Caste System In Sikhism: Why?

[dalsingh]

Personally I think the caste thing can best be attacked at a family level. I know some people will probably always want to make an issue if their caste but my feeling is that when enough (i..e. the vast majority) of panth does not want jaat, the minority will become powerless.

That is is what we have to work towards.

 

[Manisha]

Gurfateh Gyani Ji..

Now when this student said:

I am a Dhillon Gyani Ji.....my grand father told me so

We’re referring back to what we said 1 of our main problem is – elders’ influence on youths.. Perfect example.. Do you know the student’s family? As, you said yourself you are an elder – but far from what these illusioned elders are; so I wondered what exactly your reply was..? Forgive me if I’m in wrong, but I would’ve corrected this young girl on everything she said..


Firstly when saying:

I am a Dhillon Gyani Ji.....my grand father told me so

She should’ve been told that surname is just a name.. It doesn’t define how “high and mighty, wealthy” you are – because all this is earned in life.. ALTHOUGH, the purpose of human life on earth is not this point.. She’s born with the surname but IT does NOT define her in any means!..


Also:

OK here is my NEW ID..Kulwant kaur Dhillon !!

You don’t become Kaur just like that.. Just because your parents have named you this.. You EARN this beautiful name – along with Singh – by becoming a true follower in the steps of Guru Ji..

These Holidays when we go to Canada I am going to ask their daughter....where she got the GILL name from ??

Do indeed ask.. May I predict the answer to be along the lines of “My father/grandfather gave me this name.. I was born with this name.. This is who I am”?


Secondly:

changed to GILLS....what CHEATERS

Again, I believe the grandfather has influenced the child’s thought to this.. But before I comment further on this, how did they change it if they did at all?


Thirdly:

who are the RAVIDASSIS

Well youths DO in fact become very influenced due to internet resources, so look it up! It’s as if she’s expecting the reply of “You know, those sort of people” *Sigh indeed*


And Fourthly/Finally:

How DO YOU actually "recognise" a Ravidassi..a chheemba..a chumaar..???? So HOW do I answer that ??

Now THAT! Question has totally gobsmacked me!

BUT, well, Gyani Ji, you simply say the ONLY answer for that:
“How did our own Guru Ji’s identify a Ravidassi, Chamar (same thing), Jatt, Tharkan ect? Well, They identified each and every one as………… EQUAL! (Duh)”

I guess the best way to answer all the “foolish” questions by people of this age (and before), is: To simply refer to Gurbani (Word of God and Guru Ji’s from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) to teach them FACTS NOT OPINIONS/FALSE INFO!


Gyani Ji..

OUR Gurdwaras were set up on REGIONAL BASIS… FOR THIS REASON.."caste" per se took a backstand

I’m not sure how you mean.. Our Gurdwaras are not like that :-S.. There are symbols inside and outside of the Gurdwara – to define what religion/(caste I think too) one is.. It may sound stupid, but because I do not mind which Gurdwara I go to (because at the end of the day, so to speak, I matha tekh to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and sit listening to stories of Guru Ji’s, shabads, kirtans, ect – after all that is the point!) I never saw this difference – the way in which Gurdwaras are “allocated” – this was until I went to an Akhand Paath where my cousin said “did you know this is a so and so Gurdwara because of that symbol?” Hmm.. Well I don’t care

and since "Caste" was traditionally on back burner anyway...the new generation Sikhs dont care much for that too

I think to a certain extent this modern age is slowly but surely allowing/encouraging inter-faith/”caste” (even) marriages – I guess indeed they must be the sort of people who don’t care much for this..

WHAT AM I ??

Nobody can tell anyone what they “are” or even force anyone to be someone they’re not.. Like I said my family tried to segregate myself from others by forcing the caste system upon me and trying to engrave this into my mind.. Into me.. Didn’t want me to make friends with certain castes even! But it didn’t work Because I make the decisions concerning me and the way I want to and should live my life..

I’ll be truthful however, like when I mentioned when I was younger – we’re going back 5 years perhaps, I did “brag” I guess – but what only influenced me however, was the fact that all the higher castes had formed this “CLAN”and I thought well why can’t we do this too..? But then (thankfully) I gave this up because I always knew in my heart it was wrong but thought that was the best way to retaliate.. I do hope Guru Ji forgives me; and also because of the “CLANS” that just seem to be irritatingly, stubbornly, never-ending! Lol.. Atleast I can say I can change for good purposes..

