- Apr 4, 2007
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do you know WHY you do it? does it make sense to you, in your heart to do it? then it's not ritual.
if you do something repeatedly without understanding the meaning behind it, it is ritual.
Contradictions Of Opinion
- Thread starter Astroboy
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do you know WHY you do it? does it make sense to you, in your heart to do it? then it's not ritual.
if you do something repeatedly without understanding the meaning behind it, it is ritual.
Many a times we know what we are doing, and do not like to do but are almost forced to do, is also a ritual. I can quote a few but not on the forum.
However, the dictionary states that ceremony and ritual are synonyms.
rituals of, having the nature of, or done as a rite or rites ritual dances"
Ritual
1 a set form or system of rites, religious or otherwise
2 the observance of set forms or rites, as in public worship
3 a book containing rites or ceremonial forms
4 a practice, service, or procedure done as a rite, especially at regular intervals
5 ritual acts or procedures collectively
—SYN CEREMONY
ritu[ally
adv.
However, the dictionary states that ceremony and ritual are synonyms.
rituals of, having the nature of, or done as a rite or rites ritual dances"
Ritual
1 a set form or system of rites, religious or otherwise
2 the observance of set forms or rites, as in public worship
3 a book containing rites or ceremonial forms
4 a practice, service, or procedure done as a rite, especially at regular intervals
5 ritual acts or procedures collectively
—SYN CEREMONY
ritu[ally
adv.
Coming back to your core question, I shall put it this way. I shall like to enjoy all the ceremonies that I participate in.
It may not be true in the case of rituals. Rest is ,of course, where your mind and heart lead you. it is more of individuals experience. a ritual of liking shall be a ceremony and vice versa should be true as well.
A nice party that you are participating in but not really enjoying for some reason but are forced to be there till it culminates; it shall be a ritual.
It may not be true in the case of rituals. Rest is ,of course, where your mind and heart lead you. it is more of individuals experience. a ritual of liking shall be a ceremony and vice versa should be true as well.
A nice party that you are participating in but not really enjoying for some reason but are forced to be there till it culminates; it shall be a ritual.
- Apr 4, 2007
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in sikhi, the term ritual is usually preceded by "useless". the context is different from the dictionary definition.
I do not think so. Kindly cite a few examples/quotes if you can do 'off the cuff' to clarify as to what exactly is to be conveyed.
This thread is all about contradictions.Your reply is quite in line .Congrats!
jasleen ji....Naam japna is a ritual that every sikh should get engaged in early hours. It is not a ceremony; nor can it ever be as per that I know of semantics.
I hope you want to say that Guru Sahibs thought of the Hindu's or Muslims Practices without knowing as to what they were supposed to know prior to getting engaged should be called as a ritual and should have a silent prefix of 'useless'.
Please confirm.
Sorry, it is 2nd April here in India.
Good day and good night. CU 2morrow
I hope you want to say that Guru Sahibs thought of the Hindu's or Muslims Practices without knowing as to what they were supposed to know prior to getting engaged should be called as a ritual and should have a silent prefix of 'useless'.
Please confirm.
Sorry, it is 2nd April here in India.
Good day and good night. CU 2morrow
- Apr 4, 2007
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it's not a "ritual". it's a form of prayer, meditation, it's like breathing, it's part of life.
yes, as i said before, ritual is when you don't know why you are doing something. if you know why you're doing it, and you agree with it, it's not ritual.
This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Jap on Pannaa 3
ma(n)nai maarag t(h)aak n paae ||
The path of the faithful shall never be blocked.
ma(n)nai path sio paragatt jaae ||
The faithful shall depart with honor and fame.
ma(n)nai mag n chalai pa(n)thh ||
The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.
ma(n)nai dhharam saethee sanaba(n)dhh ||
The faithful are firmly bound to the Dharma.
aisaa naam nira(n)jan hoe ||
Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
jae ko ma(n)n jaanai man koe ||14||
Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||14||
Naam japna, in the present context, has to be looked either as a ceremony or a ritual.This is the context that we should not lose sight of. hence the exercise is to see if the packaging of this could be into ritual or ceremony.
