Why Is There Discrimination Against Lower Caste Sikhs?

[Jasdeep118]

Our 10 Guru's told us that the Caste System is evil, and that everyone is equal no matter what caste you came from. Yet Jatt Sikhs or those from the higher caste discriminate those who are from the lower castes such as the Mazhabi, Chamar, and Ad-Dharmi. Even though Sikhism prohibits the Caste System there is still discriminate. I am a Jatt Sikh myself, but I am disgusted towards my own people, and I am sick and tired of those who want to promote caste system. They will destroy Sikhism, and it will ruin the values. In every Gurdwara I go to I see a Caste name beside it. For example, the Gurdwara I currently go to is called Ramgarhia GurSikh Society, and it has the name "Ramgarhia" which is the Tarkhan caste. Hell, these Gurdwara's are the exact same as the Hindu Mandir's they don't even allow the lower case Sikhs to come in. The discriminate has been so bad that the lower caste sikhs made their own religion Ravidassia I support them. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion because we still follow the damn caste system even though our 10 guru's opposed it. I am tired of the discriminate our fellow Sikhs have to face because of their caste. Also, most Sikhs here have a last name which is connected to our caste even though Guru Gobind Singh Ji created Singh and Kaur so every Sikh will be equal. However, we all have different last names that connect to our caste for example, Gill, Dhillion, Bhogal, Bedi, and Shergill. They both have last names related to caste. We also have marriages only inside our caste, my mother even tells me I have to marry a Jatt girl which is rubbish. I just think we are a bunch of Keshdari Hindu's. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion, but I am not insulting Sikhism. I believe there are Sikhs who want to make Sikhism in it's prestige and help prevent caste discrimination, but I believe it won't happen. We must work together in order to eradicate Caste Discrimination in Sikhism. I also understand that when you are Amritshark (Baptised) you have to take Singh and Kaur which is great. Forgive me for my profanity.

 

[Dalvinder Singh Grewal]

Our 10 Guru's told us that the Caste System is evil, and that everyone is equal no matter what caste you came from. Yet Jatt Sikhs or those from the higher caste discriminate those who are from the lower castes such as the Mazhabi, Chamar, and Ad-Dharmi. Even though Sikhism prohibits the Caste System there is still discriminate. I am a Jatt Sikh myself, but I am disgusted towards my own people, and I am sick and tired of those who want to promote caste system. They will destroy Sikhism, and it will ruin the values. In every Gurdwara I go to I see a Caste name beside it. For example, the Gurdwara I currently go to is called Ramgarhia GurSikh Society, and it has the name "Ramgarhia" which is the Tarkhan caste. Hell, these Gurdwara's are the exact same as the Hindu Mandir's they don't even allow the lower case Sikhs to come in. The discriminate has been so bad that the lower caste sikhs made their own religion Ravidassia I support them. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion because we still follow the damn caste system even though our 10 guru's opposed it. I am tired of the discriminate our fellow Sikhs have to face because of their caste. Also, most Sikhs here have a last name which is connected to our caste even though Guru Gobind Singh Ji created Singh and Kaur so every Sikh will be equal. However, we all have different last names that connect to our caste for example, Gill, Dhillion, Bhogal, Bedi, and Shergill. They both have last names related to caste. We also have marriages only inside our caste, my mother even tells me I have to marry a Jatt girl which is rubbish. I just think we are a bunch of Keshdari Hindu's. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion, but I am not insulting Sikhism. I believe there are Sikhs who want to make Sikhism in it's prestige and help prevent caste discrimination, but I believe it won't happen. We must work together in order to eradicate Caste Discrimination in Sikhism. I also understand that when you are Amritshark (Baptised) you have to take Singh and Kaur which is great. Forgive me for my profanity.

This is a misnomer that Jatt Sikhs ever discriminate other Sikhs. In fact it is other way round. Jatt Sikhs are being discriminated so much that they have been made paupers and forced to do suicides; their wards are forced to leave country because they have no jobs; since almost all jobs go to so called lower castes and these poor Jatt Sikhs do not any. They want to be equated with SCs/STs in allotment of jobs quotas. but there is no one to listen to them. Sikh society is based on equality; it is high time that all people are equated on the principles set by the Gurus.

 

[RD1]

I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion

What religion out there is not a "failed religion?"

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Castes you say? Sikhism has no castes. Most importantly YOU do not have a caste.

Easiest way to circumvent the whole caste thing? Do what Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, and use only Singh as last name and do not use caste name. Change your ID to simply Singh and if anyone asks what caste your background is you simply tell them it's none of their business and that Sikhi doesn't believe in Castes. Have your children registered only as Kaur or Singh. Be the change you want to see!!

