General Akhand Paath In Languages Other Than The Original

[Ishna]

For clarity it might help to use standard definitions. A translation is the result of someone reading words in one language and writing them down using the corresponding words of another language. Sometimes it may not be a word-for-word translation as the translator might use phrases in the other language to convey the meaning of the text which might be lost to the foreign reader. Example of translation: Sat Naam / True Name.

A transliteration is the phonetic representation of a word using a foreign script. For example, 'Sat' is the phonetic representation of Gurmukhi sassa sihari tatta. A transliteration is meaningless unless you understand the original language.

So my question in fact is, what is the sangat's opinion of an uninterrupted reading of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in English translation (There is One God, the True Name, Primal Creator, without fear, without hatred, etcetera).

The alternative for someone who doesn't understand Punjabi etc fluently is to listen to an interrupted barrage of nonsense (to their ears). The reader could be speaking TellyTubby language and the listener would be none the wiser. (this is an extreme example to illustrate the point and disrespect to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is NOT intended)

If the listener doesn't understand then the act is bordering on ritual unless the are listening with some other intention.

I thought akhand paaths were spoken, not sung. If they are spoken, is it possible to convey raag?

 

[Chaan Pardesi]

[[[The alternative for someone who doesn't understand Punjabi etc fluently is to listen to an interrupted barrage of nonsense (to their ears). The reader could be speaking TellyTubby language and the listener would be none the wiser. (this is an extreme example to illustrate the point and disrespect to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is NOT intended)


If the listener doesn't understand then the act is bordering on ritual unless the are listening with some other intention.]]]



The answer is simple & straightforward..and has been seen in practice and proven.The American Sikh converts all speak excellent english!BUT all their patth pooja is conducted in Punjabi; despite the fact their first introduction to Sikhi was in English, or for the sake of pulling hairs here and there, say it is in AMERICAN English!

If a driver does not understand the laws of traffic and has no road sense, then just because he has the key and knows how to start the car , does not qualify him to drive!

Neither can he decide that as he understands roads run this way and that way, he simply drives this way or that way!Rules are present in any society!


Thus, if one wishes genuine understanding in any subject or religion, one has to make efforts to learn the knowledge and rules of that and understand how certain practices are conducted.


Just as one cannot be building ten mile long bridges across seas simply from reading books; or reading from a translated version of Punjabi, from English!



If I dont understand farsi in the company of Afghans , then it is my misfortune that I dont have the skill;nothing comes platted on a platter like many expect these days.The afghans are not going to change their language that has history for the sake of one me,for one day or ten minutes.. that has no knowledge and understanding of their language.Someone may interpret and explain but that does not qualify me an expert in farsi!




If one wishes to be a teletubby-than that is their own bringing! I see many today even among the Punjabis who are more than teletubbies..instead are busy rattling on their own teletubby language and have no clue what the paathi is rendering through his ucharan of the Guru Granth Sahib..so the issue of the language being in Punjabi or not has no bearing upon such teletubbies!It does not make them non teletubbies simply because they can speak Punjabi- but as they dont understand, it is easier to remain a teletubby for them.


There is so much of an expectation of everything on the platter these days...I grew up in a small town with no Punjabi school; no gurmukhi or learning facilities in the gurduara, but because of the need to know and my own interests in the language and religion.. I pained to learn the Punjabi language, and struggled through to learn abt Guru Granth sahib...without any supervison but making sure I did it correctly listening to and reading of others..now I have been commented to be a clear and and correct Ucharian - paatthi of Guru Granth sahib, thanks to the Guru sahib!



If I had sat around like the teletubbies and expect the humans change and accept my teletubby language simply because I dont understand theirs, human progress would have not come abt!

Life is more than often not fair, nor offers an equal opportunity for all...like some understand to differentiate between what has been explained , others will go on about the bush...there is absolutely nothing stopping one to learn about Guru Granth sahib and sikhi in any language, but there is certain protocols in sangat that have to be conducted by certain people in certain manner.

