Why Sadh Sangat? Why Not Go It Alone?
- Thread starter spnadmin
- Start date
- Replies 64
- Reads 18K
- Status
- Aug 28, 2010
- 1,514
- 1,116
- 73
gurbanicd Ji,
Divine Greetings,
Most appropriate and excellent meassage on the concept of SAADH SANGATi
With best wishes
Prakash.s.Bagga
Divine Greetings,
Most appropriate and excellent meassage on the concept of SAADH SANGATi
With best wishes
Prakash.s.Bagga
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
SPNadmin ji, I apologise for any confusion.
Let me make clear I am not advocating abandoning the sangat people engage with. eg when they meet in Gurdwaras, or in a gurbani vichaar session, or when joining in, in a gurdwara's seva projects. or living in a community. There are very important benefits to be gained from these. A major benefit is social. There are also opportunities to improve civil behaviour and these are felt at both individual and community level. There are also opportunities to improve spiritual understanding/wisdom (giaan).
I was particularly emphasising the spiritual aspect of a saadhsanghat as the original question(s) did ask whether the journey can be completed by a lone soul, ie without accompanying humans. I am sure it can be, but of course it does not have to be without others.
You also asked whether we must be unattached from the company of others. I did not adddress this, as I assumed everybody would see and/or know they do not have to become hermits. I doubt if anybody who knows anything at all about Sikhi would try to do this in today's society.
People are indeed temporal. They live in this world, and most would like to take an active role in society. It is good for them that they do so, (as it reduces liklihood of mental conditions like depression etc and also makes life interesting) and it is good for society that they do so, as they can assist others. In this manner , "sarbat da bhalla" comes into play, and IMHO the "sarbat" refers to the whole of society. One would not be using terms like this if one was going to live in an isolated cave .
I hope I have clarified this. Seeking and maintaining good company/sangat is to be recommended and encouraged.
As I stated at the beginning of my first post on this thread, each person needs to know exactly what sangat means to them, and what they feel Guru ji is referring to when the term "sangat", appears in shabds, and moreover when "saadhsangat" and "satsangat" appear in shabds.
They need to know this before thinking about how useful their own perception of such terms are on their journey. If they don't know it will be like having a driver hoping to get from LA to a specific address in New York, but with no mapbook, and no guide or previous experience.
It is possible some may set out, but will take a wrong turning at the first junction. Some may realise they are not getting anywhere. They maintain hope and faith, but will still put great effort in reading dark poorly lit signs on side of the road, (Gurbani they have not studied before, or do not follow) or ask people on the side who may speak in a foreign language or who in innocent ignorance may also send them in the opposite direction (some gianis/granthis), or may stop at dhabas on the side and see that as fulfillment (langar halls/kitchens), or get fed up with potholes and bumps (gurdwara/panth politics and power plays). Some may get very attached to these side-issues, and forget they even had a destination (union with the Lord and liberation from the cycle of birth and death).
Studying Gurbani, reflecting upon it, and gaining an intuitive understanding of terms like Satguru, and Saadsangat, Satgur prasad, are fundamental, if one is hoping to reach the goal through one's efforts rather than rely solely on God's grace. A little reading up, and personal reflection, provides this (exactly in the same way vichaar in a dharmsala/gurdwara/cyber sanghat can). One can understand the goal, one can understand the map, and the Lord has provided a fully fuelled up vehicle, in the guise of a human form.
On top of this, there are overlayers which all affect just how useful the concept of sangat is in this aim of reaching this destination. There is the grace of the Lord, the hukam of the Lord, the concept of an inner shrine, the concept of satguru as one who takes one to the 10th gate, the all-pervasiveness and ever-present close proximity of the Lord. These all interplay with the concept of sangat, and reduce just how critical it is to engage in a physical sangat. When one can put faith in the Lord being with one all the time, then He is surely the supreme sangat to interact with and listen to? One just needs to put trust in Him, ( in effect surrender to Him), and therefore trust Him implicitly. He will lead one to the destination if He wishes to, and one should accept His decisions. Having done this, this leaves one completely liberated from the bonds to and duties towards any religion, and opens the doors to engage in fruitful seva to the physical sangat, and living as a householder. I believe this is what SGGS ji is suggesting.
Sat Sri Akal
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
Roopsidhu ji, I agree with each of your first two points but please explain what you understand the saadhsangat is, in this line you have quoted. To me, it would make a difference as to whether point 3 is agreeable or not.