 

[Jasdeep118]

This is a misnomer that Jatt Sikhs ever discriminate other Sikhs. In fact it is other way round. Jatt Sikhs are being discriminated so much that they have been made paupers and forced to do suicides; their wards are forced to leave country because they have no jobs; since almost all jobs go to so called lower castes and these poor Jatt Sikhs do not any. They want to be equated with SCs/STs in allotment of jobs quotas. but there is no one to listen to them. Sikh society is based on equality; it is high time that all people are equated on the principles set by the Gurus.

Same with the Mazhabi and Chamar sikhs they have been discriminated so bad that they even made their own religion, Ravidassia religion - Wikipedia the Ravidassia religion. They used to have the Guru Granth in their temples, but they removed it after the shootings of their priest by extermists. Ramanand Dass - Wikipedia.

 

[Jasdeep118]

Castes you say? Sikhism has no castes. Most importantly YOU do not have a caste.

Easiest way to circumvent the whole caste thing? Do what Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, and use only Singh as last name and do not use caste name. Change your ID to simply Singh and if anyone asks what caste your background is you simply tell them it's none of their business and that Sikhi doesn't believe in Castes. Have your children registered only as Kaur or Singh. Be the change you want to see!!

I totally agree with you, but its kind of hard. There are families that care about caste, and when you get married they want to know your own caste. Even my mother wants me to be married to a Jatt. I am just concerned about how Sikhi has changed, and how we discriminate to our own fellow Sikhs because they are different. It is sad how lower caste Sikhs joined the Sikh religion so they can be equal be discriminated by their fellows.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

There is no such term as "lower caste Sikhs". And they are not different. ALL humans carry the divine light equally. To deny that is to deny Waheguru.
There are only Sikhs and none are better than others. How should I feel being a convert for example? Should I consider myself to be an untouchable since Indont have a 'caste'? How should my Mother in Law look at me as? My husbands family welcomed me with open arms as they just wanted my husband to be happy. And they (Amritdhari) accepted me because I am genuinely following Sikhi of my own and because I wanted to take Amrit.

If you like a girl you want to marry just have her change her name to Kaur and tell your parents whatever they want to hear. Or take Amrit, and marry an Amritdhari girl who's family will 'never tell' (like my husband's).

I totally agree with you, but its kind of hard. There are families that care about caste, and when you get married they want to know your own caste. Even my mother wants me to be married to a Jatt. I am just concerned about how Sikhi has changed, and how we discriminate to our own fellow Sikhs because they are different. It is sad how lower caste Sikhs joined the Sikh religion so they can be equal be discriminated by their fellows.

herebis

 

[Original]

. I believe that Sikhism is a failed religion

...wow...that's a strong statement ! what are you basing it on ? surely not the caste system because all forms of social organisations have an intrinsic mechanisms that divides them. In some societies it is called "class" and in others, caste. This is more commonly referred to as social stratification.

Granted, caste based discrimination exists, but it's insufficient to deem it a religious failure simply because some of it is dysfunctional.

Essentially, religions are choreographers of spiritual moments. Intrinsically they're functional, how can objective analysis be had to deem Sikhism a failure ? What criteria, formula or indeed a yardstick did you employ to arrive at such a conclusion ?

Much obliged !

 

[Kully]

Even my mother wants me to be married to a Jatt.

Jasdeep, elders have been brought up with this caste nonsense so please don't be too hard on your mother. It is very hard to change the mentality of the elders.

and how we discriminate to our own fellow Sikhs because they are different.

You, it is apparent have chosen not to discriminate, and that is excellent news. You will pass on those same values to your children and slowly but surely there will be a change.

 

[Jasdeep118]

...wow...that's a strong statement ! what are you basing it on ? surely not the caste system because all forms of social organisations have an intrinsic mechanisms that divides them. In some societies it is called "class" and in others, caste. This is more commonly referred to as social stratification.

Granted, caste based discrimination exists, but it's insufficient to deem it a religious failure simply because some of it is dysfunctional.

Essentially, religions are choreographers of spiritual moments. Intrinsically they're functional, how can objective analysis be had to deem Sikhism a failure ? What criteria, formula or indeed a yardstick did you employ to arrive at such a conclusion ?

Much obliged !

I didn't mean to insult Sikhism, I guess I want a little too far with my rant. Please forgive me for insulting you and our faith. I know for sure that not every Sikh has a caste name, and I know there are many that only have Singh or Kaur, and that they don't follow the caste system. As you see, I am 14 years old and in my classroom there is a girl, and a bunch of other girls that like to make Chamar based jokes such as Bunder Di Chamara and such. I get angry since they are Sikhs themselves, yet they mock and discriminate against lower Sikhs, and sometimes I see that they call darker skin sikhs "Chamars", and such. That is why I want to bring this topic to this forum. Then I remembered that this girl got into an argument saying that she was part of the Dhillion Clan and that she was superior than anyone else. I am saying that most Sikh Youth have ego's, but not ALL Sikhs. JaatPaat is a dangerous, and we must eradicate it.