Hence,Your answer, howsoever beautiful, is out of the context and is not fit to enter the discussion platform.
Repeat:
KIndly state whether Naam japna is a ritual or a ceremony.? else we lose the discussion.
- Apr 4, 2007
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i personally do not feel it is either one. for me, it is the air i breathe.
i guess i lose the discussion. that's fine with me.
enjoy!
carolineislands
SPNer
By this logic you could call very few things ritual then. I'm sure the Catholic knows why they are taking communion, bowing before the statues of Jesus and Mary, crossing themselves with Holy Water and all the other things they do the same way every time they reach a certain place and time in the ceremony. The Brahmans probably know why they are being bestowed with a sacred thread, the Wiccans know why they're bowing to the directions and walking widdershins around the sacred circle. You get my drift... The point is that knowing why you're doing something and agreeing with it doesn't really preclude something being a "ritual." Whether or not it is meaningless is entirely a different thing. There again, it would be difficult to say what is meaningless to the person who is performing the ritual.
What rituals did Sikhi have before Guru Gobind Singh?
- Apr 4, 2007
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i'm speaking in context of sikhi.
sikhs don't have meaningless rituals, everything is done for a reason. Guru ji always taught that doing rituals over and over was pointless if you don't keep God in your mind.
sorry if i'm being unclear.
carolineislands
SPNer
I too, am speaking in context of Sikhi. Just because I use a comparison to explain a point doesn't take the discussion out of context. We are talking about ritual and using comparitive examples is a useful way of pointing out the elements of ritual. So, please allow me use relevant comparitive examples when they are helpful, just as you do others in the forum, including the OP.
My question was not whether or not ritual in Sikhi was meaningless -- certainly it is NOT. The question was if there were any rituals in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism of Khalsa.
Or, if you like I can re-phrase it for comfort's sake. What ceremonies were found in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism ceremony of the Khalsa?
My question was not whether or not ritual in Sikhi was meaningless -- certainly it is NOT. The question was if there were any rituals in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism of Khalsa.
Or, if you like I can re-phrase it for comfort's sake. What ceremonies were found in Sikhi before Guru Gobind Singh established the baptism ceremony of the Khalsa?
carolineislands
SPNer
So was Guru Nanak when he used the examples of rituals from Islam and Hinduism.
- Apr 4, 2007
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what exactly are you looking for? i really dislike it when people try to back me into a corner by playing with words. i'm not playing this game, whether with you or sikh80 or anyone else.
i hold my position that sikhi is not about ritual. if you really feel the need to label sikh practices as "ritual" that is your personal choice, feel free to find such practices on your own. you're a smart lady. you seem to read a lot about sikhi. you certainly don't need a fool like me to do the work for you.
carolineislands
SPNer
I think the point was whether or not the rituals were "meaningless" was it not? The point I'm trying to make is that the meaning of any ritual, or ceremony, is to be found (as you said) in the heart of the person performing it. What may seem a ritual from the outside looking in may be a heartfelt ceremony or practice from the inside. Perhaps that is why you can say a certain repeated practices or actions is not a "ritual" when done in the context of Sikhi but it IS a ritual in other contexts. Other people might look at Sikhi and think the things we do are meaningless rituals when, in fact, they are very meaningful. As you said, everything in Sikhi has a meaning. But then, doesn't pretty much anyone say that about their own practices?
I am not saying that Sikh practices are meaningless rituals. But I don't see any point in trying to say there are no rituals at all, when any repeated, prescripbed set of actions within the context of one's religion is a ritual. What I am inviting you to do is look at things through other's eyes and see that your religion, just like all the other ones that the One God owns, has these prescribed sets of actions and that, whether or not they are meaningless can only be judged in the heart of the person performing them.
