Ashamed To Be Sikh

[Seeker9]

I just had a quick look at the SPN Forum rules and came across this text in bold red font:

**Gurfateh Ji, SPN is a unique platform, where you can indulge in scholarly debates on virtually every issue. It is very important to understand and bear in mind that topics/posts/comments made by any member do not reflect upon the ideology of SikhPhilosophy.Net (Sikh Philosophy Network). If any particular message from a member is not removed then that does not mean that we support it. This means you have the equal opportunity of countering the argument in an authoritative manner. Religion and philosophy are general but unique for each person's understanding and progress. If you disagree, simply accept the differences and ask for information you may not know.

Please Discuss the Issues not the Personalities debating the Issues. Thank you. *

This has been an interesting thread but I wonder if we have scared away the original poster without taking the opportunity to increase his knowledge and understanding from all the learned individuals who post on SPN?

I know this may sound like a u-turn having myself posted this recently:

MY warning to wftw is be-carefull many are sharpening their daggers.

Hmmnn...so everyone should agree without debate and expressing alternative viewpoints??? Looking back on this thread, it is clear to me that the majority of posters disagree with the original poster of this thread....those people have as much right to do so as WTWF has to raise concerns...and it has been a very interesting thread so I would thank (again as I did in my first reply) WTWF for starting this discussion

It's good to have a debate and respond to issues raised
I also appreciate these issues can be emotive for some
I just think some of the replies I have seen are more likely to scare than inform.....

I hope I have not offended anyone by saying this

 

[spnadmin]

Seeker9 ji

You raise interesting questions as usual. This issue is a continuing moderation concern. And it is not easy to draw lines in the sand either.

The most fundamental rule to follow is also not easy to enforce and that is that open insults and verbal abuse are not acceptable. "Sharpening daggers" was not intended as I read it as a material threat, but a heads-up that there would be sharp disagreement.

Sharp disagreement is not a violation of forum rules. Forums would be very boring without it. The dilemmas lies in our perceptions. Some individuals are personally "insulted" by anyone who disagrees with them. It is also impossible for anyone else to know the true state of mind of someone else: Insulted? Afraid?

The other side of this coin. When someone pitches a hard b.all, as in "ashamed to be a Sikh," then it is self-serving to expect one's audience to be kind. Kindness is a virtue we can embrace for ourselves, not others. The forum, members and leaders, can only impose the rule of forum etiquette, which is very different from a rule of kindness. How do you impose a rule of kindness on other people?

wftw ji has already reported that he is busy with school assignments and will need time to reply. No reason not to believe him.

p/s Things about forum discussions that have always irritated me personally are "straw man" arguments and false dichotomies. I have to work very hard not to get riled by them. And have to spend a lot of time thinking of how to word a logical reply to an illogical complaint. That is one of my own challenges.

 

[seeker3k]

If wftw is ashamed of Sikhi then it is his problem not ours. Why are we upset with him?
I think I wrote it discuss the problem Sikhism is going through.

WE have to look inside of our self and see if we truer to Sikhism.

I could not find any where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib it is written and advised us to do the rituals. Can some one tell me what ritual Nanak told us to do?

Here are some of the rituals are being done to disgrace the Sikhism. Take a look if you guilty as the Hindus are.

Getting bhi ji to reading at the time of boy’s birth but no on girls birth.
Why do the reading at all?
If you have any guru’s picture at home?
Do you bow your head to the picture of guru?
Do you bow your head to Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
Get the reading done at the death of family member?
Get the path at and after the funeral?
If you do nit name of 5 bani?
If u get married by going around Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
If you got any of your kids got married the same way u got married?
If you do ardas and ask for the blessing or give you peace?
If you have asked for healing of the sickness?
If you do the jap of waheguru?
If you are sehsdhari and cover your head when u go to gurdwara? If you live in ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">north America and sit on floor to eat langar?
If you wear 6” dagger (sword)?
If you do the ardas before u eat food any where?
If you treat the Granth book as guru?
If you agree that book should put in heated room in winter n AC room in summer?
If you believe that book can hear your ardas?
If you think book can bless you?
If you think gurus had supernatural powers to change of nature’s course?


