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Ardaas Changed

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Sidqui sikh

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Jan 9, 2009
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This is something which is technically and conceptually very wrong as both sikhs and hindus are worshipers of Bhagoti the power of one supreme God. Hindus mainly worsipping it in sargun form in the form of Chandi and the sikhs mainly in the Nirgun form.It is written in the shastras that without shakti(Power) ,Shiv(God) is as good as a Shav(Corpse) therefore the central theme of the ardaas shold not be changed.
 

Par

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Mar 19, 2009
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There we go again. our real Ardas should be 'too thaakur tum peh ardaas. AGGS-268-1' as per the Hukam of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who ordained AGGS as our everpresent Guru for all ages to come. Now fast forward to the present, these and many other issues (mostly identity based), we are arguing about in vain. Maybe there are as many Sikh Religions as the number of Sikhs in this world. My thinking in my statement was that we have a huge baggage of rituals, and it has become even heavier by the influence of the dominant Brahminic intelligence, which our Gurus earnestly wanted to erase from our lives. That said, I want to qualify here that I am an old MONA SIKH. I percieve the simple truth about various issues of Sikhs as - 'every Khalsa is a Sikh, but not every Sikh is a Khalsa'. These are TWO separate entities, and should live in harmony and with absolute respect for each other. I am a Sikh of AGGS. It is time to follow the teachings of our Gurus, let us all work to remove the shackles of rituals, which got added upon us without even our knowing.
-par singh
usa
 
Feb 7, 2008
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parminder

Beginning pauri of aradas is by Guru Gobind singh ji. You write that you obey SGGS as your Guru because Guru Gobind singh asked sikhs to do that. If you accept his this hukam then why do not accept his Hukam of getting baptized. If you consider that a ritual then why you attach singh with your name? You could be very called a lal or chand or Kumar also.

There are no different versions of sikhism. Sikhism has ten masters from ist to tenth. Their teachings and acts are equally important for sikhs.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Re: Ardass changed..

Dear All,

IMHO prayer and its words can be individualized but have a question from where did 35 Bhagats came; where as a breakdown of the 5,867 hymns found in the Guru Granth Sahib; include the writings of 6 Gurus, 15 Bhagats (of different faiths), 3 Sikh Bards, 8-17 Bhatts, and Raag Mala?

Cordially,

Virinder

Respected Grewal Ji,
Gurfateh.

Imho..the figure 35 is arived at... 15 + 3 + 17 = 35. Writer of Raagmala is UNKNOWN.
 

vsgrewal48895

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Re: Ardass changed..

Dear Giani Ji,

Thanks for the information about 35 though not exactly accurate. Here are my two cents on Raag Mala;


RAG MALA/ਰਾਗਮਾਲਾ


In A.D. 1583, a Mohammedan poet by the name of Alim wrote “Madhva Nal Sangit” describing the love affair of Madhava Nal with his beloved Kam Kandala. This work consisted of 353 stanzas of four to six lines each. Rag Mala in AGGS is a part of the above work from sixty third to seventy second stanzas. The account of this story also appears in the tale 91 of Chirtro Pakhyan of Dasam Granth.

AGGS is written in 31 modes of music. The Rag Mala in AGGS describes about 17 of these Raags, Raginis and their subdivisions as sons and daughters of these Ragas. Each Raag is accompanied by five sub-ragas, much like their spouses, along with 8 meters, as their sons, which the musicians sing. By the sunrise they sing, the “Bhairou Raag” along with five more sub-ragas in an accompaniment. First they sing Raag Bhairvi, then Bilawali, second, along with Punia, third, and Bangli, the fourth. Then the fifth sub-raga of Aslekhi, ragini, is sung. These are just the five sub-ragas of Raag Bhairou.

Pancham, Harkh and Disakh are sung next, followed by Bangalam and Madhu Ragas. They are all repeated once more along with Bilawal as the eight shoots of Raag Bhairou. Other Ragas follow similarly. The Ragas mentioned here do not correspond to the Ragas in AGGS. It should be understood that:

A. Rag Mala is NOT Gurbani.

B. It is not clear how and when it was included in the sacred AGGS.

It further raises few questions;

How many Sikhs know about the number of Ragas used in AGGS?

