Why This Forum Thesedays Is Full Of "saakats" (skeptics And Atheists) ?

[Seeker2013]

I am not bashing ! I am ok with atheists.
it was Harry haller who started rebuking me by saying my idea of god as a "giver god" was wrong !
He was the one who told me "wait a minute ! I thought u got this wrong but all the things you hear from SGGS are all in your own head ! its not really there. god's not interested in helping your affairs"

 

[Harry Haller]

Atheist means someone who doesn't believe in existence of god

actually, are you sure your not an atheist? most of what you describe god as, is against what Ek Ong Kar actually stands for.

 

[Ishna]

But your thread title seems to suggest you know who the atheists are, which is why I'm asking you if I'm one of them.

 

[Harry Haller]

am I one of them too?

 

[Harry Haller]

was hitler an atheist? by the way this is the house that looks like hitler!

 

[Ishna]

Personally, I think Guru Sahib is most interested in bringing our awareness to Naam and nothing more.

Gurbani practically even cautions us against asking for anything except Naam. Like here on panna 258:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
Salok.
Shalok:

ਮਾਇਆ ਡੋਲੈ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਪਟਿਓ ਤਿਹ ਸੰਗ ॥
Mā▫i▫ā dolai baho biḏẖī man lapti▫o ṯih sang.
Maya clings to the mind, and causes it to waver in so many ways.

ਮਾਗਨ ਤੇ ਜਿਹ ਤੁਮ ਰਖਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਹਿ ਰੰਗ ॥੧॥
Māgan ṯe jih ṯum rakẖahu so Nānak nāmėh rang. ||1||
When You, O Lord, restrain someone from asking for wealth, then, O Nanak, he comes to love the Name. ||1||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:

ਮਮਾ ਮਾਗਨਹਾਰ ਇਆਨਾ ॥
Mamā māganhār i▫ānā.
MAMMA: The beggar is so ignorant -

ਦੇਨਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁਜਾਨਾ ॥
Ḏenhār ḏe rahi▫o sujānā.
the Great Giver continues to give. He is All-knowing.

ਜੋ ਦੀਨੋ ਸੋ ਏਕਹਿ ਬਾਰ ॥
Jo ḏīno so ekėh bār.
Whatever He gives, He gives once and for all.

ਮਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਕਹ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
Man mūrakẖ kah karahi pukār.
O foolish mind, why do you complain, and cry out so loud?

ਜਉ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਤਉ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਬੀਆ ॥
Ja▫o māgėh ṯa▫o māgėh bī▫ā.
Whenever you ask for something, you ask for worldly things;

ਜਾ ਤੇ ਕੁਸਲ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਥੀਆ ॥
Jā ṯe kusal na kāhū thī▫ā.
no one has obtained happiness from these.

ਮਾਗਨਿ ਮਾਗ ਤ ਏਕਹਿ ਮਾਗ ॥
Māgan māg ṯa ekėh māg.
If you must ask for a gift, then ask for the One Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਪਰਹਿ ਪਰਾਗ ॥੪੧॥
Nānak jā ṯe parėh parāg. ||41||
O Nanak, by Him, you shall be saved. ||41||
​

I hope this gives you some idea of where I put 'my faith'.

I am not interested in miracles, or a god-character who intervenes in my life on my behalf, or grants my wishes, or protects me if I pray before a long trip, or blesses me with children and old age. I am interested in honing my attention, my mind, my heart and my purpose to One and One Only Ik Onkar. Carefully absorbing the spiritual wisdom-amrit from Sri Guru Granth Sahib and living in the world wide awake and per the Guru's guidance within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. With every effort, I hope that one day that light-bulb of Gur Prasaad will switch on in my mind and I will be able to see nothing else except That Light.

I quietly hope this happens to me and everyone else, too.

 

[Seeker2013]

Personally, I think Guru Sahib is most interested in bringing our awareness to Naam and nothing more.

Gurbani practically even cautions us against asking for anything except Naam. Like here on panna 258:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
Salok.
Shalok:

ਮਾਇਆ ਡੋਲੈ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧੀ ਮਨੁ ਲਪਟਿਓ ਤਿਹ ਸੰਗ ॥
Mā▫i▫ā dolai baho biḏẖī man lapti▫o ṯih sang.
Maya clings to the mind, and causes it to waver in so many ways.