These are just the few of the things. F you are doing any then u need to look inside of you.

 

[Seeker9]

If wftw is ashamed of Sikhi then it is his problem not ours. Why are we upset with him?
I think I wrote it discuss the problem Sikhism is going through.
<?"urn:fficeffice" /><o> </o>
WE have to look inside of our self and see if we truer to Sikhism.
<o> </o>
I could not find any where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib it is written and advised us to do the rituals. Can some one tell me what ritual Nanak told us to do?
<o> </o>
Here are some of the rituals are being done to disgrace the Sikhism. Take a look if you guilty as the Hindus are.
<o> </o>
Getting bhi ji to reading at the time of boy’s birth but no on girls birth.
Why do the reading at all?
If you have any guru’s picture at home?
Do you bow your head to the picture of guru?
Do you bow your head to Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
Get the reading done at the death of family member?
Get the path at and after the funeral?
If you do nit name of 5 bani?
If u get married by going around Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
If you got any of your kids got married the same way u got married?
If you do ardas and ask for the blessing or give you peace?
If you have asked for healing of the sickness?
If you do the jap of waheguru?
If you are sehsdhari and cover your head when u go to gurdwara? If you live in <?xml::ffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">north America and sit on floor to eat langar?
If you wear 6” dagger (sword)?
If you do the ardas before u eat food any where?
If you treat the Granth book as guru?
If you agree that book should put in heated room in winter n AC room in summer?
If you believe that book can hear your ardas?
If you think book can bless you?
If you think gurus had supernatural powers to change of nature’s course?
<o> </o>
<o> </o>
These are just the few of the things. F you are doing any then u need to look inside of you.
<o> </o>

Dear Seeker3k Ji

The general observation about ritual is a good point to make

However, in terms of Sikhism and the little understanding I have gathered to date, it does appear a large number of items on your list are fundamental to Sikhism....

for example the great and deserved respect to be bestowed on a Guru, not a book incidentally which is the physical outward appearance, but the last Guru in the line of Gurus as revered by Sikhism

the articles of faith like the wearing of the 5ks or daily spiritual practice through prayer and meditation

Pictures in one's home is an easy target as it can be seen as a form of idolatry

But some of your other things less so...

Would you ask a Muslim or Jew to be one without eating ritually slaughtered Halal or Kosher meat? According to the requirements of their religion, could they still be regarded as being followers of that religion? Is it fair and reasonable for you to even ask them to do so?

I would therefore suggest you humbly reconsider some of the items on your list as it would appear you are asking Sikhs not to follow Sikhism, which would be an unusual thing to ask on this forum..........

 

[Seeker9]

p/s Things about forum discussions that have always irritated me personally are "straw man" arguments and false dichotomies. I have to work very hard not to get riled by them. And have to spend a lot of time thinking of how to word a logical reply to an illogical complaint. That is one of my own challenges.

Valid point...I daresay I may be guilty myself or even play Devils Advocate but all in the interests of getting more out of a discussion..... :blueturban:

 

[findingmyway]

If wftw is ashamed of Sikhi then it is his problem not ours. Why are we upset with him?
I think I wrote it discuss the problem Sikhism is going through.

WE have to look inside of our self and see if we truer to Sikhism.

Just to understand your viewpoint better, please can you clarify are you agnostic or sikh? Thanks.

I could not find any where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib it is written and advised us to do the rituals. Can some one tell me what ritual Nanak told us to do?
<o>

No because Sikhi is against rituals so it is important to make people aware of that point.

</o>

<o>Getting bhi ji to reading at the time of boy’s birth but no on girls birth.
Why do the reading at all?

</o>

This is the remnants of culture, and goes against Sikh teaching. Most Sikhs celebrate the birth of boys AND girls.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/32365-how-does-your-faith-group-celebrate.html

If you have any guru’s picture at home?
Do you bow your head to the picture of guru?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-gurus/14776-gurus-pictures-portraits.html

There is another real good thread which included a poll but I cant find it right now.

