Claims In The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Are False
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Is it where the next 1 starts again? Because there are several in the above... but it seems like still the same subject. I just kind of looked where the subject changed. I don't really know the numbering system.
I think it is better to open the Ang or Shabad on srigranth.org and paste link here.
- Jul 20, 2012
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Its a rule to post the full shabad on here... but I agree it makes it difficult to contiue the discussion...
Anyway back to the question from Ishna Ji, Nargun / Sargun are not separate *things* they are in fact both Creator. Akal Purakh is Nirgun - Formless state where everything is One. And Sargun Form is expression of that ONE - Gurbani likens it to a dream which is why I compared it to one as well... not that it's literally a dream but that it gives us a reference so we can at least comprehend the point... As a dream is inward consciously created reality, where in a very real sense we create form (our dream) from formless (our own consciousness) and the dream is every bit as real as this world when we are immersed within it. There is space in the dream, three dimensions, a time line, things feel tangible to us while in the dream. And the dream is not something separate from our consciousness. The dream is as much us, as the waking consciousness is. They are not two *separate* things, but instead they are just different aspects of the same ONE thing.
And our consciousness pervades every aspect of the dream. You could say our own dream is the sargun form of our nirgun formless consciousness... and it gives a kind of understanding to us in human terms though not saying reality is literally a dream.
Anyway back to the question from Ishna Ji, Nargun / Sargun are not separate *things* they are in fact both Creator. Akal Purakh is Nirgun - Formless state where everything is One. And Sargun Form is expression of that ONE - Gurbani likens it to a dream which is why I compared it to one as well... not that it's literally a dream but that it gives us a reference so we can at least comprehend the point... As a dream is inward consciously created reality, where in a very real sense we create form (our dream) from formless (our own consciousness) and the dream is every bit as real as this world when we are immersed within it. There is space in the dream, three dimensions, a time line, things feel tangible to us while in the dream. And the dream is not something separate from our consciousness. The dream is as much us, as the waking consciousness is. They are not two *separate* things, but instead they are just different aspects of the same ONE thing.
And our consciousness pervades every aspect of the dream. You could say our own dream is the sargun form of our nirgun formless consciousness... and it gives a kind of understanding to us in human terms though not saying reality is literally a dream.
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- May 9, 2006
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Sadly for me the dream analogy does not compute. That is my failing. I can't get away from the idea that a dream is still entirely false, yet this is all literally real.
Would you say 'imagination' is the same as 'dream', in your analogy?
Happily, Gurbani provides other analogies as well, like bubble/wave in ocean, which is more the language of my small mind.
It is mind-boggling and awe-inspiring that our "God" is at the same time the Nothing and the Something. Nothing else can exist that isn't of It; there is no other place because this is all within It. What a perfect basis for a complete ethical system encompassing human, animal, environmental and even alien and other-worldly or even other-dimensional life or creation. Even if we were sucked into a trans-dimensional portal like the old TV show "Sliders" and existed in the same 'time and space' as our other-dimensional counterparts, we would *still* be within Akaal Purakh. We *are* Akaal Purakh, like you say. There is no-one else. Wow!
Our distinctiveness shouldn't come between the essence of our relationship though, bhainji. We are both still Sikh and both still essentially have full faith in Ik Onkar - One Universal Creative Force.
Would you say 'imagination' is the same as 'dream', in your analogy?
Happily, Gurbani provides other analogies as well, like bubble/wave in ocean, which is more the language of my small mind.
It is mind-boggling and awe-inspiring that our "God" is at the same time the Nothing and the Something. Nothing else can exist that isn't of It; there is no other place because this is all within It. What a perfect basis for a complete ethical system encompassing human, animal, environmental and even alien and other-worldly or even other-dimensional life or creation. Even if we were sucked into a trans-dimensional portal like the old TV show "Sliders" and existed in the same 'time and space' as our other-dimensional counterparts, we would *still* be within Akaal Purakh. We *are* Akaal Purakh, like you say. There is no-one else. Wow!
