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Dasam Granth And The 'Bani' Recited In Khande Di Pahul

Luckysingh

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Lucky Singh ji, not Sikh but Khalsa. Not our modern definitition of Khalsa but the puratan one, one who would fight a legion and was ACTIVELY TRAINING in swordsmanship and art of war, to do so.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

That is exactly how it comes across to me so far, as I haven't looked into all of it thoroughly- so I can't give an overall opinion.

At the moment, I sense the Adi granth as more spiritually connected and the dasam granth as more practical and being necesary for the Singh at war.
- I may be wrong, as I have shamelessly avoided anything to do with the DG before due to the huge 'Anti-brigade' that is on the media, radio, on here and everywhere.
But now I thought, I should see it for myself and in all honesty it has given me even more love and respect for Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
- This is what I can't understand because I find it makes me more inclined and determined to not just be a sikh or khalsa, BUT to be a Sikh OF Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
- To follow him and love him as my father of the khalsa and to be able to honour him.

For example, I'm a pretty hard knock dude, meaning I am not very sensitive and hardly ever cry or get upset, even when close ones have passed away, I've hardly shed any tears or got too emotional.

BUT, when I read the zafarnama translation recently (I had been through it in the past), I was so touched that it bought tears to my eyes and I had to stop in between (not in my nature to react like that as it hardly ever happens to me)!!

So you can understand, that when something can touch you that much and evoke more love and emotions for our One and only Guru Gobind Singh Ji, then it's very difficult to just simply reject it because of some so called hindu and british tampering !!
So, whoever tampered with it as they say or helped fictionalise it, do we just let them win and get their way ??
- That's what they wanted !!
Can't we try and look to see and feel the 'real' and 'true' colours of our Guru ?
- It's all there in the khalsa package!!!
 

Ishna

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A question could also be asked about Mai Bhago's place in the Khalsa.

However, we've already been reminded it would be off topic.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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We are saying you should stay home and be safe while we go fight and die for your safety. :sippingcoffeemunda:

What was mai Bhago doing ?? disobeying this rule ?? Many other women fought alongside the Khalsa Forces...in fact the Kaum/Khalsa Nation was a traveling camp for most of the late 17th/18th centuries...in the Chhota and Wadda Ghallugharas entire FAMILIES of sikhs were massacred/died forghting on the Battle filed...Many Hundreds of Singhanniahs are mentioned in our ARDASS...as in >>Jinnah Singhan ate Singhanneah ne....so again what were these singhannens DOING away from home..?? cheerleader BTW a KAUR is also mandatorily ordered to carry the KIRPAN..or shes not considered amritdharee...same rules apply...to BOTH genders...The GURU wouldnt be ordering the Khalsa KAURS to be ARMED and seated at home...?? a sheer waste of valuable kirpans..??? wouldnt you think so...
 

findingmyway

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We are saying you should stay home and be safe while we go fight and die for your safety. :sippingcoffeemunda:
That is the most condescending thing I have heard. Just because you were born lacking part of a chromosome, you are not superior to women in anyway-physical or otherwise. I suggest all men who believe this statement reconnect with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and remember the meaning of equality, respect and keeping ego in check :shockedkudi::confusedmunda::doh:

There is no space for devis in Sikhi when we revere only Akal Purakh. Guru Gobind Singh ji would not have promoted something at odds with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I also find it difficult to understand why he would do anything to cause confusion in the Panth such as dividing attention after explicitly giving us direction to follow only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Guru. Placing so much emphasis on DG is directly disobeying Guru Gobind Singh ji. If those writings were really to make a Sikh complete, they would have been included in the Guru Granth Sahib ji.

With regards to anything I the DG, I see 2 options. Either someone has complete devotion, commitment and loyalty to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru or they have split loyalties due to opposite concepts by following other texts. I say this after spending much time studying DG and comparing to the teachings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for myself. I suggest others to read and make their own mind up and not been be swayed by emotional arguments.
 

BhagatSingh

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Jasleen ji,
Men are, on average, physically stronger than women on average. This is a fact. Are you arguing otherwise? Have you ever seen the olympics? other professional sports maybe?