How many Raagis know about these Ragas and sing the Gurbani in the Ragas it is supposed to be sung as written?
How does reading it affect one’s spirituality, how ever it educates one about the Ragas IMHO?

If Mundavani is the seal placed by Guru Arjan to AGGS then why Guru Gobind Singh broke the seal by adding his father’s Bani and his Sloke # 54 in response to his father’s Sloke # 53 on page 1429 of AGGS.

The above should not be viewed as contentious since the inclusion of Raag Mala has done no harm. On the contrary one learns something about Ragas, through their inclusion and they broaden one’s perspective on music a bit. Hopefully all the Gurbani of AGGS is sung in the modes of music it is written.

Cordially,

Virinder S. Grewal
Williamston, MI
 

vsgrewal48895

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Re: Ardass changed..


PRAYER/ਅਰਦਾਸ

It is a conscious realization of a personal intimate relationship with Holy Omnipotent God, putting aside all selfish desires so one can experience communion with the Akal Purkh, while being hindered by worldly egos. It is a supplication for benefits either for one’s self (petition) or for others (intercession). To pray is to know how to stand still and to dwell on the Word. It is the opportunity to remind one’s self of his priorities and what is most important and vital. Prayer is a reflexive verb meaning. Reciting prayer with belief and conviction literally is the service of the heart and reciting it with out belief in it is lip service. Through prayer one connects to a higher source of love and energy, whenever there is a need of comfort or direction. There is no other better way to open up to the universal, loving, and Universal Creative Energy available to human species.

God is unknowable, infinite, unapproachable (beyond the reaches of human intellect), formless, and imperceptible. One should pray to the Creator and not to the things created by the It. Prayer does not require a language to communicate and can be done successfully in silence. All Knower is neither blind nor deaf and knows what is unsaid.

Prayer describes a state of mind of complete surrender to God in which a person becomes humility incarnate. God is always merciful and kind. Its nature is giving not taking. God never bounces back prayer from humble servants. However all powers are with God, which implies that to answer a prayer is Its prerogative. It is not a check that you can draw on the bank of God, whenever you are hard put to meet your needs. Prayer always springs out of a sense of need and belief, that God is a rewarder of them who seek it diligently whether literate or illiterate. True prayer coming out from the depths of the heart and bereft of selfish desires with complete unconditional surrender is always answered. The only way to compel the God is to love and praise, appreciate, and be thankful with an attitude of gratitude.

We may think of prayer as thoughts or feelings expressed in words. Contemplative prayer is the opening of mind and heart- our whole being- to Akal Purkh, the ultimate mystery, beyond thoughts, words and emotions. We open our awareness to the God whom we know by faith with in us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking and closer than consciousness it self and is perceptible in each one’s heart.

The Truest prayer is “Not my will but Thine will be done” followed by dutiful and energetic action. We can only aspire to bring our lives, our wishes and thoughts in to harmony with the Divine Law. It means we have to ask in spirit of unselfishness and purity of heart, desiring nothing but submitting unconditionally to the Universal Spirit. Thus freeing the mind of attachments and desires. All that is remained was pure supreme light “the seed of our existence and identity”.

We are born naked and we leave naked. Yet in between we accumulate wealth, family, belongings, a good name, religious pride, pride of the body, and good looks. In themselves they are just things-neither good nor bad. These attachments in our minds have to be destroyed in the fire of focusing contemplative meditation.

The Truth will be revealed when the mind is freed “Oh man recognize yourself,” and see the source of pure supreme light. The aim of the seeker on this path is to have no aims for any desires. When you have no desires, you have conquered the all-wandering mind. The mind is the total sum of desires. The mind is like a bird flying aimlessly, and going in to the future hopes and desires or running back in to the past memories and sorrows. Most people spend their lives like this, resulting in stress, depression, burnt out, no happiness, and uncontented, unfulfilled hopes, bitterness, negativity and so on.

Ordinary consciousness is made up of desires, cravings, fears, and prejudices, fixed ideas, habits and lower instincts. The mysterious central power is located in Our Self. So we should strive to seek with in. Close the outer senses and open the eye of the mind upon the world with in.
Most prayers are more or less selfish requests to God to make exceptions in favor of the petitioner, which if not granted leads to:

• Loosing faith.