NB: It would also help all members who cannot read Gurmukhi easily (like me - I can only read in Gurmukhi very slowly), if a tranliteration and/or translation is provided, perhaps also with a page number) winkingmunda
Sat Sri Akal
SSA,
Sanmukh ji the translation and page numbers are given below
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਭਾਉ ਨਹੀ ਊਪਜੈ ਭਾਵ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਤੇਰੀ ॥
साधसंगति बिना भाउ नही ऊपजै भाव बिनु भगति नही होइ तेरी ॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ binā bẖā▫o nahī ūpjai bẖāv bin bẖagaṯ nahī ho▫e ṯerī.
Without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, love for the Lord does not well up; without this love, Your devotional worship cannot be performed.
SGGS ji ang number 694
And I understand the sadhsangat as the company of the holy or the company of the devotees.
Roopsidhu
Sanmukh ji the translation and page numbers are given below
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਬਿਨਾ ਭਾਉ ਨਹੀ ਊਪਜੈ ਭਾਵ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਹੋਇ ਤੇਰੀ ॥
साधसंगति बिना भाउ नही ऊपजै भाव बिनु भगति नही होइ तेरी ॥
Sāḏẖsangaṯ binā bẖā▫o nahī ūpjai bẖāv bin bẖagaṯ nahī ho▫e ṯerī.
Without the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, love for the Lord does not well up; without this love, Your devotional worship cannot be performed.
SGGS ji ang number 694
And I understand the sadhsangat as the company of the holy or the company of the devotees.
Roopsidhu
Ek Onkaar Sat Naam
Thank you Ishna ji, and SPNadmin ji, for this link.
The page is well worth reading .
Ishna, the article does go into the difference between internal and external satsang. As to a diiference between satsang and saadh sangat, I think you will have to decide for yourself. I would say the first is external sangat, and the latter is internal sangat, but the article goes over it much better than I can express.
Sat Sri Akal
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
Sorry Findingmyway/ Jasleen Bhen ji, I missed your post, which included a couple of questions addressed to me:
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by sunmukh
I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding, if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose.
On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:
However I am not so convinced Guru ji is suggesting it is essential to be in a sangat. If we bear in mind the creator Lord is all pervading, and is hence in each and every soul, and mukhti is attained by His grace, then it cannot be essential to physically sit with a particular congregation.
It is most unlikely people of one faith would entertain discussion of ways to receive the Lords grace with people of other faith as fruitful, yet the Lord will still liberate those who please Him, and nobody has any say in the matter. IMHO this completely negates the need to do Gurbani vichaar (contemplate and discuss Gurbani) with people of the same faith, simply because they are on the same wavelength.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
All the Guru's frequently held audience with wise people from other faiths and they included bani by the bhagats. This shows me that it is not only Sikhs that are the sangat but anyone who holds God dear and is endeavouring to work for the good of all, anyone doing sarbat da bhalla. You do not have to agree with all in others faith but that does not mean you cannot both be spiritual in your own paths. The Guru's never said Sikhi was the only path but it is the most logical and dogma free path.
The point I was trying to make was that God's grace is over-riding.
Gurus and Bhagats held such audiences and discussions, but the same is not generally true of their disciples today. I agree with your comments though, and would say that it is also worthwhile discussing with people who do not believe in God at all or do not believe in sarbat da bhalla. It firms up my resolve to not have the same attitude. Errors, even in others, help to avoid complacency and arrogance.
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The many many references to sangat refer to people. I will post some examples soon as I have a lot on my plate at the moment. This is because the Guru's know what human nature is like. Without others around you to keep you focussed and thinking, you are more likely to wander or go astray. Also Guru Ji advocated a grisht jeevan and was against Sadhus hiding away from the world. Only by conquering temptation can we become Gurmukhs-not by running away from it. Even in Japji, Guru Ji emphasises this point with Chupai chup na howai, je lahi riha liv thar (forgive my transliteration, I'm not very good without Gurmukhi). This is not in support of introspection alone as it does not achieve anything. Introspection on many levels is also selfish as you are not helping the world around you.
I don't think you need to make the quotes about sangat. I know they exist. The issue, for me, is whether they all refer to people, or mostly to spiritual bodies. You have nothing to be forgiven for, and I have no power to forgive anyway. I completely disagree with you with regards to introspection. It is a result of introspection that self-realisation can occur, and one can recognise one's primal origins, one's mool.
(Page: 329, Line: 10, Raag: Gaurhee, Author: Saint Kabir)
and
(there is more, and I can provide quotes if required; Naam Simran is also inextricably related to this, when Naam is associated with the self whilst doing simran- the aim being to form that union, rather than to see the Lord as separate)
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
But of you only go about your daily business you will not always stand up for others and do true sarbat da bhalla as why should you care as long as your spirituality is on track?
