- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
Your statement is not correct. There is no such rule in terms.
Ardaas Changed
- Status
Your statement is not correct. There is no such rule in terms.
Ajmer Singh ji,
Guru Fateh.
First of all I want to thank you for restarting our interaction in a civilsed manner. Gurmat ideals laid by our Gurus demand that from us.
You write:
I think you have missed all my posts before. I always emphasised that fact first and foremost.
I beg to disagree with you on your above speculative statement. In order for me not to be repetitive, please read all my posts in this thread. Once again, NO ONE knows who wrote this book we call Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how much we mortals and so called scholars try to twist it. In my opinion when we give this name to the Granth then we are not only insulting SGGS, the Gurmat concept of Sikhi but also ALL our Gurus including our 10th Guru. This claim by some makes Guru Gobind Singh seem arrogant when we know he was totally to the contrary. So let us stop insulting our Gurus just because we are stubborn and arrogant enough to second guess them.
Your above statement is very interesting and full of holes and contradictory at times. Let me take your part of the argument and agree with you for the sake of this lively interaction which is the learning process for all Sikhs. According to you, Inder Singh and others, Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji despite the fact there is no evidence of that which can only come from our 10th Guru.
1.So if it is written by our 10th Guru then why would his Gurbani have a lower status?
2. How is Guru Gobind Singh not equal to other Gurus?
3. Why are you and your ilk degrading our 10th Guru's Gurbani as if it were inferior than the one in SGGS?
4. Why can't we give the equal status if Guru Gobind Singh ji is equal to all our other 9 Gurus?
5. What is wrong with that? Please explain.
Secondly, we do not worship SGGS. People worship idols. SGGS is no idol nor does Sikhi believe or practice idol worshipping.
Allow me to indulge you a bit deeper in this matter.
We chant Gurbani from SGGS loudly because it is written in the poetic and musical form. This was a great idea by our visionary Gurus. By chanting and singing Gurbani loudly, one liberates oneself from the self created cocoons, one breaks the walls one has constructed around him/her. One bursts out of the self made bubble. Once this is done then our visionary Gurus tell us to study Gurbani so that we can understand it, put it into practice so that it can become our second nature which in result will help us elevate our level of normalcy. By understanding and then putting Gurbani into practice,what seemed impossible yesterday, becomes probable today and then with HIS grace- Nadar-, it ought to become a piece of cake the next day. So a Sikh is not a worshipper but a seeker. The name says that.
Banned by whom? ( please read Gyani Jarnail Singh ji's post #126 on this context).
By reciting you mean parroting? We are bound by nothing but Gurbani which is in SGGS and it says ," Gaviei sunhiei,munn Rakhiei Bhao". Here reciting is just one of the 4 step process. So please elaborate when you say "bound to just recite". Reciting does nothing but make us good parrots and we hope that by parroting Gurbani we may get a brighter plummage one day. Nothing more.
You have echoed exactly my sentiments that I have mentioned repeatedly in my posts.
Your first statement is full of holes and contradictory, once again. I do not know if he HAD to do re-write SGGS which shows someone forced him to do something which is wrong and impossible because no one can force our Gurus to do anything. Yes, He knew and understood the meanings of the whole SGGS by heart and that is the fact. So, he was not forced to do anything. Ik Ong Kaar had etched the whole SGGS on his heart and soul.
Secondly, why would he have to separate his writings from SGGS? What is the reason behind it unless we claim our 10th Guru to be self centered egotisitic person which he was NOT?
Inder Singh ji has not been able to respond to that. I hope you can with total honesty. Ok, the Chaupai(860) does mention the date but that is irrelvant. I have no idea whether you have read the Dasam Granth or not. I do give the benefit of the doubt to others unlike some in here. Let me assume that you have studied Dasam Granth and understand it well. Do you know there are lots of verses that are sexually explicit which have nothing to do with the concept of Sikhi laid by our Gurus in SGGS?
