Yogism Yoga To Reach Chauthaa Pada, The Fourth State

[Luckysingh]

My post is about yoga and how we don't understand what it really is.
I'm not trying to talk about meditation as that is something done on it's own accord. It can be done without any body postures.

I hope you can see the angle I'm coming from.

 

[Luckysingh]

I find a sewa, especially if no one know I am doing it, calming. Something which I want to do well will take my mind off personal troubles which in the end are ridiculous anyway.

Of course, as you can go from outward to inward or inward to out.
We have discussed previously that seva can be meditation and meditation itself can be seva.
The secret is knowing all along who is the doer ?

 

[BhagatSingh]

Lucky Singh ji,
I get what you are saying.
Yoga is defined as the path to union with God. This path could be anything. It does not have to be stretching the body. It could be as simple as taking flowers to the Gurudwara every morning.

 

[Harry Haller]

Yoga is defined as the path to union with God.

who defined this?
has anyone told the many atheists that practice yoga?

 

[BhagatSingh]

who defined this?

The guys who came up with it. It's an ancient system. Written records dating back to 2-3 BC.

has anyone told the many atheists that practice yoga?

It can be defined in a non-theistic way as well as "the path to union of individual consciousness with the Ultimate Consciousness". The original school of thought was non-theistic but seeing as this is a discussion within Sikhism, it's safe to define it as "path to union with God".

Sadly, it's one of the many terms that has come to the west and has been distorted over time.

 

[Luckysingh]

Harryji, You have to realise that gurbani does not condemn yoga.
It condemns empty practicing. Same goes with rituals.

If you understand the 'yoga' mentioned in gurbani, it is talking about this-

Yoga is defined as the path to union with God

and

who defined this?

- Well, the 'who' is not the question, because just like God, it was defined
in some very ancient times.

It is really quite simple when you understand it. It is just that in the times of today, everybody associates it with a recreation and health exercise.

 

[spnadmin]

I disagree. Yoga means nothing more than joining, connecting.

Yes, gurbani does not condemn yoga. No, "yoga" in Gurbani is not the path to God. Things are rather the other way around. In Gurbani, the path to God is our yoga. Something Guru Nanak does all the time in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and we see this also in the Janamsakki: Guru Nanak takes an ancient idea and turns it around on its head, opens a new door, paints a new horizon, shapes a new vision. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not the culmination of ancient teachings.



Luckysingh ji, my in-line edit: This may be what is not clear, "the path to God is our yoga." The path I am talking about is the way of the Gurmukh. So to reword: 'the path to God, to be Gurmukh and turn to the Guru, is our yoga."

 

[Luckysingh]

Yoga means nothing more than joining, connecting

Not sure what you disagree with because this is what we are trying to say.
It is all about the union and connecting.
Do you not think that we all carry out acts of yoga without even noticing ?
Because, I think we do. Maybe, that is my problem and weakness, so I may be completely wrong and just getting carried away in false beliefs!!

"yoga" in Gurbani is not the path to God

Could you explain what you think it means in gurbani ?
I would say gurbani is all about the path to God, and we know there is no fast or better path, it is about how we conduct ourselves in all aspects.

 

[spnadmin]

Gurbani does not say this.

If you understand the 'yoga' mentioned in gurbani, it is talking about this-

Yoga is defined as the path to union with God

 

[spnadmin]

Gurbani says this.

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
पउड़ी ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:


ਚਚਾ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗੁਰ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
चचा चरन कमल गुर लागा ॥
Cẖacẖā cẖaran kamal gur lāgā.
CHACHA: When I became attached to the Lord's Lotus Feet,


ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਉਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੰਜੋਗ ਸਭਾਗਾ ॥
धनि धनि उआ दिन संजोग सभागा ॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖan u▫ā ḏin sanjog sabẖāgā.
blessed, blessed is that day.


ਚਾਰਿ ਕੁੰਟ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਆਇਓ ॥
चारि कुंट दह दिसि भ्रमि आइओ ॥
Cẖār kunt ḏah ḏis bẖaram ā▫i▫o.
After wandering around in the four quarters and the ten directions,


ਭਈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤਬ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥
भई क्रिपा तब दरसनु पाइओ ॥
Bẖa▫ī kirpā ṯab ḏarsan pā▫i▫o.
God showed His Mercy to me, and then I obtained the Blessed Vision of His Darshan.


ਚਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬਿਨਸਿਓ ਸਭ ਦੂਆ ॥
चार बिचार बिनसिओ सभ दूआ ॥
Cẖār bicẖār binsi▫o sabẖ ḏū▫ā.
By pure lifestyle and meditation, all duality is removed.


ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੂਆ ॥
साधसंगि मनु निरमल हूआ ॥
Sāḏẖsang man nirmal hū▫ā.
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the mind becomes immaculate.


ਚਿੰਤ ਬਿਸਾਰੀ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥
चिंत बिसारी एक द्रिसटेता ॥
Cẖinṯ bisārī ek ḏaristeṯā.
Anxieties are forgotten, and the One Lord alone is seen,


ਨਾਨਕ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਜਿਹ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਾ ॥੨੨॥
नानक गिआन अंजनु जिह नेत्रा ॥२२॥
Nānak gi▫ān anjan jih neṯarā. ||22||
O Nanak, by those whose eyes are anointed with the ointment of spiritual wisdom. ||22||

What? I became attached to the Lord's feet (This is the yog/connection/joining/connecting)
Why? God showed his mercy - Gurprasaad
What happened? I obtained vision of his darshan
How? Pure lifestyle and meditation
Where? In the Sadhsangat (where mind becomes nirmal)

But for purposes of this discussion, the thread is now in Interfaith dialogs/Hinduism, which allows for more diversity of opinion.

 

[BhagatSingh]

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pauree:

ਚਚਾ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗੁਰ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
CHACHA for Charan - feet, connected to the lotus feet of the Guru.
ਧਨਿ ਧਨਿ ਉਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੰਜੋਗ ਸਭਾਗਾ ॥
blessed, blessed is that day of good fortune.


ਚਾਰਿ ਕੁੰਟ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਿ ਆਇਓ ॥
After wandering around in the four quarters and the ten directions,
ਭਈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤਬ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਓ ॥
I obtained the Vision through the blessing (of the Guru).


ਚਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬਿਨਸਿਓ ਸਭ ਦੂਆ ॥
Contemplating the four Vedas the duality was dissolved.
ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੂਆ ॥
In the congregation of saints, my mind has become pure.


ਚਿੰਤ ਬਿਸਾਰੀ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥
Anxieties are forgotten, and the One is seen,
ਨਾਨਕ ਗਿਆਨ ਅੰਜਨੁ ਜਿਹ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਾ ॥੨੨॥
Nanak says, spiritual knowledge becomes the surma (black cosmetic) of their eyes.


ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥
Shalok
ਛਾਤੀ ਸੀਤਲ ਮਨੁ ਸੁਖੀ ਛੰਤ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ॥
The heart is cooled and soothed and the mind is at peace, singing the praises of Gobind, the cow herder.


ਐਸੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਦਸਾਇ ॥੧॥
Show the kind of mercy Prabhu (Lord) that Nanak becomes the servant of (Your) servants.

(Next pauri builds up on this, the servant theme)

To my understanding the whole shabad fits into Sikh yoga, path to union with God, outlined as follows: close the distance between you and (a) Guru, contemplate spiritual texts, accompany saints and sing praises of Gobind.

:singhsippingcoffee:

 

[spnadmin]

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

To my understanding the whole shabad fits into Sikh yoga, path to union with God, outlined as follows: close the distance between you and (a) Guru, contemplate spiritual texts, accompany saints and sing praises of Gobind.

:singhsippingcoffee:

If this is how Sikh yoga path is being defined, then I agree, but only in part. There is only one spiritual text. SGGS is not culmination of centuries of vedic scripture.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

How do you get to 4 vedas in this tuk?

ਚਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬਿਨਸਿਓ ਸਭ ਦੂਆ ॥
Contemplating the four Vedas the duality was dissolved.

 

[BhagatSingh]

ਚਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬਿਨਸਿਓ ਸਭ ਦੂਆ ॥

It says "contemplating the four (ਚਾਰ) will eradicate duality". This refers to the four Vedas.

 

[spnadmin]

It says "contemplating the four (ਚਾਰ) will eradicate duality". This refers to the four Vedas.

I do not have the 4 vedas in front of me. But I do have 4 teekas in front of me. None of them are mentioning the 4 vedas. Would you share your reference/citation? Thanks.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The word "chaar" is not referring to the numeral four...
This tuk is form bavan akhree

and chaar is actually what normally written as "achaar"...and the next word is "bichar" contemplation....thus the first word is achaar...our actions..our daily habits..our daily maryada...acharan is descended from this and it means our "character"...

See mahan kosh for the correct meaning of this tuk.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Srigranth.org stopped functioning properly. Bummer. Is it just me or is anyone else having problems with their dictionary?

