USA WSC-AR Condemns Board Of Trustees Of Gurdwara Of Rochester

[blingsingh]

Ok Charles, I'll be responding to you again and I'll be straight forward as possible since you are unable to understand. Deletion: Debate issues. Ajay has posted the affidavit again and he even underlined it this time to show you, please do not ignore it again. The affidavit states that sikhs dont have to bring full size kirpans in the gurdwara. Why would any sikh write that if they DONT want to ban kirpans.

2. every time we ask you to post evidence of your claims you say "the court case is still going on". Ajay singh is in the court case too and he's willingly posting all this factual information to us. Theres only one reason that comes to my mind of why you would hide behind the court and that is because your afraid to show us the truth, you give us gossip and history that doesn't even matter. while all we're asking for is factual info and sources.

we are not biased against you since we don't know who you really are, but your just giving us BS and lies.

 

[spnadmin]

When forum members make compare other forum members to Nazi's involved in genocide and mass murderers, or refer to them as scoundrels, insurgents, characterize them as insurgent gangs, or characterize their behavior as a menace to public safety without providing compelling evidence, then TOS guidelines have been violated. Let me put them into plain words.

Debate issues not personalities.
Check your karma.
Do not indulge in character assassinations

If one chooses to debate the truth of comments made on the other side that is fine. Do however refrain from abusive language.

This is an emotional subject without a doubt. And it is one of those topics where one side cannot hope to change the other. What you can do is harm your own reputation and the reputation of everyone associated with you if you are unable to moderate your language.

Infractions and stiffer discipline will follow if this continues.

 

[CharlesKnuckles]

blingsingh ji,

Reading is a skill...I suggest you re-read my last post.

First: Ajay Singh has posted an edited copy of the Affidavit. NOT a full copy. I am not a liar, you just refuse to see the obvious.

Second: I have seen and talked to almost everyone on the GOR Executive Committee while I was on a trip to Rochester from June 25 to July 5. I have seen much of the evidence that was presented to the Supreme Courtfirst hand. I asked a member of the Committee why they will not defend themselves against all of the propoganda attacks from the Insugents and I was told, specifically,that the GOR will not make any statements regarding this matter until the case is officially closed in the New York Supreme Court. The GOR realize dealing with these Insurgents has to be done through the courts and not through public opinion.

Third: There is a major difference between a Ceremonial Sword (which 24"-36" long) vs. a Kirpan (3"-7" long). The GOR asked for a ban of the Ceremonial Sword. Please read my previous post for detail on this because obviously you missed it.

Fourth: Since you feel Ajay Singh is so forth comming, please have him post the court evidence, in unedited form, for all of you to review. Have him include ALL of the videos, photographs and documents. The GOR would not allow me to take any copies of video, photo, or email (see the second item above). Otherwise I would love to show the evidence against these Insurgents.

Deleted abusive language

 

[spnadmin]

CharlesKnucles ji

For the record. Ajay Singh has offered to give SPN copies of all the court evidence. The files sizes and the number of files make uploading all of it time-consuming and laborious. he has therefore asked to send it. This happened around 4 am EST. If we decide it is necessary we will accept the offer.

The fact of his offering the evidence leads me to believe Ajay Singh has no hidden agendas.

 

[Ajay Singh]

Bravo Mr. Charles Knuckles. You are very good with your words. First of all at least I did not change my name on this forum to hide who I am. If your name really is Charles Knuckles and not a Singh then that means you are not even a Sikh. So my first question to you is how come you are getting involved in all this when this has nothing to do with you??? Second, the conversation on this post is about banning Kirpan from the Gurdwara, so it would be useless and pointless for me to upload the entire case file which is well over 500 pages.

Now talking about who and what is banned. You are admitting that "It also lists that people cannot carry ceremonial swords or weapons in the GOR."

So i do not know why you keep on saying that only 3 insurgents are banned when even you are mentioning that all people with ceremonial swords (Amritdharis) are banned???