Do you bow your head to Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8879-matha-tekna.html

Get the reading done at the death of family member?
Get the path at and after the funeral?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/business-and-lifestyle/15451-death-of-a-sikh.html

The prayers carried out are to focus the mourners rather than pary for the dead person. They provide solace for those left behind and remind them they are not alone.

If you do nit name of 5 bani?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/spiritual-articles/31332-naam-japo-meditation-prayer-its-purpose.html

It is only a ritual if you are doing this without thought. However, it is like revisiong, the more you go over the bani, the more you will understand and the more you will follow the advice given.

If u get married by going around Sri Guru Granth Sahib?
If you got any of your kids got married the same way u got married?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...h-marriage-ceremony-anand-karaj-metaphor.html

If you do ardas and ask for the blessing or give you peace?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/28509-ardas-in-sikhism.html

If you have asked for healing of the sickness?

As in the above thread, this is done to help us focus our thoughts and we say our own desires. In the end all that happens is within God's hukam.

If you do the jap of waheguru?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/15034-vaheguru-is-gurmantar.html

It is one way of stilling the mind but is not the most important aspect in Sikhi. The ultimate aim is to follow the Guru's advice but simran helps the mind tune in for many.

If you are sehsdhari and cover your head when u go to gurdwara?

This is a mark of respect. You go to a church and take your hat off as respect!!

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/24440-what-reason-covering-ones-head-gurdwara.html

If you live in <st1lace w:st="on">north America and sit on floor to eat langar?

Sorry but whats the problem here? The point is everyone is on the same level so no-one ahs superiority.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/995-ok-have-langar-chairs-n-tables.html

If you wear 6” dagger (sword)?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/777-how-do-you-explain-what-kirpan-5.html

If you do the ardas before u eat food any where?

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/24510-ardas-over-food-purification-like-halal.html

If you treat the Granth book as guru?

I find this point quite insulting. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji IS our 11th Guru as dictated by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. the physical people or the physical book is not the Guru-more important is the knowledge/wisdom. The shabad is our Guru but we are humans so need a physical vehicle. This also stops the Gurbani being distorted and misused. It is not a living Guru but is accorded the respect equivalent to a living Guru. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the foundation of Sikhi. If you do not believe in Sikhi that is fine but do not insult those that do. For us the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our guide, teacher, support. Therefore it is much more than a book.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/295-need-of-siri-guru-granth-sahib.html

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/906-guru-granth-major-currents-sikh-scripture.html

If you agree that book should put in heated room in winter n AC room in summer?

This is for the comfort of the people reading/listening to Gurbani

If you believe that book can hear your ardas? If you think book can bless you?

Where did you get such a notion from???!

If you think gurus had supernatural powers to change of nature’s course?

Again where did you get such a notion from? If this were true then Guru Har Krishan Ji wouldn't have died of smallpox!!

These are just the few of the things. F you are doing any then u need to look inside of you.
<o>

I think you need to do more research and stop judging all Sikhs based on your limited personal experience and misinformation!
</o>

 

[Amandeep_barabanki]

well said WFTW,

All the religions lack something, the only difference is that in other religions people who question the religion are welcomed but in sikkism they r not.

[I will point out that as a student of religion, you have either deliberately or with a certain pre-reasonning omitted to say,[ based on the scientific evidence] ...that the koran was written 80 years AFTER Mohamad's death.While the bible even based on the old testament was written more than 90 years after Christ's.

At this point, may, I point out that the Guru Granth sahib was dictated and written by followers and scribes of the Gurus as the Gurus spoke the messages of God.NOT after and NOT before.Neither ANY of the shabads can be changed for as long long as the world lives on.]

Someone said this above, but the fact is that the Guru Granth Sahib written by the gurus was LOST in a river. And Guru Gobind Singh Ji got it written again.

Now, who knows if he didn't alter anything from the original book.

No other guru specified any limitations on Sikhs, but only Guru Gobind Singh Ji did; Y?

[There must be something here since so many have chosen death over conversion.]

Someone wrote this, now tell me dont we find people making such statements in every other religion. This topic needs facts to answer, not sentiments.

