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Contradictions Of Opinion

spnadmin

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Jun 17, 2004
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Carolineislands ji

Are you asking the question about "ritual" from the point of view of history/cultural practice and tradition or in the sense of spiritual practice? Not that two are not related. But I had the sense that you were asking about historical accounts of religious practices -- i.e., liturgies of the time versus post 1699. That may help move the question along.
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
It's a resonance of the whole body, subtle sheaths of body, mind and soul with the very God. By bringing the intensity of meditation and life energy and consciousness into awareness and praise of the God, the body becomes a tool of liberation. Gurmantra is infused with the power of jyot and Gurshabad. It is the very essence of Guruji's presence, light and sound. And the Gurmantra once implanted within with Naam drihr is a power and presence infused into your consciousness, into your being. It is shaktipat transmission. Naam japna, saas giras simran is the technique to begin vibrating that energy and moving it through your whole being, upwards, and inwards to the dasm duar. So it is an aliveness, activation of energy rather than a ritual. It is the most active and aware form of prayer.

I agree. This level of connection with the Beloved can be found in other traditions as well, and in those traditions it is also one of the most active and aware forms of prayer.

As for terminology, the terms "ritual" and "custom" are interchangable in some instances. I think the point that everybody is trying to make is that japna is not a MEANINGLESS practice. I suppose like anything else it could become meaningless if a person's mind was wandering and they were simply repeating words, but then they would not reach this level of consciousness you speak of here.
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
in sikhi, the word ritual is used to refer to meaningless or repetitive acts that do not keep God in mind.

no, there are no rituals in sikhi, if you can manage to go by the sikh usage of the word. you simply cannot describe Sikhi from the point of view of a christian/westerner.

You said yourself that the point was whether or not the ritual was meaningless. And frankly, trying invalidate every point I make that you don't agree with by asserting that it's some sort of Christian point of view is just another way of poisoning the well. My Christian background has nothing to do with it. If I see a donkey standing in the road and you think it's a horse I think you'd say I thought it was a donkey because Mary rode one to Bethlehem. No -- it's either a donkey or a horse and neither or our prior religions have anything to do with it. Please don't do that to me. Harjas just put a definition of ritual that matches mine -- is that because she is coming from a Christian/Western point of view? No -- it's the definition.

and i find your insinuation that i "play games" here extremely insulting. i'm an open book. my honesty gets me in far too much trouble. i'm not nearly clever enough to "play games". if i were, do you think i'd be jumped on so often?

Ooops. I was hoping that sort of friendly jibing might lighten things up but I guess it didn't work. I apologize for that. But in all fairness, wasn't it your term in the first place? Why is it only "playing games" if someone is doing it?

And I haven't observed you getting "jumped on." Everybody gets confronted on this forum -- that's because it's a discussion/debate forum. I don't think you get it any more than anybody else. I feel that you and Harjas are rather confrontational with me and that you both unfairly use my prior religion as a way of discrediting some of my arguments. But hey -- that's a debate forum. And although I don't think it's exactly fair play, I don't think you're jumping on me.

I think we're all trying to have a discussion here. And if I was too aggressive I apologize. I will be more conscientious in the future.
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
Carolineislands ji

Are you asking the question about "ritual" from the point of view of history/cultural practice and tradition or in the sense of spiritual practice? Not that two are not related. But I had the sense that you were asking about historical accounts of religious practices -- i.e., liturgies of the time versus post 1699. That may help move the question along.

At the risk of offending anyone, I would like to know about the changes in Sikhi or the structure of religious practices throughout the history of the faith. How did things change with Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa? When did most of the changes happen and what circumstances surrounded the change? When did the religion become structured, so to speak... or what one might call and "organized" religion?

Please, if this question offends you, just try to ignore it. I really am curious about these changes.
 