I have seen many people who have become mona, have ability to conduct their patth in the Gurus language, BUT, the BIG BUT they cannot conduct the same in the sangat nor sit in the tabiya of the Guru Granth sahib in the darbar sahib!Yet there is absolutely nothing short comming in their ability to conduct the patth in Punjabi.These people have also become another brand of teletubbies, sadly!

Finally, the parampara of the Sikh code of conduct does not allow a patth in the tranliterated versions and I dont see any possibility of that.

Islam is a good example.There are hudereds translated versions of the Koran in almost all languages of the world; but all prayers are still conducted in their mosque through the traditional language of Arabic- despite that one muslim from Africa into the mosque will not understand another muslim that has come from Indonesia - but the Koran joins them in ONE language.That has not turned them into teletubbies; yet Sikhs come with hundereds of excuses that they may as well be teletubies; well I say than it is their own fault, but no boy's else!Gurfateh.

 

[Ishna]

Good post, thanks for your views.

I am now inspired to find, or create, a resource to help others like myself to actually learn the meanings of the words of at least nitnem bania instead of just learning how to parrot Punjabi without knowing what they're really saying. Because yes, a common language unites and Sikhi is about unity not division.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

help others like myself to actually learn the meanings of the words

Isi If you can translate what you have learnt into actions that is enough,you can do it with one word,don't seek knowledge,engage with the source,living the truth is intuitive.God is a presence he hears without words,quiet.

 

[Ishna]

True SP bhaji but Sikhs have a discipline to maintain and a scripture in a common language which we should all make efforts to understand. Sikhi advocates for life in the temporal and spiritual realms, for intellectual thinking and intuitive understanding, for knowledge and experience. In my view anyway.

At the same time you do raise a good point that ultimately 'God' is beyond and human language. Nevertheless as Gurbani says, with words we speak and praise - there is no escaping it. I will add proper reference when I get to a PC.

For myself the jury is still out on the akhand paath issue but I think that problem for me is larger than language anyway. I am grateful for the reminders about communal language though.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

I am afraid Sikhs behave like this...The gate is locked and closed..we DONT have the Spare key ( RESOURCES in ENGLISH etc )...and only THOSE INSIDE (Punjabi Sikhs) are authorised to use the Original key (Gurmukhi/Punjabi Script and language)....we wont permit anyone picking the lock..we wont tolerate any locksmiths coming around..and we certainly wont permit any gate crashing..jumping over the gate..just stay outside...too bad...

 

[itsmaneet]

i feel people do all for their convenience and would not worry if Gurbani is getting affected by translation or not. Whoever is interested in Gurbani shud first learn Gurmukhi and then read Gurbani in it's original form. If smone really is in love with Gurbani, then learning Gurmukhi is not a big deal. in short, originality must be maintained ....

 

[Ishna]

Learning Gurmukhi means nothing without also learning Punjabi.

A new Sikh has to learn Gurmukhi and then Punjabi before even contemplating nitnem banis... at least it appears that is how some people feel. That's fine if they want to feel that way.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with studying English translations and maintaining a nitnem routine in English as one learns the required language. IMHO.

Reference about words as promised earlier:

Ang 4
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥
Asaʼnkẖ nāv asaʼnkẖ thāv.
Innumerable are Thine Names and innumerable Thine abodes, O Lord!
ਅਗੰਮ ਅਗੰਮ ਅਸੰਖ ਲੋਅ ॥
Agamm agamm asaʼnkẖ lo▫a.
Innumerable are Thine realms, inaccessible and inscrutable.
ਅਸੰਖ ਕਹਹਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Asaʼnkẖ kėhahi sir bẖār ho▫e.
Even to call them myriad amounts to carrying load of sin on the head.
ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
Akẖrī nām akẖrī sālāh.
Through words Thy Name is uttered and through words Thou art praised.
ਅਖਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੀਤ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਹ ॥
Akẖrī gi▫ān gīṯ guṇ gāh.
Through words the songs of Thy theology and Thine attributes are hymned.
ਅਖਰੀ ਲਿਖਣੁ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬਾਣਿ ॥
Akẖrī likẖaṇ bolaṇ bāṇ.
In letters the uttered hymns are recorded.
ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥
Akẖrā sir sanjog vakẖāṇ.
Destiny is described with letters on Mortal's brow.
ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Jin ehi likẖe ṯis sir nāhi.
But He (God) who scribed these destinies has no scribes on his head (His head bears it not).
ਜਿਵ ਫੁਰਮਾਏ ਤਿਵ ਤਿਵ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
Jiv furmā▫e ṯiv ṯiv pāhi.
As He ordains, so do men obtain.
ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
Jeṯā kīṯā ṯeṯā nā▫o.
As great is thy creation, so great is Thine celebrity.
ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ॥
viṇ nāvai nāhī ko thā▫o.
Without Thy Name, there is no place.
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Kuḏraṯ kavaṇ kahā vīcẖār.
What power have I to describe Thine doctrines (Thee)?
ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
vāri▫ā na jāvā ek vār.
I cannot even once be a sacrifice unto Thee.
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥
Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai sā▫ī bẖalī kār.
Whatever pleases Thee; that is a good pursuit.
ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੯॥
Ŧū saḏā salāmaṯ nirankār. ||19||
Thou art ever safe and sound, O Formless One!

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Ishna Ji..you wrote:
Learning Gurmukhi means nothing without also learning Punjabi.
..ha ha right...absolutely agree with this..


Whats the use of memorising the 26 ABC - Z..IF one neglected to learn ENGLISH...same thing. Gurmukhi is simply the SCRIPT..the ABC- oora airrah eerree....NOTHING MORE.
One will have to proceed to LANGUAGE.

2. Point no. 2..Just because I know English..doesnt automatically make me an expert in the Bible..even if its the King james Version...I will have to learn a lot more..shakespeare..milton..a little bit of Latin..french etec etc etc...and MUCH MORE than a Simple Grade in English...Same for PUNJABI...knowing Punjabi even as far as a UNIVERSITY DEGREE also wont guarantee anything...its a Life time JOB with full DEDICATIOn and LOVE ++ Guur Kirpa..GRACE.

So people who are hoping to make do with just transliterations are content to look at Chocolate cakes displayed in the WINDOW...one has to go in..buy one..dig into it..to get the real feel of a well made choc cake !!! Looking at a reflection in a shop window just wont do...but if it satisfies you..then OK..no one can force you even to enter the bakery...BUT if one relishes the real taste..then its a different ball game alltogether..ha ha..

 

[Ishna]

2. Point no. 2..Just because I know English..doesnt automatically make me an expert in the Bible..even if its the King james Version...I will have to learn a lot more..shakespeare..milton..a little bit of Latin..french etec etc etc...and MUCH MORE than a Simple Grade in English...Same for PUNJABI...knowing Punjabi even as far as a UNIVERSITY DEGREE also wont guarantee anything...its a Life time JOB with full DEDICATIOn and LOVE ++ Guru Kirpa..GRACE.

I hear what you're saying Gyaniji, but at the same time I'm filled with a sense of hopelessness. What hope is there for a poor, uneducated person to realise Naam without the privilege of intense education and wide experience of all things Punjabi and classical and historical?

Where does one even start?

If you discover Sikhi when you're 60 (as some people do) do you give up because you no longer have a lifetime to learn? :motherlylove:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

I hear what you're saying Gyaniji, but at the same time I'm filled with a sense of hopelessness. What hope is there for a poor, uneducated person to realise Naam without the privilege of intense education and wide experience of all things Punjabi and classical and historical?

Where does one even start?