 

[Jasdeep118]

I am just saying that JaatPaat is a disease that is affecting Sikhism. Now we have Gurdwara's that are based on with caste. Such as Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Jattan Gurdwara and such. The Mazhabi and the Dalit's have their own gurdwara's and cremation grounds because they are considered to be lower. This type of discriminate has happened abroad too. Hell, the Gurdwara I go to is called Ramgaria GurSikh Society. Even the Gurdwara Committee or Councils are judged by faith, and even our marriages are arranged with caste too. If you marry with someone who has a different caste you are either going to be found dead in a ditch or be disowned by your family. My intentions were not to insult our beautiful Sikh faith, but to help spread awareness about JaatPaat. I just want us to follow the proper teachings of the Gurdwara, and consider our brethren as equals, and to be judged on by caste. Here is one more thing, in my city there is two Gurdwara's. One is called Gurdwara Singh Sabha, and the other is called Ramgharia GurSikh Society. The reason why it was called Ramgharia Gurdwara because at the time of its founding there was clashes between Jatt and Tarkhan Sikhs because the Jatts didn't want to allow the Tarkhan's in the committee. So, the Jatt's made their own Gurdwara because of this conflict. I just want to tell this story because I want to show this as an example of JaatPaat.

 

[Original]

....at 14 you're studying sociology, not quite the age if you ask me ! This is the time when puberty is probably rife and the transition amazing. Gaze it good and develop naturally beautiful without abstract thinking. Too young to be talking about social divisions.

 

[Jasdeep118]

....at 14 you're studying sociology, not quite the age if you ask me ! This is the time when puberty is probably rife and the transition amazing. Gaze it good and develop naturally beautiful without abstract thinking. Too young to be talking about social divisions.

Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.

 

[Original]

Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.

...well, there is nothing wrong with "looking" at disciplines for educational purposes, but there is I think, a prerequisite for debating, discussing the same and that is, knowledge. Have you the knowledge of the origin of the caste system in India ? If not, then perhaps it might add value to your learnings if you were to learn of the origins of the caste system in India. This will put you in a good stead to debate of its rightness n wrongness, don't you think ? I mean, I studied the caste system as an elective when I was an undergraduate studying Law. This was to help me address the international community of its horrific connotations and legislate effective measures to protect the disadvantaged from discrimination.

Good bye and good luck !

 

[RD1]

....at 14 you're studying sociology, not quite the age if you ask me ! This is the time when puberty is probably rife and the transition amazing. Gaze it good and develop naturally beautiful without abstract thinking. Too young to be talking about social divisions.

Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.

The fact that you're 14 and are contemplating and reflecting on such topics is actually quite impressive!

 

[RD1]

There is discrimination and classism is various cultures and societies. Sikh teachings are certainly against this. But that will not prevent people from acting otherwise - either because they do not understand/are not actually aware of Sikh teachings, or they don't care. The best that we can do is firstly not be like that ourselves, and secondly stand against any form of discrimination.

It is shameful that gurdwaras have been divided by castes. There is an incredible amount of ignorance regarding Sikh teachings. At least we are all here on SPN to continue to learn, and hopefully better ourselves.

Is Sikhism a failed religion? The teachings themselves will always be pure and true. Its human interpretation and behaviour which distort that truth.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I pray for the day we will see Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wish for Sikhi come true... elimination of ALL forms of social class and status. Not just caste but gender discrimination also which is rife in especially the youth these days. (Just search online and you won't have to go far before you see Singh's saying Kaurs were ever meant to have Amrit, never meant to have leadership roles in Sikhi, should not be able to have equal status with Singh's with regards to seva as Panj Pyaras, even suggestions that wives are subordinate to husbands and that the wife follows in lavaans to show this subordinate place - and yes even brahminical idea of women and sootak has made its way in there too keeping women from seva of SGGSJ in certain times). Why do I bring these up in a caste thread? Because they are intimately related. In caste system women were lower than even the lowest caste males, regardless of their caste. A woman was told her only hope was to serve men for this life (and likely another 6) before hoping to be born as even a low caste male.

Social divisions and statuses are a bane of human race and all ethnicities and cultures have not been able to get rid of it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saw differently that ALL humans were equal and carried the same divine light equally. It's us who can't see past statuses. But you can't take your status with you when you die. Like the story of the King who dreamt he was a popper and had lost his kingdom. What he doesn't realize is it was never his to begin with. I always say be the change you want to see so speak openly about caste and how it goes against Gurbani and what our Gurus wanted.