The comment about going about one's daily business was intended to mean continuing with one's daily tasks instead of withdrawing from society. This includes any and all compassionate endeavours. Thinking of the One, should lead to destruction of ego and removal of other 4 evils. This should automatically lead to a compassionate outlook. One cannot rule out the need to put in effort to break the cycle of reincarnation. Even charity giving and assisting others has to be ranked below efforts to please the Lord.
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji.IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and intent. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Absolutely! So that is why sangat is important to help you understand Guru Ji's advice and how to implement it in your life.
Agreed. Engaging with a cyber sangat is of great value.In over 40 years of attendance at Gurdwaras I have not learned anywhere near as much as I have come to understand about SGGS ji and the sikh concepts embedded therein in the last two years. Up till then I had learned largely only of practices, and how to abide by them, and of sikh history.
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Life is also transient so should we disregard life and end it now? Everything takes effort as does finding sangat so we should always endeavour to find new sangat wherever we go.
Life is a God given opportunity, to meet the Lord and end the cycle of birth and death, to reach a permanent state. It would be foolish to end it, but even ending it is in the hands of the Lord (Akhan Jor - Japji Sahib).
The spiritual satsangat in the Lord's darbar is the one I seek, and I hope to continue putting in effort and seeking it until I find it, with the Lord's grace.
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind). </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
This is a small part of the Sikh way of life. We must endeavour to live the Gurmukh life and always do everything we can to help the downtrodden. Meditating and praying alone achieve nothing as many shabads say.
Whoa ! This is a bit of statement.
a) Living the Gurmukh life - please give me the name of one living Gurmukh, that I may follow that Gurmukhs lifestyle. Gurmukhs are one in millions, and may be our non-sikh neighbour but will not necessarily know it. We do indeed endeavour to become Gurmukhs, but that is not so easy. I can only hope to get to that stage, but until then, will follow the best guide, this being SGGS ji.
and
b) Meditating and praying is not useful ?? It only becomes pointless if one still does not receive the Lord's grace, but this is out of one's hands anyway. SGGS ji resounds with advice to meditate, to remember the Lord 24-7, and to sing the Lord's kirtan.
Reading Sukhmani Sahib may help you to believe this.
and together:
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer, karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual - the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
But unless you take the steps onto the path of enlightenment, how can you possibly expect to become enlightened? Hukam is not a passive thing but we have to be proactive. Finding sangat is one of the proactive measures we can take. Sangat is not just a Gurdwara congregation. Just like the internet has made reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji possible, it has made connecting to sangat around the world possible.
Fully agreed. I am trying hard, but should try even harder.
Sat Sri Akal
Sorry Findingmyway/ Jasleen Bhen ji, I missed your post, which included a couple of questions addressed to me:
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by sunmukh
I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding, if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose.
On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:
However I am not so convinced Guru ji is suggesting it is essential to be in a sangat. If we bear in mind the creator Lord is all pervading, and is hence in each and every soul, and mukhti is attained by His grace, then it cannot be essential to physically sit with a particular congregation.
It is most unlikely people of one faith would entertain discussion of ways to receive the Lords grace with people of other faith as fruitful, yet the Lord will still liberate those who please Him, and nobody has any say in the matter. IMHO this completely negates the need to do Gurbani vichaar (contemplate and discuss Gurbani) with people of the same faith, simply because they are on the same wavelength.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
All the Guru's frequently held audience with wise people from other faiths and they included bani by the bhagats. This shows me that it is not only Sikhs that are the sangat but anyone who holds God dear and is endeavouring to work for the good of all, anyone doing sarbat da bhalla. You do not have to agree with all in others faith but that does not mean you cannot both be spiritual in your own paths. The Guru's never said Sikhi was the only path but it is the most logical and dogma free path.
The point I was trying to make was that God's grace is over-riding.
(Page: 2, Line: 15, Jap, Author: Guru Nanak Dev)
Gurus and Bhagats held such audiences and discussions, but the same is not generally true of their disciples today. I agree with your comments though, and would say that it is also worthwhile discussing with people who do not believe in God at all or do not believe in sarbat da bhalla. It firms up my resolve to not have the same attitude. Errors, even in others, help to avoid complacency and arrogance.