Apr 4, 2007
934
29
You said yourself that the point was whether or not the ritual was meaningless. And frankly, trying invalidate every point I make that you don't agree with by asserting that it's some sort of Christian point of view is just another way of poisoning the well. My Christian background has nothing to do with it. If I see a donkey standing in the road and you think it's a horse I think you'd say I thought it was a donkey because Mary rode one to Bethlehem. No -- it's either a donkey or a horse and neither or our prior religions have anything to do with it. Please don't do that to me. Harjas just put a definition of ritual that matches mine -- is that because she is coming from a Christian/Western point of view? No -- it's the definition.



Ooops. I was hoping that sort of friendly jibing might lighten things up but I guess it didn't work. I apologize for that. But in all fairness, wasn't it your term in the first place? Why is it only "playing games" if someone is doing it?

And I haven't observed you getting "jumped on." Everybody gets confronted on this forum -- that's because it's a discussion/debate forum. I don't think you get it any more than anybody else. I feel that you and Harjas are rather confrontational with me and that you both unfairly use my prior religion as a way of discrediting some of my arguments. But hey -- that's a debate forum. And although I don't think it's exactly fair play, I don't think you're jumping on me.

I think we're all trying to have a discussion here. And if I was too aggressive I apologize. I will be more conscientious in the future.

i have no issue with your prior religion. i only suggest that you might want to look at things from a different perspective. trying to view sikhi from a purely western perspective can seriously confuse the issues. please do not take the suggestion personally.

btw, your statement about the horse is ridiculous and you know it.
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
i have no issue with your prior religion. i only suggest that you might want to look at things from a different perspective. trying to view sikhi from a purely western perspective can seriously confuse the issues. please do not take the suggestion personally.

btw, your statement about the horse is ridiculous and you know it.

Of course I know it -- that's why I used it. Because I think the suggestion that, by my using the standard definition of an English term, I am viewing Sikhi from a "Christian/western point of view" is equally nonsensical.

But I do apologize for offending you. I really was trying to lighten things up with the :u): and all that. I never meant to suggest that any of the things you do are meaningless. It is very clear to everyone that you are profoundly committed to your faith and deeply in love with your Guru. I admire that very very much.

Please forgive me for offending you.
 
Apr 4, 2007
934
29
At the risk of offending anyone, I would like to know about the changes in Sikhi or the structure of religious practices throughout the history of the faith. How did things change with Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa? When did most of the changes happen and what circumstances surrounded the change? When did the religion become structured, so to speak... or what one might call and "organized" religion?

Please, if this question offends you, just try to ignore it. I really am curious about these changes.


sikhi evolved over the course of the 10 Gurus. Guru Nanak Dev ji started a distinct path when he began preaching against the superstition and useless rituals that were prevalent at the time, instead suggesting we can achieve salvation through meditation on God.

what does it mean to be "organized"? Guru Nanak Dev ji had followers who spread his word and teachings.

Guru Angad gave us a new script, Gurmukhi, in which to write the teachings.

Guru Amar Das institutionalized Langar, making sure that Guru's kitchen was open day and night and made sure that everyone ate as equals, even kings. he also solidified the equality of women, speaking out against Sati and Purdha and began to encourage widow remarriage. he ordered a tank to be dug in what would become Amritsar.

Guru Ram Das began construction of the holy city of Amritsar, sent out many missionaries all over the region to spread the faith. he encouraged people to find god not only through meditation but through active involvement in the joys and sorrows of those around them.

Guru Arjun Dev constructed Harimandir Sahib. he instituted dasvand (giving 10% of the income to the poor). he collected the writings of all of the previous Gurus, as well as his own and those of many bhagats, poets, and saints, and created the Adi Granth (predecessor to SGGS). he began to encouage sikhs to learn horseback riding and weaponry. he was the first Martyr of the Sikh Gurus. (weapons, martyrdom... can you see the khalsa began long before the 10th Guru? :) )

Guru Hargobind emphasized the martial aspect of Sikhi, always carrying two swords, Miri and Piri to represent that sikhs must live both in the spritual and the temporal world. he built the Akal Takht across from Harimandir Sahib as a temporal seat to emphasize this. Guru Hargobind built the first Sikh Army, encouraging gifts of weapons rather than money, teaching his followers to be ready for war. at this point the Sikhs began to fight the oppressive mughal forces.