Anyway.. An answer to:

WHAT AM I ??

It doesn’t matter WHAT you are in terms of whether your name’s this and that.. It’s nothing and you can refer back to my 4th point about the girl..

However, WHO you are is much more important! For example, what you are could mean you’re wealthy BUT who you are is another thing altogether – it could be HOW you use WHAT you are.. – My example, when we die, Waheguru’s not going to care about the materialism things of this world i.e. money – but if somebody contributed this wealth to help people in need – then that’s one of the things that Waheguru will care about.. That’s not the whole thing, but a mere example..

MY CONCLUSION: ONLY WE CAN kill this. IF we ourselves consciopulsy DECIDE to CUT its HEAD. We can KILL caste..we can KILL DOWRY..we can KILL "suicides" and we can STOP KILLING Daughters...the DECISION IS OURS.

:yes: On a final note, Gyani Ji, I completely agree.. But how do we KILL this? And I do feel the need to state, that because your thinking is completely right and because you are older than lets say me, isn’t it so, you’re more likely to be heard than me? I’m sure you already are but do continue to encourage this ji..

Hope I haven’t said anything out of line.. WJKK WJKF

 

[Randip Singh]

Hmm.. I didn't know that.. But now that I do, I agree with what you're saying.. :yes:

I maybe wrong Mishi, are there are other views on this?

 

[Manisha]

Well, Randip Ji,

This can be a subjective subject as to why the caste sytem evolved (if that's what you're asking).. Like you've said, you may be wrong.. Only I know of others interpretations.. So I don't really know myself..

However when you said this:

Interesting that the Caste system works because we are born a certain status because of something we may have done wrong in another life.

I believe it to be interesting.. Because although, my family haven't taught me Sikhi and certain/all aspects of Sikhism directly in a sense, due to me obviously being born into a family of Ravidassia followers.. I've always had an in-depth interest and sometimes I believe it to be passion for Sikhi.. Since, a youngER age than what I am now.. I can't explain what I mean properly.. I've always had this interest, always felt overwhelmed as I learn more and more.. Felt like I could relate to it although I haven't taken what I believe to be a true step towards Sikhi.. (As I plan in future to do each step purely).. And this is from a young age, continued to now.. And I don't mean it in a bad way, because it's great for me to feel this way, however, I'm not sure how / when / why I began this.. I hadn't really started researching into this more up until recently either..

My point is, it could well be due to something we or I may have done wrong in previous life like you said - which could explain why I feel like this, and want to start again, make things right? Maybe not, maybe so..

 

[dalsingh]

I find the notion of caste pre-destiny in occupation as ridiculous as a white bricklayer telling me..."It's what I have to do guv, it's cos of me past life..."

"If I build really straight and neat walls, then maybe I can can come back as a middle class Interior Designer in my next life."

We also have to ask why other societies around the globe haven't place such a deterministic value on hereditary occupations. I mean could you imagine the following conversation between two Englishmen?

Bloke 1: What is you name?
Bloke 2: Smith, and yours?

Bloke 1: Archer. Do you know you descend from blacksmiths man!
Bloke 2: Yes.

Bloke 1: I descend from archers in the army, a higher social position that your lowly blacksmith. You are an inherently low species of human being man! God himself has punished you with this birth!
Bloke 2: Damn!

Bloke 1: So what do you do?
Bloke 2: I am an a engineer. What do you do?

Bloke 1: I am an accountant. But I am still better than you.
Bloke 2: Errr?

 

[Manisha]

Lol.. I get you too.. Dalsingh.. But like I said this subject is subjective.. I understand all views.. Yet I'm not in any position to say which is which.. i.e. Which is correct/false..

 

[BhagatSingh]

I find the notion of caste pre-destiny in occupation as ridiculous as a white bricklayer telling me..."It's what I have to do guv, it's cos of me past life..."

"If I build really straight and neat walls, then maybe I can can come back as a middle class Interior Designer in my next life."
We also have to ask why other societies around the globe haven't place such a deterministic value on hereditary occupations. I mean could you imagine the following conversation between two Englishmen?