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/sports/track-records-men-vs-women.htm

Bhagauti is not something separate than Bhagwat. They are one and the same. The fire and it's heat are not separate. If this is not clear to you then I have serious doubts about how much you actually understand.

Gyani ji,
What was mai Bhago doing ?? disobeying this rule ??
Yes. And when she is angry at the 40 men who had abandoned Guru Sahib and his other men, she makes it her business to get them back. When she finds them, their wives are there too. She with the help of their wives, convince them to go back.
Notice however,the wives are not the ones going back. It's the 40 Men and 1 Woman.

It wasn't women who were saving themselves and their children from Afghan invasions, it was Baba Deep Singh and his men, who were saving those women and children. It was men who died whilst defending Harmandir Sahib. If you do not acknowledge this, you are disrespecting those men and their martyrdoms.

It's mostly men fighting and dieing out there.

Even to day in our modern society, it's mostly men who are fighting and dieing. One example, men take up the most dangerous jobs. Most of the hazardous jobs aren't even touched by women. It wasn't women who were getting black lung from mining coal, it was MEN.

There were 1,097 Canadians killed at their place of work in 2005 according to a recent study by the Centre for the Study of Living Standards. When we take a look at who these people are, the gender trend is clear; the average rate of workplace deaths in Canada in 2005 was 30 times higher for men than women. In other words, 97 per cent of the people killed on the job were men. In actual numbers, of the 1097 reported workplace deaths in 2005, 1069 were male workers while the remaining 28 were female workers. The study also reports, the rate of workplace death is rising for men and falling for women.
http://www.kanetix.ca/ic_life_info_life_articles_30

I am not saying there is no equality, I am simply giving the facts. Dasam Granth was revered by Guru Gobind Singh ji's military and it was made up of thousands of men and one woman.

PS
That is the most condescending thing I have heard.
Apparently, the women in the movie Titanic and those watching the movie didn't think so when the Men said "women and children first" and then died freezing in their thousands!
 
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findingmyway

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Men are, on average, physically stronger than women on average. This is a fact. Are you arguing otherwise? Have you ever seen the olympics? other professional sports maybe?

This is irrelevant as it is dealing with averages. Some men are weaker than the average woman and some women are stronger than the average man. Just because the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, does not mean that women are not capable of looking after themselves. I have also trained in martial arts, mainly aikido which uses an opponents strength against them. The only time I have had to use it in real life is when protecting MYSELF AGAINST MEN (notice the plural-it is intentional). To suggest a Singni needs a mans protection is an insult. Why do the armed forces accept women is they are so incapable of fighting?



Bhagauti is not something separate than Bhagwat. They are one and the same.
You yourself said Bhagauti is a devi therefore how can it be the same as Akal Purakh when Akal Purakh/Waheguru is without form and without gender. Hindus believe in Devis and Devtas, not Sikhs. Sikhs worship only Akal Purakh.

Yes. And when she is angry at the 40 men who had abandoned Guru Sahib and his other men, she makes it her business to get them back. When she finds them, their wives are there too. She with the help of their wives, convince them to go back.
Notice however,the wives are not the ones going back. It's the 40 Men and 1 Woman.

It wasn't women who were saving themselves and their children from Afghan invasions, it was Baba Deep Singh and his men, who were saving those women and children. It was men who died whilst defending Harmandir Sahib. If you do not acknowledge this, you are disrespecting those men and their martyrdoms.

It's mostly men fighting and dieing out there.

Even to day in our modern society, it's mostly men who are fighting and dieing. One example, men take up the most dangerous jobs. Most of the hazardous jobs aren't even touched by women. It wasn't women who were getting black lung from mining coal, it was MEN.

I am not saying there is no equality, I am simply giving the facts.
History is written by men therefore the Story of Kaur Shaheeds is not recouted and popularised. That does not mean they don't exist. My friend is currently doing an MA looking in to 'Her_story' rather than 'HIStory'. I will keep you updated of the stories and facts she uncovers in her research. Our very own Mai Harinder Kaur fought so bravely and lost so much. Does she not count? Do women like her mean nothing? Should she be forgotten? Should her story and the story of other countless women like her mean less than the fight fought by the men? What about the mothers who had their children strung around their necks in little pieces? Were they not standing up for the kaum? Were they not sacrificing and also making a stand? Where were the men then?