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The many many references to sangat refer to people. I will post some examples soon as I have a lot on my plate at the moment. This is because the Guru's know what human nature is like. Without others around you to keep you focussed and thinking, you are more likely to wander or go astray. Also Guru Ji advocated a grisht jeevan and was against Sadhus hiding away from the world. Only by conquering temptation can we become Gurmukhs-not by running away from it. Even in Japji, Guru Ji emphasises this point with Chupai chup na howai, je lahi riha liv thar (forgive my transliteration, I'm not very good without Gurmukhi). This is not in support of introspection alone as it does not achieve anything. Introspection on many levels is also selfish as you are not helping the world around you.
I don't think you need to make the quotes about sangat. I know they exist. The issue, for me, is whether they all refer to people, or mostly to spiritual bodies. You have nothing to be forgiven for, and I have no power to forgive anyway. I completely disagree with you with regards to introspection. It is a result of introspection that self-realisation can occur, and one can recognise one's primal origins, one's mool.
(Page: 329, Line: 10, Raag: Gaurhee, Author: Saint Kabir)
and
(Page: 1095, Line: 10, Raag: Maaroo, Author: Guru Arjan Dev)
(there is more, and I can provide quotes if required; Naam Simran is also inextricably related to this, when Naam is associated with the self whilst doing simran- the aim being to form that union, rather than to see the Lord as separate)
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
But of you only go about your daily business you will not always stand up for others and do true sarbat da bhalla as why should you care as long as your spirituality is on track?
The comment about going about one's daily business was intended to mean continuing with one's daily tasks instead of withdrawing from society. This includes any and all compassionate endeavours. Thinking of the One, should lead to destruction of ego and removal of other 4 evils. This should automatically lead to a compassionate outlook. One cannot rule out the need to put in effort to break the cycle of reincarnation. Even charity giving and assisting others has to be ranked below efforts to please the Lord.
(Page: 12, Line: 8, Raag: Aasaa, Author: Guru Arjan Dev)
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji.IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and intent. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Absolutely! So that is why sangat is important to help you understand Guru Ji's advice and how to implement it in your life.
Agreed. Engaging with a cyber sangat is of great value.In over 40 years of attendance at Gurdwaras I have not learned anywhere near as much as I have come to understand about SGGS ji and the sikh concepts embedded therein in the last two years. Up till then I had learned largely only of practices, and how to abide by them, and of sikh history.
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Life is also transient so should we disregard life and end it now? Everything takes effort as does finding sangat so we should always endeavour to find new sangat wherever we go.
Life is a God given opportunity, to meet the Lord and end the cycle of birth and death, to reach a permanent state. It would be foolish to end it, but even ending it is in the hands of the Lord (Akhan Jor - Japji Sahib).
The spiritual satsangat in the Lord's darbar is the one I seek, and I hope to continue putting in effort and seeking it until I find it, with the Lord's grace.
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind). </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
This is a small part of the Sikh way of life. We must endeavour to live the Gurmukh life and always do everything we can to help the downtrodden. Meditating and praying alone achieve nothing as many shabads say.
Whoa ! This is a bit of statement.
a) Living the Gurmukh life - please give me the name of one living Gurmukh, that I may follow that Gurmukhs lifestyle. Gurmukhs are one in millions, and may be our non-sikh neighbour but will not necessarily know it. We do indeed endeavour to become Gurmukhs, but that is not so easy. I can only hope to get to that stage, but until then, will follow the best guide, this being SGGS ji.
and
(Page: 40, Line: 4, Raag: Sriraag, Author: Guru Ram Das)
b) Meditating and praying is not useful ?? It only becomes pointless if one still does not receive the Lord's grace, but this is out of one's hands anyway. SGGS ji resounds with advice to meditate, to remember the Lord 24-7, and to sing the Lord's kirtan.
Reading Sukhmani Sahib may help you to believe this.
and together:
(Page: 62, Line: 15, Raag: Sriraag, Author: Guru Nanak Dev)
Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer, karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual - the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
But unless you take the steps onto the path of enlightenment, how can you possibly expect to become enlightened? Hukam is not a passive thing but we have to be proactive. Finding sangat is one of the proactive measures we can take. Sangat is not just a Gurdwara congregation. Just like the internet has made reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji possible, it has made connecting to sangat around the world possible.
Fully agreed. I am trying hard, but should try even harder.
Sat Sri Akal
Sunmukh Ji,
I think we've misunderstood each other in some respects!! :blushhh:
I read from your emphasis on introspection that you were advocating enough. As shown in the article posted by Ishna Ji, both internal and external sangat's are vital. My reference to Gurmukh's was not to say I knw any-who am I to say who is and who isn't-only Waheguru knows. However, my endeavour is to become a Gurmukh and I know how much external sangat helps me in this regard as explained in the other related thread created my spnadmin ji. If we're on the same page that's great! I have also talked about the transience of sangat in the other thread. Transient sangat does not necessarily invalidate the value of that sangat was the point I was trying to make. Life is very precious and so is sangat as humans are very much influenced by those around them.