"Addressing the lies, slander, and hear-say comments of Ajay Singh within his 18 question post on 7/3/2010."
Much of the answers are covered in the radio talk show conversation between the insurgents and the General Secretary's statements. What can be more solid proof then your team member's own statements on a live radio talk show.

The evidence was so damning, that the Judge took it in his owns hands, as a public safety issue, to ban ALL weapons regardless of spiritual significance due to the real threat posed by the banned Insurgent Ring Leaders.


Bravo!!! Your team members affidavits really show that they told the court about the spiritual significance of the Panj Kakkars especially Kirpan!!!!!
To refresh your memory let me point out what spiritual significance they told the court
*Sikhs' can observe the so called Five K's...
*Wearing a "Kanga" under their turbans bearing the image of a small symbolic sword, or wearing a small symboic Kirpan around their necks is a common method among Sikhs of honoring this tradition. (picture of a kinga with an image of a tiny little symbolic Kirpan and a picture of a small 1.5 in symbolic necklace kirpan was submitted to the court)
*Most baptized Sikhs don't wear ceremonial swords for practical reasons.
*The code requirements by baptized Sikhs is to carry a comb under their turbans...etc.

WAY TO CHANGE THE ENTIRE CONCEPT GIVEN BY GURU GOBIND SINGH JEE!!!

"A ban on Kirpans was NEVER asked for by the GOR"
Then what was the need to explain the "spiritual significance" to the court as stated above and in the affidavit????
Dear Sangat Jee, to further prove his statement wrong I will upload the injunction order which they submitted to the court and requesting the Judge to ban all persons with ceremonial swords from entering the Gurdwara. The Judge signed off on their request and said that the motion is granted.

 

[Ajay Singh]

On the final hearing the entire motion was granted.

 

[CharlesKnuckles]

Narayanjot Kaur Ji,

So let me test my understanding:

Just because Ajay Singh OFFERED evidence (which he has not given), you would side with his point of view over the ruling of a New York Supreme Court Judge (who actually HAS and SAW the evidence) and made a decision.

We are in the United States. Which means you have the right to your opinion (as I do). However, that, in my opinion, is exactly why this issue has been twisted out of shape.

 

[spnadmin]

Narayanjot Kaur Ji,

So let me test my understanding:

Just because Ajay Singh OFFERED evidence (which he has not given), you would side with his point of view over the ruling of a New York Supreme Court Judge (who actually HAS and SAW the evidence) and made a decision.

We are in the United States. Which means you have the right to your opinion (as I do). However, that, in my opinion, is exactly why this issue has been twisted out of shape.

CharlesKnucles ji

Let me be clear. Here is what I am siding with.

1. The position paper of the World Sikh Council - American Region

2. The right of amritdhari Sikhs to wear kakkars

3. The importance of proper Gurdwara protocol, to include the presence of panj payaare who are by definition amirtdhari, and who cease to be Khalsa if they do not wear the kakkars.

4. The inherent right-mindedness of the Sikh religion that resolves problems within the panth through dialog in the sangat, not courts of law.

5. The importance of presenting accurate evidence to a judge, if one believes one is forced to court, that is evidence that is based on relevancy. I plan to expand on this point once the conversation dies down and there is a window of time for me to do it. But for now, if it is true that the article about Bikram Singh Lamba was presented to the judge, then it is also true that the judge was misled on that one point.

6. The right of citizens and non-citizens of the US to petition the government for redress of grievances, without fear of recrimination.

I am in the proverbial position of road-kill here because there are some things I have said that the GOR sangat have not liked either. But if I have not been clear enough, ask me another question.

 

[CharlesKnuckles]

Ajay Singh,

My name serves no importance. I have already discussed my membership status, my residential status, my visits to Rochester, and my relationship with most of the people involved in this matter.