• Killing self-reliance.

• Developing more ferocious selfishness and egotism than what is already endowed by nature.
If one’s devotion is sincere, a response is drawn from the field of Universal Creative Energy that may be interpreted as an answer to the prayer. Prayer response, or having needs met without asking for assistance, does not prove that God cares for us (we understand caring expressed by one person to another). The situation and the process do not need to be analyzed and explained: if the relationship satisfies the seeking heart, with results following that is sufficient. Complete understanding will unfold with illumination of consciousness.

Because God's nature is what it is, so long as we have even a faint intellectual grasp or partial intuitive insight of the reality of God, there should be no questions in our minds about whether or not God loves us, cares for us, approves of us, or wants us to awaken spiritually. This is all right if one is willing to learn and to grow in knowledge and grace. A contrasting condition, which is also self-defeating, is an attitude of individual superiority, which may be expressed as arrogance, and denial of any need for a relationship with the Higher Power.

There are and always have been human beings who have progressed spiritually beyond the majority of race and i.e. what we are aspiring in this spiritual growth. The whole purpose of life is to strengthen character, which is the school of conscience, by humbly requesting God to remove our character defects.

One should implore for the strength to subjugate the lower instinct and fortitude to develop the higher instincts.

Conclusion:

Prayer is not a way to manipulate God in to doing what an individual desires but it is an attempt to get in to fellowship with God. In prayer one should try to figure out what he or she should be as Akal Purkh wants him/her to be rather than asking God what It should do. In prayer one should accept Akal Purkh’s Will (ਭਾਣਾ) and say that, “Thy Will be done”. The wording of the prayer does not matter and can be individualized by the petitioner. It is the sincerity of the prayer, which matters. It is the motive that makes difference between true and false prayer. Only the prayer coming from the depths of the heart is accepted at the door of the Creator. Other prayers are self-deception and hypocrisy.
Prayer is the constant yearning to know the Truth and be worthy of it. It is the striving of the mind towards its parent Divinity the Universal Spirit. Outwardly prayer should express it- self in actions by which we strive to manifest, which is best in us.

Cordially,
Virinder S.Grewal
 

GillAUS

SPNer
Apr 20, 2009
36
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Australia
This is terrible news. There is nothing 'revolutionary' changing around the opening part of the Ardaas because this is from the holy pen of Guru Gobind Singh and has been taken from Chandi Di Vaar, which IS GURBANI.

Adding parts to Ardaas AFTER this can perhaps be done however, there should be consensus amongst the sangat.

I guess these people think their penmanship is greater than Guru Gobind Singh's.
 

spnadmin

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GillAUS ji

I myself am mystified by the story and did some research on Sikhs in Finland as possible on the Internet. There is not a lot of information. There are only 4 gurdwaras -- and two are San Mat, one is affiliated with Yogi Bhajan and 3HO, and then there is one that appears to be a mainstream Sikh gurdwara. The article does not give the name of the gurdwara -- most likely it is not the Sant Mat or 3HO gurdwara. Sant Mat does not adhere to tenets of Sikhism anyway, and 3HO are very strict about Ardaas conforming with the rehat mayrada. It is impossible from the little information that is available to figure out more about the sangat. Very strange story.
 