ਮਾਗਨ ਤੇ ਜਿਹ ਤੁਮ ਰਖਹੁ ਸੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਹਿ ਰੰਗ ॥੧॥
Māgan ṯe jih ṯum rakẖahu so Nānak nāmėh rang. ||1||
When You, O Lord, restrain someone from asking for wealth, then, O Nanak, he comes to love the Name. ||1||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:

ਮਮਾ ਮਾਗਨਹਾਰ ਇਆਨਾ ॥
Mamā māganhār i▫ānā.
MAMMA: The beggar is so ignorant -

ਦੇਨਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਰਹਿਓ ਸੁਜਾਨਾ ॥
Ḏenhār ḏe rahi▫o sujānā.
the Great Giver continues to give. He is All-knowing.

ਜੋ ਦੀਨੋ ਸੋ ਏਕਹਿ ਬਾਰ ॥
Jo ḏīno so ekėh bār.
Whatever He gives, He gives once and for all.

ਮਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਕਹ ਕਰਹਿ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
Man mūrakẖ kah karahi pukār.
O foolish mind, why do you complain, and cry out so loud?

ਜਉ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਤਉ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਬੀਆ ॥
Ja▫o māgėh ṯa▫o māgėh bī▫ā.
Whenever you ask for something, you ask for worldly things;

ਜਾ ਤੇ ਕੁਸਲ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਥੀਆ ॥
Jā ṯe kusal na kāhū thī▫ā.
no one has obtained happiness from these.

ਮਾਗਨਿ ਮਾਗ ਤ ਏਕਹਿ ਮਾਗ ॥
Māgan māg ṯa ekėh māg.
If you must ask for a gift, then ask for the One Lord.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਪਰਹਿ ਪਰਾਗ ॥੪੧॥
Nānak jā ṯe parėh parāg. ||41||
O Nanak, by Him, you shall be saved. ||41||
​

I hope this gives you some idea of where I put 'my faith'.

I am not interested in miracles, or a god-character who intervenes in my life on my behalf, or grants my wishes, or protects me if I pray before a long trip, or blesses me with children and old age. I am interested in honing my attention, my mind, my heart and my purpose to One and One Only Ik Onkar. Carefully absorbing the spiritual wisdom-amrit from Sri Guru Granth Sahib and living in the world wide awake and per the Guru's guidance within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. With every effort, I hope that one day that light-bulb of Gur Prasaad will switch on in my mind and I will be able to see nothing else except That Light.

I quietly hope this happens to me and everyone else, too.

I am very aware gurbani speaks of only asking for god . But I am no saint . I am quite materialistic .
I now have a job, then want a better one, then want god to intervene in my life for taking me to canada for a gay marriage with a handsome man or converting me to straight , ....
I know he's my no servant but I am a beggar asking him for things and having faith that he gives !

I am no perfect. I am flawed , sinner , a patit ! but all I do know is he's patit paavan (purifier of saints) , all I do know is despite all of my imperfections, he loves me !
All I do know is nobody returns empty handed from his door.

I am not interested in miracles, or a god-character who intervenes in my life on my behalf, or grants my wishes, or protects me if I pray before a long trip, or blesses me with children and old age. I am interested in honing my attention, my mind, my heart and my purpose to One and One Only Ik Onkar. Carefully absorbing the spiritual wisdom-amrit from Sri Guru Granth Sahib and living in the world wide awake and per the Guru's guidance within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. With every effort, I hope that one day that light-bulb of Gur Prasaad will switch on in my mind and I will be able to see nothing else except That Light.

very nice ideal ! if you really do think like this, then you're doing good and definitely not an atheist

 

[Harry Haller]

there you go sis, seeker says your not an atheist! you have your validation!

 

[Seeker2013]

there you go sis, seeker says your not an atheist! you have your validation!

you crack me up ! lemme grab me some pop corn

 

[Ishna]

I am very aware gurbani speaks of only asking for god . But I am no saint . I am quite materialistic .
I now have a job, then want a better one, then want god to intervene in my life for taking me to canada for a gay marriage with a handsome man or converting me to straight , ....
I know he's my no servant but I am a beggar asking him for things and having faith that he gives !

