Charitropakhyan Charitropakhyan And I

[spnadmin]

Roopsikhu ji

ਖੁਥੇ means "plucked" with the translation as "shaved" OK in my book given the context of the shabad. The reference, you can see from the entire shabad, is to a sect of ascetics who pulled their hair out. Plucking hair in Hindu tradition also conforms to some funerary practices. Widows heads would also be shaven as a sign of self-abandonment and retreat from the world.

ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇ ਪੀਅਹਿ ਮਲਵਾਣੀ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਖਾਹੀ ॥
sir khohaae peeahi malavaanee joothaa mang mang khaahee ||
They pluck the hair out of their heads, and drink in filthy water; they beg endlessly and eat the garbage which others have thrown away.

ਖੁਥੇ
ਖੋਹਾਇ

These are grammatically related.Reference: Dictonary of Guru Granth Sahib, by Professor Surinder Singh Kohli

 

[spnadmin]

Aman ji is telling me that we are going off track in discussing ਖੁਥੇ

The discussion is about Chrarittrhopakayan. He is right. This business of ਖੁਥੇ only came up because I used it in a tuk about devils a few posts back in this thread. So we have to get back where we belong. Thanks.

 

[Archived_Member_17]

Sat Shri Akaal Everyone,

RoopSidhu Ji, this shabad is far the Jain people who go to the extremes to protect any living thing from getting killed. They pluck their hair from head so no lice will grow in them, then they will have to kill lice. To avoid killing the lice, they pluck their hair as a religous duty. Guru Sahib has criticized all of their deeds as their religious duty to save the living beings as only God can kill or save anything. So you have to read the complete shabad to understand the implication of it. Gurbani criticizes people who modifiy their bodies under the name of God.

I hope this helps.
Rani Kaur

 

[spnadmin]

rani_vancouver ji

Yes.... The ascetics were the dhoondiyas sadhus, who were Jains and whose way of life was unhygienic. This was during Guru Nanak's travels to the south of India.

 

[roopsidhu]

thanks rani ji
Aman ji is also right we were getting off the track. but quoting " all shaven headed are devils" was inviting clarification which rani ji has put up very clearly. Thanks everyone and lets move back to charotaropakhian.
roopsidhu

 

[sachbol]

Charitropakhyan and I
A writer Sanjam Kaur

I want every one to read her Story line and reply her back how she can define womens role in Charitropakhyan

Few or her words I will share
am a woman with two teenage daughters and I have recently finished reading the English translation of Charitropakhyan. The whole text of Charitropakhyan deals with different aspects or shades of a woman's nature, some good some bad.

If you all listen or read Sri Guru Granth Shaib Ji, you will understand that we are asked to reach the turiya state where we become the knower or the observer in us. This observer in all of us who is gone through infinite experiences in infinite lifetimes and is here now in this human body and has the great gift of being a Sikh and know Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Supreme Guru, the King of this kalyug, that observer can greatly appreciate the lessons Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to teach to his beloved Khalsa in Charitropakhyan.
Let us think about a Sikh Sirdar, our Guru Sahib’s beautiful incredible creation called Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa and put him where? Did the great Guru create a perfectly pure place, sterile from all vices for his Khalsa to live in? No. Guru Ji ordered his Khalsa to live here amongst everyone else, to marry, to have family, to earn an honest living. You all know that to live in a grihasta jeevan one has to constantly interact with a woman in different forms - his mother, his wife, his daughter. All you women also know that not much harm can be done to a good man by his mother or daughter, but it is the stage of youth and the problems and the enjoyments that come with it, which can either raise a man or drown him into kaamic mud.
Read the whole Artical
www.sikhnet.com
or
www.scribd.com

Reply her back please
Gurfateh

We get a message from Charitropakhyan that we should not have faith in women. They are without character and can get involved
in any vulgar activity for their gain. The poor man(male)is easily fooled for sex.

Guru Nanak said just opposite. He praised women. He gave full respect to the women who produced so many saints and rajas.

I am confused. Who is correct Sri Guru Granth Saheb or Charitropakhyan ???

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

We get a message from Charitropakhyan that we should not have faith in women. They are without character and can get involved
in any vulgar activity for their gain. The poor man(male)is easily fooled for sex.

Guru Nanak said just opposite. He praised women. He gave full respect to the women who produced so many saints and rajas.

I am confused. Who is correct Sri Guru Granth Saheb or Charitropakhyan ???

The answer is clear...who is YOUR GURU ?? SGGS or Charitropakhyaan ??
IF the answer is MY ONE and ONLY.... GURU-SGGS..then period.The buck stops there..otherwise carry on....wondering and in confusion...