I try to do word by word translation myself. I know that ਚਾਰ isn't "pure lifestyle", it means "four". So I know it is referring to the four Vedas, I have the shabad below in mind. The Freed Kote Wala teeka also elaborates it as Four Vedas but it's not in English, it's old Punjabi.

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੯ ॥
In Raag Sorath by Guru Tegh Bahadur.

ਮਾਈ ਮਨੁ ਮੇਰੋ ਬਸਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Mother, my mind is not under my control.

ਨਿਸ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਬਿਖਿਅਨ ਕਉ ਧਾਵਤ ਕਿਹਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਰੋਕਉ ਤਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Night and day, it runs after the vices. by which method can I restrain it?. 1. Pause.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਕੇ ਮਤ ਸੁਨਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਹੀਏ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥
The mind listens to the Vedas, Puranas and Simritis but it does not enshrine them within.

ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸਿਉ ਰਚਿਓ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਿਰਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
Engrossed in the wealth and women of others, his life passes away uselessly. 2.

ਮਦਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੈ ਭਇਓ ਬਾਵਰੋ ਸੂਝਤ ਨਹ ਕਛੁ ਗਿਆਨਾ ॥
(Intoxicated) with the wine of Maya it has gone insane, and does not understand any spiritual wisdom.

ਘਟ ਹੀ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬਸਤ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੨॥
Deep within, the Immaculate Lord dwells, but it does not know this secret. 2.

ਜਬ ਹੀ ਸਰਨਿ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਆਇਓ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ॥
As soon as it came to the Sanctuary of Saints, its ignorance was dispelled.

ਤਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਚਿੰਤਾਮਨਿ ਕਾਟੀ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਫਾਸੀ ॥੩॥੭॥
Then Nanak remembered the Chintaamani, the jewel which fulfills all desires, and the noose of Death was snapped. 3. 7.

EDIT: Checked Mahankosh pdf version. ਚਾਰ can mean 1 four, 3 jail, 5 servant, 6 (achar - riti rasam) religious tradition and rites, 7 preaching, 8 walk, 10 mantra practice,

 

[spnadmin]

Srigranth.org stopped functioning properly. Bummer. Is it just me or is anyone else having problems with their dictionary?

I try to do word by word translation myself. I know that ਚਾਰ isn't "pure lifestyle", it means "four". So I know it is referring to the four Vedas, I have the shabad below in mind. The Freed Kote Wala teeka also elaborates it as Four Vedas but it's not in English, it's old Punjabi.

That source will automatically take you into review and consideration that the tuk is about "vedas."

Faridkot Wala Teeka is classical exegesis of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in Braj Bhasha by a team of scholars of Nirmala Sect (searchgurbani.org)


Checking my now 5th teeka, and Professor Sahib Singh, vedas never come up. In fact, we are not even having to smooth-talk our way around the vedas, as in "Well, it says vedas, but it really does not mean that." The subject of vedas just never comes into the picture. Gyani ji is using the reference of Mahan Kosh; no vedas.

Anyway, here is a nice arth of that tuk from Gurmukh Singh:

ਚਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਬਿਨਸਿਓ ਸਭ ਦੂਆ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਹੂਆ ॥
Cẖār bicẖār binsi▫o sabẖ ḏū▫ā. Sāḏẖsang man nirmal hū▫ā.

(Saadh sangi) in the company of the guru, (man) the mind (hooaa) becomes (nirmal) purified, (bichaar) thoughts become (chaar = beautiful) virtuous and (sabh dooa) all duality (binsio) is banished i.e. one thinks of none equal to the Creator. —

 

[BhagatSingh]

My experience has been that Freed Kote Wala is more accurate, more explanatory than Prof Sahib Singh. I use both together but end up getting much more out of the former.

ਬਿਚਾਰ is a verb here. Notice the grammar.

Gurmukh Singh Teeka, Prof Sahib Singh and the English translations all translate it as a noun, thus they are all wrong with regards to this verse.

 

[spnadmin]

My experience has been that Freed Kote Wala is more accurate than Prof Sahib Singh. I use both together but end up getting much more out of the former.

ਬਿਚਾਰ is a verb here. Notice the grammar.

Gurmukh Singh Teeka, Prof Sahib Singh and the English translations all translate it as a noun, thus they are all wrong with regards to this verse.

You have spoken. 5 teekas, Mahan Kosh, Professor Sahib ji, are all wrong and only Faridkot is correct.

You say you see the word "four" and also that it is not a shortened form of "achaar." But you did not say how the "vedas" came in to the picture. What made you pick 4 vedas instead of 4 of something else?