Sects Why Have Sikhs Changed Sikhism?

[OSingh]

Gyani Jarnail singh ji,

I do not agree with all of your views ie meat, dasam granth. However I still respect you as a Gursikh and agree with you on many points also ie importance of grammer in Gurbani, sikhism being separate from other religions etc.

An important quality of a Gursikh is to love the creation of Akal Purakh including fellow human beings and especially fellow Gursikhs. At the end of the day our views may differ but we all share that love for sri Guru Nanak Dev ji.

I agree, it will be very hard to find a Gursikh today on the same level as bhai sahib. The uniqueness of bhai Randhir Singh ji was that he was a bhagat, scholar and warrior. Even to this day, apart from bhai Nand Lal ji and bhai Gurdas ji, no one has produced the quality and quantity of books bhai sahib wrote. Bhai sahib proved that Gurmat is a unique religion distinct from other religions and philosophies ie Vedant. He proved that the dasam duar described in Gurbani was different to the dasam duar of yogis. He explained the importance of grammar of gurbani. He described the five khands mentioned in sri Jap ji sahib.......................

I urge anyone before making snap judgements on AKJ or bhai sahib please take some time out and read his books. For English readers I highly recommend 'Jail Chittian' which is the autobiography of bhai sahib.

Rabb Rakhe

 

[lionprinceuk]

lion-prince-jatinder ji,

Maybe you should have done more research before just copying and pasting from this website. The website itself gives a description of 'Sanatan Sikhi' saying that four orders (groups) were set-up by Guru Sahib to 'spread righteousness' namely Udhasis, Nirmales, Seva Panthis and Nihangs. They claim that each of these orders have specific roles ie Nirmales - scholars, Nihangs - warriors.

However these claims are false. There is no historical basis that 4 orders were blessed by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Guru Gobind Singh ji set up one order in 1699 Vaisakhi in sri Anandpur Sahib and it is called the Khalsa.

These claims are false, how so? And the modern created jathebandis are somehow more authentic and righteous?

And of course by "righteousness" they mean dharam.
OK, let me discuss the 4 orders for you:

Udasis- started by Baba Sri Chand, Bhai Gurditta ji was given to the udasis by one of the Guru jis as well.

Nirmalas - The 5 sikhs that Guru Gobind Singh sent to Benares to increase their gyaan/knowledge and education.

Sevapanthis - These were started by Bhai Kanaiaya ji, and you must know his sakhi with Guru Gobind Singh?

Nihangs - Obviously at Guru Gobind Singhs times - the Akali Nihangs and the Khalsa were one and the same!

 

[Ambarsaria]

These claims are false, how so? And the modern created jathebandis are somehow more authentic and righteous?

And of course by "righteousness" they mean dharam.
OK, let me discuss the 4 orders for you:

Udasis- started by Baba Sri Chand, Bhai Gurditta ji was given to the udasis by one of the Guru jis as well.

Nirmalas - The 5 sikhs that Guru Gobind Singh sent to Benares to increase their gyaan/knowledge and education.

Sevapanthis - These were started by Bhai Kanaiaya ji, and you must know his sakhi with Guru Gobind Singh?

Nihangs - Obviously at Guru Gobind Singhs times - the Akali Nihangs and the Khalsa were one and the same!

I assume the three underlined above are not Khalsa of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji, and I would agree with you. There are few posts by some so associated (they don't declare but it is so obvious) to misrepresent or mis-translate SGGS and hence misguide the present and future generations towards Sanatanism.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

I don't think Bhai Gurditta ji was gifted to Udasis by Guru Sahib, Bhai Gurditta joined on his own choice. And there is a whole thread about the Nirmala Sikhs on why Guru Gobind Singh would want his Sikhs to 'infiltrate' the Brahmins to learn Sanskrit, when Gurbani clearly asks to avoid them! Sevapanthis were probably started holding Bhai Kanhaiya ji as their inspiration.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ambarsaria ji,
Yes the above three are not Khalsa (the order/sect established by Guru Gobidn Singh ji), though they can take amrit and become Khalsa. Khalsa has direct connections with the military, they there to provide armed services in the service of the panth (This has obviously changed today Khalsa has stopped learning martial arts). Not all Khalsa are Nihangs but all Nihangs are Khalsa. Not all Sikhs were Khalsa during Guru Gobind Singh ji's time nor did he want them to be.

All of the above are Snatan, traditional Sikhs. Their practices come from the time of Guru Sahibs. Udasis adopted Guru Nanak Dev ji's udasi tradition and go around preaching Sikhism. Nirmalas are more knowledgeable than you or I, as they were sent to study the context of Sikhism, etc etc. I do not think they are misguiding anyone. They consider their view of Sikhism to be true just as you consider yours to be true. All views operate under different frameworks. How well the frameworks are supported by Gurbani is what you guys differ on. You consider yours to be more supported than their framework and they consider their framework to be more supported by Gurbani than yours.