Certified by whom? for what? As mentioned before the only certification we need is what is in SGGS. You started your post agreeing with that and now you are drifting away. One wonders why this shift!
Here you have done it again and it is funny to say the least. Let me repeat something which I have mentioned before. Demeaning and insulting someone because he/she disagrees with you is not the Sikhi way. It shows more about the person who is doing that then the one the remark is made to.
All this sounds nice but it is full of holes. It is all hearsay. Nothing is original. I have heard the same story again and again and when people like me disagree with it, the other side becomes abusive and offensive which shows they want to impose their thinking unto others, one more anti Gurmat trait. Sorry to disappoint you.
Let us study Gurbani from SGGS. Please share any Shabad from SGGS that you idenify with and explain its meaning in your own words so all of us can benefit from it.
I hope to learn a lot from your Gurmat wisdom.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
Guru Fateh.
First of all I want to thank you for restarting our interaction in a civilsed manner. Gurmat ideals laid by our Gurus demand that from us.
You write:
I think you have missed all my posts before. I always emphasised that fact first and foremost.
I beg to disagree with you on your above speculative statement. In order for me not to be repetitive, please read all my posts in this thread. Once again, NO ONE knows who wrote this book we call Dasam Granth and that is the fact no matter how much we mortals and so called scholars try to twist it. In my opinion when we give this name to the Granth then we are not only insulting SGGS, the Gurmat concept of Sikhi but also ALL our Gurus including our 10th Guru. This claim by some makes Guru Gobind Singh seem arrogant when we know he was totally to the contrary. So let us stop insulting our Gurus just because we are stubborn and arrogant enough to second guess them.
Your above statement is very interesting and full of holes and contradictory at times. Let me take your part of the argument and agree with you for the sake of this lively interaction which is the learning process for all Sikhs. According to you, Inder Singh and others, Dasam Granth is written by Guru Gobind Singh ji despite the fact there is no evidence of that which can only come from our 10th Guru.
1.So if it is written by our 10th Guru then why would his Gurbani have a lower status?
2. How is Guru Gobind Singh not equal to other Gurus?
3. Why are you and your ilk degrading our 10th Guru's Gurbani as if it were inferior than the one in SGGS?
4. Why can't we give the equal status if Guru Gobind Singh ji is equal to all our other 9 Gurus?
5. What is wrong with that? Please explain.
Secondly, we do not worship SGGS. People worship idols. SGGS is no idol nor does Sikhi believe or practice idol worshipping.
Allow me to indulge you a bit deeper in this matter.
We chant Gurbani from SGGS loudly because it is written in the poetic and musical form. This was a great idea by our visionary Gurus. By chanting and singing Gurbani loudly, one liberates oneself from the self created cocoons, one breaks the walls one has constructed around him/her. One bursts out of the self made bubble. Once this is done then our visionary Gurus tell us to study Gurbani so that we can understand it, put it into practice so that it can become our second nature which in result will help us elevate our level of normalcy. By understanding and then putting Gurbani into practice,what seemed impossible yesterday, becomes probable today and then with HIS grace- Nadar-, it ought to become a piece of cake the next day. So a Sikh is not a worshipper but a seeker. The name says that.
Banned by whom? ( please read Gyani Jarnail Singh ji's post #126 on this context).
By reciting you mean parroting? We are bound by nothing but Gurbani which is in SGGS and it says ," Gaviei sunhiei,munn Rakhiei Bhao". Here reciting is just one of the 4 step process. So please elaborate when you say "bound to just recite". Reciting does nothing but make us good parrots and we hope that by parroting Gurbani we may get a brighter plummage one day. Nothing more.
You have echoed exactly my sentiments that I have mentioned repeatedly in my posts.
Your first statement is full of holes and contradictory, once again. I do not know if he HAD to do re-write SGGS which shows someone forced him to do something which is wrong and impossible because no one can force our Gurus to do anything. Yes, He knew and understood the meanings of the whole SGGS by heart and that is the fact. So, he was not forced to do anything. Ik Ong Kaar had etched the whole SGGS on his heart and soul.