I am not saying meditating and praying is not useful-not at all. However, I believe mediation/simran/singing kirtan is only one part of naam japna. As unless we implement Guru Ji's advice into our lives and mold ourselves around this all the prayers in the world will acheive nothing. However, this has been discussed on other threads and I do not wish to deviate from the topic-I just wanted to clear up misunderstandings.
Thank you for your response. Hope that is easier to understand where I am coming from!
Best wishes,
Jasleen
I think we've misunderstood each other in some respects!! :blushhh:
I read from your emphasis on introspection that you were advocating enough. As shown in the article posted by Ishna Ji, both internal and external sangat's are vital. My reference to Gurmukh's was not to say I knw any-who am I to say who is and who isn't-only Waheguru knows. However, my endeavour is to become a Gurmukh and I know how much external sangat helps me in this regard as explained in the other related thread created my spnadmin ji. If we're on the same page that's great! I have also talked about the transience of sangat in the other thread. Transient sangat does not necessarily invalidate the value of that sangat was the point I was trying to make. Life is very precious and so is sangat as humans are very much influenced by those around them.
I am not saying meditating and praying is not useful-not at all. However, I believe mediation/simran/singing kirtan is only one part of naam japna. As unless we implement Guru Ji's advice into our lives and mold ourselves around this all the prayers in the world will acheive nothing. However, this has been discussed on other threads and I do not wish to deviate from the topic-I just wanted to clear up misunderstandings.
Thank you for your response. Hope that is easier to understand where I am coming from!
Best wishes,
Jasleen
- Aug 28, 2010
- 1,514
- 1,116
- 73
SAADHSANGATi
In Gurbaani SAADHSANGATi clearly has two references
1....First reference is for the GUROOJOTi and this relates to the spritualty part for journey alone and also when persons are together in presence of GUROO JOTi at present SGGS Ji.
2...Second reference is mentionted for getting together with SAADHJANAA.This aspect of SANGATi is well defined in ASTAPADi 07 of SUKHMANI pp271/272 in SGGS Ji.
In Gurbaani who can be reffered as SAADH JAN is well defined .Now a days it is rather difficult to find out such persons.
So under present situation getting together in presence of SGGS Ji constitutes SAADHSANGATi irrespectine of the deifinition of SAADH JANA.
This is such a great quality of the presence of GUROO JOTi i.e SGGS ji.
Thus there is significance of both types os SANGATi mentioned as above.
Prakash.S.Bagga
In Gurbaani SAADHSANGATi clearly has two references
1....First reference is for the GUROOJOTi and this relates to the spritualty part for journey alone and also when persons are together in presence of GUROO JOTi at present SGGS Ji.
2...Second reference is mentionted for getting together with SAADHJANAA.This aspect of SANGATi is well defined in ASTAPADi 07 of SUKHMANI pp271/272 in SGGS Ji.
In Gurbaani who can be reffered as SAADH JAN is well defined .Now a days it is rather difficult to find out such persons.
So under present situation getting together in presence of SGGS Ji constitutes SAADHSANGATi irrespectine of the deifinition of SAADH JANA.
This is such a great quality of the presence of GUROO JOTi i.e SGGS ji.
Thus there is significance of both types os SANGATi mentioned as above.
Prakash.S.Bagga
pritpal_singh
SPNer
- May 22, 2007
- 27
- 12
WJKK WJKF,
Pardon myself a neech, but whatever mercy Waheguru has had on me, I would like a quick word. Sadh Sangat means company of sadhu. Sadhu means one who has achieved the ultimate goal of life. Who bigger a sadhu the Waheguru himself the greatest of all sadhus. Now since he or his naam resides in every being, means he is always with us i.e we are always in the company of sadh sangat. This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness.
So plz keep remembering him through his shabad and thus be forever in sadh sangat.
Pardon myself a neech, but whatever mercy Waheguru has had on me, I would like a quick word. Sadh Sangat means company of sadhu. Sadhu means one who has achieved the ultimate goal of life. Who bigger a sadhu the Waheguru himself the greatest of all sadhus. Now since he or his naam resides in every being, means he is always with us i.e we are always in the company of sadh sangat. This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness.
So plz keep remembering him through his shabad and thus be forever in sadh sangat.
dear ji
your quote "So plz keep remembering him through his shabad and thus be forever in sadh sangat."