What you should know is I was a part of the GOR community, serving langar at the GOR, and performing Seva for the GOR years BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. That means nothing to a person like yourself but I have served far longer for the benefit of the GOR than any of the banned defendants.

I answered your 18 questions to the best of my ability. Since you are being praised for your ability to provide information and your truthfulness...perhaps you wouldn't mind answering a few questions for me:

1) Do you think a convicted felon should be allowed to have Gurdwara membership, a Gurdwara leadership position, or for that matter, entrance into a Gurdwara?

2) How inspirational to a Sangat is a person who can’t inspire his own children enough to prevent them from renouncing Sikhism and converting to Islam?

3) When a Sikh lies about who he is on a court affidavit (ex. Calling himself a medical student when in reality he is not), do you think the Guru would be pleased in that action?

4) A key discipline for Sikhs is not to eat meat or drink alcohol. What do you think the Gurus would have thought of a Sikh that sells meat and alcohol for a living?

Just curious on where you stand on complex issues as these….

 

[Ajay Singh]

Mr. Charles you are making no sense. You have proved that you are a fool and Guru Jee says no point in arguing with the fools. I will not even bother with you anymore. If anyone has any ligitimate questions regarding the decision of the case please let me know.

Gur Fateh
Ajay Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Ajay Singh ji

Thank you for the time you took uploading video, audio and other resources that are very informative.

 

[CharlesKnuckles]

Ajay Singh...You can upload YOUR affidavit for the forum to see...Of course it should be unedited.

 

[truesikh]

blingsingh ji,

Reading is a skill...I suggest you re-read my last post.

First: Ajay Singh has posted an edited copy of the Affidavit. NOT a full copy. I am not a liar, you just refuse to see the obvious.

Second: I have seen and talked to almost everyone on the GOR Executive Committee while I was on a trip to Rochester from June 25 to July 5. I have seen much of the evidence that was presented to the Supreme Courtfirst hand. I asked a member of the Committee why they will not defend themselves against all of the propoganda attacks from the Insugents and I was told, specifically,that the GOR will not make any statements regarding this matter until the case is officially closed in the New York Supreme Court. The GOR realize dealing with these Insurgents has to be done through the courts and not through public opinion.

Third: There is a major difference between a Ceremonial Sword (which 24"-36" long) vs. a Kirpan (3"-7" long). The GOR asked for a ban of the Ceremonial Sword. Please read my previous post for detail on this because obviously you missed it.

Fourth: Since you feel Ajay Singh is so forth comming, please have him post the court evidence, in unedited form, for all of you to review. Have him include ALL of the videos, photographs and documents. The GOR would not allow me to take any copies of video, photo, or email (see the second item above). Otherwise I would love to show the evidence against these Insurgents.

Deleted abusive language

Ok, lets settle the ceremonial swords and the kirpan banning issue, now in the statement given in the affidavit, there is a portion that calls for a ban on the ceremonial swords and how Sikhs don't need to wear them, in that case your argument is totally solid and that kirpans are allowed at the gurdwara, but you made one critical error, you missed the portion where he also talked about kirpan and that's why you don't make sense, why would a board member say to the judge that amritdhari sikhs dont have to wear kirpans and says there's a simple solution to this problem, many AMRITDHARI sikhs do this, wear a small kirpan as a necklace and also gives a picture to the judge. Look I understand the point that you make about how you are afraid of some sikhs wearing long ceremonial swords but when you claim that amritdhari sikhs arn't banned and that we didn't support the kirpan being banned, I have to say that you're wrong.

perhaps you must have skipped over the part about kirpans or something, its a good thing that I'm here to clear up the confusion.

I have uploaded the portion where the board member says kirpan is useless and can be replaced by the necklace and the picture shown to the judge

daas
Truesikh

Updated information can be found regarding this case at the following facebook link, or Search for Sikh Voice Sikh Voice | Facebook

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001258716903&v=wall&ref=ts

 

[spnadmin]

I am going to have to edit these photos because they are very difficult to read. They need to be re=sized. Give me a few minutes.