I am no perfect. I am flawed , sinner , a patit ! but all I do know is he's patit paavan (purifier of saints) , all I do know is despite all of my imperfections, he loves me !
All I do know is nobody returns empty handed from his door.

very nice ideal ! if you really do think like this, then you're doing good and definitely not an atheist

At this point in my life, I think anything we think we get 'from Him' is actually a trick of Maya.

Naam is the only thing that can really, truly satisfy you, forever from now through to the moment of your death. Why would the Ik Onkar Creator of the measureless creation give you a transitory job to give you transitory happiness in a transitory life, a job that will be taken away from you at some point in the future and probably cause you pain, when He could give you limitless, immortal Naam instead?

Why would He do that? O.O Why?

 

[Seeker2013]

At this point in my life, I think anything we think we get 'from Him' is actually a trick of Maya.

Naam is the only thing that can really, truly satisfy you, forever from now through to the moment of your death. Why would the Ik Onkar Creator of the measureless creation give you a transitory job to give you transitory happiness in a transitory life, a job that will be taken away from you at some point in the future and probably cause you pain, when He could give you limitless, immortal Naam instead?

Why would He do that? O.O Why?

the same reason he gives us food . why give us food if we're going to get hungry again ! don't be confused , everything has its scope . The one travelling with you on the bus is also a partner but of a shorter journey. Your husband / wife is also a partner but of a longer journey .

a job that will be taken away from you at some point in the future and probably cause you pain

what makes u think I will lose the job ? -_-

 

[JourneyOflife]

This forum can be applauded for not approving posts Is being publicized. I think most large Sikh forums either screen or have a habit of censoring opposing views so it can be applauded in that respect, although I have sometimes come across the claim that it is the only Sikh forum to do this, which isn't exactly true. There is at least one other forum which is more active than SPN and also encourages lively debate.

With that being said, while there may not be explicit censorship, in my experience of mostly lurking here, I have noticed an undercurrent of what I can only describe as 'mockery', where any thread or post that deals with or encourages spiritual practices like meditation or of 'reaching out to God' is not just disagreed with so as to start a debate, but even implicitly ridiculed as being 'childish'. That, I believe, does nothing to further anyone's understanding but just creates a hostile environment where the ridiculed feel unwelcome, just like I have noticed the public "appreciation" system also creates an us vs. them mentality and aids in creating the division.

Many people may not like what I have to say here, but the honest truth is that over the last few months, I have seen far more mockery and ridicule of different forms of spiritual expression than I have actual productive discussion, to the point where a member even wanted to leave this forum due to being attacked for his practice of meditation.

Sorry if this offended anyone, but I do genuinely appreciate the ethos of SPN and think all participants (including myself) should work to live up to it. And when we aren't- and right now I don't think we are - then we should be honest about our concerns and try to improve the environment on SPN together.

 

[Ishna]

the same reason he gives us food . why give us food if we're going to get hungry again ! don't be confused , everything has its scope . The one travelling with you on the bus is also a partner but of a shorter journey. Your husband / wife is also a partner but of a longer journey .



what makes u think I will lose the job ? -_-

Even if you stay there forever you will die and therefore lose it

You will either be made redundant, be fired, leave because you don't like it anymore, or leave for a better job. You will most likely not be there forever.

He doesn't give us food. The food is there and we take it, distribute it, greedily hog it or share it around. Did the Creator create the food that humans eat on purpose, or did we evolve to eat the food that is in our environment? My money is on the latter.

Uhoh, maybe I am an atheist after all? LOL (I'm not, but c'mon, that was pretty funny, right? )

 

[Harry Haller]

This forum can be applauded for not approving posts Is being publicized. I think most large Sikh forums either screen or have a habit of censoring opposing views so it can be applauded in that respect, although I have sometimes come across the claim that it is the only Sikh forum to do this, which isn't exactly true. There is at least one other forum which is more active than SPN and also encourages lively debate.

With that being said, while there may not be explicit censorship, in my experience of mostly lurking here, I have noticed an undercurrent of what I can only describe as 'mockery', where any thread or post that deals with or encourages spiritual practices like meditation or of 'reaching out to God' is not just disagreed with so as to start a debate, but even implicitly ridiculed as being 'childish'. That, I believe, does nothing to further anyone's understanding but just creates a hostile environment where the ridiculed feel unwelcome, just like I have noticed the public "appreciation" system also creates an us vs. them mentality and aids in creating the division.