Bloke 1: What is you name?
Bloke 2: Smith, and yours?​

Bloke 1: Archer. Do you know you descend from blacksmiths man!
Bloke 2: Yes.​

Bloke 1: I descend from archers in the army, a higher social position that your lowly blacksmith. You are an inherently low species of human being man! God himself has punished you with this birth!
Bloke 2: Damn!​

Bloke 1: So what do you do?
Bloke 2: I am an a engineer. What do you do?​

Bloke 1: I am an accountant. But I am still better than you.
Bloke 2: Errr?​

This not what caste is. This is just idiots thinking that they are better than others!
Caste does not mean that you are better because of your occupation. ​

Castes are systems of occupation, endogamy, social culture, social class, and political power, the assignment of individuals to places in the social hierarchy is determined by social group and cultural heritage. Although India is often now associated with the word "caste", it was first used by the Portuguese to describe inherited class status in their own European society.​

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste​

 

[dalsingh]

Ok Bhagat, Let's do this.

This not what caste is. This is just idiots thinking that they are better than others!

Caste does not mean that you are better because of your occupation. ​

Underneath the whole concept of the Hindu caste system and its deritives (i.e. the Panjabi one), is the notion of punishment in the forms of low birth. Ranking which clearly denotes superiority and the opposite. Whatever you might imagine it to be in your head, the end result is that it has simply led to people think they are better than others and hatred. Full stop.

If, theoretically, it wasn't originally designed for this, then it should be scrapped as a failure anyway.​

Castes are systems of occupation, endogamy, social culture, social class, and political power, the assignment of individuals to places in the social hierarchy is determined by social group and cultural heritage. Although India is often now associated with the word "caste", it was first used by the Portuguese to describe inherited class status in their own European society.​

Thing is, the European version isn't conspicuous for the ingrained, deep set hatred that characterises the Indian version. It essentially amounts to social segregation. I'm sure you know, but the Indian system is called 'varna' which means 'colour'. Many people believe the original form was also a racially separating system.​

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

IMHO..the Caste system was specifically designed and executed by those in "authority" to maintain their rule and superiority. Thus the Low caste Shudras could be perpetually kept down as slaves..without question...and when the "god/punishment" equation was brought in..that made it infinletly easier..these downtrodden masses wouldl just accept it as heavenly orders...AND THEY HAVE DONE SO.
When i went visiting Punjab...the sweeper, the daily labourer, the diharreedaar...happily sat on the floor and touched my feet...and I saw the Bahiyas being given food far away like we do to our DOGS !!
Even my DOG is allowed to approach the dining table/Kitchen.. to look for scraops...BUT the sweeper in Punajb has to take his food at the DOOR...so as not to BHITT the Jatt house !! I NEVER imagined i would see thsi as this si the 21st Century..and having stayed in Malaysia for my entire life and never having practised all this i was so EMBARRASSED. Wonder of Wonders..when i Visited those supposedly Low Caste Bastees.....the INHABITANTS themsleves "acknolwledged" that I was HIGH CLASS and they were LOW CLASS and they rushed to BUY me NEW BHANDDEH to eat in ( although I ahd NEVER met them before..i didnt know them and never exhibited that i was high or low class..BUT they INSISTED that I must use the NEW Bhnannddeh to drink in as..we are neevehn sardar ji...I was invariably given a manjah while they sat on the ground...etc. IN Malaysia even a Beggar will take a seat on any avilable chair while we go look for some food/clothes etc to give him alms...and IF he is invited in as a labourer/plumber.sweeper etc...there is no question of him sitting on the floor etc..he/she will sit on The same sofa we have guests sit on...
The ENTIRE COUNTRY of INDIA needs a PARADIGM SHIFT...uts not any individual religion/kaums/ problem...

MISHI JI..thansk for your refreshing missive..my sentiments exactly...keep in chardeekalla jios..

 

[BhagatSingh]

DalSingh ji,
I am talking about Caste in general. I know teh Indian Caste System is and most others are ***** beep **** beep******* beep**** beep*******beep **** beep****** beep**** beep****** *********** .
lol do I make myself clear?
I am going to bed now, so if you give me few more hours after I wake up, I could write you a small essay on how a caste system can be useful in a society. ... and then you may proceed with your onslaught. :happy:

 

[dalsingh]

Gyani Ji: The ENTIRE COUNTRY of INDIA needs a PARADIGM SHIFT...uts not any individual religion/kaums/ problem...