If you discover Sikhi when you're 60 (as some people do) do you give up because you no longer have a lifetime to learn? :motherlylove:

NO YOU DONT..because thats precisely HIS PLAN for YOU..tailored to FIT.
Thats the REASON Behind..the GURGADEE to MIDDLE AGED MEN..already set deep in their RUTS..like Bhai Lehhnna Ji...to really OLD MEN..78++ Bhai Amardass Ji..at an age where even Gurbani says a satra bahtera man is SENILE !!..and YOUNG CHILD..Guur harkishan JI,,,,what would you say to a 7 year old CHILD GURU ?? You see HOW WELL GURMATT is Planned..its all so perfect and in balance...we just have to ACCEPT HIS PLAN..and move accordingly !!! Its ALL in ACCEPTANCE. PERIOD. You see how the Middle aged man TRANSFORMED into GURU ANGAD..how the SENILE old man penned the ANAND SAHIB...rivalling Japji sahib in sheer beauty and flow..!!! See how the 7 year old child Guru kept SIKHI alive and kicking...thats the REAL BEAUTY....mundahugmundahugmundahugmundahugmundahug

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

realise Naam

Isi I assure you realising is what matters,you need just a clear soft heart, not clear hard hearted pronunciation, trust me in this ,I read Gurmukhi with English translation just like you I'm english educated,that does not matter, some force their will with much effort and have learnt to speak our Guru's word fluently but sometimes it does not soften their core ,with grace you can be a realiser of the simple fact that God is not separate from you.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

NEVER GIVE UP. THATS THE KEY AS SP jis has also expounded. I saw a Film yesterday..karate Kid 3..and inside it was a scene that reminded me of Guru Amardass ji asking Tharras be built by his sons and son in law. They kept building..and the Guru kept rejecting..UNTIL ONLY BHai jetha Ji (Guru ramdass Ji) kept GOING...PERSEVERANCE.

in the Film the black girl came to a Karate expert to learn karate . He told her to 1. Take off your jacket...2. hang it on a nail....3. Take it off the Nail...4 WEAR IT back on....1. Take it off..hang it up..take it down..wear it..take it off...The girl did it a few times out of RESPECT for the teacher..But it was becoming evident she was fed up..This wnet on for a FEW DAYS..she felt like giving up..even went so far to tell the teacher..I THINK you are a Fake..you dont know anything about Karate..thats why you make me do this stupid take off hang up, take down wear jacket stuff thousand times..and then finally when the girl had persevered enough the Teacher explained..the Take it OFF were MOVES to strengthen arm muscles..hang up, remove eta bend down all MOVES that make one strong...so it is with NAAM...GURBANI..it takes practice..practice and more practise...

 

[Ambarsaria]

I hear what you're saying Gyaniji, but at the same time I'm filled with a sense of hopelessness. What hope is there for a poor, uneducated person to realise Naam without the privilege of intense education and wide experience of all things Punjabi and classical and historical?

Where does one even start?

If you discover Sikhi when you're 60 (as some people do) do you give up because you no longer have a lifetime to learn? :motherlylove:

Ishna Bhain ji I authorize you to study Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in any language you wish. winkingmunda

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji needs a pure heart. Nothing more and nothing less. This sets the metrics as to what you are going to get out of it.

Beyond that use and train your senses and enjoy the ride. Never let it become less than enjoyable or a ritual of little personal value to you. I believe Gyani ji kind of strongly made a point about rituals earlier :interestedsingh:

We all need to understand one thing. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is poetry. No one can truly translate poetry, the embedded ambiance, the environ and so on regardless of language. People simply state what they get out of it. Some of this will be liked by some, disliked by some or hated by a whole bunch. But these are all personal efforts and are all good if these were results of a pure heart and good intent.

If you like a Shabad you want described or re-translated with different person's understanding feel free to post. Similarly if you have difficulty with anything just ask and I am sure people will help.

You have made lot of great contributions here. Keep it up.

Sat Sri Akal.