[As to not believing our history, next you'll be trying to convince me that Baba Deep Singh didn't really carry his head in one hand and fight with his sword in the other. Be careful. Be very, very careful.]

Sikhism curses hinduism because of the stupid incidents in their books(the holy books of hindus).

For instance, according to hindus the world is resting on a cows horns.

Guru Granth Sahib mentions this and many other statements and tells us that this cannnot be true as it is not sensible....

Then how can we talk about BABA DEEP SINGH carrying his own head fighting.

Is this sensible?

But people dont wanna listen anything against this.

Still they call their religion the best, although they do the same thing that others do,

They just praise their religion, without ever willing to find the truth based on facts..

This is a good topic for discussion raised.....

Thanx for sharing...

 

[seeker3k]

Dear Seeker3k Ji

The general observation about ritual is a good point to make

However, in terms of Sikhism and the little understanding I have gathered to date, it does appear a large number of items on your list are fundamental to Sikhism....

for example the great and deserved respect to be bestowed on a Guru, not a book incidentally which is the physical outward appearance, but the last Guru in the line of Gurus as revered by Sikhism

the articles of faith like the wearing of the 5ks or daily spiritual practice through prayer and meditation

Pictures in one's home is an easy target as it can be seen as a form of idolatry

But some of your other things less so...

Would you ask a Muslim or Jew to be one without eating ritually slaughtered Halal or Kosher meat? According to the requirements of their religion, could they still be regarded as being followers of that religion? Is it fair and reasonable for you to even ask them to do so?

I would therefore suggest you humbly reconsider some of the items on your list as it would appear you are asking Sikhs not to follow Sikhism, which would be an unusual thing to ask on this forum..........

Dear Seeker9

This is Sikh site. My questions are on the Sikhism rituals not on other religions. People always compare them self with who is higher then them? As in advertising Papsi compare with Coke. Coke is # 1 soft drink in the world.

By comparing Sikhs ism we are admitting that others are better then Sikhism.

I don’t think it is right.

I said it many times don’t put other religions down that doesn’t make Sikhism best.
Talk only about what is asked in the forum.

 

[Seeker9]

Dear Seeker9
fficeffice" />
This is Sikh site. My questions are on the Sikhism rituals not on other religions. People always compare them self with who is higher then them? As in advertising Papsi compare with Coke. Coke is # 1 soft drink in the world.
By comparing Sikhs ism we are admitting that others are better then Sikhism.

I don’t think it is right.

I said it many times don’t put other religions down that doesn’t make Sikhism best.
Talk only about what is asked in the forum.

Dear Seeker3k Ji

I stand by the brief references I made to other faiths to illustrate my point which I made as follows:

I would therefore suggest you humbly reconsider some of the items on your list as it would appear you are asking Sikhs not to follow Sikhism, which would be an unusual thing to ask on this forum..........

I will restate the point that some of the items on your extensive list are in fact requirements of the faith. The "Book" you refer to has the status of Guru.

I believe Findingmyway Ji provided a fairly comprehensive response to that effect..

You cannot re-write a religion
You cannot tell the devotees of that religion to turn their backs on key requirements and aspects of faith
By all means air your opinions but don't expect everyone to agree with them

 

[Seeker9]

Dear Amandeep Ji

Welcome to the debate!

I appreciate what you have said here about some of the responses and the perception of how people have reacted to the concerns raised by WFWT

May I draw your attention to the poll results attached to this thread....at present, it looks like 85% of voters are in favour of discussing these issues...so that does not reflect your comment:

that in other religions people who question the religion are welcomed but in sikkism they r not.

I am not qualified to comment on the point you raise about authorship of SGGSJ. It is an interesting point. I would still say that SGGSJ has a unique integrity in that it was written in the time of and by the hand of the Gurus.

That is fact

The fact that other texts in other faiths were written by different people some time after the events is also fact

Re this issue:

Then how can we talk about BABA DEEP SINGH carrying his own head fighting.

Is this sensible?

