Dasam Granth And The 'Bani' Recited In Khande Di Pahul

[findingmyway]

It is talking about different time scales completely.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message is eternal so time scales become irrelevant. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Bani was enough inspiration for Guru Nanak Dev Ji and others before so the claim that DG is essential for the complete Gursikh just doesn't hold!

You keep saying DG is not equivalent to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then call it Bani. There are also people who make such comments as

so many Sikhs and especially Nihangs revere the text to the point where they give GGS and DG equal authority

I find this very dangerous as it undermines Sikhi. I will always speak out passionately (and unfortunately this gets me into trouble) against anything that undermines Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and therefore Sikhi.

Bani Guru Hai, Guru Hai Bani.

Therefore, anything that is called Bani is on an equal par as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If you want to call DG or other writings supporting literature, do that, don't call them Bani otherwise eventually people will deflect from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather than focussing on it as shown by the quote above. I hate arguments but this is one issue I am passionate about as it is about defending the very ground I stand on as a Sikh and the meaning/guidance of being a Sikh (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji).

Statements such as

I am of the opinion that we learn very little about the material when discussing the authenticity of it.

from people who insist DG is authored by Guru Gobind Singh ji are quite disturbing. Most of the writings in DG are so extremely anti-gurmat (I say this as I spent a long time studying DG and comparing against the principles of Gurbani for myself), I think it is an insult to Guru Gobind Singh ji to attibute them all to him. Because of the anti-Gurmat nature I will always speak out against large chunks of this text.

When looking at the sections used in Khande di Pahaul, I think people need to read themselves and make their own minds up. However, this video may help as it contains very important information about those sections. Looking for good in all can backfire if it tears you in 2 directions. Sometimes a decision has to be made for the direction you choose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4F8QMBpwmI&feature=related

 

[Luckysingh]

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message is eternal so time scales become irrelevant. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Bani was enough inspiration for Guru Nanak Dev Ji and others before so the claim that DG is essential for the complete Gursikh just doesn't hold!

The time scales were mentioned because you had stated and questioned if the other guru's had used the DG for their shaheedis.
The Guru granthsahib ji was not an inspiration for Guru Nanak Ji, but he started the composition and it is more like that Nanak was the inspiration for the shabad and word throughout the gurbani, Hence- why his name is referenced by other contributers throughout since the jyot and construction of gurbani began with him.

Your statement of 'DG is essential for the complete gursikh-doesn't hold' is what this thread is about. What we are saying is that a gursikh is not complete with out the jaap sahib, sawayya and benti chaupai.
So your comment is defeating the purpose of this thread.

You keep saying DG is not equivalent to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then call it Bani. There are also people who make such comments as
I find this very dangerous as it undermines Sikhi. I will always speak out passionately (and unfortunately this gets me into trouble) against anything that undermines Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and therefore Sikhi.
.........
Therefore, anything that is called Bani is on an equal par as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If you want to call DG or other writings supporting literature, do that, don't call them Bani otherwise eventually people will deflect from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather than focussing on it as shown by the quote above. I hate arguments but this is one issue I am passionate about as it is about defending the very ground I stand on as a Sikh and the meaning/guidance of being a Sikh (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji).

If it is not gurbani then what is Jaap sahib for example ?
You mean the written compositions of dasam pita are NOT all gurbani and gurbani is ONLY Adi granth ?
Your idea is more dangerous and misleading,
If I have a gutka with just jaap sahib in it, then do I not treat with the same respect as other gurbani gutka ?
Do I just leave it on the floor withn my other books?
Do i start jotting little notes in pen on th pages like i do with other literature books i have ?
You CANNOT confine gurbani to adi granth only. In the sikh rehat it makes it clear that gurbani is meant to be sang as kirtan only in gurdwara and this includes Guru Gobind Singh Ji's writings, Bhai Gurdas ji and Bhai Nand lal ji.
So how can you say that Guru Gobind Singh Ji's writings are NOT bani ?

Statements such as from people who insist DG is authored by Guru Gobind Singh ji are quite disturbing. Most of the writings in DG are so extremely anti-gurmat (I say this as I spent a long time studying DG and comparing against the principles of Gurbani for myself), I think it is an insult to Guru Gobind Singh ji to attibute them all to him. Because of the anti-Gurmat nature I will always speak out against large chunks of this text.

In response to that, you should read my previous posts of taking in what you find as gurmat and leaving what you dont.
If you didn't understand them or my approach towards DG, then there is no point discussing further.

If you enjoy twisting around my statements and it gives you satisfaction, then by all means carry on.
I am NOT here to do that.
I have simply made it clear in the previous posts what DG means to me. I'm not begging for it to mean the same to you.
If it makes me a better sikh, more inclined to take amrit, gives more more love and praise for Dasam Pita Guru Gobind Singh Ji, can help pave the way to khalsa for me, -THEN i'm afraid you can NOT take that away from me.

If DG makes has a negative impact on your gurmat and sikhi approach then that is something you have to deal with because it doesn't do that to me and I explained why and how previously.

We are here to debate and discuss the issues and not poke at each other personally which I sense from your good self.
I would have expected a better and more balanced approach from a mod


Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh.
(where did this come from ?)

 

[BhagatSingh]

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's message is eternal so time scales become irrelevant.