It is beyond my understanding that a modern man can believe women to be so weak and worthless after seeing the huge successes that women have made in so many walks of life including in the physical world (e.g. martial arts). I also don't understand why 500 years after Guru Nanak Dev ji enabled women and gave us equal status, we are still fighting against the image of being weak and only worthy of being housewives rather than being treated as individual people with our own strengths and weaknesses just like men.
 
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Ishna

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It was men who died whilst defending Harmandir Sahib. If you do not acknowledge this, you are disrespecting those men and their martyrdoms.

Don't let Mai Harinder Kaur see this.

So, a question then (not that it's much use), bringing this back to somewhere near the original topic, why initiate women at all, especially with "bani" from the DG? Shouldn't women just help out by bringing sugar but otherwise retreat to the safety of their homes? Gyaniji makes a good point - why even bother with them having kirtan or even a turban?

I recall reading an historical description of a bunch of Kaurs visiting a place in India and the Muslim ladies being impressed and frightened by the heavy armour and weapons they were carrying. I've been trying to find it for half and hour now and will keep searching. Perhaps they were transgendered?
 

BhagatSingh

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Ishna ji I know Mai Harinder ji well. She's a great lady and has my full respect for being a great human being, and for defending herself and her family alongside the men.

Other than a few women, it is thousands of men fighting and dieing, and if you don't acknowledge that I think you are being irreverent of the scale of sacrifice men have given for every nation and community (not just ours).

So, a question then (not that it's much use), bringing this back to somewhere near the original topic, why initiate women at all, especially with "bani" from the DG? Shouldn't women just help out by bringing sugar but otherwise retreat to the safety of their homes? Gyaniji makes a good point - why even bother with them having kirtan or even a turban? ...
I think you are more interested in mocking what I'm saying than actually understanding what I am saying. The answer is women like you and Jasleen ji want to be initiated. It's open to all.

Why does the mention of the sacrifice of men, limit the role of kaurs? It shouldn't. Kaurs are allowed to and imo should express themselves fully and develop to their full potential. But facts are facts.

Spot the women.
grqzz0tdj3ok81jdnq30_Sant-Jarnail-Singh-Bhindranwale-%2813%29%20copy.jpg
 

findingmyway

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The mention of the sacrifice of men, limit the role of kaurs? It shouldn't. Kaurs are allowed to and imo should express themselves fully and develop to their full potential. But facts are facts.

Women can really reach their full potential when they are being told by men like yourself they are only capable of sitting at home and need a man's protection. So 1st the woman has to fight community before she can enter the battlefield! Is it any wonder there are fewer women there? History is reported by men therefore it is not factual but a skewed viewpoint. I repeat my statement from above. If women are not as capable as men why are so many in combat in the armed forces? Why are there women in absolutely every field of life?

Additionally, even from the Guru's history it can be seen that fighting is not the only way to combat oppression. Glorifying violence achieves nothing. Poeple are needed in addition to an army for a healthy nation and even a healthy army.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Jasleen ji,
With regards to the physical nature of men and women, and about the armed forces, and the history and dynamics of men and women. I will leave you to do your own research. Hint: you need to do more research here

Men love it when women sacrifice themselves for men. Look at Gyani ji jumping to mention the sacrifice by women. Look at my own example of painting Mai Bhago first before any other martyr. I intend to paint her yet again as I have become better at painting since then.

But when talking about facts, about how many women:men died for each other. Way more men have sacrificed themselves for women than view versa. The Sikh history is testimony to that fact. I'll let you read evolutionary biology and psychology to understand exactly why that is so. But not acknowledging that is disrespecting Sikh men like Baba Deep Singh, Banda Singh Bahadur, etc and the millions of men in their armies !period

Being a soldier is the most dangerous job and many men took it up to support their women and children.