I hope Mai Ji won't mind if I state on her behalf that she was attempting to inject a bit of humour which I for one, appreciated!! If you search SPN, there is a complete thread where this event is discussed

So can we put this particular issue to rest?

They just praise their religion, without ever willing to find the truth based on facts..

This is a good topic for discussion raised.....

I can't help thinking this is a bit unfair. It is entirely natural for believers on any path to honour, respect and promote their faith

And i do agree it is a good topic for discussion and I did thank WFWT for starting it

Many others agree as well....just look at those poll results

Now that you have joined the debate...perhaps you can expand a bit more on what concerns you have

In response, you will find that you have access to a wealth of knowledge across the planet...I have learned a lot since I joined 6 months ago ....I am sure you and others can as well

Don't be put off and keep the debate going!!

winkingmunda

 

[seeker3k]

Findingmyway:

You have strengthened my belief that Sikhism is blind faith. You are defending your fake useless reituals with tooth n nail. You can not see what is wrong with doing these retiuals. I think is insult to Sikhism

I see only 4 gurus birth days are being celebrating in gurdwara. Why not the rest? Why not all the bhagat’s BD?

I have seen some people have only one guru’s picture framed in their home rest are just hug up on the wall.Almost all have Gobibd Singh’s pic some have Nanak’s. The goldsmiths always have Her-Krishan’s picture. Some hindu have Tage behadur picture.

I wonder why?

Instead giving me the links why not wtie in your own words what u have to say?

You did not agree with me in most of the points I made.I think you also said these rituals are good in Sikhism. Few you asked me where I got the notion from? Don’t you go to gurdwara? Are your eyes and ears open when you are in gurdawas?

The AC is not for the listener that I am talking about. It is when they put the book to sleep.

When you do ardas in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib do u think Sri Guru Granth Sahib can hear your ardas?

I asked you if you think guru had supernatural power it is just yes or no. Why u asking me where I got this notion. Don’t u listen to people talk about the powers of guru how they healed n cursed people?

If we have living guru as Sri Guru Granth Sahib then why do we worship the dead gurus? Don’t tell me they are still living in heaven.

If we believe that we have living why he don’t get up and stop people fighting with kirpans in front of him?

Sure I Agree the granth have very good writing that show us how to live our life. But to worship the guide book? Haha

Ardas is only done in front of some who don’t know about the situation. Here we claim Guru knows all past n feture. Whay do the ardas? Is it not insulting to guru when u do the ardas? Has he made a mistake that we ask him to correct it? Maybe not in the gurdwara u go to. But in many people ask bhi ji to do ardas for their heppiness and give peace at home.

If the bokk is living for u then why not bathe him also. They shange the clothing (rumalas) Put him in AC or heated room to sleep. No one have washed him ever since it was written..
It is people like you are who want to keep doing what Hindus are doing. Is this not insult yo all the gurus?

As for kirpan I asked who made it to be 6”. It was 3’ when Guru gave it to us?

WTW
You can keep on believing it don’t bother me. As far I am concern I will never do those things as rituals.

Please don’t give other religion’s ref. Keep it in Sikhism

 

[sunmukh]

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Seeker3 wrote:

You have strengthened my belief that Sikhism is blind faith

It surely doesn't matter to you either way? If you are agnostic, why would it concern you if WFTW is "ashamed to be a sikh", or if Findingmyway supports her faith. Shouldn't you be making up your own mind? If you are sitting on the fence with respect to God, then nobody is saying you have to jump onto a Sikh path, whether it leads to shame or not, whether it is built on blind faith or not. You appear not to have faith in the Lord so it shouldn't matter to you what others choose to believe. Or are you looking to join a group of religious people, but without faith in the Lord? If you are then, then you should look at disciplines, like some forms of Buddhism. If you do have faith in the Lord, then this requires blind faith, with no ifs or buts. If you have such faith, then all the other "stories" become immaterial. If you can manage your mind to retain faith in one concept without reason, or evidence, then it is possible to believe in a whole host of other facets of a faith.