 

[spnadmin]

Here are the alluded to photographs.

 

[CharlesKnuckles]

To all Posters:

As I have mentioned in previous posts: Attaching only small portions of the court documents, instead of the entire document, does not tell the whole story.

However, I made a phone call or two and was able to get one piece of evidence that was submitted to the New York Supreme Court.

This is a picture of one of the three banned defendants. I have blacked out the name but you can easily identify this person from this Youtube.com post:

YouTube - Gurdwara of Rochester NY Bans All Amritdhari? Sikhs. Bhai Parminder Singh Soch

This is what the GOR meant by swords that needed to be addressed by the court. This person is brandishing this weapon, apparently, on Turban Day at the Gurdwara in April of this year.

According to the General Secretary of the GOR, swords like these were drawn several times in the GOR by the defendants and their cult-like followers. The General Secretary addressed the Sangat and stated that swords are weapons and should not be drawn or played with...especially with children around. However, after the General Secretary made this statement, this particular defendant stood up, drew his sword in the Gurdwara and declared this is how the swords need to be drawn in the Gurdwara.

Several GOR members also told me about an incident where Ajay Singh left an unsheathed sword unattended laying on the floor of the Gurdwara when there were children around. When the General Secretary placed the sword in a safe place, Ajay Singh became enraged and caused yet another scene in the middle of the Gurdwara.

I have been to Gurdwaras across the US, in Europe, and in India. Since I have been repeated accused of knowing nothing about Sikhism, perhaps some of you enlighted people can tell me the following:

1) I would like to to know how official "Turban Day" is to Sikhism.

2) I would like to know where, in the Guru Granth Sahib, it states that careless sword play in a Gurdwara is an acceptable practice.

In addition to this picture, Ajay Singh's Facebook pictures were submitted where he posing with a Kirpan (in an aggressive manner) and another picture where he looks like a deleted. Perhaps Ajay would be kind enough to post THOSE pictures for you review.

As I have stated, all of you are hearing manipulated facts from the defendants and their supporters.

I will continue to talk with my contacts at the GOR to see if there is anything else that I can get my hands on...However, Ajay Singh has EVERYTHING but refuses to show.

 

[spnadmin]

CharlesKnuckes "Ji"

You are not even a party to this case. Yet you continue to indulge in hear-say, statements that are irrelevant without being tied to court documents, statements that have no relevance to this thread, and taunts of other forum members. You are speaking as if you are personally involved, but you are neither a member of the sangat nor a plaintiff nor a defendant in the case. The conversation has been going back to earlier statements and around in circles for 2 days or longer. You have added nothing new except these pictures of a person with a smile holding a sword and a YouTube video, neither of which have a context without details that you refuse to provide. Probably because you cannot provide them.

Avoid using words like "maniac."

This is my last warning. If this continues your remark above and future remarks will be deleted. If the situation continues along these lines, I will consider closing the thread.

My warning also applies to other participants. No one is under any obligation to provide court documents. Let me make that clear. Everyone is under obligation to stay on topic and conform to forum guidelines for discussion.

 

[blingsingh]

this guy looks extremely scary no wonder you had to ban him, he kind've reminds me of this guy, maybe you should also teach him not to pull out his sword too, it's scaring the kids.

 

[CharlesKnuckles]

blingsingh ji,

I almost laughed at the absurdity of your post. However, I think it is a sad reflection on how too many people in the Sikh community place such a high importance on outward appearances over inner character and individual actions.

To compare the banned defendant to the Guru is rather vulgar. However, it is not my place to be the ultimate judge on that.

