Caste System In Sikhism: Why?

[spnadmin]

Why not? We can collect random samples from black communities, and see if inferences can be made about the population. ... Probability and Statistics.
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Truth is wherever you live, you are living in a caste system.
Castes have evolved to present day classes: Upper Class, Middle Class and Lower Class.
Although, you have the freedom to go from one to the other, it‘s quite difficult. Each class has its professions, some overlap. “Interclass” marriages are uncommon. There is obviously some level of discrimination.

If you believe in reincarnation, you should have no trouble with the caste system. I mean at one point you are higher caste and another, you are lower caste.

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Here's something interesting:
Reforms in Hindu Caste System by J. Ajith Kumar

Bhagat ji - This is simply incorrect, factually incorrect. Class is not permanent. It may be difficult to break the class barrier in highly stratified societies, but it happens every day. In the caste system (more accurately the varna system) a person was born and died within the varna. The caste system was instituted with the Law of Manu thousands of years ago. Individuals were born and reborn into the SAME caste until all their karma was washed. Only then did they progress to the next stage.

What happened? Those who broke the caste barrier were punished severely. Read or chant the vedas if you were a Chudra -- and you were punished with death. Happen to walk in the shadow of a Brahmin, and the Brahmin had to take a ritual bath. Both high and low were trapped in a depersonalizing social system that paralyzed society. And it is still going on. A 2-year old Dalit girl gang raped because her father supported a local dera. When he sought justice his arms and one leg were cut off. If you and your betrothed want to marry (you are a Jain or a Sikh or Buddhist) you still have to pay a Brahmin for the ritual of walking around Agni.

So things sound hamrless, irrelevant, or maybe even unimportant in theory -- but in fact a entirely different picture unfolds. Forgive me. I am speaking in a sharp voice. Please dig a little deeper when you make arguments like these.

 

[spnadmin]

Hindu Marriabe Act
http://www.sudhirlaw.com/HMA55.htm

Sex drimes against Dalit women are justified in the minds of many from upper castes. Read on:

http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd[157]=x-157-560023

Caste difference contributes to violence against Dalit women – Central India Women News Network – WNN

This is a far cry from our Guru and sants risking their own lives to rescue the daughters of Brahmins from mughal hordes, only to be "busted" later by same.

Anyway, this is a digression. The topic is Caste and Sikhs. Thanks, aad0002

 

[jasi]

SAT SRI AKAL jI.
Please read the history first who created the divisions of the society. It was invading Aryan who conquered the people in Indus valley so called Tamil in today's India.
Manu set up this system to rule the society his political ways which became one of the worst degrading system to isolate and divide each community to communicate .Chanykia used it to the fullest as authority to rule being home minister to guide the present kings. .
The worst things not to mentioned here were done to lower cast during many centuries..Please wake up. There is new law exist now since last three years if you call these so call low cast people by their names ,you can go for 6 month jail without any bail.You are still commenting about what good can bring the cast system.
OUR GURUS REMOVED THE CAST SYSTEM ONCE FOR ALL SAYING WE ALL COME FROM ONE LIGHT.
The system served nothing but divisions and hatred and you are talking about benefits of cast system and comparing to the slavery of Innocent people by the western society.They rounded up them these uneducated human being (slaves )and make a trainagular tradi by selling them to different countries.

It is so shameful to mention such a inhuman treatments done to them and justify bu y Darwin theory or what . Where one should feel proud of GURUS who shun all these practices.
They took the maximum of our uneducated society and ruled us more than 200 years by dividing us all and you are supporting the cast system. Look at the Sikhism it self is in many groups today .If you acll aany person who looks like a sikh BHAI SAHIB . he will ask you in return if you know him. We forgoten that all sikhs are brothers to each others. Is it not enough to teach us this lesson to be one and practice the truth what is written in GUR GRANTh SAHEB JI and it is accessible to all human beings regardless of any tail attached.
BHUL CHUK MAF.
Jaspi


This is just for all the people's attention who are sharing this forum.

Bhagat ji

In the context of breeding anything that is bigger, better and stronger, it is important to make a clear distinction between three ideas: Natural selection (Darwin); inheritance of acquired characteristics (Lamarck); and survival of the fittest (Malthus).