This keep remembering continuously is not possible ( in general) without SADH SANGAT.the company of blessed dynamic souls.
in other words it is not so easy to keep continuous remembering waheguru.
great are those who do so.
bhulan chukan di khima
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
Gurbanicd ji, it is not at all easy, but I believe it is the aim. As Pritpal Singh ji states, we are always in this highest form of saadhsangat, with Waheguru, but don't realise it, until we receive His grace.
If we work to remove levels of ego added on over time since birth, then we can hope to realise the true saadhsangat. Until then we are only engaged with rearranging and modifying our perceptions, also based on perceptions, which are based on perceptions and so on and on, back in time. The Shabd is the Word, and from the Shabd ensues all creation. When we realise the Shabd all new perceptions can form, which can displace previous stumbling blocks. Until then we are only playing with old perceptions, stuck in glue of ego. First step is to be prepared and/or willing to abandon any or all perceptions, with any or all associated practices, if they are non-productive or non-satisfying. One has to be willing to become carefree, in order to become carefree. If that willingness is not there to allow that to happen, then ego's grip is too strong, to realise the Shabd, and one will continue to live in fear of what will happen if something is not continued. The fear of death will remain.
eg
P33:
Sat Sri Akal
Gurbanicd ji, it is not at all easy, but I believe it is the aim. As Pritpal Singh ji states, we are always in this highest form of saadhsangat, with Waheguru, but don't realise it, until we receive His grace.
If we work to remove levels of ego added on over time since birth, then we can hope to realise the true saadhsangat. Until then we are only engaged with rearranging and modifying our perceptions, also based on perceptions, which are based on perceptions and so on and on, back in time. The Shabd is the Word, and from the Shabd ensues all creation. When we realise the Shabd all new perceptions can form, which can displace previous stumbling blocks. Until then we are only playing with old perceptions, stuck in glue of ego. First step is to be prepared and/or willing to abandon any or all perceptions, with any or all associated practices, if they are non-productive or non-satisfying. One has to be willing to become carefree, in order to become carefree. If that willingness is not there to allow that to happen, then ego's grip is too strong, to realise the Shabd, and one will continue to live in fear of what will happen if something is not continued. The fear of death will remain.
eg
P33:
Sat Sri Akal
Let us first of all know who is saadh that can warrant us His grace. If we go through various versus of gurbani we will find it is the supreme virtues('satgur' - sach da gian) only that can warrant us His grace. That is why in the same sabd it is mentioned how rare of those who can conquer their ego and cultivate supreme virtues. SGGS.437.19.
Now let us check another sabd of Guru tegh Bahadur, 'paanch tat ko tan racheio jaano chatur sujan' SGGS 1427- Over here panch is not five but supreme virtues and those who are able to cultivate supreme virtues like humility, devotion, compassion, sincerety in our hearts (and create 'durlabh maanukh deh') are known as intelligent. So these supreme virtues are our company that gurbani is asking us to develop within us. Unless, 'jeh teh upji teh mili sachi preet smahu' the soul is blended again from where it orignited the mission is not accomplished. It is absorbed through the love of supreme virues. As guru sahib tells us, raam ratan tab paaeye jao pahily tajeh sareer The jewel of supreme viretues is obtained, until mortal gives up attachment originited from ego which is polluted with vikars. sggs.1366.3.
Now let see what gurbani tells us regarding those companion we normally associate ourselves, 'sangh sakha sabh taj gaey koeu na nibheeyo saath, kahu nanak eh beepat meh tek eik raghunaath' - my associate and companion (kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ankar) whom I have given so much importance and given shelter throughout my life have not warranted me any grace but deserted me at difficult time. this is the tragedy that I have faith and trust only on God. sggs 1429.8.
best regards
sahni mohinder
pritpal_singh
SPNer
- May 22, 2007
- 27
- 12
Dear Gurbanicd,
Why don’t we realize that all souls (including the blessed dynamic souls) have emanated from the supreme soul, and it is on that paramatma that we have to concentrate.
You say it is not possible to remember Waheguru always. But Guruji says that nothing is possible with your efforts. You are nothing, your efforts are nothing. First this has to be engraved in our mind that we are nothing and we are not capable of any effort. It is only his meher, his blessings that if he even manage to think about him, remember him.
Even if today we are discussing these spiritual aspects, why don't we realise that we are lucky. How many are so lucky?
In this age where self-ego is at it’s peak, true saints are few and far between-very difficult to find. So maybe keeping this in mind Guruji made the Shabad as Guru so that we shall not waste our time in search of a Sadhu, and find the Shabad, the Sadhu, the Almighty residing within ourselves (so near and yet so far).
This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness.
Pardon again.