Secondly, why would he have to separate his writings from SGGS? What is the reason behind it unless we claim our 10th Guru to be self centered egotisitic person which he was NOT?
Inder Singh ji has not been able to respond to that. I hope you can with total honesty. Ok, the Chaupai(860) does mention the date but that is irrelvant. I have no idea whether you have read the Dasam Granth or not. I do give the benefit of the doubt to others unlike some in here. Let me assume that you have studied Dasam Granth and understand it well. Do you know there are lots of verses that are sexually explicit which have nothing to do with the concept of Sikhi laid by our Gurus in SGGS?
Certified by whom? for what? As mentioned before the only certification we need is what is in SGGS. You started your post agreeing with that and now you are drifting away. One wonders why this shift!
Here you have done it again and it is funny to say the least. Let me repeat something which I have mentioned before. Demeaning and insulting someone because he/she disagrees with you is not the Sikhi way. It shows more about the person who is doing that then the one the remark is made to.
See again:--
Contents from the rare handwritten beerh of Sri Dasam Granth compiled in 1755 Bikrami (1698 A.D.), one year before the formation of Khalsa. The date when this historic beerh was compiled is given in the introductory paragraph. This beerh is preserved at Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. It is noteworthy that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib’s bani "Zafarnamah" which was written in 1704 A.D., six years after this beerh was compiled, does not feature in this beerh. Also noteworthy is the name of the granth that appears on the top, “Patshah Dasven Ju Ka Granth” (The Granth of the Tenth Master).
The year mentioned on this handwritten beerh is also significant because Bhai Kesar Singh Chibber too in Bansavalinama records that Guru Gobind Singh Sahib had himself compiled the Granth in 1755 Bikrami (1698 A.D.), and this Chhota Granth[1] was very dear to him. Evidently that this is one of the oldest beerhs which Guru Sahib himself compiled before the formation of the Khalsa. Later compilations of the complete banees of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib is attributed to Bhai Mani Singh.
ਛੋਟਾ ਗਰੰਥ ਜੀ ਜਨਮੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ।
ਸੰਮਤ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ।
ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਹਥੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਖਿਡਾਇਆ।
ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ, 'ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ (ਭਾਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ) ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ'।
ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, 'ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਖੇਡ ਹੈ।'
ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਦ।
ਸੋ ਦੋਨੋ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰ ਜਾਨੋ।
ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਟਕੇ ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤਰ ਪੋਤਰੇ ਕਿਰ ਪਛਾਨੋ
(ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਕੇਸਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਛਿੱਬਰ) [1] Kesar Singh Chibber calls the granth as Chotta Granth (small granth) in relation to the status of Sri Guru Granth Sahib
All this sounds nice but it is full of holes. It is all hearsay. Nothing is original. I have heard the same story again and again and when people like me disagree with it, the other side becomes abusive and offensive which shows they want to impose their thinking unto others, one more anti Gurmat trait. Sorry to disappoint you.
Let us study Gurbani from SGGS. Please share any Shabad from SGGS that you idenify with and explain its meaning in your own words so all of us can benefit from it.
I hope to learn a lot from your Gurmat wisdom.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
Ajmer singh Randhawa
SPNer
S. Tejwant Singh ji , Gur fateh !!
You have raised many questions,!-I just mentioned worship which doesn't mean to Aarti. In our faith in simple words i did mention it but meant the same as you have described. Guru ji has sais, "Dithe mukat na hovai jichar shabad na kare vichar," So to recite Gurbaani and than go through the meanings to know what Guru ji is saying-does matter. For those people who recite like parrots, Guruji has cautioned that"Paath parey na bujayi pekhi bharam bhulaye." The last quotient is,"Satguru poora bhetiye bhai Sabad milaawanhaar."