Our distinctiveness shouldn't come between the essence of our relationship though, bhainji. We are both still Sikh and both still essentially have full faith in Ik Onkar - One Universal Creative Force.
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- Jul 20, 2012
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Ishna Ji, have you read the article posted in articles section about illusion and matter? It might help you understand why I use the dream analogy better. Basically it comes down to the only thing being 'real' IS thought!! All this is NOT real. At least in a physical sense. Matter is just energy vibrating slowly...
Quoted from that article "One minute we are holding a physical object in our hand, like a coin, and then the next minute we realize that if we were to focus in on the coins material substance with an atomic microscope, we would see that we are actually holding nothing."
Thought is the only real thing. If this is so... as quantum physics suggests (because even our brains are made up of 'nothing' when you focus in on the brain's matter with the same atomic microscope) then thought can be the only real thing. Observance by a consciousness is what allows this reality to exist. Same as in a dream. So yes thought / dreams are the same thing. Well, dreams are created BY thought. Once you understand that matter really is not physical at all, then is it much of a stretch to think this world too is a dream of sorts?? Or one big thought??
Remember these theories are coming from scientists... physicists... majority of whom are not even Sikh. What do we do when scientists are the ones telling us that the physicality of matter is an illusion, that reality 'disappears' when you zoom in to the sub atomic level and all that's left are vortices of energy which are invisible and essentially when you zoom in on anything that you think is real in this world, you will see it is in fact, nothingness. The metaphor of the dream fits, because it's as if the dreamer awakens inside the dream, when he/she realizes that the dream elements are not true. The dream IS true in the sense that it IS a creation... inside YOU. But it's not physical. We are starting through since to see this world is also not physical!
So why do you think something needs to be physical to be considered real anyway??
Quoted from that article "One minute we are holding a physical object in our hand, like a coin, and then the next minute we realize that if we were to focus in on the coins material substance with an atomic microscope, we would see that we are actually holding nothing."
Thought is the only real thing. If this is so... as quantum physics suggests (because even our brains are made up of 'nothing' when you focus in on the brain's matter with the same atomic microscope) then thought can be the only real thing. Observance by a consciousness is what allows this reality to exist. Same as in a dream. So yes thought / dreams are the same thing. Well, dreams are created BY thought. Once you understand that matter really is not physical at all, then is it much of a stretch to think this world too is a dream of sorts?? Or one big thought??
Remember these theories are coming from scientists... physicists... majority of whom are not even Sikh. What do we do when scientists are the ones telling us that the physicality of matter is an illusion, that reality 'disappears' when you zoom in to the sub atomic level and all that's left are vortices of energy which are invisible and essentially when you zoom in on anything that you think is real in this world, you will see it is in fact, nothingness. The metaphor of the dream fits, because it's as if the dreamer awakens inside the dream, when he/she realizes that the dream elements are not true. The dream IS true in the sense that it IS a creation... inside YOU. But it's not physical. We are starting through since to see this world is also not physical!
So why do you think something needs to be physical to be considered real anyway??
- May 9, 2006
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Scientifically, I understand what you're saying about the essential 'nothingness' of matter. What I struggle with is how that relates to our human experience and Sikhi. Regardless of the science behind everything, we find ourselves right here, right now, experiencing this condition of physicality. We are limited in our understanding and knowledge by our human senses.
For example, when you talk about hearing the anhat shabad with your ears in silence, you may only be hearing one section of that sound, because our ears can only hear one range of sound. And if you want to get philosophical about it, you could argue that our perception of sound is as unique to each of us as our perception of colour and taste could be - there is no way to know whether what you see as 'red' is the same as what I see as 'red'.
On the plane last night, I was looking out the window. Having just read the other article you posted quoting Niels Bohr, I found myself pondering the infinite reductability of things. Then, from being so high up in the plane, I wondered if we'd reach the same conclusion by looking into the core of things, as we would if we looked at the totality of things. Perhaps this is all contained in a marble being played with by giants.