Guru Har Rai faced the rise of mughal intolerance and during his reign his son, Ram Rai, created the first schism in sikhi by changing gurbani to suit his own needs. when he was disowned, he declaired himself Guru. there are still Gurdwaras in his name in parts of India.

Guru Harkrishan, in his too short life, showed the world the true meaning of seva by caring for the sick of all faiths until he too succumbed to disease and died.

Guru Teg Bahadur increased the military strength of Sikhs and showed that we must fight against oppression, no matter who is being oppressed. he saved the hindus of kashmir from genocide. he opened langar halls and dug wells all across india. he reinforced the notion that God is for everyone, hindu, muslim, and sikh, and that we must not force our beliefs on others. he too was martyred.

and so we come to Guru Gobind Singh ji... as you can see, the evolution of the Sikh faith took 10 Gurus, it didn't suddenly happen with the creation of the Khalsa. the Khalsa was necessary so that Guru sahib could allow the line of human Gurus to end and pass Guruship on to SGGS ji.

every Guru's accomplishments and inventions are merely extensions of what came before. there was not great single event that created the religion.

sorry if this is all old news to you. i was looking for a way to describe the evolution of the faith and this was the best way i could think of to do it.
 
Apr 4, 2007
934
29
Of course I know it -- that's why I used it. Because I think the suggestion that, by my using the standard definition of an English term, I am viewing Sikhi from a "Christian/western point of view" is equally nonsensical.


forgive me, my english isn't all that great. i'm not terribly educated and think with my heart rather than my mind.
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
With all do respect, and I enjoy your lively personality, the wealth of spirituality you bring, and your sincerity... I also believe you approach an understanding of Sikhism from Christian perspective. There's nothing to invalidate in that. But it does mean that you might need to dig a little deeper for the Eastern meanings which are often not the same as the Western ones. please don't take offense, as I too come from Christian background Ji. Just please be patient with all of us as well if something you might make an association with may clang as not right to some of us. We will all share in our best way and come to everybody having a better understanding. ;)
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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With all do respect, and I enjoy your lively personality, the wealth of spirituality you bring, and your sincerity... I also believe you approach an understanding of Sikhism from Christian perspective. There's nothing to invalidate in that. But it does mean that you might need to dig a little deeper for the Eastern meanings which are often not the same as the Western ones. please don't take offense, as I too come from Christian background Ji. Just please be patient with all of us as well if something you might make an association with may clang as not right to some of us. We will all share in our best way and come to everybody having a better understanding. ;)

Wow!!! That's wonderful. So much of knowledge about Sikhism ? You've become my teacher, Harjas Ji. I haven't asked your age - early 30's ? If I guessed right, let me know. It's nice to share info with you and I hope you will participate to give your views about Balbir Singh's posts. Feel free to disagree with anyone including me, coz I'm learning.
 
Feb 14, 2006
512
31
I am 45 yrs, Ji. But I don't only come from Christian background. My family was Christian, but from earliest youth I studied mysticism of many religions. My great-grandmother was an occultist and spiritualist medium who was well known at the time of the early 1900's in her community. I can recognize the yogic practice alluded to in the SGGS Ji more readily than someone who never heard of these things. To some these things are a mystery, what is meant by 9 openings or 10 gates or 27 levels, etc. But those are yogic terms. Dasm Duar and pranayam is spoken of in Bhagavad Gita as means to mukti. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was regarded as a Spiritual Master by yogis and siddhis as evidenced in his dialogues with them in Siddh Gosht.