If you are simply "picking" points with Sikhs, then surely you cannot expect Sikhs, or indeed members of any other faiths, to second rate their own faith. They are hardly going to say they follow a faith and then agree with others comments that seek to blow gaping holes in it at the same time. They will keep on justifying what they believe in, and they have to, in order to maintain faith, whether it is built on fact or on somebody's imagination.

You are being completely unrealsitic, if you expect Sikhs to malign their faith to any great degree. They might listen to you and humour you, but will not change course. Please look up what the generic definitions of "faith" and "religion" are in an encyclopedia. Faith requires belief, whether it is blind or not.

If you (or Amandeep_barabanki or WFTW) don't like what Sikhi is about, you can look elsewhere or set up your own faith, or stay on the fence.
This is not being intolerant to discussion, but when you have no aim but to bring down sikhs' values then there is no point discssuing with you. You have no constructive objective whatseover, whether to help yourself to a better more contented future, or to help sikhs to one.

Good luck whichever way you go as you walk along the fence.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[seeker3k]

This is my point. Sikhs don’t discuss their useless ritual but very quick to condemn other religion for their rituals.

I am not sitting on fence. nor I am agnostic. I love Sikhism and when people like you making it look bad then I write.

 

[Seeker9]

This is my point. Sikhs don’t discuss their useless ritual but very quick to condemn other religion for their rituals.
fficeffice" />
I am not sitting on fence. nor I am agnostic. I love Sikhism and when people like you making it look bad then I write.

Dear Seeker3k Ji

I am confused again

I see nothing in Sunmukh Ji's post that makes Sikhism look bad

It would be interesting to learn more about what your definition of Sikhism is?

To date, it looks like you have issues with the respect afforded to Sri Guru Granth SahibJ (althought I will agree there can be a thin line between respect and ritual...which was has been explored before in at least 2 SPN threads already)

You have issues with key articles of faith like the wearing of a Kirpan or recital of daily prayers. Again, I will agree that the recital of prayers should not be seen as an automatic daily chore but as a significant spiritual undertaking

If you could point to someone and say...."See that person over there...I admire him/her for being a true Sikh!"

Please describe that person to us so we can understand where you are coming from better.

What is that person's outward appearance?
What is it that person does to merit your admiration?
What are the things they don't do but you see other Sikhs do?

And on a different note..if you are not Agnostic but love Sikhism, may I suggest you amend your profile which is currently showing your preference to be Agnostic

 

[sunmukh]

This is my point. Sikhs don’t discuss their useless ritual but very quick to condemn other religion for their rituals.
fficeffice" /><?"urn:

I am not sitting on fence. nor I am agnostic. I love Sikhism and when people like you making it look bad then I write.

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Seeker3 ji,

a) Your profile suggests you are agnostic.
b) If you loved "Sikhism" you would not have such long lists with mocking undertones, relating to such a wide range of practises.
c) If you really do love sikhism, then to be constructive, then please also list the facets you "love", which also distinguish it from other religions which you do not hold as dear. It does not help any Sikhs who put value in their practices when you do not present a positive alternative, and I can't see how it could help you to merely mock practices. Sikhi presented an alternative to existing practitioners during its formative years, which lead to an inclusive society. There was no discrimination over caste or gender. There was rationalisation of multiple deities. There was freedom from superstition, and a move to a more humble, tolerant, compassionate society. These facets are still there, by and large,, whether somebody does an ardas, or puts up a photograph or not. If individuals do not follow all aspects, it does not imply there is any problem with the religion. If you love sikhism, as you say, then it behoves you to take on the responsibility of teaching others to follow the Gurus teachings, instead of mocking practices which in some cases may not be in accord with bani. Refer to BANI to higlight your case, rather than making general, subjective or emotional outbursts. If you do this, there is one less person for the Guru to guide, and you will be ading the Guru instead of undermining the Guru.

Thanking you in anticipation.

Sat Sri Akal

 

[grew1952]

GURFATEH, if you read Japji Sahib and understood it you would not have raised the question. It is mentioned in it that there is not one patal/sky but many. Now, it has been discovered about the other suns being discovered(two).