Inheritance of acquired characteristics has been intellectually discredited. Survival of the fittest is a concept from economics not biology -- though it is constantly used incorrectly as if that is what Darwin was explaining. He was not. Natural selection - which claims that certain characteristics are favored by the environment at certain points in time - does not argue that features should be selectively bred out of a species. Rather a wide variety of characteristics are necessary within a species so that, when the environment changes, features that were not selected earlier are still available to help a species adapt under new environmental conditions. Thus biological diversity is requisite to species survival.

The idea that black men are more muscular in and of itself can't be documented scientifically. The notion supports a stereotype that most African-Americans find offensive. And the survival of any "race" (no such thing actually, another 19 th Century European fiction) depends on its genetic diversity.

I doubt that we "breed" farmers, technicians, etc. Rather we probably create political and economic conditions that are favorable for the cultivation and encouragement of individual talent -- unless we live in socially engineered societies that are usually dictatorships, and usually go down the tubes in time. For reasons stated aboe.

 

[spnadmin]

Jaspi,

You are "tops" in my book for this comment. :happy:

Antonia

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

GURU JI didnt "breed" any stronger..tougher..sikhs...

Guru Ji took whatever Human resource He had..and moulded that into the Best Fighting Force that gave the Fully trained Mughals professional soldiers a run for their money...
When Guru Ji first wanted his sikhs to fight..they told Guru Ji....Guru Ji..we are merely halwais, farmers, ordinary folks..we havent held a knife much less wield a sword..all we have held are ploughs and karrchhes to stir halwa and barfee..

Guru Hargobind Ji fought and WON all four battles foisted on Him and the Sikhs...Guru Jis son..Teg Bahadur wieded the sword so bravely in one of these....
Later these same SIKHS fought the Million Man army of Aurengzeb most successfully...defeating larger armies..until Sawa lakh se Ek larraon became REALITY. Baba Bnada Singhs armies were small..and so were all the SIKH armies that finally won over the entire Punjab up to ladakh Kasmir Afghanistan Borders....these same Siksh fought the British so well...they began to call sikhs a Martial RACE !! BUT this Martial Race was the very SAME Human Resource already existing BUT SLAVES under the Msulims for a THOUSAND YEARS !!!
TODAY..the very same RACE..same food, same build, same language etc etc....BUT DIFFERENT RELIGION, RELIGIOUS ETHOS....DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEM...exists in BOTH PUNJABS..one Lahore and the other Chandigarh...but compare the two and see the vast difference...in economics, crop yields, etc etc..the SIKH Farmer, the SIKH Soldier, the SIKH Warrior.the SIKH MIgrant..is invariably the BETTER of the two....WHAT is the SECRET INGREDIENT ?? GURSIKHI...GURMATT...GURBANI of SGGS and the GURUS is what is different.

Now we are falling BACKwards..into the PIT the Gurus took us OUT OF..we are adopting the BIPRAN REETS..the Value sytem of the Bippar..Brahmin...the Pitfalls of the Bippar...rakhis, lohrees, diwalis, rakshabandans, fasts, karva chauths, and holis and all sangrands pooransmashis good days bad days..shubh days marrey din..astrology, jantars mantars,,holy babas mahapurshses curses and asherwaads of vehlarr babas yogis....masaans and graveyards we pooj..we pooj and chrra chadars at muslim graves...we do one and thousand useless rituals..and FORGET FORSAKE GURBANI..that MADE US LIONS out of MICE !!

WE NEED to URGENTLY GO BACK TO GURBANI and our ROOTS..or we are dead....buried in the deep ocean of the Bippar....floating like loaths..dead bodies...:}--}::shy::}--}::shy::}--}::shy::idea::idea:

 

[dalsingh]

GURU JI didnt "breed" any stronger..tougher..Sikhs...

Guru Ji took whatever Human resource He had..and moulded that into the Best Fighting Force that gave the Fully trained Mughals professional soldiers a run for their money...

So true.

 

[roopsidhu]

SSA
Caste system in sikhism: why ?
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE ANSWER IS :-
There is no caste system in the sikhism. The one we are living with having caste system is not sikhism. The sacred idealogy of the sikhism has been hijacked by opportunists. Anyone having belief in caste system can be a True Sikh.
Do not loose heart there are lot of sikhs like you who do not believe in caste system. They are the real sikhs and there are a lot.
Roopsidhu

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat ji - This is simply incorrect, factually incorrect. Class is not permanent. It may be difficult to break the class barrier in highly stratified societies, but it happens every day. In the caste system (more accurately the varna system) a person was born and died within the varna. The caste system was instituted with the Law of Manu thousands of years ago. Individuals were born and reborn into the SAME caste until all their karma was washed. Only then did they progress to the next stage.