2- I think the answer in detail to the name of Dasam Granth is just given in this post again by S. Inder singh ji. He has left no loop hole of suspence with his research. I appreciate his efforts. I can't give any details more than him but i do agree with him. I don't raise kintu-parantu because by the grace of Waheguru ji, i can link the missing thread myself.
3-Guru Gobind Singh ji's Baani can never be of low grade. For your kind information He created Khalsa from submissive class or the dead nation.So he chanted these Baanis to remind them of the past of their ancestors, to inspire them from their forgotten past and to inspire a new spirit of bravery by saying,"Ab jujhan ko daao." The blood in their veins was flown again with Bir ras composed Baanis.
Any conclusion to search Guru's vision of future, you will have to go back 300 years back and try to understand the difficulties faced by a common person of Mogul raj. Without doing that you even can't describe the reason to wear 5k, i am sure.
4-We can't give the equql status because the baanis in Dasam Granth was composed by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself but the Baani of his father he had added in Guru Granth Sahab ji and than adding his own Baani again could put him equal to his father who gave the supreme sacrifice. It was his politeness that he better decided to keep distance though being a Guru. He was the only Guru who presented the idea of AAPE GUR_CHELA. No other such example in history is available.
5- You are well aware of the fact that Guru ji was denied to handover the original script of Guru Granth Sahab ji which is still at Kartarpur and it is not given the status of Guru though it is sighned by Guru Arjan Dev ji himself. He was denied with a remark that if he was Guru , he could write it himself. So Guru ji got it re-written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and Baba Deep Singh ji. This is real beer which has the honor of being sworn in as Guru. Any doubt ?
If you deny the certification of Bhai Mani Singh ji, than either you are a fool or trying to brain wash the ignorant people by your lengthy discussions. Please avoid negativity. aad0002 In Hindi, people says, "Pancho ki baat sir maathe par Parnala wahin bahega." Do we need to have this translated? Or better to leave it as is?????
Kala Afgana, Gyani Jarnail Singh and you are deleted (Please debate issues not personalities) .
Waheguru may bless you real Sumat and Sikhi to enlighten the people deleted (Please debate issues not personalities).
It is important to observe the forum rules to stick to the issues and to avoid spreading negativity. Inline deletions are not the best approach to calm the waters. Please rather abide by our rules. Thank you: aad002
You have raised many questions,!-I just mentioned worship which doesn't mean to Aarti. In our faith in simple words i did mention it but meant the same as you have described. Guru ji has sais, "Dithe mukat na hovai jichar shabad na kare vichar," So to recite Gurbaani and than go through the meanings to know what Guru ji is saying-does matter. For those people who recite like parrots, Guruji has cautioned that"Paath parey na bujayi pekhi bharam bhulaye." The last quotient is,"Satguru poora bhetiye bhai Sabad milaawanhaar."
2- I think the answer in detail to the name of Dasam Granth is just given in this post again by S. Inder singh ji. He has left no loop hole of suspence with his research. I appreciate his efforts. I can't give any details more than him but i do agree with him. I don't raise kintu-parantu because by the grace of Waheguru ji, i can link the missing thread myself.
3-Guru Gobind Singh ji's Baani can never be of low grade. For your kind information He created Khalsa from submissive class or the dead nation.So he chanted these Baanis to remind them of the past of their ancestors, to inspire them from their forgotten past and to inspire a new spirit of bravery by saying,"Ab jujhan ko daao." The blood in their veins was flown again with Bir ras composed Baanis.
Any conclusion to search Guru's vision of future, you will have to go back 300 years back and try to understand the difficulties faced by a common person of Mogul raj. Without doing that you even can't describe the reason to wear 5k, i am sure.
4-We can't give the equql status because the baanis in Dasam Granth was composed by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself but the Baani of his father he had added in Guru Granth Sahab ji and than adding his own Baani again could put him equal to his father who gave the supreme sacrifice. It was his politeness that he better decided to keep distance though being a Guru. He was the only Guru who presented the idea of AAPE GUR_CHELA. No other such example in history is available.