You would need to define 'real' for me to answer this question. I could flip it back to you and ask why it needs to be non-physical to be considered "real"? Just because the Creator manipulates energy into matter, who are we to say that It's Creation is unreal? It's just ephemeral, that's all.
For example, when you talk about hearing the anhat shabad with your ears in silence, you may only be hearing one section of that sound, because our ears can only hear one range of sound. And if you want to get philosophical about it, you could argue that our perception of sound is as unique to each of us as our perception of colour and taste could be - there is no way to know whether what you see as 'red' is the same as what I see as 'red'.
On the plane last night, I was looking out the window. Having just read the other article you posted quoting Niels Bohr, I found myself pondering the infinite reductability of things. Then, from being so high up in the plane, I wondered if we'd reach the same conclusion by looking into the core of things, as we would if we looked at the totality of things. Perhaps this is all contained in a marble being played with by giants.
You would need to define 'real' for me to answer this question. I could flip it back to you and ask why it needs to be non-physical to be considered "real"? Just because the Creator manipulates energy into matter, who are we to say that It's Creation is unreal? It's just ephemeral, that's all.
- Jul 11, 2012
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ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਲਖ ਦਰੀਆਉ ॥
Hundreds of thousands of rivers began to flow.
I think it's funny the writer drew on this passage; I think it is one of the key teachings of Guru Granth Sahib. If we contemplate what all is contained in the concept of 'Word', there really is no controversy.
Science has long ago begun acknowledging that our universe is not indeed 'matter' but rather vibrations in various visible and invisible frequencies. 'Word' is creative vibration. There's no reason this must be at odds with science.
I think it's a bit haughty and silly to cite the current stance of scientific theory as 'the truth', as the writer does, as if we've finally got this whole thing figured out.
As the Guru says,
ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥
पाताला पाताल लख आगासा आगास ॥
Pāṯālā pāṯāl lakẖ āgāsā āgās.
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.
ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਕ ਵਾਤ ॥
ओड़क ओड़क भालि थके वेद कहनि इक वात ॥
Oṛak oṛak bẖāl thake veḏ kahan ik vāṯ.
The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary.
ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ॥
सहस अठारह कहनि कतेबा असुलू इकु धातु ॥
Sahas aṯẖārah kahan kaṯebā asulū ik ḏẖāṯ.
The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe.
ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥
लेखा होइ त लिखीऐ लेखै होइ विणासु ॥
Lekẖā ho▫e ṯa likī▫ai lekẖai ho▫e viṇās.
If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it.
ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੨੨॥
नानक वडा आखीऐ आपे जाणै आपु ॥२२॥
Nānak vadā ākẖī▫ai āpe jāṇai āp. ||22||
O Nanak, call Him Great! He Himself knows Himself. ||22||
Panna 5
Please please please post full shabads or full paurhis/stanzas as I have done above. -Ishna
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਲਖ ਦਰੀਆਉ ॥
Hundreds of thousands of rivers began to flow.
I think it's funny the writer drew on this passage; I think it is one of the key teachings of Guru Granth Sahib. If we contemplate what all is contained in the concept of 'Word', there really is no controversy.
Science has long ago begun acknowledging that our universe is not indeed 'matter' but rather vibrations in various visible and invisible frequencies. 'Word' is creative vibration. There's no reason this must be at odds with science.
I think it's a bit haughty and silly to cite the current stance of scientific theory as 'the truth', as the writer does, as if we've finally got this whole thing figured out.
As the Guru says,
ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥
पाताला पाताल लख आगासा आगास ॥
Pāṯālā pāṯāl lakẖ āgāsā āgās.
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.
ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਕ ਵਾਤ ॥
ओड़क ओड़क भालि थके वेद कहनि इक वात ॥
Oṛak oṛak bẖāl thake veḏ kahan ik vāṯ.
The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary.
ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ॥
सहस अठारह कहनि कतेबा असुलू इकु धातु ॥
Sahas aṯẖārah kahan kaṯebā asulū ik ḏẖāṯ.
The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe.
ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥
लेखा होइ त लिखीऐ लेखै होइ विणासु ॥
Lekẖā ho▫e ṯa likī▫ai lekẖai ho▫e viṇās.
If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it.
ਨਾਨਕ ਵਡਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਆਪੁ ॥੨੨॥
नानक वडा आखीऐ आपे जाणै आपु ॥२२॥
Nānak vadā ākẖī▫ai āpe jāṇai āp. ||22||
O Nanak, call Him Great! He Himself knows Himself. ||22||
Panna 5
Please please please post full shabads or full paurhis/stanzas as I have done above. -Ishna
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- Jul 20, 2012
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For me, it doesn't... I consider BOTH physical and non-physical to be the same thing! Physical is just the non-physical in a slowed state of vibration! Just like I consider my dreams to be real as well! Try telling me while I am in the dream world that it isn't real!! While in there, I am operating through a physical body, much like this one! There are trees, rocks, a sky etc. And they all appear just as real! If I pick a rock up in my dream, it feels the same to me in the dream as picking a rock up here does!
In reality however, there is no rock! There is no hand etc. (much like this world!!) It's all electrical signals being processed by my consciousness. In fact what you 'see' is not actually what's out there either... received signals, are sent as electrical waves to your brain where it's processed in the back of your head (occipital region) which sits forever in complete darkness!! The light entering your eyes, never makes it to the back of your head... so where is the light you 'see' actually coming from?? It's an illusion. Everything you 'see' is actually inside your mind!! So who is to say that a dream is any less real? It's just happening in some different place! If our consciousness can affect and even create the physical world around us (as proven by quantum physics) then why can't we also create on another level? The dream world could be very much as real as this one, only taking place on some different level of existence. Layers upon layers, worlds upon worlds...
Look at the quote Brother Onam posted above:
ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.
How it affects us? We are obviously here for a reason... we CHOSE this separation for a reason... there is something that only through duality can we realize...
- May 9, 2006
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Forgive me...
Are they both unreal illusions?
I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying, actually. This was the key sentence for me:
I alluded to this in an earlier post, whilst comparing sound to colour, and that we can never really know if what I perceive as 'red' is what you perceive as 'red'. I completely agree with you that what we 'see' is not what is actually out there - we see what and how we have evolved to see.
Because what we 'see' is how our brains process external stimuli. We can use other instruments to verify the existence of light as a form of radiation. We can even tell where the frequency of the light places its 'colour' on the spectrum. Dreams are generated within the mind, not from external stimuli - that's what makes them less 'real'.
We didn't choose - Akaal Purakh did
You're answered this already - we are here so Akaal Purakh can experience Itself.
It is only duality if your perspective is compartmentalizing everything. Ultimately, any kind of divisions - scientific or social - are irrelevant because whether this is all an 'illusion' or not, it is *all* within Akaal Purakh, it is all make out of Akaal Purakh, because there can be no other place, and there is no other.
Panna 475
Are they both unreal illusions?
I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying, actually. This was the key sentence for me:
I alluded to this in an earlier post, whilst comparing sound to colour, and that we can never really know if what I perceive as 'red' is what you perceive as 'red'. I completely agree with you that what we 'see' is not what is actually out there - we see what and how we have evolved to see.
Because what we 'see' is how our brains process external stimuli. We can use other instruments to verify the existence of light as a form of radiation. We can even tell where the frequency of the light places its 'colour' on the spectrum. Dreams are generated within the mind, not from external stimuli - that's what makes them less 'real'.
We didn't choose - Akaal Purakh did
You're answered this already - we are here so Akaal Purakh can experience Itself.
It is only duality if your perspective is compartmentalizing everything. Ultimately, any kind of divisions - scientific or social - are irrelevant because whether this is all an 'illusion' or not, it is *all* within Akaal Purakh, it is all make out of Akaal Purakh, because there can be no other place, and there is no other.