The WSC-AR, according to the original thread, seem to represent a very small number of Gurdwaras in the United States. As will all religions, there is a spectrum ranging from very progressive all the way to radical fundamentalism. I am not 100% sure where the WSC-AR lies, but it would appear, by the blind support they receive, that they are closer to the fundamental side of the spectrum.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with that. It works for them and is acceptable for the people who chose to follow that path. However, it is does help form the 'factions' that we have seen clash in other Gurdwaras (Canada, Europe, etc...).

Argue the details, or in this case the lack of them, all you want...The GOR was formed by a diverse group of Sikhs decades ago...it worked for them. A small group of people tried to use intimidation to take over the Gurdwara. They failed via elections and became unruley...and in some cases, openly intimidating. The GOR Sangat and Central Committee took actions to prevent the potential of violence and restore the peaceful activities of the GOR.

You don't have to agree...but that is what happened.

 

[truesikh]

Charlie my friend, you’re walking on a very lonely road. I will also state the reasons why:
1) No matter what reason you give, you have banned ALL Amritdhari Sikhs; you have ridiculed the kirpan in the affidavit given by the board member, and brought shame to the Rochester Gurdwara. I would also clarify that there was no legitimate evidence given with the misuse of the neither kirpan nor ceremonial swords. All you have is stories that truly entertain people; in fact I also have a picture of the general secretary holding up the sword too, I don’t know what you’re trying to sell to these people neither do I agree of the information you told the judge. Kirpan was given by our 10th guru: guru gobind singh, just because you don’t wear the kirpan yourself, doesn’t mean that the kirpan is a weapon, it’s more than that, it’s a symbol given to us that we will protect ourselves and others if all other means has failed, the meaning of this is that kirpan is a symbol to prevent violence from occurring and not to sit idly when violence is happening.
2) “It works for them and is acceptable for the people who chose to follow that path. However, it is does help form the 'factions' that we have seen clash in other Gurdwaras (Canada, Europe, etc...).” Your form if Sikhism taught by the board members is absolutely flawed. You go around saying that there’s no need for a turban and please don’t deny it, repeatedly you say that outside appearance don’t matter, but to us it does, we are trying to teach our kids to take on the identity given by our guruji just because you don’t want to take on the identity doesn’t mean we don’t either. This is why there is a faction that was created in Rochester NY. We don’t want to bring up the argument of keshdari and non keshdari Sikhs; we just want to teach the fundamentals of Sikhism and what’s written in gurbani to the younger generation. You labeled us as radicals and called us fake Sikhs yet you guys were in no position to say that. You could’ve shown us what a true Sikh looked like and what a true Sikh did, but neither did you do that but you refused to teach kids Sikhism too and then banned the only Sikh that did teach gurbani to our children. Since you’re so enlightened by Rochester gossip, why don’t you tell us how many board members children even married Sikhs (answer: zero) that will prove my point to you of what you are promoting. You can look at us and label the wrong doings of two or three people but truly that doesn’t justify every one of us, you’re standing against the Rochester Sikh panth, and it’s not only our battle, it’s for the future generations of Sikhs such as our children where they can come and understand and enjoy the teachings of guruji.
3) My final point, you talk of elections taking place and how they have failed for the “banned Sikhs” yet you place the gurdwara in article 9 of religious nonprofit corporation, where you can’t even have elections. You are promoting dictatorship to all other Gurdwaras and this is wrong. You have stated that you have stopped the Sikhs from performing election fraud and that a successful election took place, but what reason do you give for even removing elections from taking place?
This is going to be my last post to you; you really don’t have a backing of the Sikh panth. NO Sikh I know of will ever remove Sikhs from the gurdwara, ban the kirpan and turn the gurdwara into a dictatorship. You have only banned only three Sikhs but more Sikhs will come out of the ashes and fight the oppression you have placed against us. It's time for the truth to be heard
p.s: Narayanjot Kaur, you have asked us a question of what the defendant were trying to incorporate, We have created a organization for the sole purpose of raising funds to fight the court case against us by the gurdwara.