JarnailSingh

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Aug 18, 2006
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khalsa ji, I understand the sentiments behind these changes in ardaas. khalsa panth can do it, as done earlier but dont take steps in haste. how one gurdwara or a few sikh or organisations can change ardaas. dont glamarise this act. if tomorrow any oyher gurdwara or dera would change ardaas then what would you do. this is going to hurt sikh community. it would create divisions in sikh comunity. in last i dont think the change they have made is right. yes we should pray to akalpurakh only but dont change 'pritham bhagauti....' as it is part of guru gobind singh jis baani. people are making mistake because they think bhagauti means sword or bhagwati of hinduism. actually bhagauti means bhagats. please read sukhmani sahib where guru sahib said; bhagauti bhagwant bhagte ka rang, tis bhagauti ki mat ootam hoye. guru gobind singh ji said earlier bhagatan ne akalpurakh nu simaraya phir guru nnak ne dhayaya. we must understand bhagat farid, bhagat kabir and naamdev ji born 200 years earlier then guru nanak sahib. we must understand har jug jug bhagat upaya. 10 sikh guruan ne akalpurakhdi bhagti ate shabad da gyan dridh karaya. osi gur nu jo shabad hai nanak ne dhayaya te aise ton angad bane. aih sab thayeen hoye sahaye. i am not saying these are last words but think before taking steps in haste- jarnail singh journalist
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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GURBANI cmae direct from the Creator..Akal Purakh..as Guru nanak ji stated..Jaisee meh aweh KHASAM KI BANI..tessrra karin GYAN ve Lalo....AS the Creators Bani comes ...it Brings GYAN..the LIGHT of His Brahm...and thats why our GURU is GYAN GURU..the SHABAD GURU.

THIS KHASAM KI BANI---the GURBANI in SGGS cannot be changed as it is PERFECT and COMPLETE on ALL COUNTS. Also it comes to us in its Original Form peeend by our GURUS and signed and sealed by them...no chnages..no additions. subtractions, adulterations,..not a single word can be changed as it is ALL accounted for in Guru Arjun Ji Sahibs Unparralleld Numbering System of recordign the Gurbani which was then follwoed to the Letter by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI when He added Guru teg bahadur Jis GURBANI into the SGGS and gave the GURGADEE in 1708.

THUS who who insinuate or suggest that the SGGS can be interefered with are baseless. It just CANNOT be done. NO SIKH worth his salt would even Dare suggest it..much less implement it.
Soem have tried...TEJA SINGH BHASSAURRIAH was one...he was excommunicated and stopped. His grandson recently begged forgiveness from Akal takhat for his grand-dad's mistake (But Teja Singh died without admitting his mistake as he was a stubborn man - and he died ALONE becasue all his friedns desertd him due tot hsi sacrilege. He Printed a Bir of SGGS MINUS the GURBANI of the BHAGATS, Bards and Sunder Ji - according to him..the Bhagats were low castes, the bards were muslims and sunderji was nonexistant child and his Ramkli Sadd was UNSIKH !!

The Second Group of people who tried to interfere with the Sanctity of the SGGS were the NAMDHAREES of BHAINI . Their "living Guru" declared that in order to complete as many as few thousand Sehaj Paaths of SGGS in the shortest time...the SGGS Bir was DISMANTLED and its PAGES were distributed among the snagat of Bhaini and each PATRA was supposed to be read continuously...this so called PATRA PAATH was secerly criticised by the Sikhs and was STOPPED as soon as word got out and the Dismantled Bir was REBOUND into One.

A new "trick" that has emerged recently was one in which some people got BOUND INTO ONE VOLUME..the SGGS and the DSM Granth. This is alleged to have happend a long time ago but the Huge Volume of both granths in one was only recently EXPOSED. This is SACRILEGE as the SGGS is GURU..and the dsm is NOT...so NOTHING ELSE can be BOUND to the GURU and Parkashed simultaneoulsy. The Akal takhat has been informed and they are expected to DISMANTLE and decouple the dsm granth from the SGGS and take further action to STOP such acts of Sacrilege. ONLY the SGGS is our GURU and has the RIGHT to GURGADEE and Parkash on the THRONE as ordained by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI in 1708. Guru Ji BOWED ONLY to SGGS ALONE. PERIOD.
 
Feb 7, 2008
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Writings of our gurus are Gurbani whether contained in Sri Guru Granth sahib or not? They are equally holy for a sikh.

There are numerous gutkas found still in punjab dating back to early eighteenth century that have both granths bound in one volume.Apart from that Bhai Mani Singh ji bound both granths in one volume.
 
Feb 7, 2008
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Writings of all Gurus is Gurbani and equally holy whether contained in Guru Granth sahib or not.

There are numerous gutkas of eigthteenth century in Punjab that have banis of both granths in them.Likewise Bhai mani singh's bir had both gRanths in one volume.
 
Re: Ardass changed..

this change in Ardas is made for the good and i dont think there is anything debatable on this..