To me the Charitars carry one the ancient ANTI-WOMAN tirade prevalent in all socities...hebrerw, islamic, christian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Nordic, scythian, whatever...ALL SOCITIES and CIVILISATIONS despised WOMAN as second class or even worse....GURU NANAK JI came and UPSET the Cart..turned it on its head 360 degrees....and HONOURED WOMAN as never before.......raised WOMAN as HIGH as So kion mandah akheyeah jit jammeh RAJAAN..Mother of KINGS and wife of EMPERORS !!...not just a broken rib of Adam or the juttee (sandal) of Man....or... merely a "field for the seeding of mans seed" as the Bible calls her.

 

[Ishna]

Dhann Dhann Guru Nanaki Ji! Dhann Dhann Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji! wahkaur

 

[roopsidhu]

I totally agree with Giani ji,
We must follow the words of guru and our guru is SGGS ji. So just follow SGGS ji. Not only inrespect of women but for all other aspect of life also, we must follow SGGS ji only. Nothing less and nothing more.
Bhul chuk maaf
Roof sidhu

 

[sachbol]

Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind
Singh ji. Without including his bani he handed over the command to Dhan
Dhan Sri Guru Granth Saheb. He could have included his bani n SGGS but
he did not do so and we do not get his message clearly.

Yes our Guru is Sri Guru Granth Saheb. He has answer to all our doubts.

 

[Ambarsaria]

I believe the thread is about the following,

Charitropakhyan and I

There are pretty philosophical question regardless of authenticity of the writing or whether it belongs to have a spiritual or guiding status in Sikhism.

I pose absolutely hypothetical questions no defence of DG or refutatation of the same as I don't have the calibre to deliver on either of such. So just in humility and trying to understand:

• Do characters stated in the book exist in real life and it so happens none of the respondents have come across such?
• Is it OK in Sikhism to have a dialog about such deficient or others in the context of spirituality?
• Is it OK in Sikhism to have such dialog for Sikh forces encountering multiple enemies both spiritual and worldly?
  • For example it is common practice in Western armies when they get deployed beyond home to warn them of trappings where they may be deployed?
• Are Sikhs so scared that first view of evil talk or visual is going to shatter their spiritual shell?

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[roopsidhu]

SSA to all
Yes SGGS ji is eternal guru but many of us still do not follow SGGS ji. All aspect of life, even , prior to birth and after the death, all are covered by SGGS ji. Then we do not need other books ,references, hearsays and stories to set our path.
Roopsidhu

 

[Ishna]

So Roopsidhu, I'm not sure if you're a Sikh, but if you are, where does that put you with regards to Jaap, Benti Chaupai and Ten Savayya, read every day, sometimes multiple times, by Amritdhari Sikhs?

Ambarsaria: I can see where you're coming from trying to have a rational dialogue about this section of the DG. I appreciate your reference to warning soldiers about potential threats they may encounter in life. The problem exists that Charitropakhyan is such a large section of DG, contains so many stories of the DANGER OF WOMEN (with only a few about the danger of men, or of the helpfulness of women) that it seems to be a very disproportionate warning to me. Also, the content of the stories is very vulgar, and that's fine in context, but I think it would probably serve to get the heart of our naturally red blooded Singh brothers (and some sisters!!! hehe) pumping in the wrong direction, if you get my meaning.

 

[Ambarsaria]

So Roopsidhu, I'm not sure if you're a Sikh, but if you are, where does that put you with regards to Jaap, Benti Chaupai and Ten Savayya, read every day, sometimes multiple times, by Amritdhari Sikhs?

Ambarsaria: I can see where you're coming from trying to have a rational dialogue about this section of the DG. I appreciate your reference to warning soldiers about potential threats they may encounter in life. The problem exists that Charitropakhyan is such a large section of DG, contains so many stories of the DANGER OF WOMEN (with only a few about the danger of men, or of the helpfulness of women) that it seems to be a very disproportionate warning to me.

Also, the content of the stories is very vulgar, and that's fine in context, but I think it would probably serve to get the heart of our naturally red blooded Singh brothers (and some sisters!!! hehe) pumping in the wrong direction, if you get my meaning.

Ishna ji I have not read it myself. I seen snippets. But is suppression the way to expression that people can understand! Is this part of the sexiness of Sikhism that is missing and people look for Kundalini and other such thingies.

I don't want to post any videos for the weak of heart as such videos can be very very bad for spirituality. lollol . For guys, Google " Kundalini Yoga Dance the Chakras" and if you can write down all the importat points at the end of the video.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

I think the central question is: Could the charritars have been penned by Nanak X? It serves one well to read them, all of them, with an analytical eye. And if possible consider the folk tales of Punjab, and the historical accounts of Persian nobility here and there, to make fruitful comparisons. One would be surprised at the similarities.