Why don’t we realize that all souls (including the blessed dynamic souls) have emanated from the supreme soul, and it is on that paramatma that we have to concentrate.
You say it is not possible to remember Waheguru always. But Guruji says that nothing is possible with your efforts. You are nothing, your efforts are nothing. First this has to be engraved in our mind that we are nothing and we are not capable of any effort. It is only his meher, his blessings that if he even manage to think about him, remember him.
Even if today we are discussing these spiritual aspects, why don't we realise that we are lucky. How many are so lucky?
In this age where self-ego is at it’s peak, true saints are few and far between-very difficult to find. So maybe keeping this in mind Guruji made the Shabad as Guru so that we shall not waste our time in search of a Sadhu, and find the Shabad, the Sadhu, the Almighty residing within ourselves (so near and yet so far).
This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness.
Pardon again.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dear Gurbanicd,
Why don’t we realize that all souls (including the blessed dynamic souls) have emanated from the supreme soul, and it is on that paramatma that we have to concentrate.fficeffice" /><?"urn:<img src=" />
You say it is not possible to remember Waheguru always. But Guruji says that nothing is possible with your efforts. You are nothing, your efforts are nothing. First this has to be engraved in our mind that we are nothing and we are not capable of any effort. It is only his meher, his blessings that if he even manage to think about him, remember him.
Even if today we are discussing these spiritual aspects, why don't we realise that we are lucky. How many are so lucky?
In this age where self-ego is at it’s peak, true saints are few and far between-very difficult to find. So maybe keeping this in mind Guruji made the Shabad as Guru so that we shall not waste our time in search of a Sadhu, and find the Shabad, the Sadhu, the Almighty residing within ourselves (so near and yet so far).
This true knowledge is blessed only on whom he shows mercy and kindness.
Pardon again.
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam
I am honoured to be able to read your wise words. Thank you.
Sat Sri Akal
Last edited by a moderator:
DEAR PRITPAL JI
"So maybe keeping this in mind Guruji made the Shabad as Guru so that we shall not waste our time in search of a Sadhu, and find the Shabad, the Sadhu, the Almighty residing within ourselves (so near and yet so far).
We don't have to waste out time in search of a sadhu BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE REQUEST.
4. Ang 738 Line 19 Raag Suhi: Guru Arjan Dev
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਖਸ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
kahu naanak prabh bakhas kareejai ||
कहु नानक प्रभ बखस करीजै ॥
Says Nanak, please forgive me, God."
10. Ang 739 Line 1 Raag Suhi: Guru Arjan Dev
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੋਹਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥੪॥
kar kirapaa mohi saadhhasang dheejai ||4||
करि किरपा मोहि साधसंगु दीजै ॥४॥
Have Mercy upon me, and bless me with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||4||
to best of knowledge it is almost impossible to reach higher stages without help of the blessed souls (MURSHID)
ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਸਉ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਉ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ॥: Gurmukh so kar dosatee satgur saou laai chit: Make friends with the Gurmukhs, and focus your consciousness on the Satguru (sggs 1421).
BHULAN CHUKAN DI KHIMA
"So maybe keeping this in mind Guruji made the Shabad as Guru so that we shall not waste our time in search of a Sadhu, and find the Shabad, the Sadhu, the Almighty residing within ourselves (so near and yet so far).
We don't have to waste out time in search of a sadhu BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE REQUEST.
4. Ang 738 Line 19 Raag Suhi: Guru Arjan Dev
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਖਸ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥
kahu naanak prabh bakhas kareejai ||
कहु नानक प्रभ बखस करीजै ॥
Says Nanak, please forgive me, God."
10. Ang 739 Line 1 Raag Suhi: Guru Arjan Dev
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੋਹਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥੪॥
kar kirapaa mohi saadhhasang dheejai ||4||
करि किरपा मोहि साधसंगु दीजै ॥४॥
Have Mercy upon me, and bless me with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. ||4||
to best of knowledge it is almost impossible to reach higher stages without help of the blessed souls (MURSHID)
ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਸਉ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਉ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ॥: Gurmukh so kar dosatee satgur saou laai chit: Make friends with the Gurmukhs, and focus your consciousness on the Satguru (sggs 1421).
BHULAN CHUKAN DI KHIMA
Moderator's interruption at this point. I am not reading pritpal_singh ji's words as endorsement to "go it alone" in reply to the thread title. Are you not saying something pritpal ji about a different understanding of sangat?
Could the choice to go on our journey in the company of others versus going it alone something of an oversimplification?