5- You are well aware of the fact that Guru ji was denied to handover the original script of Guru Granth Sahab ji which is still at Kartarpur and it is not given the status of Guru though it is sighned by Guru Arjan Dev ji himself. He was denied with a remark that if he was Guru , he could write it himself. So Guru ji got it re-written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and Baba Deep Singh ji. This is real beer which has the honor of being sworn in as Guru. Any doubt ?
If you deny the certification of Bhai Mani Singh ji, than either you are a fool or trying to brain wash the ignorant people by your lengthy discussions. Please avoid negativity. aad0002 In Hindi, people says, "Pancho ki baat sir maathe par Parnala wahin bahega." Do we need to have this translated? Or better to leave it as is?????
Kala Afgana, Gyani Jarnail Singh and you are deleted (Please debate issues not personalities) .
Waheguru may bless you real Sumat and Sikhi to enlighten the people deleted (Please debate issues not personalities).
It is important to observe the forum rules to stick to the issues and to avoid spreading negativity. Inline deletions are not the best approach to calm the waters. Please rather abide by our rules. Thank you: aad002
Last edited by a moderator:
siana sikh
SPNer
- May 29, 2009
- 1
- 0
Hey am surprised and shocked that ardass is changed. To best of my knowledge tenth guru created ardass upto tribute to ninth guru "tegh bahudaur simriye ghar nu nidh ave dhaye" rest was created by wise devoted sikhs to seek forgiveness for mistakes during reciital of gurbani, remembeng sacrifices and paying tributes to those whomade sac:whisling:rifices and seeking love of God and welfare of all. there is no objection o addition of bhagat names but how come change of "pritham akal purakh simraye..." what is this going on. Ardass by tenth guru is perfect one bani is without mistakes why because gurbani is the priase of lord how to be good devotee what is true guru this is all bani and bani is not story of life of any great person i do not know why people are doing this instead of educating sikhs about various social evils like casetism i think these people have more energy to be used for negative things
Re: Moved to Leaders until we see eye to eye with Inder Singh ji
Clarification: Thank you Inder Singh Ji for pointing out to an important omission on SPN administration's part. The rules were definitely there at place. Recently, we did upgrade the network forums for a latest version and that part was inadvertently removed.
Posting rules are now visible and enforced at following two places in red font:
1. While starting a new topic
2. Terms of Service at each page at the footer navigation bar.
Thank you for your patience and coordination.
Warm regards
Clarification: Thank you Inder Singh Ji for pointing out to an important omission on SPN administration's part. The rules were definitely there at place. Recently, we did upgrade the network forums for a latest version and that part was inadvertently removed.
Posting rules are now visible and enforced at following two places in red font:
1. While starting a new topic
2. Terms of Service at each page at the footer navigation bar.
Thank you for your patience and coordination.
Warm regards
- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
Dasam granth manuscripts have hand written pages of Guru Gobind singh sahib,his signature and date of compilation. It is an irony that some people ignore all this and go on repeating their arguements like a parrot. If they are asked about the reference from sikh history to support their claim, they have nothing to show us. Mere rhetorics in the absence of any supporting documents is just a personal opinion and carry no value.
Dasam granth is more open in denouncing Hindu devi and devtas. It is obvious that such people are supporting the line of anti sikh Hindus who want this scripture to be disputed as it gives sikhs their identity.
The following is a good article by Piara singh padam dealing with authenticity of Dasam granth
uthenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib
Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.
An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:
Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.
The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and
Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:
ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗੌਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ,
ਅਵਰਿ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ॥2491॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)
I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.
Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:
ਮੈਂ ਨਾ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਉਂ। ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਧਿਆਊਂ।
ਕਾਨਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ। ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋ॥434॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)
I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434.
A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:
ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ
ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ।
ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ
ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥863॥
O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions.