What happened? Those who broke the caste barrier were punished severely. Read or chant the vedas if you were a Chudra -- and you were punished with death. Happen to walk in the shadow of a Brahmin, and the Brahmin had to take a ritual bath. Both high and low were trapped in a depersonalizing social system that paralyzed society. And it is still going on. A 2-year old Dalit girl gang raped because her father supported a local dera. When he sought justice his arms and one leg were cut off. If you and your betrothed want to marry (you are a Jain or a Sikh or Buddhist) you still have to pay a Brahmin for the ritual of walking around Agni.

So things sound hamrless, irrelevant, or maybe even unimportant in theory -- but in fact a entirely different picture unfolds. Forgive me. I am speaking in a sharp voice. Please dig a little deeper when you make arguments like these.

Naryanjot Kaur ji, nowhere in my response have I given faulty information, the kind that you are refuting here (I put it in Italics). In fact, I said the same thing.

However, there is (was) one problem with our conversation. You are specifically talking about the Hindu Caste System, which is horrific I agree, while I am talking about the idea of caste or class.

 

[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

This is what you said, "Truth is wherever you live, you are living in a caste system.
Castes have evolved to present day classes: Upper Class, Middle Class and Lower Class.
Although, you have the freedom to go from one to the other, it‘s quite difficult. Each class has its professions, some overlap. “Interclass” marriages are uncommon. There is obviously some level of discrimination."

It is wrong. Social class is not an evolved form of caste. Social class has existed in societies where there is no history of caste whatsoever, with caste being in the case of India historically wound up in thousands of years of religious belief, with ethical, economic connections. For example, the craft guilds of Medieval Europe were for their time a "class" in the social organization of European societies. They were even hereditary, with sons born into a craft. But they were nothing like caste where there are mythic, ethical, religious or divine association. Example, the case between Brahmin and shudra. There were no instructions that a shudra be killed if caught reciting the vedas. Class and caste are two different things. They are similar in that they are both forms of social organization and hierarchy. That is what they have in common. I think you have taken a kernel of similarity, a shared feature, and have overgeneralized from it.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Narayanjot Kaur ji
A
Let me say this again:

However, there is (was) one problem with our conversation. You are specifically talking about the Hindu Caste System, which is horrific I agree, while I am talking about the idea of caste or class.

I am referring to 1a while you are referring to 2. Obviously I am not picking small similarities and overgeneralizing.
Caste and Class mean pretty much the same thing, except that class is used for objects as well. When talking about Hinduism then of course, Caste is attached to a historical baggage.
This is the definition of Caste from Dictionary.com

1.
Sociology. a. an endogamous and hereditary social group limited to persons of the same rank, occupation, economic position, etc., and having mores distinguishing it from other such groups.

b. any rigid system of social distinctions.


2. Hinduism. any of the social divisions into which Hindu society is traditionally divided, each caste having its own privileges and limitations, transferred by inheritance from one generation to the next; jati.Compare class (def. 13).

3. any class or group of society sharing common cultural features: low caste; high caste.

4. social position conferred upon one by a caste system: to lose caste.

5. Entomology. one of the distinct forms among polymorphous social insects, performing a specialized function in the colony, as a queen, worker or soldier.

Here's the def for class:

1.
a number of persons or things regarded as forming a group by reason of common attributes, characteristics, qualities, or traits; kind; sort: a class of objects used in daily living.
2. a group of students meeting regularly to study a subject under the guidance of a teacher: The class had arrived on time for the lecture.

3. the period during which a group of students meets for instruction.

4. a meeting of a group of students for instruction.

5. a classroom.

6. a number of pupils in a school, or of students in a college, pursuing the same studies, ranked together, or graduated in the same year: She graduated from Ohio State, class of '72.

7. a social stratum sharing basic economic, political, or cultural characteristics, and having the same social position: Artisans form a distinct class in some societies.

8. the system of dividing society; caste.

9. social rank, esp. high rank.

10. the members of a given group in society, regarded as a single entity.

11. any division of persons or things according to rank or grade: Hotels were listed by class, with the most luxurious ones listed first.

12. excellence; exceptional merit: She's a good performer, but she lacks class.

13. Hinduism. any of the four social divisions, the Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Shudra, of Hindu society; varna.Compare caste (def. 2).