Could the choice to go on our journey in the company of others versus going it alone something of an oversimplification?
pritpal_singh
SPNer
- May 22, 2007
- 27
- 12
Dear Gurbanicd,
You are absolutely right that WE HAVE TO MAKE REQUEST. This request in our religion in the ARDASS- As guruji says ARDASS is on of the best ways to communicate with Waheguru, and we should always use this tool in all aspects of our life. The humble ardass uttered shall be heard-rest assured. Ardass also is another way of remembering paramatma.
Also you talk about blessed souls (murshid) without whose help one can't reach higher stages. I just wanted to say that nos soul can help you without the hukam of the supreme soul. So why try to catch the ear in a roundabout way when we can hold it straight by requesting (as you say) the help from the supreme paramatma himself. As guruji says : 'jab eh jaane mein kick karta tab lab garabh joon mein phirta' i.e till we believe we are doing something we shall not be free of the birth-death cycle. Similarly Guruji advises us to break free of DUALITY i.e. believing that someone else other than Waheguru can help us. Everything is under his hukam. We all are his slaves. We can't even take a breath without his meher, then how is it possible that someone can help somebody. It is always he who is helping all of us.
Pardon
You are absolutely right that WE HAVE TO MAKE REQUEST. This request in our religion in the ARDASS- As guruji says ARDASS is on of the best ways to communicate with Waheguru, and we should always use this tool in all aspects of our life. The humble ardass uttered shall be heard-rest assured. Ardass also is another way of remembering paramatma.
Also you talk about blessed souls (murshid) without whose help one can't reach higher stages. I just wanted to say that nos soul can help you without the hukam of the supreme soul. So why try to catch the ear in a roundabout way when we can hold it straight by requesting (as you say) the help from the supreme paramatma himself. As guruji says : 'jab eh jaane mein kick karta tab lab garabh joon mein phirta' i.e till we believe we are doing something we shall not be free of the birth-death cycle. Similarly Guruji advises us to break free of DUALITY i.e. believing that someone else other than Waheguru can help us. Everything is under his hukam. We all are his slaves. We can't even take a breath without his meher, then how is it possible that someone can help somebody. It is always he who is helping all of us.
Pardon
- May 9, 2006
- 3,261
- 5,193
(I'm not so good at keeping up with intense discussion so please pardon me if my post is out of sync with the thread.)
I found this shabad today while looking for something totally unrelated. I like it when that happens.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=734&L=4&id=31515
On it's own, with my base understanding, I interpret this as saying Waheguru is ones Sat Sangat. The most pertinent lines:
ਜਿਥੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਤੁ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
Wherever the Lord is worshipped in adoration, there the Lord becomes one's friend and helper.
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਲਇਆ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥
By Guru's Grace, the Lord comes to dwell in the mind; He cannot be obtained in any other way. ||1||
ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥
So gather in the wealth of the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny,
ਜਿ ਹਲਤਿ ਪਲਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਸਖਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
so that in this world and the next, the Lord shall be your friend and companion. ||1||Pause||
ਸਤਸੰਗਤੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਖਟੀਐ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
In the company of the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, you shall earn the wealth of the Lord; this wealth of the Lord is not obtained anywhere else, by any other means, at all.
Either Sat Sangat is being in congregation with Waheguru, or unless we are in the presence of True Saints, we're all doomed!
(therefore unable to "go it alone")
Am I understanding correctly that some members have suggested Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the True Saint in the room which transforms a sangat into Sat Sangat?
Ishna
I found this shabad today while looking for something totally unrelated. I like it when that happens.
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=734&L=4&id=31515
On it's own, with my base understanding, I interpret this as saying Waheguru is ones Sat Sangat. The most pertinent lines:
ਜਿਥੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਤੁ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
Wherever the Lord is worshipped in adoration, there the Lord becomes one's friend and helper.
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਲਇਆ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥
By Guru's Grace, the Lord comes to dwell in the mind; He cannot be obtained in any other way. ||1||
ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥
So gather in the wealth of the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny,
ਜਿ ਹਲਤਿ ਪਲਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਸਖਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
so that in this world and the next, the Lord shall be your friend and companion. ||1||Pause||
ਸਤਸੰਗਤੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਖਟੀਐ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
In the company of the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, you shall earn the wealth of the Lord; this wealth of the Lord is not obtained anywhere else, by any other means, at all.
Either Sat Sangat is being in congregation with Waheguru, or unless we are in the presence of True Saints, we're all doomed!
(therefore unable to "go it alone")Am I understanding correctly that some members have suggested Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the True Saint in the room which transforms a sangat into Sat Sangat?
Ishna
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status
📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:
