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spnadmin

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I'm not sure you can classify one kind of Sikhism as "real" as that implies all others are "false".

To classify one kind as traditional and another as whatever it is (ie. 3HO) I think is more reasonable.


ishna ji

Forgive me for being technical on this point. "Traditional" Sikhism has many meanings depending on whom we refer to. "Traditional" Sikhs more often than not is taken to mean "puratan" Sikhs. The puratan Sikhs were a varied group, and wrote rehats that are often startling in the way they contradict Gurbani. The "puratan" Sikhs of old, were influential following the collapse of the raj of Ranjit Singh and through the period of the British raj. These Sikhs included many groups who assimilated Hindu practices and beliefs. Following into the mid to late 19th Century a group title Singh Saba formed, with the objective to redefine Sikhs as distinct from Hindus, and to remove Vedantic influences. You guessed it! As time wore on Singh Saba itself, in order to create conditions for consensus among many different groupings of Sikhs, became more tolerant of Vedantic beliefs and of Hindu practices and influences. Thus we have for example, arti performed at Hazoor Sahib, and a jathedar who practices celibacy and may never leave Hazoor Sahib, nor speak a word while he is residence at Hazoor Sahib. Hazoori Sikhi is considered "puratan."

Traditional Sikhs may also refer to the early "traditions" or sampardaya which were off-shoots of Sikhi from its beginnings: Udassis, Nirmalas, Seva panthis. The first 2 "traditions" respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but give shared importance to the Vedas. They retain not only Hindu practices, but theology. In the case of Seva panthis, shared importance is given to the Quran.

I think what you mean by "traditional" is hard to define. At the end of the 19th Century and the dawn of the 20th Century, a group called Chief Khalsa Diwan was formed with the goal of "purifying" Sikhism. But the times were politically chaotic, and independence for India was on the horizon. If Sikhs were to find strength in numbers, coalitions were needed. So Chief Khalsa Diwan made compromises with the SinghSaba elements that had retained patterns of Hindu belief and worship. The Sikh Rehat Maryada was written under CKD's sponsorship. But it was not pure enough for some. Breaking away from Chief Khalsa Diwan was Panch Khalsa Diwan....also claiming to be "traditional" and pure. PKD was staunch and uncompromising. Today PKD is considered the forerunner both of Akaali Kirtan Jatha (AKJ), and a kind of bare bones Sikhi, often referred to as Lehr Khalsa... no Vedantic beliefs, no Hindu practices, strict compliance with the Sikh Rehat Maryada. With Indian Independence, the AKJ came to prominence. With the death of Jarnail Singh Bindhranwale Damdami Takht came to prominence. These two groups have rehats separate from the Sikh Rehat Maryada. They consider themselves traditional. Yet, Damdami Takht gives equal status to Dasam Granth with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Sarbloh Granth is dear to the Nihangs. Both Sarbloh Granth and Dasam Granth are heavily laced with Vedanctic belief and philosophy.

I have not myself been able to define the traditional Sikhi that you have identified. It may not be possible. Guru Nanak has said, There is one Sikhi....but I do not think he was talking about alignments, rehats, or adherence to sectarian beliefs when he said that. The story of 3HO, or more accurately, Sikh Dharma in the Western Hemisphere, demonstrates the same assimilation of beliefs that have Hindu roots. And for the sake of consensus within the panth the SGPC embraced Yogi Bhajan, but only after considerable internal political strife in the early 1980's. History repeats itself.

If I am wrong on any specifics or have left anything out, surely a forum member with PKD leanings will correct me.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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The present SRM known as SGPC/Akal Takhat approved Panth Parvanit (approved) is 99.9% PKD Rehat Maryada of Teja Singh Bhasaurr..the founder of PKD who was staunch friend of Bhai Sahib bhai randhir Singh Ji founder of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha (the word is AKHAND becasue they do continous KIRTAN a unique AKJ style of kirtan)..Bhai randhor Singh broke off from Teja Singh when the latter was EXCOMMUNICATED bY Akal takhat. After that the PKD rapidly declined - In Punjab as well as Overseas among the SikhDiaspora. ( Now in total reversal..an "excommunication" from Akal takhat is a sign of increased reverence among sikhs esp sikhs diaspora !!..whosoever the AT excommunicates receives Gold Medals and more satikaar from the Sikh Sangats..ala Ragi Darshan Singh Ji Bhai Kala Afghana..etc.....this shows the AT is out of touch with reality..
 

Ishna

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SPNadmin ji

Touche`, and good point. I'll admit it, I have no idea what I mean when I say "traditional" Sikhi. I guess it's some kind of romantic image in my mind that whatever Sikhi is practiced in Amritsar is the more accurate one. But, as with all things, it's never that easy. I seem to have this pre-conceived idea that the oldest or the original way of doing things has to be correct, so any modern interpretation has to be inaccurate in some way. I wonder if this is the same notion Kaur2be has?

A funny story: my step-father was visiting me and my husband recently, and I've just put a painting of a Singhni with dastaar on my lounge-room wall, and he goes "why are you always interested in the oldest religions?" and I'm like, "er, technically Sikhi is only around 500 years old". lol

Anyway SPNadmin ji, thank you a thousand times for the concise history of different groups! I've only just started reading about AKJ within the last two days so I wonder if you are some sort of mind reader, hehe.
 

Ishna

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And here's a question which I fear has no answer... All these groups have names... What are the "regular" Sikhs called? The ones who simply follow SGPC rehat maryada, do their ninem, try earn honest, share, remember Waheguru Ji, contemplate Guruji's bani, and live regular householder lives. Dare I say, the majority of us here! Where do we fit?
 

kds1980

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And here's a question which I fear has no answer... All these groups have names... What are the "regular" Sikhs called? The ones who simply follow SGPC rehat maryada, do their ninem, try earn honest, share, remember Waheguru Ji, contemplate Guruji's bani, and live regular householder lives. Dare I say, the majority of us here! Where do we fit?

At present there is no defination of what is regular sikh.Sikhism is now so severly divided that people have their own defination of sikh.The urban Sikhs of India are different from Rural sikhs.NRI sikhs are different from rural or urban sikhs
 

soon2bkaur

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Jun 23, 2011
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ishna ji
I have not myself been able to define the traditional Sikhi that you have identified. It may not be possible. Guru Nanak has said, There is one Sikhi....but I do not think he was talking about alignments, rehats, or adherence to sectarian beliefs when he said that. The story of 3HO, or more accurately, Sikh Dharma in the Western Hemisphere, demonstrates the same assimilation of beliefs that have Hindu roots. And for the sake of consensus within the panth the SGPC embraced Yogi Bhajan, but only after considerable internal political strife in the early 1980's. History repeats itself..

Pardon my extreme ignorance, what is the SGPC???
*blushing*
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Touche`, and good point. I'll admit it, I have no idea what I mean when I say "traditional" Sikhi. I guess it's some kind of romantic image in my mind that whatever Sikhi is practiced in Amritsar is the more accurate one. But, as with all things, it's never that easy. I seem to have this pre-conceived idea that the oldest or the original way of doing things has to be correct, so any modern interpretation has to be inaccurate in some way. I wonder if this is the same notion Kaur2be has?


A funny story: my step-father was visiting me and my husband recently, and I've just put a painting of a Singhni with dastaar on my lounge-room wall, and he goes "why are you always interested in the oldest religions?" and I'm like, "er, technically Sikhi is only around 500 years old".


Anyway SPNadmin ji, thank you a thousand times for the concise history of different groups! I've only just started reading about AKJ within the last two days so I wonder if you are some sort of mind reader

Ishna ji No "Touche" please! kudihug I was not criticizing or correcting. I was commiserating in a way....because figuring out the meaning, or the right word, for "traditional" has been a long term question for me too. Who is traditional? Who is pure Sikh?

There is a really good book about this...short too...written by a Hindu who carries no baggage about this subject. He is a political scientist and puts the entire course of the story in the context of political conditions surrounding each generation of Sikhs who were themselves struggling with identity. Per usual, it will take me some time to find the reference.

Sikh identity seems always to have been a matter of struggling out of cultural and political surroundings, even as far back as the brother of Guru Nanak, Sri Chand, and the beginning of the Udassis sect.

I love the story about your father-in-law. In a way he is right. Sikhi is young, but to get what is going on, one has to go all the way back to 1200 AD...or so it seems to me. Anyway I also struggle.... but struggle lightly. One day I decided the only way was for me to decide where I stood on all of this, and where to draw the line. For ME the line is the SRM. I decided to take it easy on everyone else. Otherwise, each ME will be in the business of deciding who is a Sikh based on the personal opinion of one person....the one and only ME.
 

spnadmin

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Pardon my extreme ignorance, what is the SGPC???
*blushing*

No no no! It is not ignorance. You are just opening the book at page 1. SGPC stands for Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, http://www.sgpc.net/

an elected group of Sikhs in Amritsar who under Indian Law manage a number of Gurdwaras in Punjab and Haryana. Of late SGPC has assumed other powers. This has caused immense controversy in about the last 10 years. The SGPC itself has a tumultuous history.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,219
And here's a question which I fear has no answer... All these groups have names... What are the "regular" Sikhs called? The ones who simply follow SGPC rehat maryada, do their ninem, try earn honest, share, remember Waheguru Ji, contemplate Guruji's bani, and live regular householder lives. Dare I say, the majority of us here! Where do we fit?

I would say that "regular" Sikhs are Sikhs who work very hard to peel back to the basic message of Guru Nanak.
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
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Jun 17, 2004
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Ishna and soon2bkaur

This is the reference I spoke of a few posts back. "Sikhism and Indian Civilization edited by R.J. Pruthi. See Chapter 4, by Neil Barrier, "Sikh Tradition and Competing Ideology," at this link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kx...6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=panch khalsa diwan&f=false

You may agree that it helps to put todays controversies over belief and practice into understandable language. And it pulls things together. I have uploaded the chapter's last paragraphs. They give a flavor of the entire essay.
 