You yourself said Bhagauti is a devi therefore how can it be the same as Akal Purakh when Akal Purakh/Waheguru is without form and without gender.
Ok that confirms my doubts. Few things to understand here:
Akal Purakh is all form and is also without form, formless, and also has some forms that are considered sacred.
Akal Purakh is both male and female and without gender. He covers the totality of everything there is. There is nothing excluded here.

But Akal Purakh means Timeless Man. You'll see why later. So I am going to switch to a gender neutral term, Brahmn.

The female in Brahmn is matter, form. The male is consciousness, formless. Think of life as the copulation between male penetrating the female, conscious awareness penetrating the matter.

I would take some time and think about these and let them settle in the mind because they are crucial concepts to everything underlying Guru Granth Sahib. Having understood these we can move forward.

Ok let's go deeper into gender when it comes to Brahmn.

The female, the material, is the wordly, is Maya (She is not evil just very mesmerizing) And Madhav, Maya's husband, Hari is the male, conscious entity sitting inside of us, he is the Antaryami, in dweller. And since as a species we are so attuned to the the world, the female, Maya (and disconnected from consciousness, male, Hari), Guru Granth Sahib tells us to do Simran, and connect with the male, our husband. As you know, many authors describe Hari as their husband, where they themselves are His bride.

Now all this is taking place in duality, to see it in Oneness is difficult, is main goal of a Sikh. Seeing this form-formless, male-female, play in Oneness leads to Mukti.


ਆਸਾ ॥ ਤਿਪਦਾ ॥ ਇਕਤੁਕਾ ॥
आसा ॥ तिपदा ॥ इकतुका ॥
Āsā. ṯipḏā. Ikṯukā.
Aasaa, Ti-Pada, Ik-Tuka:

ਕੀਓ ਸਿੰਗਾਰੁ ਮਿਲਨ ਕੇ ਤਾਈ ॥
I have decorated myself in hope of meeting Him.

ਹਰਿ ਨ ਮਿਲੇ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥੧॥
Hari has not met me, that Life of the world, that care taker, Gosain ||1||

ਹਰਿ ਮੇਰੋ ਪਿਰੁ ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਬਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
Hari is my husband, and I am his bride.

ਰਾਮ ਬਡੇ ਮੈ ਤਨਕ ਲਹੁਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ram is great whilst I am infinitesimally small. ||1||Pause||

ਧਨ ਪਿਰ ਏਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥
The matter and husband dwell together in me.

ਸੇਜ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਮਿਲਨੁ ਦੁਹੇਰਾ ॥੨॥
They lie in one bed, but their union is difficult. ||2||


Kabir says it is difficult to see male and female as one, to see consciousness and matter as one and the same.


ਧੰਨਿ ਸੁਹਾਗਨਿ ਜੋ ਪੀਅ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
Blessed is the bride, who is pleasing to her Husband Lord.

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥੩॥੮॥੩੦॥
Says Kabeer, she shall not have to be reincarnated again. ||3||8||30||


Page 483
For more discussion of Kabir's Bani please see: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-granth-darpan/39302-true-honour-boskd-5-a.html

So to sum up one of the related concepts. The male is spiritual and the female is temporal. The male is worshipped to acheive spiritual success, and the female to acheive material success. And I think you can connect this to Chaupai, and understand why as a prayer Chaupai is so different from Guru Granth Sahib. It is different because the female is prayed to there, instead of the male. But also see male and female as one.

Ok that's enough for now. I will post more tomorrow if there are any more concerns.
 

BhagatSingh

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Women can really reach their full potential...
I love your enthusiasm to learn but slow down a bit. Haha! I have other things to attend to as well. If time allows I can explain it all to you but if not you'll have to do some research on your own.
 

Ambarsaria

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I agree with findingmyway ji on this. It is culturally more customary to acknowledge men as fighters in Punjabi culture. For whatever reason, it appears the reference to women appears to diminish the man they are with. Specially if they are praised in respect of valor, physical attributes and contributions.

Example of derogatory cultural phrases:

By the way this is borderline as to be anti-woman versus plain and simple trying to get testosterone going in men such as may be prone to it.