Panna 475
- Jul 20, 2012
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Ahhh but since ALL is frequency... which we have already proven, and dreams are but another frequency, are they really any less real?? Brainwaves are measurable by EEG as frequency. Light, radiation, sound, heat, electromagnetism, and even thought... are all frequency. All just vibration. Take the lowest slowest vibrations, which is sound... and simply by visualizing different frequencies, you can actually see more and more complex forms arising - complex shapes which have emerged throughout history in the form of sacred geometry... As the frequency increases, so does the complexity of the geometry. Dreams/ thought are no less real than a coin you hold in your hand. The coin, when you focus to subatomic level, is really just energy vortices... invisible, and vibrating at their own frequency.
Thought and matter are not two separate things! Therefore, our dreams are just as real!
Guess what... your brain too.... disappears when you focus into that level! Just invisible vibrating energy. Your thoughts, and your brain, and your dreams, and the coin are all the exact same thing. Energy. Conscious energy.
Ahhh but there really is no 'external stimuli' all that external stimuli is just energy vibrating slowly and you are tuned into it. There is no internal vs external... there only 'is'
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” - Albert Einstein
“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.” - Nikola Tesla
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Scientists (ones who are trying to find limits from the smaller and bigger perspective) are seeking so as the religious person. But former seeks to say 'I did it' (seeking would never be complete) and later seeks to say 'Everything is nothing but him' (that is the goal).
Author says 'We CAN perceive these expanding limits, in fact we have, and we know that The Universe is 13.7 billion years old with an increasing rate of accuracy.'
'expanding limits' implies universe is inside something else, perhaps another universe, this is called self similar composition, also called 'FRACTALS'. (Search on you tube to be amazed about Creators creation).
Scientists don't even know anything what 95% of observable universe is made of (they named it dark matter).
Author says 'We CAN perceive these expanding limits, in fact we have, and we know that The Universe is 13.7 billion years old with an increasing rate of accuracy.'
'expanding limits' implies universe is inside something else, perhaps another universe, this is called self similar composition, also called 'FRACTALS'. (Search on you tube to be amazed about Creators creation).
Scientists don't even know anything what 95% of observable universe is made of (they named it dark matter).
- Jul 20, 2012
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Actually there IS a way which something can expand and still not be within something else (in the sense of space anyway).
If the Universe is really manifest out of thought (as suggested by the double slit experiment, which shows us that as an electron can behave as either a wave or a particle, but the mere act of conscious observation, is what collapses the wave function, essentially turning the electron from something intangible - a wave has no substance of itself, but is just energy travelling through a medium - to something tangible in the form of a particle of matter). This suggests that consciousness IS the base of the Universe and exists outside of the constructs of space / time in a quantum state.
Now lets imagine the world is like a dream (and Gurbani uses the comparison as well) When you dream at night, how can you quantify how 'large' that dream world is? You can't measure it as tangible space from outside of it, and from within it, the only way you can see how far it goes, is to look further. Well, since the dream is essentially created AS YOU DREAM IT, that means the mere act of LOOKING further, causes more dreamworld to be created! It has been suggested the Universe is similar. So maybe our (collective) consciousness peering further and further, actually creates the reality that shows us more. In other words maybe 13.7 billion light years is as far as we can look (or have looked so far). Maybe the next milestone will be when we discover what lies beyond that.... And maybe that is not yet created by our collective (ONE Universal) Consciousness?
I want to include a somewhat creepy claymation from Adventures of Mark Twain. I saw this years ago but never noticed the final words of the 'Satan' character. Listen to the whole thing as it speaks about the futility of our greed, war, etc. and even how dispoable 'we' (as characters) are. But his final words about the nature of reality gave me goosebumps when I had seen this again recently....