If anyone should be leading from the front it is Sikhs!! Especially Amritdhari Singhs! Our thing was actually designed to do this but have become like the others. How **** is that. Are we no different?

Bhagat Singh: I am going to bed now, so if you give me few more hours after I wake up, I could write you a small essay on how a caste system can be useful in a society. ... and then you may proceed with your onslaught.

Don't be sloppy mundeya. I want you to tell me how having a caste system can be beneficial to Sikh society okay! Bring it on!

 

[BhagatSingh]

Don't be sloppy mundeya. I want you to tell me how having a caste system can be beneficial to Sikh society okay! Bring it on!

Alright! :}{}{}: have patience my friend, have patience.... while you're at it, read up on Darwinian Evolution, you'll need it for the essay.

 

[dalsingh]

Alright! :}{}{}: have patience my friend, have patience.... while you're at it, read up on Darwinian Evolution, you'll need it for the essay.

You'd better come up with something better than

"We can use it to selectively breed the best farmers, tanners, sweepers and carpenters for our society! And make super-farmers, super-tanners , super-sweepers etc etc......"

lol

 

[BhagatSingh]

You'd better come up with something better than

"We can use it to selectively breed the best farmers, tanners, sweepers and carpenters for our society! And make super-farmers, super-tanners , super-sweepers etc etc......"

lol

Oh ok you gave me the wrong impression earlier. I thought there were some Singhs who were fed up with the Indian caste system so much that they could never see any good come out of castes.
But lol, you proved me wrong. Thanks

Your comment puts out a valid point. I dont know why you are putting LOL after it. I didnt think of taht actually but its certainly something that can be done in the absense of technology; its something that can improve human societies. But its not so effective, since humans reproduce quite slowly. I dont mean the actual process of reproduction. Thats lightning fast compared to what I am talking about. LOL Anyways, because we reproduce slowly, we also evolve slowly. So what humans have done is they have started developing technologies with the help of scientific research to fill in where they lack and to improve where they can.

but that phenonmenon of breeding super-whatever can be seen to small degree in the black population in the US. Why do you think black men are generally more muscular than other races? Two reasons, their upbringing, and evolution. The blacks were used to be slaves in the US, and they had originally come from hunter-gatherer communities in Africa (hunter-gatherer e.g of caste system). both require muscle power, therefore...???... you've guessed it... more muscular youth in newer generations.

This could have happened with Sikhs as well because of our history (over a long period oftime). And was probably true for Spartans who were bred (artificial selection as opposed to natural selection in Blacks) for strength.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

In the context of breeding anything that is bigger, better and stronger, it is important to make a clear distinction between three ideas: Natural selection (Darwin); inheritance of acquired characteristics (Lamarck); and survival of the fittest (Malthus).

Inheritance of acquired characteristics has been intellectually discredited. Survival of the fittest is a concept from economics not biology -- though it is constantly used incorrectly as if that is what Darwin was explaining. He was not. Natural selection - which claims that certain characteristics are favored by the environment at certain points in time - does not argue that features should be selectively bred out of a species. Rather a wide variety of characteristics are necessary within a species so that, when the environment changes, features that were not selected earlier are still available to help a species adapt under new environmental conditions. Thus biological diversity is requisite to species survival.

The idea that black men are more muscular in and of itself can't be documented scientifically. The notion supports a stereotype that most African-Americans find offensive. And the survival of any "race" (no such thing actually, another 19 th Century European fiction) depends on its genetic diversity.

I doubt that we "breed" farmers, technicians, etc. Rather we probably create political and economic conditions that are favorable for the cultivation and encouragement of individual talent -- unless we live in socially engineered societies that are usually dictatorships, and usually go down the tubes in time. For reasons stated aboe.

 

[spnadmin]

P/S The caste system was probably one of the greatest impediments to economic development in India after liberation. It may have supported social sttability and economic adaptation in India during the Brahminical period and through the raj. But by keeping people locked in homogeneous levels of society prevented diversity of talent and motivation to provide those very variants that promote growth and development under new and challenging environmental conditions.

Another feather in the turban of Guru Nanak.