Men Speak challenging/taunting a male's manhood:
  1. If you don't want to join us in our fight then put the bangles on and stay at home.
  2. English version I heard is "... if you are not going to act like a man go home and wear a skirt."
Note: By the way this is men taunting men and it is available in almost all macho cultures. Much to be noted in Spanish including Mexico and South America, Italian, Portuguese, British, American., etc.

History is witness across the world in terms of dis-proportionate killing of men in civil or martial violence. Numerous recent stories of young men rounded up in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, of course in India by the thousands in 1984, etc., to be then summarily executed.
Capability wise all can rise to equal level if so demanded by a situations. One of the old respectable lady I know is known to have shielded her son in the house when someone was trying to shoot him. The bullet fragments are still lodged in her legs to this date. The son survived and so did she.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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findingmyway

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If time allows I can explain it all to you but if not you'll have to do some research on your own.

Your condescending tones are insulting. I think we have to agree to disagree as we are obviously not going to see eye to eye on concepts we both consider to be fundamental to understanding Sikhi. Research is my profession and research in Sikh philosophy is my passion so do not tell me I am not researching. My research takes me in a different direction. It does not mean I am incorrect and I do not appreciate being talked down to.
 

BhagatSingh

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Jasleen ji,
That's good to hear.
You are however, imagining condescension where there is none. I am speaking rather matter of fact here. You expressed views that I saw were missing a lot of information and explanation. My reply to that is, if I have time, I will give you that information and explanation, otherwise, you'll have to find it out on your own... As a fellow researcher if you will.

Sangat ji,
I think there would be less misunderstanding here in this thread, if we all stop taking things personally, ie the act of implying something about ourselves from the information given rather than just taking it as information that is relevant to studying the topic at hand, namely Dasam Granth and it's content.
 
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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Ishna ji I know Mai Harinder ji well. She's a great lady and has my full respect for being a great human being, and for defending herself and her family alongside the men.

Other than a few women, it is thousands of men fighting and dieing, and if you don't acknowledge that I think you are being irreverent of the scale of sacrifice men have given for every nation and community (not just ours).


I think you are more interested in mocking what I'm saying than actually understanding what I am saying. The answer is women like you and Jasleen ji want to be initiated. It's open to all.

Why does the mention of the sacrifice of men, limit the role of kaurs? It shouldn't. Kaurs are allowed to and imo should express themselves fully and develop to their full potential. But facts are facts.

Spot the women.
grqzz0tdj3ok81jdnq30_Sant-Jarnail-Singh-Bhindranwale-%2813%29%20copy.jpg


hERE IS THE women version OF THAT fauj....AND THE WOMEN ARE FIGHTING EXACTLY WHAT THE cHARITROPAKHYAN LITERATURE PROMOTES.....
singer diljit ਦਾ ਵਿਰੋਧ - YouTube
 

BhagatSingh

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Gyani ji,
Lakk 28 Kuri Da - Full Song HD - Diljit & Honey Singh - The Lion Of Punjab - Brand New Punjabi Songs - YouTube
3 million views, 3000 likes with 200 dislikes.

I mean that's the culture we are progressing towards as both men and women. Many traditional folks aren't liking it at all. It's filth I agree.

Now, on turning women in to sex objects: yes it's an issue. But we do this with men too but in a different way, which is not recognized as an issue! We turn them into 'success objects'. We look at what they do, what they earn and how useful they are to society. That goes back to Ambarsaria ji's comment, that if they are not useful they should sit home and wear bangles. Of course, both types of objectifications ignore the "person" in that objectified individual. As a society we should be more aware of this, and work to counter it.

I enjoyed this song more:
Gobind De Lal - Full Song Album SIKH by Diljit Singh Dosanjh - Brand New Punjabi Songs Full HD - YouTube
1.5 Million views 5000 likes 250 dislikes.

But why did no one speak out about the young boys holding weapons here? Do we expect them to die for us?
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Bhagat Singh Ji,
Each SIKH (male and female - no gender discrimination) is expected to be a SANT-SIPAHI...defend herself/himself......not be a free loader looking at others to coem defend him/her. This is also why many say the Rakhree Ritaul has nothing to offer Kaurs..Kaurs defend themselves...my main point is this.
 
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