One of our forum members has for more than a year cast a studiously critical eye during translations of the charritars. Most is in Punjabi, but enough is in English for many to understand. http://thekhalsafauj.blogspot.com/ I may post selections later.

In the face of grungy work, the charritars I mean, one really has no obligation to be neutral :sippingcoffee:

 

[spnadmin]

Ishna ji, in response to your question you may find this interesting, or maybe you have already ready it.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth/36495-dsm-contents.html

 

[Ambarsaria]

I think the central question is: Could the charritars have been penned by Nanak X? It serves one well to read them, all of them, with an analytical eye. And if possible consider the folk tales of Punjab, and the historical accounts of Persian nobility here and there, to make fruitful comparisons. One would be surprised at the similarities.


One of our forum members has for more than a year cast a studiously critical eye during translations of the charritars. Most is in Punjabi, but enough is in English for many to understand. http://thekhalsafauj.blogspot.com/ I may post selections later.

In the face of grungy work, the charritars I mean, one really has no obligation to be neutral :sippingcoffee:

Spnadmin ji thanks. I will check it out.

Is there an official or close translation in English or Punjabi? I remember way back Jaap Sahib was one of the more difficult Gurbanis to comprehend.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[BhagatSingh]

It maybe a totally off-topic or right on the dot depending on how you look at it.


Charitropakhyan and I
We are like diamonds in the sky.

Up above the world so high.
This sounds familiar, you wonder "why?"

You twinkle twinkle little star.
I find myself wondering what you are.

Hahaha! icecreammunda

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Guru Nanak Sahib Ji is our Founder... the Satguru.

If you read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji... you will find that every contributor (even the earlier bhagats and sheikh farid ji) remain within the parameters set out by the Gurbani of Guru Nanak ji. As for the other GURU SAHIBS... all of their Gurbani is EXPANSION of Gurbani of Guru nanak ji. None of the Gurus went a hair-breadth out/or away from the Gurbani of Guru Nanak ji... Sabh te WADDAH... SATGUR.... nanak jin kal raakhee meree says Guru Arjun Ji affirming the fountain head status of SATGUR - meaning TRUTH and GYAAN/Method of reaching TRUTH (sat Truth and GUR Gyaan/Method) Guru Amardass ji delcared..SATGUR..bina hor kachee bani...all bani that doesn't teach us the GUR...Gyaan way..method of TRUTH is Kachee..not worthy of being sung, heard...Kehndeh kacche, sundeh kacheh kachhe aakh vekhanne.. So its said that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Begins with EKOANKAAR....SAT-GUR PARSAAD and the Mool mantar is an exposition of the EKOANKAAR...and the 1429 pages that follow are an exposition of the Mool mantar.

ITS A WAY OF LIFE... Jeewan Jaach... man is Born... EK Oankaar... he goes thru childhood sucking the breast of his mother... drinking milk... into teen-hood... man-hood... married life... old age... and dies... and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is ARRANGED IN THAT FASHION...the Very Last Final Nauvehn Mahlaleh de Slok read at every BHOG..portray the Gurus anguish that the LIFE BOOK is about to CLOSE..its the Final Chapter..and SOME have NOT YET got the Message...they have wasted their lives...READ the Final Lines properly and you get the Message..and for those that USED the TOOLS in the Toolbox to shape and improve their lives..the GURU is HAPPY....Thaal vich teen vastoo paiyeh..all those that ate, chewed properly got the benefits...and the Concluding slok...TERA KITA JATOH NAHIN expresses the Gurus JOY at a Task accomplished..as we feel the same JOY IF we have lived life accordingly...and we go as in..Jab ham ayeh Jagat mehn..HUM ROYEH jaag hasseeh...aisee karnee kargayeeh..HUM HASSEH..jag royeh..WHEN we came into this world..WE CRIED..while the World laughed with joy at our coming....BUT we did so well in life..that when we WENT....we went LAUGHING..while the World CRIED (missing us sorely).

My POINT is..that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a COMPLETE..Sarab kala samraath GURU. No one doubted IF Guru nanak ji was any "less" qualified in any field ?? Did anyone dare say..Guru Arjun Ji was "incomplete/lacking" in warfare skills that Guru hargobind Ji Had ?? Did anyone dare say that Guru Teg bahadur Ji was any lesser than the Guru that was Guru Gobind Singh Ji ?? WHY do people dare to say the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is NOT complete..its lacking ??