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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Sikhi..is NOT just "500" years old....just as "I" am not just 62 (born as jarnail Singh in 1949)!!my DNA goes back along long way back..... Sikhi goes back...back...BACK..when THE "WORD" was with GOD..and GOD was with .."The Word"....whe it was ALL ARBAD NARBAD...DHUNDOOKAARA...deep silence..darkness....nothing except HIM seated in samadhee...contemplating upon Himslef...Eons upon Eons passed...KEETA PASAAAO EKO KAVAAAO...a split second..and it came into MOTION..and has been ever since !! Continous motion !! (Arbad is a number of zeroes at value of N(arbad)...never ending zeroes...!! SHABAD...THE WORD is SIKHI...fastforward to 10th century..Bhagats Namdev...12th century..Sheikh farid..and then further..Bhagat Kabir Ji..Guru nanak Ji..1708 GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI...and the KHALSA...the ever RENEWING FORCE that will be in continous motion for ever...that is SIKHI/GURMATT that Guru nanak ji painted in the EK Oangkaar symbol symbosis of alphabet+Number..until then GOD was always in ALPHABETS !! as Bhagwaan, Vishnu, brahma, Yasudev, Yahveh. GOD, whatever..always in ALPHABETS..Guru nanak ji BROKE with that Tradition and came up with this unique and Only one of its kind alphanumeric Name ( ** DONT computer experts always advise us to design an ALPHANUMERIC **Password...that would be much SAFER and more unbreakable than a simple alphabetical or numerical one ??....well well well GURU NANAK JI sahib gave us the STRONGEST and most unbreakable PASSWORD YET to connect to HIM !! 500 years ago ha ha..until then..the best the Jews could do was..advise to keep YAHWEH "secret" (no saying it aloud..this was the usual advise when passwords first came out...dont write it down..dont tell anyone else..blah blah..same advise being bandied about by cults like the radhasomis..)..Guur nanak ji came out with NO SECRETS..public declared Naam !!).
What is happening to Sikhism today is a carbon copy of what happened to Christianity...at one time the closest christianity to christ was in Rome...over time Rome became contaminated..and vatican became sick..and now we ahve modern christianity with about 1000 sects...ranging form Mormons to seventh day advetists and protestants..and what not...today in the Sikh Context...sgpc/Amritsar is vatican - sick and diseased....and we have cults like radhasoamis, namdharees, nirnakarees, sirsa babas, dhadrianwallahs, rarrehwallahs nanaksariahs, taksaals..etc etc..each with its own CULTISH LEADERS and practsises...all with a little bt of genuine sikhi..BUT NONE with ALL of it...the Takhats are sick..the sgpc is sick..the delhi dgmc is sick...its just the degree of sickness that is different...NOT ONE IS 100% HEALTHY !!..except on an INDIVIDUAL BASIS....on this individual palne there are plenty of sikhs who are healthy wealthy and wise....as well as sickly, poor and plain STUPID. LITMUS TEST to check out whcih is which...GURBANI of SGGS..see how much is followed..and adhered to in daily life !! The More adherence..the healthier the sikh...
 

Ishna

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SPNadmin ji, that was an awesome link! A thousand thank yous for sharing it! It is that depth of history which I lack because I just don't know where to look and what to search for. peacesignkaur
 

Ishna

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Gyani ji, if I'm understanding you correctly, it is ok to say the individual now bears the majority of responsibility to guide him/herself through Sikhi by following SGGS, but what about becoming amritdhari, and sangat? You can't have these two institutions without some kind of governance to establish common understanding... If it was up to SGGS then we wouldn't have a khande di pahul (not sure I spelt that right) ceremony for becoming amritdhari because from what I can gather from my limited understanding of Gurbani is that this all happens internally in your own internal amrit fountain which springs straight from the individual's connection to Naam.

But sangat is such a prominent part of Sikhi, it's hard to reconcile the individual spiritual path with the communal one since we're all too individual to have broad and lasting consensus on things!

I'm doing a very poor job of explaining this.
 

spnadmin

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Ishna ji

The problem you are identifying is at the crux of yet another false dichotomy in Sikhi, which you are resonating with. I respect you for taking the time to reflect with us on this.

Some would have us believe we are urged to be "sant" through 9 Gurus
the individual now bears the majority of responsibility to guide him/herself through Sikhi by following Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji,

or urged to be a warrior and sipahi by the 10th Guru Gobind Singh.

If it was up to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then we wouldn't have a khande di pahul (not sure I spelt that right) ceremony for becoming amritdhari

Bur he was contending to the political brutality faced in his times. It was a matter of panthic survival. It is easy to forget we are supposed to internalize the idea of sant/sipahi, to be both saint and soldier. This idea crystalized with Guru Hargobind, but is found in the bani of Guru Nanak. So it looks as if there is a problem, and we are stuck, but we are not. And we will pull through it in one form or another.

Sikhism took form as a visible religious identity as early as Guru Angad. I will get back to you.
 
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