You can't fully understand Gurbani by completely rejecting yogic philosophy because thats the background and cultural context it's spoken in. Sikhism isn't a rejection of Hindu philosophy, but a rejection of Hindu religion. During time of Kal Yug, to correct errors, Guruji created Sikh Dharam. The Christian Bible is also an extremely mystical document which alludes to yogic concepts. And the field gets muddy if you take into account banned scriptures such as the Gnostic gospels. Tibetan Buddhist Lamas have writings of Jesus preserved, who was to them, Mani of Manicheanism. The Tocharians had fled the Catholic persecution of Manicheans and moved into areas of China and Tibet blending their beliefs with Buddhism. Even the Tocharian language is a blend of Greek, Latin, Turkish and Sanskrit. Manichean Gnosticism had strong influence on Islam and Sufism as well, since the Uighers roamed an area from China, Tibet, Turkey, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Persia (Modern day Iran). Unless someone is familiar with hidden history or occultism they wouldn't be aware of the connections in the mystical literature. "Before converting to Islam, Uyghurs were Manichaeans, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, or NestorianChristians."


200px-CentralAsianBuddhistMonks.JPG
tocharian1mumijebele4ep.th.jpg

Tocharian envoy in ancient China, caucasian mummy from China

0,1886,2334718,00.jpg

Caucasian racial traits among China's blonde Uigher population.

"The alphabet the Tocharians were using is derived from the North Indian Brahmi alphabetic syllabary (abugida) and is referred to as slanting Brahmi. It soon became apparent that a large proportion of the manuscripts were translations of known Buddhist works in Sanskrit and some of them were even bilingual, facilitating decipherment of the new language. Besides the Buddhist and Manichaean religious texts, there were also monastery correspondence and accounts, commercial documents, caravan permits, and medical and magical texts, and one love poem. Many Tocharians embraced Manichaean duality or Buddhism."
Tocharian languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
When you uncover the history, it will come as no surprise to find parallel concepts and relationships among the major world religions. Interestingly it was also Buddhism, Gnostic Christianity as well as Hinduism which influenced the Sufism of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's time. Guru Ji is revered as a spiritual Master by Buddhists today and a saint by Muslims. So Guru Ji was a Master of all these hidden spiritual teachings. And His Masterpiece for the world? Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj.
Drawing from Qur'anic verses, virtually all Sufis distinguish Lataif-e-Sitta (The Six Subtleties), Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi & Akhfa. These lataif (singular : latifa) designate various psychospiritual "organs", or faculties of sensory perception. Sufic development involves the awakening of these spiritual centers of perception that lie dormant in an individual. Each center is associated with a particular color and general area of the body, often with a particular prophet, and varies from order to order. The help of a guide is considered necessary to help activate these centers. After undergoing this process, the dervish is said to reach a certain type of "completion."

The person gets acquainted with the lataif one by one by Muraqaba (Sufi meditation), Dhikr (Remembrance of God) and purification of one's psyche of negative thoughts, emotions, and actions. Loving God and one's fellow, irrespective of his or her race, religion or nationality, and without consideration for any possible reward, is the key to ascension according to Sufis. These six "organs" or faculties: Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi and Akhfa, and the purificative activities applied to them, contain the basic orthodox Sufi philosophy. The purification of the elementary passionate nature (Tazkiya-I-Nafs), followed by cleansing of the spiritual heart so that it may acquire a mirror-like purity of reflection (Tazkiya-I-Qalb) and become the receptacle of God's love (Ishq) and illumination of the spirit (Tajjali-I-Ruh).
We can see from looking at Sufi concepts there is a form of chakra system which is alluded to, chanting the Name of God (Dhikr) as spiritual practice to open spiritual perception, and the requirement of a guide, spiritual Master or Guru to initiate and empower this process.
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We can see a parallel with Naam Simran and Vaheguru Gurmantara in the Sufi practice of Dhikr. Criticisms against Sufism include definitions of God which are not strictly monotheistic, but pantheistic.
"As an example, some critics consider the concept of divine unity Wahdat-ul-wujood equivalent to pantheism and therefore incompatible with Islam." Sufism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Judaism: The ten aspects of the Divine can be described as (also see Sephirah):
  1. Keter (Crown; כתר)
  2. Chokhmah (Wisdom; חכמה)
  3. Binah (Intelligence; בינה)
  4. Chesed or Gedulah (Love or Mercy); חסד)
  5. Din or Gevurah (Power or Judgement); גבורה)
  6. Tifereth or Rakhamim (Compassion); תפארת)
  7. Netzach (Lasting Endurance); נצח)
  8. Hod (Majesty); הוד)
  9. Yesod (Basis or Foundation); יסוד)
  10. Malkuth or Shekinah (Kingdom); מלכות)
Jewish mystical teachings like the Kabbalah even have a form of chakra system. But to understand the mysticism of any religious teaching, first you have to read very carefully. If you're not looking for it, you will entirely miss the occult esoteric core at the heart of mystical religious teachings. Everyone approaches spirituality with their own understanding. No one can invalidate that. But sometimes there are inaccuracies in understanding of terminology, history and context.
"The common core of most religions is devotional mysticism, based on the Sound Current, Word, or Holy Name. It is rooted in meditation (inner journeys) whether it appears in Judaism, Sufism, Tantra, Taoism, etc. While science explores outer phenomena, the field of mysticism explores the inner realms, which can be perceived only by our soul. A study of the different major religions reveals that each has an esoteric core. The essence of each religion is the union of the soul with God."
MYSTICISM IN JUDAISM AND THE KABBALAH
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~John 1:1 (Christian Bible)