 

[Manisha]

First of all, my pleasure and thank you Gyani Ji..

Now..

and I saw the Bahiyas being given food far away like we do to our DOGS !!

I NEVER imagined i would see thsi as this si the 21st Century..and having stayed in Malaysia for my entire life and never having practised all this i was so EMBARRASSED.

IN Malaysia even a Beggar will take a seat on any avilable chair while we go look for some food/clothes etc to give him alms...and IF he is invited in as a labourer/plumber.sweeper etc...there is no question of him sitting on the floor etc..he/she will sit on The same sofa we have guests sit on...

Like you said, you never imagined to see this type of treatment in 21st Century.. However, I think this doesn't happen in Western countries but without a doubt these LEDC (less economically developed/poor) countries have not changed!

Also, I'd like to share a very brief incident regarding this awful treatment in 21st Century.. Not long ago, sometime last year.. I was talking to a friend where he said he didn't really care about caste ect ect.. And as we were discussing this, he began to say something about what his mum had told him and suddenly his face dropped - like he'd been in trouble.. I asked what was wrong and he said he didn't want to tell me because it was wrong/bad and that I might feel offended - because if someone said that to him, he would.. I insisted he tell me - as nothing surprises me those/these days.. And he said that his mum had told him not to make friends with certain (lower) castes.. I understood what he meant based on what my family insisted too BUT she continued on to say that: She would never let a chamar into her house PERIOD.. She said that if there was a chamar lying half-dead outside her house, she wouldn't bring him/her in, may give water/food perhaps but not even touch him.. I was absolutely gobsmacked yet again..

The ENTIRE COUNTRY of INDIA needs a PARADIGM SHIFT...uts not any individual religion/kaums/ problem...

This is like what I was saying before, and as Dalsingh Ji's saying too.. About Amridhari's should be leading this front.. It's elder people who have the correct knowledge, "people in charge" if you like, members of Gurdwaras, Amritdhari's, people of higher authority - in terms of Sikhism; who people WILL listen to - because they're spreading (or should be) the right message.. The messages of the Guru Ji's..

 

[dalsingh]

Bhagat jio!

you gave me the wrong impression earlier. I thought there were some Singhs who were fed up with the Indian caste system so much that they could never see any good come out of castes.

No this was the right impression! I am one such person.

Regarding why I don't think caste is a good thing. I think Aad ji made most of the points I was going to. I would just like to underscore the lack of flexibility point more. Just because we come from a line of farmers, blacksmiths, cobblers it doesn't mean that this is what we are best for! Diversity has been built into humans and instead of stifling ability we should have freedom in a society to pursue our abilities.

Imagine, you were not allowed to pursue your art because you had to adhere to your caste duties...would that suck?

Ultimately, the caste thing in India was a very manipulative attempt at rigid social engineering by Brahmins of old. Our quoms diasporic experience, clearly provides evidence (if it were ever needed), that people who are from all types of backgrounds (including so called low ones) can attain high achievements in diverse fields given the opportunity.

Caste sucks and is not a good idea, period! Let people's talents guide their profession. Let their actions define their status.

 

[BhagatSingh]

The idea that black men are more muscular in and of itself can't be documented scientifically.

Why not? We can collect random samples from black communities, and see if inferences can be made about the population. ... Probability and Statistics.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Truth is wherever you live, you are living in a caste system.
Castes have evolved to present day classes: Upper Class, Middle Class and Lower Class.
Although, you have the freedom to go from one to the other, it‘s quite difficult. Each class has its professions, some overlap. “Interclass” marriages are uncommon. There is obviously some level of discrimination.

If you believe in reincarnation, you should have no trouble with the caste system. I mean at one point you are higher caste and another, you are lower caste.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Here's something interesting:
Reforms in Hindu Caste System by J. Ajith Kumar

 

[dalbirk]

Bhagat Singh Ji ,
I've gone through this article & the writer seems to be a eternal RSS Chamcha persisting with something which should not have been there in the first place . This caste system is solely responsible for all ills of Indian society & also thousands years of slavery in past 2000 years .If caste system is such an integral part of Hinduism then WHY NOT DO AWAY WITH HINDUISM ALTOGETHER & preach the religion of NEW AGE ie. Sikhism in whole of India .