(I know the video is not Sikh related but the same concept is there... just goes to show that science - quantum physics, philosophy, Gurbani, other spiritual paths... all seem to be pointing to this truth about reality - and then there is this children's claymation that I don't think anyone really ever analyzed closely before)
@Brother Onam
@Original
Just wondering what your input is on that video? Do you think they were trying to get the same message across about the nature of the Universe being vibration / thought?
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I agree with you. I agree with Mark that we are only a thought because evolution (Waheguru is one who modeled and initiated this process) has instilled in us panj vikar and one of them (hau-mainn) creates this thought ('me' which give rise to illusion of relations of a person to others persons and things).
But he also said its all emptiness (contrary to sikhism) but in fact according to gurbani we are 'akaal purkh's' jot and this creation is also true because he is true.
Suhi Mahalla 5
Satgur paas benantya mile naam aadhara!! Tutha sacha patshah taap gaya sansara!! Bhagta ki tek tu santa ki ot tu sacha sirjanhara!! Rahao!!
Sach teri samagri sach tera darbara!!
Sach tere khajinia sach tera pasara!! Tera roop agam hai anup tera darsara!! Hao kurbane tere sewka jin har naam pyara!! Sabe iicha purya ja paya agam apara!! Guru Nanak milya parbrahm terya charna ko balihara!!
Our knowledge (not observation) is what is creating the unobserved universe, this just not only imply that space and matter is created but also the unrecorded history is rewritten to establish the causality according to our objective knowledge. Have a look at the thought experiment at the end of video and at 9:00,
.
I think about it like this, like a creator of game or a movie, akaal purkh (being "Trikale") can edit the causality of unrecorded or unknown knowledge by changing factors in the past and similarly shape our future.
But he also said its all emptiness (contrary to sikhism) but in fact according to gurbani we are 'akaal purkh's' jot and this creation is also true because he is true.
Suhi Mahalla 5
Satgur paas benantya mile naam aadhara!! Tutha sacha patshah taap gaya sansara!! Bhagta ki tek tu santa ki ot tu sacha sirjanhara!! Rahao!!
Sach teri samagri sach tera darbara!!
Sach tere khajinia sach tera pasara!! Tera roop agam hai anup tera darsara!! Hao kurbane tere sewka jin har naam pyara!! Sabe iicha purya ja paya agam apara!! Guru Nanak milya parbrahm terya charna ko balihara!!
Our knowledge (not observation) is what is creating the unobserved universe, this just not only imply that space and matter is created but also the unrecorded history is rewritten to establish the causality according to our objective knowledge. Have a look at the thought experiment at the end of video and at 9:00,
I think about it like this, like a creator of game or a movie, akaal purkh (being "Trikale") can edit the causality of unrecorded or unknown knowledge by changing factors in the past and similarly shape our future.
- Jul 20, 2012
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Thanks for the input yes I have seen that video before as well! All of these show that matter and space/time are only constructs. All is actually thought. It also begs the question, are we really in control of our own decisions and actions? Gurbani says that all is Waheguru we do nothing and these experiments seem to suggest that. In studies of the brain, where a decision is made they discovered that the brain already had the answer long before the person thought they actually came to the decision. Sometimes by up to 7 seconds. So was the person making the decision or only under the illusion that they made it?
I think our mind or 'mat' is influenced by 'Guns/Auguns' which stereotypes particular facts in memory or even stereotypes our perception to create particular thoughts. This stereotyping affects our impulsive reaction generated by our unconscious mind.
BHARIYE MAT PAAPAA KAE SANG OH DHOPAE NAAVAE KAE RANG
When the mind becomes polluted by evil thoughts and deeds, it is cleaned by meditating on God’s Name with love and devotion.
TITHAE GHARIAE SURAT MAT MAN BUDH,
There (in this stage of spiritual hard work), a person molds his conscience, mind, soul, and intellect
On the other hand, our intellect ('budh') can reason on those thoughts if we are conscious enough ('Bibek budh') about our actions (karams) and tell us (to our 'mann') to follow those thoughts. If we have knowledge about gurbani (because we did good karam before) or gur'mat' i.e. to create good thoughts, then our intellect will also try to consider that while making decision for our 'mann'. Depending on how much devotion ( we have towards following the gurbani and how much nirmal (self-deprecation) is our mann) our mann will then decide on particular action (karam).