~Bhul chak maaf
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Jul 14, 2007
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Drawing from Qur'anic verses, virtually all Sufis distinguish Lataif-e-Sitta (The Six Subtleties), Nafs, Qalb, Ruh, Sirr, Khafi & Akhfa. These lataif (singular : latifa) designate various psychospiritual "organs", or faculties of sensory perception. Sufic development involves the awakening of these spiritual centers of perception that lie dormant in an individual. Each center is associated with a particular color and general area of the body, often with a particular prophet, and varies from order to order. The help of a guide is considered necessary to help activate these centers. After undergoing this process, the dervish is said to reach a certain type of "completion."

When you uncover the history, it will come as no surprise to find parallel concepts and relationships among the major world religions. Interestingly it was also Buddhism, Gnostic Christianity as well as Hinduism which influenced the Sufism of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's time. Guru Ji is revered as a spiritual Master by Buddhists today and a saint by Muslims. So Guru Ji was a Master of all these hidden spiritual teachings. And His Masterpiece for the world? Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj.

This is interesting stuff, Harjas Ji. You've opened a new dimension of priori knowledge to me. Is there a concept of a map - like Begumpura, Amarpur, Mansarovar, etc while one journeys thru these inner realms ?
 

futurekaur

SPNer
Sep 10, 2007
88
7
North Carolina
Buddhism, which I practiced very seriously for about 13 years has a form of nam jaap. Especially the most popular Buddhist sect in the world: Pure Land Buddhism. That's all they do.
Tendai Buddhism which I practiced seriously for 4 years, is an ancient Japanese sect with tantic tradition, works with chakras, Hindu gods, mantras and mudras. Only the initiated receive this; I had to train to be a Buddhist priestess to receive these...it all comes from India.
I left it as you have to give total obedience to your sensei (guru). Why would I do this to a man with obvious flaws and faults?
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Jan 15, 2008
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Kansas & Haiti
Thank you! Interesting that the movements you see in this film are very similar to some movements you see in African American ecstatic worship -- the slight bending and crossing ones arms over the abdomen then standing up and throwing the arms to the sides and back, and pounding the air in front of ones self in an expression of barely contained passion/joy/adoration and thankfulness.

We humans are so much more alike than most of us ever even guess. God bless and forgive us all... When are we going to stop focusing on the differences and hurting, killing, slaughtering each other in the name of the very God that should be binding us together?
 
Jan 15, 2008
282
5
Kansas & Haiti
Whenever I hear people criticizing the manner in which someone expresses their passion or joy towards God I want to say, "Yeah, I bet you act just as stupid when you're making love to your worldly husband!"
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Jul 14, 2007
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Caroline Ji,

There is a consistency in expressing love for God and the love for unity with a spouse. It touches the most natural instinct in all living things. Sex is only one side of it. It is the yeaning to be one with the object of desire. Even when our worldly spouse is next to one, one still has the feeling of separation existing, how then can one get closer to quench this ever-present desire ?
 
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