14. Informal. elegance, grace, or dignity, as in dress and behavior: He may be a slob, but his brother has real class.

15. any of several grades of accommodations available on ships, airplanes, and the like: We bought tickets for first class.

16. Informal. the best or among the best of its kind: This new plane is the class of the wide-bodied airliners.

17. Biology. the usual major subdivision of a phylum or division in the classification of organisms, usually consisting of several orders.

18. British University. any of three groups into which candidates for honors degrees are divided according to merit on the basis of final examinations.

19. drafted or conscripted soldiers, or persons available for draft or conscription, all of whom were born in the same year.

20. Grammar. form class.

21. Ecclesiastical. classis.

22. (in early Methodism) one of several small companies, each composed of about 12 members under a leader, into which each society or congregation was divided.

23. Statistics. a group of measurements that fall within a specified interval.

24. Mathematics. a set; a collection.

25. the classes, the higher ranks of society, as distinguished from the masses.

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[spnadmin]

Bhagat ji

If your reply to me is not a perfect example of over-generalization, then Nohting I can say will convince you.

Let us add the image of a pool table where all the points above are like ***** banging the rails, and nothing sinks in a pocket. Sorry to be this blunt.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Before I continue, Narayanjot Kaur ji,
you once mentioned "Socratic.." in our previous discussion. Coincidentally, I had at the time enrolled in a course on him, which I am now studying in, this month. It seems my way of conversing is very similar to that of Socrates.

Anyways,
--------------------------------
B
My point was that Castes are here to stay, whether they persist in the form of "Hindu Caste" or what you call "Class". The Hindu Caste system obviously had built-in discrimination. The present day Castes don't but there is still discrimination. In the west, there might not be discrimination but prejudices still exist.

The comment containing Darwinian Evolution has been distorted beyond repair so I won't even try to explain that.
----------------------------------------
C
Solution:
One can't rid of the whole Hindu caste system but one can slowly change the system towards betterment. Hindu Caste system is tied to religion and religion is tied to people's most deepest feelings.

In Sikhism, there is a place for caste (class) but merely as labels. We've discussed previously that Guru Sahibs didn't reject class (castes) but the Hindu caste system which carries the horrific ideas you mentioned, Narayanjot ji.

With that said, there exists those individuals who are Sikh (orthodox or not) that do discriminate people based on castes, and there are individuals who are Hindu (orthodox or not) that do the same. So clearly religion is not the answer, referring to Dalbirk ji's post.

Yet, there exists those individuals who are Sikh (orthodox or not) yet do reject the Caste System, and there are individuals who are Hindu (orthodox or not) that do the same.
How can individuals following the same religion to the same degrees differ like that? If we could find out what makes them different, we could use that to fight the Hindu Caste System.

I propose the difference is actually a move away from religion, where the orthodox (because they are attached to their particular religion) justify their values by interpreting verses with a secular (unconcerned with any particular religion) mode of thought and educated background. Those without that secular mode of thought and educated background, read the same verses and see something different.
Thus the solution is secular thought (critical thinking) with education, from childhood, not a change in religion or following religion more closely or even giving up religion.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Bhagat ji

If your reply to me is not a perfect example of over-generalization, then Nohting I can say will convince you.

Let us add the image of a pool table where all the points above are like ***** banging the rails, and nothing sinks in a pocket. Sorry to be this blunt.

Maybe I lack the ability to understand or you lack the ability to convince or both, but I don't see it as over-generalization. I see it as using two different definitions.

EDIT: Referring to previous comment, I made several arguments, I think if we kept them separate, the discussion will be much cleaner and you might not have to use a "sharp voice".

 

[Seeker9]

An interesting read!

I would like to offer a few thoughts:

1) Whilst the origins of this problem are in religion, it's manifestation now has gone beyond religion and sunk it's tentacles deep into the culture and psyche of the population. So I would suggest religion alone is not the answer and not everyone may be that religious anyway to be affected in the way you suggest. Generally, I suspect older generation people in higher castes are keen to maintain their status and will continue to do so by instilling the same bigoted behaviours and norms with their children

2) Evoluton??? Must confess this is not a link I have come across before in similar discussions. As I think Narayanjot Ji correctly noted earlier, the caste system also focusses on colour. I would suggest there is no evolutionary driver
for someone in a village to be higher caste and fair skinned as opposed to someone else in the same village of a lower caste who is darker skinned. So, may I suggest we don't confuse evolutionary processes that occur over epochs of time with genetics and the long-term impact of marriages and births within specific geographical areas.