One of your point was "why, everyday we should do path" If u have read Japji Sahib, it states "bharee-ai hath pair tan dayh.paanee Dhotai utras khayh.moot paleetee kaparh ho-ay.day saaboon la-ee-ai oh Dho-ay.bharee-ai mat paapaa kai sang.oh Dhopai naavai kai rang. I hope u can understand this simple punjabi, it tells u why we should meditate every day.

If you have read the holy scriptures then u can argue, from your own statement, it shows that u donot have any knowledge. It is very easy to criticize. Neem hakim khatree jaan.

I am sorry if I have said anything harsh.
Gurfateh.

 

[spnadmin]

grew1952 ji

My own feelings are very strong on this issue. There are lessons we learn from personal experience that lead to personal knowledge. It is important to learn from experience, as that is learning from life. But these are not the same as lessons learned from shabadguru, which is guru's wisdom not munn's knowledge.

So to base our understanding of Sikhi based on life experience takes us only so far. The experience of any one person is always limited by the experience itself. Shabadguru teaches us to reach beyond those limitations. Gurmath is not munmath. You have stated it very clearly.

 

[findingmyway]

Seeker3k ji,
I am extremely disappointed with your responses.

This is my point. Sikhs don’t discuss their useless ritual but very quick to condemn other religion for their rituals.

SPN is all about questioning and realising the true word. If you read my many posts across this site I have said again and again I am working very hard to dispel rituals in my local Gurdwara, in my family and amongst other Sikhs I know. I don't think you've taken the time to read a single one of my posts :down:

I am not sitting on fence. nor I am agnostic. I love Sikhism

You words demonstrate the exact opposite. YOU are the one that is quick to criticise and refuses constructive discussion or knowledge. The fact that you call Guru Granth Sahib Ji a mere book shows your contempt for Sikhi.

You have strengthened my belief that Sikhism is blind faith. You are defending your fake useless reituals with tooth n nail. You can not see what is wrong with doing these retiuals. I think is insult to Sikhism

Actually I condemned the rituals you mentioned. But if you had bothered reading my posts which I spent a lot of time and effort compiling, you would know this. Some things you call ritual but there is a very good reason for those things and again this was all explained in my posts. Please please spend some time reading before commenting otherwise admit you have nothing to do with Sikhi.
You keep giving examples of extreme things -some I've never heard of, some I'm fighting against myself as they are wrong and some you have completely the wrong end of the stick.

Your next door neighbour is black and mugs you. Does that mean all blacks are muggers? NO. You school friend is a Jew. He refused to lend you meny for lunch. Does that make all Jews misers? NO. Some people don't understand Sikhi as they don't make the effort to understand Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Does that make all Sikhs superstitious? NO.

Increase your own knowledge 1st then educate others rather than just criticising. That is if you really love Sikhi. However, if you have another agenda, now would be a good time to declare it......

 

[findingmyway]

Findingmyway:
You have strengthened my belief that Sikhism is blind faith. You are defending your fake useless reituals with tooth n nail. You can not see what is wrong with doing these retiuals.

Instead giving me the links why not wtie in your own words what u have to say?

Seeker3k Ji and all who have issues with rituals, please read this:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/32638-use-metaphor-gurbani-how-use-when.html

You asked for my words. Well here is something I wrote for the teenagers in my gurmat classes. It clearly shows how the mistaken concept of ritual has arisen by using literal translations and what is actually meant is completely different. READ IT before replying please. I gave the links so you can see I am not a lone voice and I did not want to give my word as authority as I am not capable of that. I am still learning like all Sikhs. The links show the words of the sangat and are more informative than my words alone.

 

[Harry Haller]

When I was younger, I watched my mother 'regurgitate' all the time, I'm not quite sure she understood all the words, but I think she did her best to squeeze every last piece of knowledge out of what she could, and to my memory, it made her very happy and content, that sometimes she would cry with emotion at the meaning of the words. I am sure we all know people like this, and if others find even one word a day that touches them in the daily prayers, surely this is better than sitting around trying to dissect what millions know to be true, and pointing at what others do. Read the GGS, absorb what you can, as in the Koran, get a translation, till you have done this, you have no authority to make such a post, in my view