The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:
ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੀ, ਪੈਸਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ।
ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 16)
(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone?
Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:
ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ, ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ
ਪੂਤ! ਯਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਤੋਹਿ, ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟਿ ਥਾਰੇ,
ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਨੀਤ ਬਢਈਅਹੁ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਈਅਹੂ॥51॥
Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਸਵ ਭਗ ਪਾਏ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਾਲੰਕ ਲਗਾਏ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਹੇਤੁ, ਸੀਸ 'ਦਸ ਸੀਸ ਗਵਾਯੋ
ਹੋ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੈਹਤੁ, ਕਟਕ ਕਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਘਾਯੋ॥42॥ (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 21)
Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs.
ਜਨਨਿ ਜਠਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਆਇ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ
ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਕੋ ਪਾਇ, ਕਹਹਿ ਹਮ ਭੋਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ
ਥੂਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਟਿ, ਕਹਿਤ ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਯੋ
ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਜਨਮ, ਬਿਨਾ ਜਸਦੀਸ਼ ਗਵਾਯੋ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 81)
One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God.
These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:
The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.
All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.
The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:
ਅਬ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। (ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ)
Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation.
and
ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ। ਚੁਨਿ ਚੁਨਿ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ। (ਚੌਪਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ)
Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them.
The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.
There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.
It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:
ਦੁਹੂੰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਈ। ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਕੰਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸੋਈ'। (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੰਘ)
Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)
It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.
The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.
Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.
We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.
(Translated from ‘ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ’ Courtesy Panthic Weekly, A Khalsa Press Publication)
Dasam granth is more open in denouncing Hindu devi and devtas. It is obvious that such people are supporting the line of anti sikh Hindus who want this scripture to be disputed as it gives sikhs their identity.
The following is a good article by Piara singh padam dealing with authenticity of Dasam granth
uthenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib
Prof. Piara Singh Padam
Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.
An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:
Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.
The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and
Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:
ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗੌਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ,
ਅਵਰਿ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ॥2491॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)
I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.
Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:
ਮੈਂ ਨਾ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਉਂ। ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਧਿਆਊਂ।
ਕਾਨਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ। ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋ॥434॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)
I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434.
A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:
ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ
ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ।
ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ
ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥863॥
O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions.
The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:
ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੀ, ਪੈਸਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ।
ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 16)
(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone?
Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:
ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ, ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ
ਪੂਤ! ਯਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਤੋਹਿ, ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟਿ ਥਾਰੇ,
ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਨੀਤ ਬਢਈਅਹੁ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਈਅਹੂ॥51॥
Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਸਵ ਭਗ ਪਾਏ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਾਲੰਕ ਲਗਾਏ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਹੇਤੁ, ਸੀਸ 'ਦਸ ਸੀਸ ਗਵਾਯੋ
ਹੋ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੈਹਤੁ, ਕਟਕ ਕਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਘਾਯੋ॥42॥ (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 21)
Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs.
ਜਨਨਿ ਜਠਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਆਇ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ
ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਕੋ ਪਾਇ, ਕਹਹਿ ਹਮ ਭੋਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ
ਥੂਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਟਿ, ਕਹਿਤ ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਯੋ
ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਜਨਮ, ਬਿਨਾ ਜਸਦੀਸ਼ ਗਵਾਯੋ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 81)
One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God.
These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:
The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.
All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.
The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:
ਅਬ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। (ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ)
Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation.
and
ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ। ਚੁਨਿ ਚੁਨਿ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ। (ਚੌਪਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ)
Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them.
The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.
There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.
It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:
ਦੁਹੂੰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਈ। ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਕੰਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸੋਈ'। (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੰਘ)
Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)
It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.
The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.
Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.
We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.
(Translated from ‘ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ’ Courtesy Panthic Weekly, A Khalsa Press Publication)
Tejwant Ji,
Speculation seems the order of the day...yours is just a minor one..others are speculating about huge pothis, dates, even Guru Sahibs intentions and what not....and pushing these speculations down others throats..and btw your "speculation" has more merit (logical) while the others have self serving self sucking holes the size of Black Holes seen by Hubble !!...:crazy::crazy:.
- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
These are no speculations. These are facts about dasam granth whose banis were recited during Khalsa initiation in 1699. People need to read their history in proper before making baseless charges against the scripture of khalsa panth.
- Feb 7, 2008
- 529
- 83
Kala afghhana is an excommunicated person from sikh panth. People are on record praising him here. I hope we censor those posts also and do not resort to selective censorship.
1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?
2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS?
3. How can one stop somone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?
Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".
How can one ex-communicate Gobind?
Perhaps only those who are drenched in the pool of Me-ism rather than the Amrit pool of One-ism.
Something to ponder about.
Last but not the least ex-communication, whatever it means in the mind of those who exert their own power unto others in the name of Sikhi contradicts the concept of 4 doors of Harmandir sahib.
As they say when people make Sikhi into a blind faith,they themselves become blind to the Gurmat ideals of SGGS.
Let us never forget that SGGS is our only and ultimate GURU and all decisions should be based on its teachings.
Tejwant Singh
Inder Singh ji
Moderation note: We are not going back to the past on this one. Any thing about Kala Afghana will go into a separate thread because it is off topic. This is the Ardaas Changed thread. In addition -- as long as forum members abide with forum rules, discussions of Kala Afghana will not be censored. Talking about a point of view is not the same thing as advocating for that point of view. How else are people supposed to obtain informed opinions? Not if they are permitted access only to those things that meet with this or that spokesman's approval. If that were the way we ran this forum, there would be those members who would forbid discussion of Dasam Granth. But we encourage discussion of Dasam Granth. We discourage embargoes of timely and relevant material. That kind of action is the work of government intelligence services where everything is hush hush and secret secret.
Now since I must moderate this thread I will not be able to be a participant in it any longer. This saddens me. Please be assured that I will mderate.
Thanks,
Antonia
Moderation note: We are not going back to the past on this one. Any thing about Kala Afghana will go into a separate thread because it is off topic. This is the Ardaas Changed thread. In addition -- as long as forum members abide with forum rules, discussions of Kala Afghana will not be censored. Talking about a point of view is not the same thing as advocating for that point of view. How else are people supposed to obtain informed opinions? Not if they are permitted access only to those things that meet with this or that spokesman's approval. If that were the way we ran this forum, there would be those members who would forbid discussion of Dasam Granth. But we encourage discussion of Dasam Granth. We discourage embargoes of timely and relevant material. That kind of action is the work of government intelligence services where everything is hush hush and secret secret.
Now since I must moderate this thread I will not be able to be a participant in it any longer. This saddens me. Please be assured that I will mderate.
Thanks,
Antonia
Guru Paiyario jios,
"Praise" and "knowledge" are two different things.
IF simply "knowledge" about what so and so did or wanted to do or wrote....is stated thats not praise.Even internet "Chuvarkeh" ( tarditionally in Punajb there used to be 4 page pamphlets called chauvarkehs) like "P****** weekly" print articles and news views etc and the Note" from the Editor says..PW/S***S...etc etc doesn't necessarily agree with the views of this or that writer...in fact SPN also has the same policy - each poster is responsible for his own views and they dont necessarily have to be that of the Management/Owners/Admin of SPN.
Derogatory remarks, nindiya, character assasination etc and vulgarity in language..such as deriding soemone just for being a "mere driver"...( a huge proportion of Punjabi Sikhs in the WEST are DRIVERS by profession...so pointing out someones occupation is also alienating so many others in the same line of work is self defeating)..so many of the "sants" going around giving lectures were yesterdays Garrvaiis or washers of their Gadeedar sants..so are we to take them lightly?? Someone having been a policeman, a driver, a garrvahhi etc has nothing to do with his personal life/status/knowledge/gursikhi jeewan etc. A Gursikh ex-Driver is much much better than a University Professor who has sold his soul to anti-sikh forcves like teh RSS etc..and is using his academic post and status to jarreehheen teil ( place oil on roots - way to kill a plant) of Sikhi/Gurmatt Bohhrr TREE..