Many people may not like what I have to say here, but the honest truth is that over the last few months, I have seen far more mockery and ridicule of different forms of spiritual expression than I have actual productive discussion, to the point where a member even wanted to leave this forum due to being attacked for his practice of meditation.

Sorry if this offended anyone, but I do genuinely appreciate the ethos of SPN and think all participants (including myself) should work to live up to it. And when we aren't- and right now I don't think we are - then we should be honest about our concerns and try to improve the environment on SPN together.

I have nothing against reaching out to God or meditation, in fact, I recently started a thread that gave my view on both, which is, if it feels good, then do it, whether its worshipping statues, feeding deities, whatever, it that's how you worship god, good for you, enjoy.

my problem is when people are unable to answer questions, the current situation in this thread, Is Sikhism about listing all your earthly desires and then praying till they have all been given? what do you think?

 

[Seeker2013]

Even if you stay there forever you will die and therefore lose it

You will either be made redundant, be fired, leave because you don't like it anymore, or leave for a better job. You will most likely not be there forever.

TRUE ! but Guru Gobind Singh ji never told us to foresake worldly materials . He said foresake the "moh" (attachment) to them . Something which even I am not able to do !
Lotus is significant in world religions (including sikhi) because lotus stays and grows in mud yet untouched by its dirt . Same way a god realized person grows and stays in this maya world , yet untouched by its attachment. easier said than done !

He doesn't give us food. The food is there and we take it, distribute it, greedily hog it or share it around. Did the Creator create the food that humans eat on purpose, or did we evolve to eat the food that is in our environment? My money is on the latter.

please don't mix science and spirituality . Yes physically we evolve depending on our food as well. But I was referring spiritually to the fact that god is giver of all we have .

"Tu daata daatar , tera ditta khavana" (you're the great giver of gifts, we eat what you give us)

Uhoh, maybe I am an atheist after all? LOL (I'm not, but c'mon, that was pretty funny, right? )

As harry haller said, I am no certificate-issuing authority LOL . Thats between you and god only !
I personally don't think ur an atheist

 

[Ishna]

TRUE ! but Guru Gobind Singh ji never told us to foresake worldly materials . He said foresake the "moh" (attachment) to them . Something which even I am not able to do !

Lotus is significant in world religions (including sikhi) because lotus stays and grows in mud yet untouched by its dirt . Same way a god realized person grows and stays in this maya world , yet untouched by its attachment. easier said than done !

You've got the right idea here Keep trying. Never stop. I am well far from being anywhere near Gurmukh, but if we keep learning and trying and yearning, Gur Prsaad we'll get there.

The difference in asking for a job and asking for Naam is that the job will come when it comes. You put in the effort to the best of your ability and cultivate contentment while you wait for something to come up, and accept the hukam that the world works the way it works and when a job comes, be happy; but meanwhile, through it all, focus lovingly on Naam and beg for that Kirpaa to get the drop of rain that will satisfy you forever. The world is the world, it does what it does. Naam is the reality behind it all, and it is in Naam that is all contentment, protection, acceptance, detachment, peace, etc.

please don't mix science and spirituality.

Hey! That's my line!

Yes physically we evolve depending on our food as well. But I was referring spiritually to the fact that god is giver of all we have .

"Tu daata daatar , tera ditta khavana" (you're the great giver of gifts, we eat what you give us)

Fair point. Just as a sidenote, I tend to view the Sikh experience as a more passive spiritual experience. That is, rather than It literally arranging things so that food appears on your plate, it is rather the individual who's perspective changes so that everything you eat, every breath you take, every breeze that kisses your cheek is indeed a gift from It. Not because It is bending reality for you, but rather you are seeing reality for what it is.

Does this make sense to you?

As harry haller said, I am no certificate-issuing authority LOL . Thats between you and god only !
I personally don't think ur an atheist

I have only been asking to try to point out how awkward it might be for you on one hand calling most of the forum users atheists and skeptics, but then being less than willing to actually name names.