Kanwaljit Singh ji,
Guru Hargobind Sahib ji offered his son Bhai Gurditta, at a very young age to the Udasis.
I don't think Nirmalas infiltrated any place to learn Sanskrit. They didn't need to.
Brahmins (philosophers) had good relations with the Gurus. Three or them went with Guru Tegh Bahadur ji to Chandni Chowk and got martyred. Twelve authors of Guru Granth Sahib are Brahmins. They provide a lot of insight into the rest of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the social context of Guru Sahibs.

Cheers

 

[Harry Haller]

How well the frameworks are supported by Gurbani is what you guys differ on. You consider yours to be more supported than their framework and they consider their framework to be more supported by Gurbani than yours.

You make it sound like we have a choice in the matter, I am not sure that we do...........

But I do believe all logical frameworks within Sikhi end up at the same place

 

[lionprinceuk]

How well the frameworks are supported by Gurbani is what you guys differ on. You consider yours to be more supported than their framework and they consider their framework to be more supported by Gurbani than yours.

You make it sound like we have a choice in the matter, I am not sure that we do...........

But I do believe all logical frameworks within Sikhi end up at the same place

Unfortunately this did not happen. There was no choice in the matter, please read further.
To summarise the Lahore Singh Sabha movement : to sum up it was about sikhs of one framework kicking out sikhs of another framework from the gurdwaras of punjab and Akal Takht. Fortunately the movement didn't work outside of punjab.

One framework is against culture and traditions and prefers a "pure thinking" following religion and the God of Abraham and of the protestant Christians, whilst the other supports ancient culture and traditions, and was successful in attracting so many hindus and even muslims to the path of dharam.

Also the nihangs and their bana became outlawed under British Raaj, being seen in bana got you shot. So like I said, there was no choice in which framework to follow, it was either follow one framework or die following the other!

 

[lionprinceuk]

I assume the three underlined above are not Khalsa of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji, and I would agree with you. There are few posts by some so associated (they don't declare but it is so obvious) to misrepresent or mis-translate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and hence misguide the present and future generations towards Sanatanism.

Sat Sri Akal.

Sanatanism is a paranoid and made up term by stupid untraditional people on culturally misunderstanding sites like panthic.org .

Sanatan dharm is emphasising on following dharm, with sanatan being the term something that lasts forever (Exact meaning someone can explain please?). Also shows dharm to be ancient. Everyone should know dharm isn't new.

Guru Nanak spread dharm, so did the udasis, to so many places. The Khalsa Nihang fauj defended the people against adharam.

Also to add, the Udasis did most of the hard work as sikhs for spreading dharam and bringing people into sikh panth from far reaching regions around Hindustan and beyond. This makes sense, as the are the wandering sadhus of the sikh panth.

 

[Harry Haller]

Unfortunately this did not happen. There was no choice in the matter, please read further.
To summarise the Lahore Singh Sabha movement : to sum up it was about sikhs of one framework kicking out sikhs of another framework from the gurdwaras of punjab and Akal Takht. Fortunately the movement didn't work outside of punjab.

One framework is against culture and traditions and prefers a "pure thinking" following religion and the God of Abraham and of the protestant Christians, whilst the other supports ancient culture and traditions, and was successful in attracting so many hindus and even muslims to the path of dharam.

Also the nihangs and their bana became outlawed under British Raaj, being seen in bana got you shot. So like I said, there was no choice in which framework to follow, it was either follow one framework or die following the other!

Sorry Veerji, I should have clarified, I mean in the present climate. We all differ, we all have different frameworks, and those frameworks, more often than not, reflect the sort of person we are too. I follow a nil interaction with Creator form of Sikhi, if I want to speak to the big man, I do so through interaction with Creation, or self debate, period. Some chant, some pray, some have rituals, some are beautiful people but have a few vices, some have no vices but are disgusting people, so , yes, I think we do all have our own framework which works for us, and this framework is reflective of who we are.

Other than of course those that follow a framework for purely social reasons, log kya kehang gai, to those, a visit to Gurudwara is more about keeping up with the Joneses, (or the Janagans), but even these people have a place in Sikhi, unfortunately they tend to be the ones who give Sikhs the stereotypes we have ended up with.

 

[lionprinceuk]

KON janneh KIV marehngeh..says KABIR JI............and here we have mere mortals passing judgements on Bhai randhir Singh on his deathbed (people who have been proven LIARS ..their Last Jathedar LIED to the whole KAUM for 24 years...and DIED LYING...)....how rightly Kanwaljit ji advises..we should all be worried about OUR OWN END...

mere mortals? OK but I what about the judgement of Sant Baba Gurbhachan Singh Bhindrawalay? He is definetly not just a mere mortal!

Also, if you doubt Giani Gurdev Singh then read this:

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_bhindra5.html

"Out of all the ‘Gianis’ hailing from Samparda Bhindra alive today, Giani Gurdev Singh is considered to be the most serious and most learned. This was eluded to by the numerous individuals Nihang Niddar Singh spoke to whilst on his travels in India."

 

[Pritam Singh Nihang]

@SIKS Singh:

How can u tell that Nihang Sikhs r a sect?! they was foundet of Guru Gobind Singh ji himself,
and with his permition!
they a r a very intersting part of the Sikh culture, and they a r more traditional than us modern siks.
they are the warriors that made our enemies fear us on the Battlefield.
a lot of the Sikh Heros are Nihangs (like Baba Deep Singh Ji)
they was on the battles on the frontline, and leave there lives to save and protect our culture! u can find them even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[OSingh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

lionprinceuk quote:


mere mortals? OK but I what about the judgement of Sant Baba Gurbhachan Singh Bhindrawalay? He is definetly not just a mere mortal!

"Also, if you doubt Giani Gurdev Singh then read this:

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/articl..._bhindra5.html

"Out of all the ‘Gianis’ hailing from Samparda Bhindra alive today, Giani Gurdev Singh is considered to be the most serious and most learned. This was eluded to by the numerous individuals Nihang Niddar Singh spoke to whilst on his travels in India."
"

You mention the judgement of Giani Gurbachan Singh ji Khalsa Bhindranwale, here is Giani Gurbachan Singh ji's views written in his book called Gurmukh Parkash quote:

ਦਿੱਹਲੀ ਮੇ ਰਕਾਬ ਗੰਜ ਕੰਧ ਢਾਹੀ ਫਿਰੰਗੀ, ਸਿੰਘ ਸਾਵਧਾਨ ਜਾਗੇ ਸੀਸਾਂ ਤਾਈਂ ਲਾਵਨੇ ।
ਭਾਈ ਰਣਧੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਸੀਸ ਦੇਣ ਆਪ ਗਏ, ਕੰਧ ਉਸਰਾਲੀ ਫੇਰ ਮੋਨੀ ਘਬਰਾਵਨੇ ।
ਸੰਤ ਰਣਧੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਿਵਲਾਈ ਜਿਨਾਂ, ਕੀਰਤਨ ਅਖੰਡ ਕਰੈ ਮਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਵਨੇ ।
ਸਤਰਾਂ ਸਾਲ ਜੇਲ ਕਟੀ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਹ ਬੀਚ ਛਕੈ, ਧੰਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਰੰਗ ਗਾਵਨੇ ।।੭੭ ।।

In the above poem, Giani ji has lovingly called bhai sahib bhai Randhir Singh ji a Sant and Dhan Guru Piare and mentioned how bhai sahib stayed in jail for 16 years when he opposed the British rulers knocking down the wall of Gurdwara Sahib Rakab Ganj.

This is in Giani Gurbachan Singh ji's own words. Giani ji's judgement of bhai sahib was that he was a sant who did akhand (non-stop) kirtan. This is written proof from the Jathedar ji himself. I will trust Baba Gurbachan Singh ji's own words.

I urge for the final time please refrain from doing ninda of a Gursikh spent gave 16 years of their life in jail for the panth. Satguru Mehar Karan!

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[lionprinceuk]

I urge for the final time please refrain from doing ninda of a Gursikh spent gave 16 years of their life in jail for the panth. Satguru Mehar Karan!

Hey not at all, I will not do nindya myself. I was just posting some stuff I read on the internet, not my judgement at all.

But I refuse to follow Bhai Randhir Singh as Guru or need to. I will follow Guru Granth Sahib, I do NOT need to read anything by Bhai Randhir Singh, or by Sant Jarnail Singh, and refuse to quote their words, because I place Guru Gobind Singh and Adh Guru Granth Sahib above anything they say, so please understand this!

Thanks, but also please nobody treat Gurus fauj, the nihangs, as "just" another sect, and please do not doubt puraatan maryada as just another maryada.

 

[lionprinceuk]

@SIKS Singh:

How can u tell that Nihang Sikhs r a sect?! they was foundet of Guru Gobind Singh ji himself,
and with his permition!
they a r a very intersting part of the Sikh culture, and they a r more traditional than us modern siks.
they are the warriors that made our enemies fear us on the Battlefield.
a lot of the Sikh Heros are Nihangs (like Baba Deep Singh Ji)
they was on the battles on the frontline, and leave there lives to save and protect our culture! u can find them even in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

Exactly, why is Siks Singh making a thread about changing sikhi, and then doesn't recognise sikhs changing Khalsa form the original Nihangs?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zA4_dxhTylI#! WHY THE SGGS MENTIONS KESH..DASTAAR ETC..WHY ??