3) In my humble opinion the only way to tackle this issue is in the same way as racism; through confronting it head on and education and hopefully over successive generations, we may eventually be rid off this once and for all...not in my lifetime though!

 

[BhagatSingh]

An interesting read!

I would like to offer a few thoughts:

1) Whilst the origins of this problem are in religion, it's manifestation now has gone beyond religion and sunk it's tentacles deep into the culture and psyche of the population. So I would suggest religion alone is not the answer and not everyone may be that religious anyway to be affected in the way you suggest. Generally, I suspect older generation people in higher castes are keen to maintain their status and will continue to do so by instilling the same bigoted behaviours and norms with their children.
....

3) In my humble opinion the only way to tackle this issue is in the same way as racism; through confronting it head on and education and hopefully over successive generations, we may eventually be rid off this once and for all...not in my lifetime though!

Ah, its great that you agree with me! Now two questions arise:
1) What does it mean to have "good" education?
2) How can we bring education to those who don't receive it?

I reckon that since the second one is economic, I won't do justice to it if I attempt to answer it. But the first one is philosophical in nature. What does good education mean?
It should be clear that many of the people who still believe in the caste system are educated to some degree. How can we improve the education so that it provides them with the right tools to fight things like caste system and racism?

 

[roopsidhu]

SSA,
The good education here is not degrees of different diciplines. I like to put it in a way that that instead of good education there is a flow of bad education ( specially from different religious cheats, cults, deras or so called babas). They are the one who do not want the caste system to vanish because they are playing with the sentiments of the masses on the names of castes and running there businesses.
I have personally noticed that many so called educated people with PG degrees or higher are so impressed by Thagg babas that they only listen to these babas.
Unless these babas are corrected, unless babas try to end the caste system, it will remain as it is.
Lets hope that waheguru will give some good education (summat) to these thaggs.
Roopsidhu

 

[BhagatSingh]

SSA,
The good education here is not degrees of different diciplines. I like to put it in a way that that instead of good education there is a flow of bad education ( specially from different religious cheats, cults, deras or so called babas). They are the one who do not want the caste system to vanish because they are playing with the sentiments of the masses on the names of castes and running there businesses.
I have personally noticed that many so called educated people with PG degrees or higher are so impressed by Thagg babas that they only listen to these babas.
Unless these babas are corrected, unless babas try to end the caste system, it will remain as it is.
Lets hope that waheguru will give some good education (summat) to these thaggs.
Roopsidhu

Roop ji
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that good education is just getting rid of bad education. But you aren't using bad education to mean education, are you? Because what the Babas are telling people isn't education but knowledge that isn't factual, which is taken to be factual by people. In reality its nonsense. So getting rid of the source of the nonsense is your solution to the problem?
Have you heard the saying: You can kill a man but not his ideas... or something to this effect?
You obviously aren't proposing to kill anybody! (THough I must acknowledge a Sikh militant might be inclined to do so...) But getting rid of the person somehow won't rid you of the idea.
I believe the saying is true because ideas aren't killed by "killing" or "ridding of" or correcting their source. They are killed through argumentation. Formulating counter-arguments to counter and undermine the undesirable ideas.

 

[roopsidhu]

SSA,
Bhagatsingh ji from where you brought the idea of killing some one. I have clearly written " Unless these babas are corrected, unless babas try to end the caste system.
Correcting does not mean killing. Why I brought these babas into discussion is because maximum of our uneducated people have blind faith in babas and they obey babas blindly. So if babas ( if they really wish) will start preaching against the cast system, it will be much more effective in case of masses because most of the people are addicted to the orders of babas blindly. So this blind faith can be used against caste system.
And please permit me to say that nowadays the socalled educated people are worsely struck in caste system than ordinary masses.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Roop ji,
I request you to read my reply again. Each and every word. I feel you didn't understand what I actually said.

And please permit me to say that nowadays the socalled educated people are worsely struck in caste system than ordinary masses.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

I disagree with the last sentence but you have my permission to say it. Lol no you don't need anyone's permission. If you can provide reasons for why you think so then I can put it under scrutiny.
With education we are trying to free people from Babas altogether, which in itself is an issue.

 

[spnadmin]

Roop ji,
If you can provide reasons for why you think so then I can put it under scrutiny.

That is the choice of roopsidhu ji..whether he wishes to elaborate and whether he wishes to be placed under scrutiny. Narayanjot Kaur