 

[Original]

Pyara Satsangi ' O Ji [associates of truth]

For such a noble an association [Sikh, SPN] and yet so little an understanding ? Come on people, you're connected with the "shabd" and the shabd is sat. It is not in what capacity your connected but the fact that you are voluntarily or involuntarily surfing, researching, leisure-zoning, visiting, or indeed participating, renders you an associate of Guru di Bani. And, Bani is God [...waho waho Bani Nirankar hai - Ang 515].

That said, here's the metaphysics of it all: Aristotle in his "Physicae Auscultationes" candidly remarks, "so what hinders the different parts of the body from having this merely accidental relation in nature ? Take the teeth for example, grow by necessity, the front ones sharp adapted for cutting and the back grinders for masticating; since they were not made for the sake of this, but it was the result of accident. And, in like manner as to other parts in which there appears to exist an adaptation to an end [teleology]. Where so ever, all things together [part of a whole] happened like as if they were made for the sake of something, these were preserved, having been appropriately constituted by an internal spontaneity [Karta Purakh- creative energy] and whatsoever things were not thus constituted, perished and still perish".

We are all missionaries and not adversaries, missionaries of the "word" and the word is good, beautiful and just - God of Nanak, Ikonkar. So whether AP gets you to be an atheist or an antagonist is of little value but the fact that it gets you on this forum is most seriously a consideration of want and wear.

As for you IG - you've such a serene disposition, not knowing yet aspiring, O' how beautiful a state for the maker to mould you to better extract from you seva, of form n substance alone AP knows, that in itself is a state of being and being at the "right place at the right time" is what Gur Ghar calls Gur Prasad, meaning SPN. Hold on in there, you'll be the next Pythia [jovial mood].

The beauty in all this is - we're together and Guru [word] G is with us - ferrying us home [teeth above, Aristotle] for some us are grinders, while others are winders and blinders - perfect bunch for a gate gourmet treat.

Enjoy the day !

 

[Seeker2013]

That said, here's the metaphysics of it all: Aristotle in his "Physicae Auscultationes" candidly remarks, "so what hinders the different parts of the body from having this merely accidental relation in nature ? Take the teeth for example, grow by necessity, the front ones sharp adapted for cutting and the back grinders for masticating; since they were not made for the sake of this, but it was the result of accident. And, in like manner as to other parts in which there appears to exist an adaptation to an end [teleology]. Where so ever, all things together [part of a whole] happened like as if they were made for the sake of something,

Aristotle never heard "natural selection" ?
Teeth in front is sharp and back is for chewing . its no coincidence . Its the result of millions of years of evolution . There have been other varieties of configuration of teeth too but since it was disadvantageous otherwise, those beings with such teeth configurations didn't survive long enough to breed and pass the genes of their teeth configs,

got now ??

 

[Seeker2013]

Isn't it all about the control? Even a lack of an agenda seems like an agenda! How many of your thoughts (messages) and for that matter anyone else' posts have been suppressed or edited during all these years at SPN?

Kintu Parantu ... isn't this the basis of evolution of Sikhi? Guru Nanak Sahib did kintu parantu every-time He saw illogical practices. So, wasn't Guru Nanak Sahib a Skeptic?

We have to learn to respect unity in diversity. We come here to think, discuss, share, learn and evolve and not Judge!

Gurfateh!
Bhull Chuk Maaf

Actually I respect the kind of freedom we have here in SPN . Go to sikhsangat.com and tell me if you don't get banned in 24 hours if you're not one of those who bat for their extremist views !
I have had my own experience with that forum . SPN is a warm place , hoping it always remain so

 

[Original]

Aristotle never heard "natural selection" ?
Teeth in front is sharp and back is for chewing . its no coincidence . Its the result of millions of years of evolution . There have been other varieties of configuration of teeth too but since it was disadvantageous otherwise, those beings with such teeth configurations didn't survive long enough to breed and pass the genes of their teeth configs,

got now ??

Warrior, don't just look at the finger pointing at the moon for you will miss all the heavenly glory [enter the dragon]. Aristotle was the forerunner to what Darwinians were to theorise back in 1859, besides, the analogy used was to show the teleological workings of what is ontological [Ikonkar]. In other words, being at SPN is no coincidence but predetermined long list of events. All the riders n runners at SPN, no matter what their status, are present and assembled because Waheguru deem it so. Like the Bee hovers around the flower to extract nectar so do we congregate around SPN to sweeten our soul with the melodious sound of Gurbani.

Take care !