And as for playing games. Don't act like you don't do it too.:u):
I am not saying that Sikh practices are meaningless rituals. But I don't see any point in trying to say there are no rituals at all, when any repeated, prescripbed set of actions within the context of one's religion is a ritual. What I am inviting you to do is look at things through other's eyes and see that your religion, just like all the other ones that the One God owns, has these prescribed sets of actions and that, whether or not they are meaningless can only be judged in the heart of the person performing them.
And as for playing games. Don't act like you don't do it too.:u):
- Feb 14, 2006
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So by definition a ritual can be almost anything, as one definition includes habits as rituals, such as a nightly glass of milk. But for the purpose to which Gurbani is describing rituals, primarily it is a religious custom.
Before we can judge whether Naam japna is a ritual, we have to understand what Naam is and what could possibly be attained by the practice of jap.
ਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਾਇਆ ਅਗਨਿ ਨ ਪੋਹੈ ॥੩॥
thaa ko maaeiaa agan n pohai ||3||
The fire of Maya does not touch them. ||3||
thaa ko maaeiaa agan n pohai ||3||
The fire of Maya does not touch them. ||3||
ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਇਆਲ ॥
man than mukh har naam dhaeiaal ||
Within their minds, bodies and mouths, is the Name of the Merciful Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 190
man than mukh har naam dhaeiaal ||
Within their minds, bodies and mouths, is the Name of the Merciful Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 190
First, Naam Japna isn't mindless repetition of God's Name. To understand Naam Japna, you have to understand the psych-spiritual processes of the human body. The body is capable of being like a radio antenna, to receive and transmit signals. The brain is capable of achieving states of heightened consciousness. Thats why some practice of just mindless repetition doesn't permit the mind to transcend the senses. Clearly Gurbani is saying the fire of Maya doesn't touch them. How can you escape Maya while still in your human body? To get to a place where Maya doesn't touch you, you have to transcend ordinary states of body consciousness.
ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ॥
har kaa naam dheeou gur manthra ||
The Guru has given me the Mantra of the Name of the Lord.
har kaa naam dheeou gur manthra ||
The Guru has given me the Mantra of the Name of the Lord.
ਮਿਟੇ ਵਿਸੂਰੇ ਉਤਰੀ ਚਿੰਤ ॥੨॥
mittae visoorae outharee chinth ||2||
My worries are forgotten, and my anxiety is gone. ||2||
mittae visoorae outharee chinth ||2||
My worries are forgotten, and my anxiety is gone. ||2||
ਅਨਦ ਭਏ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ॥
anadh bheae gur milath kirapaal ||
Meeting with the Merciful Guru, I am in ecstasy.
anadh bheae gur milath kirapaal ||
Meeting with the Merciful Guru, I am in ecstasy.
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਾਟੇ ਜਮ ਜਾਲ ॥੩॥
kar kirapaa kaattae jam jaal ||3||
Showering His Mercy, He has cut away the noose of the Messenger of Death. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 190
kar kirapaa kaattae jam jaal ||3||
Showering His Mercy, He has cut away the noose of the Messenger of Death. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 190
Here we see that the Naam takes all your worries and cares away, removes your anxiety, and gives you state of ecstacy. So it is clear Gurbani is talking about a transcendant state of consciousness. Naam japna is that technique by which the mind is turned inward, away from the senses and sensual world, away from fires of temptation and Maya. Naam japna is the method which lifts the spiritual energies upward to pierce the nine gates and unlock the door of the tenth. Since this is an active process involving inner Self-realization and meeting with the Guru within, it's can't be a ritual or a custom. It isn't an action done to fulfill religious or social purposes. But it is the very process of Self-liberation.
ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਵਖਧੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਨਾ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥੫॥੨॥
gur manthra avakhadhh naam dheenaa jan naanak sankatt jon n paae ||5||2||
One who is blessed with the medicine of the GurMantra, the Name of the Lord, O servant Nanak, does not suffer the agonies of reincarnation. ||5||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1002
gur manthra avakhadhh naam dheenaa jan naanak sankatt jon n paae ||5||2||
One who is blessed with the medicine of the GurMantra, the Name of the Lord, O servant Nanak, does not suffer the agonies of reincarnation. ||5||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1002
There can be no comparison to wearing a red thread, or eating a communion wafer, or performing arti. It's NOT a ritual, it's a method of inner attunement with Guru. It's a resonance of the whole body, subtle sheaths of body, mind and soul with the very God. By bringing the intensity of meditation and life energy and consciousness into awareness and praise of the God, the body becomes a tool of liberation. Gurmantra is infused with the power of jyot and Gurshabad. It is the very essence of Guruji's presence, light and sound. And the Gurmantra once implanted within with Naam drihr is a power and presence infused into your consciousness, into your being. It is shaktipat transmission. Naam japna, saas giras simran is the technique to begin vibrating that energy and moving it through your whole being, upwards, and inwards to the dasm duar. So it is an aliveness, activation of energy rather than a ritual. It is the most active and aware form of prayer.
ਅਦਿਸਟੁ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਥਾਇਆ ਥਾ ॥
adhisatt agochar paarabreham mil saadhhoo akathh kathhaaeiaa thhaa ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperceptible and unfathomable; meeting the Holy Saint, I speak the Unspoken Speech.
adhisatt agochar paarabreham mil saadhhoo akathh kathhaaeiaa thhaa ||
The Supreme Lord God is imperceptible and unfathomable; meeting the Holy Saint, I speak the Unspoken Speech.
ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਦਸਮ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਵਜਿਓ ਤਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਚੁਆਇਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥
anehadh sabadh dhasam dhuaar vajiou theh anmrith naam chuaaeiaa thhaa ||2||
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates and resounds in the Tenth Gate; the Ambrosial Naam trickles down there. ||2||
anehadh sabadh dhasam dhuaar vajiou theh anmrith naam chuaaeiaa thhaa ||2||
The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates and resounds in the Tenth Gate; the Ambrosial Naam trickles down there. ||2||
ਤੋਟਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬੂਝੀ ਅਖੁਟ ਭੰਡਾਰ ਸਮਾਇਆ ਥਾ ॥
thott naahee man thrisanaa boojhee akhutt bhanddaar samaaeiaa thhaa ||
I lack nothing; the thirsty desires of my mind are satisfied. The inexhaustible treasure has entered into my being.
~SGGS Ji p. 1002
thott naahee man thrisanaa boojhee akhutt bhanddaar samaaeiaa thhaa ||
I lack nothing; the thirsty desires of my mind are satisfied. The inexhaustible treasure has entered into my being.
~SGGS Ji p. 1002
Anyone who thinks Japping Naam is just a ritual has no concept of what Naam is, what the human body was designed to achieve. It's a very deeply metaphysical practice to liberate and expand consciousness and achieve mukti. It's bhakti. It's devotion. It's a love affair. It is the very life (prana) and breath (ayama). Pranayam.
ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਦ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
naam nidhhaan sadh man vasai mehalee paavai thhaao ||1|| rehaao ||
The Treasure of the Naam abides forever within the mind, and one's place of rest is found in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 30
naam nidhhaan sadh man vasai mehalee paavai thhaao ||1|| rehaao ||
The Treasure of the Naam abides forever within the mind, and one's place of rest is found in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence. ||1||Pause||
~SGGS Ji p. 30
Naam japna is prayer, it is communion with the Divine Beloved, it is movement and energy and aliveness, it is transformation. It cannot even possibly be considered a ritual.
- Apr 4, 2007
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in sikhi, the word ritual is used to refer to meaningless or repetitive acts that do not keep God in mind.
no, there are no rituals in sikhi, if you can manage to go by the sikh usage of the word. you simply cannot describe Sikhi from the point of view of a christian/westerner.
and i find your insinuation that i "play games" here extremely insulting. i'm an open book. my honesty gets me in far too much trouble. i'm not nearly clever enough to "play games". if i were, do you think i'd be jumped on so often?
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