AHRAN MAT VED HATHIAAR
Let your mind be the anvil, knowledge your hammer (awaken your mind by sharpening it with spiritual knowledge).
If we blindly follows the bad thoughts created by our 'mann' we can say that our 'atma' or 'zameer' is dead or we are manmukh.
Have a look at determinism vs free will (philosophy) on you tube, where they argue we do not have free will. All our actions are result of our beliefs (knowledge of ourself and others), desire and temptations.
Gurbani tells us how to how to get rid of this karam chakar or deterministic nature of our mind
Mann jeete jag jeet
Karam karat hovai nihkaram
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.
tis baisno kaa nirmal Dharam
Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;
so pandit jo man parboDhai
He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.
raam naam aatam meh soDhai.
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.
jap jan sadaa sadaa din rainee.
Meditate on Him forever and ever, day and night.
sabh tay ooch "nirmal" ih karnee.
This way of life is exalted and immaculate.
When we do "nirmal" or "nihkaram", our mind will not be influenced by either the pride ("hau-main") that we did something good (so we deserve something).
BHARIYE MAT PAAPAA KAE SANG OH DHOPAE NAAVAE KAE RANG
When the mind becomes polluted by evil thoughts and deeds, it is cleaned by meditating on God’s Name with love and devotion.
TITHAE GHARIAE SURAT MAT MAN BUDH,
There (in this stage of spiritual hard work), a person molds his conscience, mind, soul, and intellect
On the other hand, our intellect ('budh') can reason on those thoughts if we are conscious enough ('Bibek budh') about our actions (karams) and tell us (to our 'mann') to follow those thoughts. If we have knowledge about gurbani (because we did good karam before) or gur'mat' i.e. to create good thoughts, then our intellect will also try to consider that while making decision for our 'mann'. Depending on how much devotion ( we have towards following the gurbani and how much nirmal (self-deprecation) is our mann) our mann will then decide on particular action (karam).
AHRAN MAT VED HATHIAAR
Let your mind be the anvil, knowledge your hammer (awaken your mind by sharpening it with spiritual knowledge).
If we blindly follows the bad thoughts created by our 'mann' we can say that our 'atma' or 'zameer' is dead or we are manmukh.
Have a look at determinism vs free will (philosophy) on you tube, where they argue we do not have free will. All our actions are result of our beliefs (knowledge of ourself and others), desire and temptations.
Gurbani tells us how to how to get rid of this karam chakar or deterministic nature of our mind
Mann jeete jag jeet
Karam karat hovai nihkaram
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.
tis baisno kaa nirmal Dharam
Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;
so pandit jo man parboDhai
He is a true Pandit, a religious scholar, who instructs his own mind.
raam naam aatam meh soDhai.
He searches for the Lord's Name within his own soul.
jap jan sadaa sadaa din rainee.
Meditate on Him forever and ever, day and night.
sabh tay ooch "nirmal" ih karnee.
This way of life is exalted and immaculate.
When we do "nirmal" or "nihkaram", our mind will not be influenced by either the pride ("hau-main") that we did something good (so we deserve something).
- Apr 8, 2012
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SGGs is a poetry book. The meanings reflect what the state of the mind of the reader is. Mr bayan does not know punjabi or the spiritual poetry. he read someone else's translation and then put his scientific results. First he should concentrate in his mind and then read sggs find his own meanings and then comment. It is easy to blame others on hear say but hard to do on your own and with your own mind. I would not mind discussing it with mr bayan or any other critic. God did not defuse light in all the planets as some say sun abides in the moon. To me it says that sun gives light to moon but mr Bayan or the other critics do not know the meanings but write what they hear or read some one else's writing who in the first place did not know how to interpret or find the meanings.
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