Here on SPN we endeavour to discuss IDEAS only and leave the personalities out ( at the DOOR). Non Sikhs too are members and they are here to LEARN about SGGS/Gurmatt and Sikhi....and we should endeavour to SHARE our KNOWLEDGE. PERIOD.:welcome::welcome::welcome:
"Praise" and "knowledge" are two different things.
IF simply "knowledge" about what so and so did or wanted to do or wrote....is stated thats not praise.Even internet "Chuvarkeh" ( tarditionally in Punajb there used to be 4 page pamphlets called chauvarkehs) like "P****** weekly" print articles and news views etc and the Note" from the Editor says..PW/S***S...etc etc doesn't necessarily agree with the views of this or that writer...in fact SPN also has the same policy - each poster is responsible for his own views and they dont necessarily have to be that of the Management/Owners/Admin of SPN.
Derogatory remarks, nindiya, character assasination etc and vulgarity in language..such as deriding soemone just for being a "mere driver"...( a huge proportion of Punjabi Sikhs in the WEST are DRIVERS by profession...so pointing out someones occupation is also alienating so many others in the same line of work is self defeating)..so many of the "sants" going around giving lectures were yesterdays Garrvaiis or washers of their Gadeedar sants..so are we to take them lightly?? Someone having been a policeman, a driver, a garrvahhi etc has nothing to do with his personal life/status/knowledge/gursikhi jeewan etc. A Gursikh ex-Driver is much much better than a University Professor who has sold his soul to anti-sikh forcves like teh RSS etc..and is using his academic post and status to jarreehheen teil ( place oil on roots - way to kill a plant) of Sikhi/Gurmatt Bohhrr TREE..
Here on SPN we endeavour to discuss IDEAS only and leave the personalities out ( at the DOOR). Non Sikhs too are members and they are here to LEARN about SGGS/Gurmatt and Sikhi....and we should endeavour to SHARE our KNOWLEDGE. PERIOD.:welcome::welcome::welcome:
- Feb 7, 2008
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DELETED
Stick to the Topic and Answer the Questions.
That statement is untrue. Some documents do, others don't. Dasam Granth is a collection of many documents which have been called Dasam Granth. Please furnish your evidence that all of Dasam Granth is penned in the 10th Masters hand?
Please also narrate the history of Anandpur Sahib and how the Dasam Granth was compiled?
Also DO NOT post from Panthic Weekly. That is an unreliable source penned by some very dark hearted individuals.
- Feb 7, 2008
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please do not make accusations without proof
- Feb 7, 2008
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Anthonia ji
I wrote that do not indulge in selective censoring. If kala afghana writes on kissa of heer ranjha( A punjabi folk lore) his personal conduct will not come in picture. Since he chose to write negatively about sikh scriptures,ethos and history it is natural that his conduct will come in picture for review. Gurbani says
Avr aupdysY Awip n krY ]
avar oupadhaesai aap n karai ||
One who does not practice what he preaches to others,
If you allow his praise here it is natural that you should allow news about his personal misconduct also so that sangat know what type of person was selected to tarnish sikh history and divide sikhs.
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Read all posts first and you will know dasam granth beers have pages handwritten by tenth master.These are called khas patras.
If in doubt ask gurinder singh Mann of Leister. he may show you in person if you are so eager.
The articles are written by eminent researcher Piara singh padam. What is wrong in posting these.In matters of sikh history personal likings do not count.
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There are manuscripts from 1697b and 1698. Read all posts first before asking a question.
Please answer the questions. Please cite sources with ISBN numbers that confirm what you are saying. I don't want references to Bhai, or places, but actual studies that demonstrate this.
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