Do you really think Hartej that whatsoever the banis our Guru Sahebans have left for us.. on which our path should be based (even 10% of it would be good) can be just reformatted just like anything?? jeez are u sure u belong to Khalsa Panth and Sikh Religion?? look at the "KAUR" spelling of urs.. its "Kaur" not "KOUR"... and if you are a fake girl acting as a sikh.. jeez leave this forum as soon as possible before we start a topic for u :D
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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There is NO " KANOURRA" in ENGLISH..lol....so KAUR..KOUR..KOR....CAUR..CORE..whatever goes BECAUSE ENGLISH DOESNT HAVE THE CORRECT PUNJABI KANNOURRA SIGN. period.

That is PURE LINGUISTICS.

2. On SPN..we DONT JUDGE anyone. Who is 10% sikh..99% Sikh..not even 0.0001 %Sikh..whatever...its all between the individual and his GURU/GOD/Akal Purakh !!

3. Is there a "Fake"/not fake" Meter to check ??...someones humanity..sikhi..or lack of thereof....? I havent heard of any such instrument..or have i missed something jios...???

Lets just discuss the IDEAS..not the POSTERS..please Jios.

Thanks.:welcome::welcome::welcome::ice::ice::ice:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Writings of our gurus are Gurbani whether contained in Sri Guru Granth sahib or not? They are equally holy for a sikh.

There are numerous gutkas found still in punjab dating back to early eighteenth century that have both granths bound in one volume.Apart from that Bhai Mani Singh ji bound both granths in one volume.


Respected Inder Singh Ji,

I am astounded...........GUTKAS are NOT GRANTHS. How could a GUTKA have BOTH "GRANTHS"...??? do you mean Banis... ?? and Panj Granthi pothis etc. I use the Das Granthi pothi to teach....that is bani of GGS.

2. Having BANIS in a GUTKA.....is different..after all GUTKAS are NOT "GURU"....Would anyone dare to Parkash a GUTKA ?? in place of SGGS ?? i dotn think so.

3. BINDING the SGGS together with dsm granth is NOT what GURU GOBIND SINGH JI DID in 1708. The BIR that Guru Ji Bowed to and Gave Gurgadee was JUST the SGGS ONLY.
 
My chacha ji lives in Finland from past 20 years. He is one of the Known Sikh Business man there in Helsinki among the Indians.
I haven't received a mail or reply to one of the forwarded mails n article of the ardaas being changed in the Gurudwara sahib of Helsinki. However I guess I might be able to help out this topic more from the word I will get from him like whats the response from the side of Mr. Manjeet Singh, the lead member of the Gurudwara Committee of Helsinki. I am keeping my fingers cross for today to get a response from him.
 

spnadmin

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Singhjaskaran ji

Thank you for offering to look more deeply into this matter. There is almost nothing about Sikhs in Finland's diaspora. Keep us posted when you find out.
 
Feb 7, 2008
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Giani ji

Though Gutkas are not granths but they contain banis. Any document that contains bani is respected by sikhs.

The issue under discussion is deliberate change of ardas and Dohra by some in finland. It is a violation of sikh rehat maryada. Let us focus on the topic instead of diverting discussion to other issues.
 
Feb 7, 2008
529
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My chacha ji lives in Finland from past 20 years. He is one of the Known Sikh Business man there in Helsinki among the Indians.
I haven't received a mail or reply to one of the forwarded mails n article of the ardaas being changed in the Gurudwara sahib of Helsinki. However I guess I might be able to help out this topic more from the word I will get from him like whats the response from the side of Mr. Manjeet Singh, the lead member of the Gurudwara Committee of Helsinki. I am keeping my fingers cross for today to get a response from him.
The party in question and spokesman are notorious to spread false news to gain attention. It is quite possible that there was a meeting in some of their supporter's home where this was decided. Persons like Inder Ghagha are not allowed to particpate in Gurudwaras in USA because of their anti panth and anti gurmat activities.

This is what one memeber from Finland writes on another site
harsimran kaur

I'm from Finland and i was surprised to read this. As far as i know there's only one Gurdwara sahib in Finland and at least last sunday they were still saying the ardaas normally.. so this seems weird.. i hope it's not true.
 
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