by the grace of God can take comfort that whatever happens is Hukam, one who does not has no comfort at all, only regrets?

The question as to why the world is burning then becomes clearer, it is the will of the manmukh that burns the world.....

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

The above in bold is very relative. To be honest, I was shocked at the title of the thread by Seeker2013. It is to grab attention and in his own myopic view the world is burning and he blames the gods for that as he is not on that pathway. Sadly, you got sucked into it.

Pragmatically speaking, it is our duty as humans to "put out the fire" provided one is able to show the empirical evidence about it, which is a must.

And things are happening. The middle classes in India and China have grown more than the populations of UK and some other countries put together. Brazil has bigger economy than UK now. BRIC countries are all growing. People like Bill Gates are trying to eradicate many diseases in the countries where not even UN has been able to do anything. Melinda Gates, a devout Catholic has gone against the Christian missionaries from all denominations in order to distribute contraceptives so that women can be free to choose when to have a family so they can have careers rather than breeding kids like rabbits. One can go on and on.

The freedom is being fought in the middle east. People all over dust off and bring the best when they are hit with the natural disasters and many other good things are happening.

Now, if one gets sucked into this rhetorical senseless slogan, then it is ashes to ashes for them in all aspects which would be self inflicted and has nothing to do with the Hukam as per Sikhi values.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

 

[AngloSikhPeace]

Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

The above in bold is very relative. To be honest, I was shocked at the title of the thread by Seeker2013. It is to grab attention and in his own myopic view the world is burning and he blames the gods for that as he is not on that pathway. Sadly, you got sucked into it.

Pragmatically speaking, it is our duty as humans to "put out the fire" provided one is able to show the empirical evidence about it, which is a must.

And things are happening. The middle class in India and China have grown more than the populations of UK and some other countries put together.

The freedom is being fought in the middle east. People all over dust off and bring the best when they are hit with the natural disasters and many other good things are happening.

Now, if one gets sucked into this rhetorical senseless slogan, then it is ashes for ashes for them in all aspects which would be self inflicted and has nothing to do with the Hukam as per Sikhi values.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Indeed, the world isn't a mess, it's just how it usually is. Horrible things happen, but they have always happened, and nowadays there are many new beneficial things, such as our advanced medicines and institutionalised humanitarian aid. The Indian ocean tsunami for example killed 250 thousand people, but if it had happened centuries ago many millions would have died.

As for the original poster's real question of 'if God is good, why does evil exist in the world he created?', philosophers and thinkers have been debating that for centuries and there's never been a clear answer. Certainly an internet forum won't help you find out.
Guruji teaches us that all these millions of theories people make about why God does things are all futile in the end. Waheguru's Will is Unknowable and impossible for humans to understand, even what He reveals in Gurbani can take many years of study to comprehend. We cannot know the answer truly, not any more than a fly can work out the reason why the pane of glass it walks upon was put there.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

Regarding this whole thread, beginning with the title, this quote from Dag Hammarskjöld may be relevant.

“Is life so wretched? Isn't it rather your hands which are too small, your vision which is muddled? You are the one who must grow up.”
― Dag Hammarskjöld

 

[Harry Haller]

T

he above in bold is very relative. To be honest, I was shocked at the title of the thread by Seeker2013. It is to grab attention and in his own myopic view the world is burning and he blames the gods for that as he is not on that pathway. Sadly, you got sucked into it

actually that last line was an afterthought, I was trying to bring the thread back on topic, rather than go down the Hukam tangent.......