Nobody said speaking up is easy. I have done so and gotten banned on several other forums for speaking for equality for Kaurs. Yes banned... because I spoke against how certain jathas are given higher status and other jathas members are called every horrible thing under the sun. (I spoke directly against how AKJ was called Pakhand Kirtan Jatha, without moderators saying anything yet a much more benign comment about another group was moderated and deleted simply because of who that jatha was). This is just as bad as casteism I think. Jatha-ism should we call it??? Why can't we just consider every Sikh as equal??
Banned because I spoke openly about Kaurs having equality in Sikhi, and spoke against the horrible things being said about Kaur's place in Sikhi.

If you truly are against caste divisions in Sikhi then as the current youth YOU have an opportunity to stand up for what is right. And recruit others to the cause. Start a petition and submit to Akal takht to stop this caste divisions in Sikhi as all Gurdwaras are open to everyone that even includes non Sikhs! How can they discriminate supposed caste when Our Gurus denied caste all together!? Change won't happen over night and with one person. But it won't happen at all if not for one person initiating that change!

 

[Harry]

Well, I mean we all have different hobbies and interests. Mine is just looking at history, and religion.

and you crack right on, the more people that question and outline, the better, your age is irrelevant, it is about maturity and life experience,

 

[Sikhilove]

The fact that you're 14 and are contemplating and reflecting on such topics is actually quite impressive!

Jasdeep 118, You sound abit like me when i was 14. Age doesn't matter, wisdom can be seen at any age, and you showed it in your first post.

This issue is due to Punjabi Brown culture, it has nothing to do with Truth (Sat).

All you can do is teach, don't get angry about it, accept that people can be ignorant and teach them.

Whether they listen or not is up to them. We are here to live and teach (serve), not force people to change. Punjabis can be racist.

My mum used to tell me that if I didn't marry a Jatt, she would disown me.

Years later, now she tells me that caste doesn't matter, because I taught her that racism is wrong and she listened

 

[Sikhilove]

I pray for the day we will see Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wish for Sikhi come true... elimination of ALL forms of social class and status. Not just caste but gender discrimination also which is rife in especially the youth these days. (Just search online and you won't have to go far before you see Singh's saying Kaurs were ever meant to have Amrit, never meant to have leadership roles in Sikhi, should not be able to have equal status with Singh's with regards to seva as Panj Pyaras, even suggestions that wives are subordinate to husbands and that the wife follows in lavaans to show this subordinate place - and yes even brahminical idea of women and sootak has made its way in there too keeping women from seva of SGGSJ in certain times). Why do I bring these up in a caste thread? Because they are intimately related. In caste system women were lower than even the lowest caste males, regardless of their caste. A woman was told her only hope was to serve men for this life (and likely another 6) before hoping to be born as even a low caste male.

Social divisions and statuses are a bane of human race and all ethnicities and cultures have not been able to get rid of it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saw differently that ALL humans were equal and carried the same divine light equally. It's us who can't see past statuses. But you can't take your status with you when you die. Like the story of the King who dreamt he was a popper and had lost his kingdom. What he doesn't realize is it was never his to begin with. I always say be the change you want to see so speak openly about caste and how it goes against Gurbani and what our Gurus wanted.

Nobody said speaking up is easy. I have done so and gotten banned on several other forums for speaking for equality for Kaurs. Yes banned... because I spoke against how certain jathas are given higher status and other jathas members are called every horrible thing under the sun. (I spoke directly against how AKJ was called Pakhand Kirtan Jatha, without moderators saying anything yet a much more benign comment about another group was moderated and deleted simply because of who that jatha was). This is just as bad as casteism I think. Jatha-ism should we call it??? Why can't we just consider every Sikh as equal??
Banned because I spoke openly about Kaurs having equality in Sikhi, and spoke against the horrible things being said about Kaur's place in Sikhi.

If you truly are against caste divisions in Sikhi then as the current youth YOU have an opportunity to stand up for what is right. And recruit others to the cause. Start a petition and submit to Akal takht to stop this caste divisions in Sikhi as all Gurdwaras are open to everyone that even includes non Sikhs! How can they discriminate supposed caste when Our Gurus denied caste all together!? Change won't happen over night and with one person. But it won't happen at all if not for one person initiating that change!

I'm not sure if youve noticed, but the heads of basically all religious institutions Akal Takht included have become corrupted.

Satguru Ji speaks of times like these in Dasam Granth Ji. Your typical Panj Pyaare are very likely no saints, i wouldnt epitomize or trust many people or organisations right now.