These people dare to say that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji only produces "SANTS"....and to get the SIPAHI...we have to OUTSOURCE !! What utter load of Bull-load GOBAR !! Wasnt Bhagat Kabir Ji a SANT-SIPAHI ?? Where did he get his SIPAHINESS when he declared..SOORA so pehchanniah larreh deen ke het...where did Guru nank Ji get his SIPAHINESS in facing babar, the Muslim tyrants, the wily Pandits who devoured HUMANS at night..while holding their noses in public at dead chickens ?? Where did GURU ANGADJI get his sipaheeness at facing the naked drawn sword of Humayun ?? Doesn't it require Massive amounts of SIPAHEENESS to sit on the Sizlling Hot Plate in height of summer and get boiled alive and still declare..tera Bhanna Meetha laggeh har nam padarth nanak manggeh ?? Dos na kahoon dehon ?? How did the Mere halwaiis, cooks, farmers, traders, ordinary folks who declared openly..WE Haven't even seen a knife..much less used one..how are we going to wield SWORDS ?? under Guru Hargobind Ji fight the well trained professional soldiers of Shah Jehan and WIN all 4 battles honorably ?? was it all just "sainthood" and sipahi valour ?? How much Sipahiness did the 2000 horse men of Guru Har rai ji have ?? How much sipahiness did Bhai mati Dass ji have to be SAWED ALIVE singing the JAPJI...or Bhai Dyala boiled to DEATH singing the Japji..Bhai Sati dass burnt alive singing the Japji....JAPJI SAHIB is the SANT....and the SAW is the SIPAHI...the Fire..the boiling water....all the Sipahi side...woven into the SIKH FABRIC BY GURU NANAK JI SAHIB FROM DAY ONE !! BHAGAUTII KA RAANG..colour of VALOUR...

How come NOW people dare to question the Completeness of the GURU..Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. On one hand we have Charlatans like the nanaksariah saadhs who insist on "seeing and even feeding" Guru Nanak ji OUT of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with their "praying powers".."Haatth"...comparable to Bhagat Dhanna Ji getting his god to come out of a STONE to drink milk...they degrade the ETERNAL GURU Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to a mere "book/stone" that has to emerge from it a living Guru to drink their milk....

OTHER charlatans insist on "seeing" the Living GURU GOBIND SINGH riding about on His horse at hemkunt..or waiting at hazoor Sahib to grab His Singh's hair...WHY ?? isn't the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji sarab kala smarath complete GURU ?? why do we still need the HUMANS to RETURN ?? why the need ?? I can understand the namdharees doing this..they need the FICTION of "RESURRECTION OF GGS" to feed their own living dehdahree GURUs existence and legitimacy....IF they declare total belief in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..their living human guru does a natural death....so they CANT..BUT why other SIKHS do this to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ???

2. HUMANS like you and me made the SRM in 1945 and included banis and left out some..and other humans like you and me can sit down and do the same once more...in 1935 resources were limited..times were different..now its the 3rd millinuem.science etc have made great advances..we have better resources..better tools to judge and make decisions..if anything wrong with 1935..can be corrected..and amended..in fact this AMENDMENT PROVISION is right there in SRM and it has been amended several times already.......MAIN POINT IS TO REMAIN UNDER AGEIS OF Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...THE PANTH CANNOT CHANGE A SINGLE WORD IN THE Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..NOT EVEN A FULL STOP. SOME DERAWALLAHS AND TAKSALS HAVE CHANGED THE JAPJI SAHIB BY REMOVING THE FOUR DANDEES THAT DELIENATE THE MOOL MANTAR FROM THE OPENING SLOK. THIS IS A SACRILIGE EQUIVALENT OT THE ONE DONE BY RAM RAI...( The TWO Dandees in front of JAP and two dandees after it are INCONVENIENT to these people...becasue they would like to see them disappear !!! { [[ JAP ]] } THESE FOUR DANDEES indicate a BOUNDARY...a STOP at GURPARSAAD..which these people don't want to believe in....so they remove the offending dandees !! Indicates to what lengths unscrupulous people can go to to put across their invalid points.

 

[Ishna]

If the suggestion that we should consider removing nitnem prayers which are located within DG, from future SRMs? Replaced with some different bania from SGGS?

No one will answer this question directly for me. I understand why - it would ruin one's reputation within the online Sikh community.

Perhaps I should run an anonymous poll.

Spnadmin: yes, I have already read that post. And I'm driving myself nuts looking for another post on DG I read here a few weeks ago... I desperately want to find it... it was by a member I don't recognise with rather poor English, and he listed a bunch of holy books belonging to some group, and that they had accepted SGGS as their 9th book, and curiously enough the DG was accepted after SGGS... Making it conveniently the TENTH BOOK. So it's not called Dasam Granth because it was "written by the tenth Guru", it is simply the tenth in the series for that group.

I think I was looking for posts related to AKJ or the srigurugranthsahib.com people.