With any spiritual text, part of the message is eternal and part of it is culturally specific. The part that is eternal is unspoken and the part that is spoken is culturally specific.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Bani was enough inspiration for Guru Nanak Dev Ji and others before so the claim that DG is essential for the complete Gursikh just doesn't hold!

Guru Granth Sahib is for those of us who are living in spiritual poverty. It's not for those who are very spiritual already, e.g. Gurus, Bhagats, Bhatts, other spiritually elevated beings even from other cultures etc.

You keep saying DG is not equivalent to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then call it Bani.

Bani is the word-arrow fired at you by a guru, any guru.

There are also people who make such comments as
I find this very dangerous as it undermines Sikhi. I will always speak out passionately (and unfortunately this gets me into trouble) against anything that undermines Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and therefore Sikhi.

And it does not undermine Sikhi. Many of the members here read other spiritual books, myself included and we find pearls of wisdom hidden within. This has actually strengthened our faith in Guru Granth Sahib.

Bani Guru Hai, Guru Hai Bani.

Exactly! As I said in my last post: "They are one and the same. We come to know the teacher through the teachings and teachings through the teacher."

Therefore, anything that is called Bani is on an equal par as Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If you want to call DG or other writings supporting literature, do that, don't call them Bani otherwise eventually people will deflect from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather than focussing on it as shown by the quote above. I hate arguments but this is one issue I am passionate about as it is about defending the very ground I stand on as a Sikh and the meaning/guidance of being a Sikh (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji).

Ok I don't believe this however, and I have not met any other Sikhs who did either, except for maybe on this forum...

Statements such as from people who insist DG is authored by Guru Gobind Singh ji are quite disturbing. Most of the writings in DG are so extremely anti-gurmat (I say this as I spent a long time studying DG and comparing against the principles of Gurbani for myself), I think it is an insult to Guru Gobind Singh ji to attibute them all to him. Because of the anti-Gurmat nature I will always speak out against large chunks of this text.

Perhaps a better understanding of Gurmat is needed.

When looking at the sections used in Khande di Pahaul, I think people need to read themselves and make their own minds up. However, this video may help as it contains very important information about those sections. Looking for good in all can backfire if it tears you in 2 directions. Sometimes a decision has to be made for the direction you choose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4F8QMBpwmI&feature=related

If you are interested in a discussion please present the views in the video or anything you have concluded from your own personal study.

 

[Ishna]

Um, thanks for the psychoanalysis, but I'm gonna go straight for

3 lack of understanding and interest

 

[BhagatSingh]

Hi

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

If someone would just take what most would agree is Guruji's bani OUT of the DG and into it's own special binding there would be much, much less of a problem.[/QUOTE]

ISHNA Ji,
What is the criterion to the part of Banee in DG as from GuRu Gobind Singh Ji?
One can only assume that Such and such Banee is from GuRu Gobind Singh ji as
There is no definitive indication as in Banee of SGGS being stamped as NANAK
or being stamped by the reference of Various Bahagats

Just my observations in respect of Banee from DG being accepted as from GuRu Gobind
Singh ji.
Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ishna]

There is no criterion, and that's the problem. It will be a mystery forever, with Sikhs arguing about it forever.

Bhagat, there were nasty bits because sexism doesn't deserve good manners.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ishna ji, There is no excuse for nasty behaviour. And there is no substitute for good reasoning.

 

[Ishna]

Good reasoning = your reasoning.

Nasty behaviour is having hundred of pages of misogyny and calling it scripture.

 

[Luckysingh]

There is no criterion, and that's the problem. It will be a mystery forever, with Sikhs arguing about it forever.

I'm afraid it wil be an ongoing mystery unless the 'governing body' of akaal takht or SGPC make an official declaration. (I say governing body, as that's what it's supposed to be)
However, even then it would just result in more divisions and different rehats, just as we have separate damadami, Akj, nirankari..etc.. rehats and bodies.
It's a shame because this is how civil wars start, as when no resolutions can be reached then killing becomes necessary.

We should be careful because too much focus on controversial issues can easily take you further away from the real core which if we remember is simply the 'Truth'.

I think the bottom line is that if DG or sakhis and other literature help towards moulding you into a better gurmat sikh, then you should go ahead, accept and proceed in that direction.
If however, you feel it gives you a some what negative impact and is likely to result in you straying away from gurmat sikhi, then you should avoid any such influences.

Most of the world's problems have arisen when we start telling or demanding what other's should be doing.

 

[Harry Haller]

I think the bottom line is that if DG or sakhis and other literature help towards moulding you into a better gurmat sikh, then you should go ahead, accept and proceed in that direction.

I agree completely with this line of thinking! In fact why stop at the DG and sakhis! If a good dose of Bhang now and then helps, lets embrace that too, in fact, why stop at Bhang?? I think we should have complete freedom to embrace anything that helps us become a better gurmat Sikh. In fact let us take inspiration from the DG and the Sakhis and use wild drug induced sex, porn, hookers the lot, all as an inspiration into moulding us, if it works, it must be ok!

The DG is a historical work that is a mish mash of concepts and articles. It is the thin end of the wedge, as much as it contains good material, this is hugely outnumbered by the bad material, and that bad material taints the whole manuscript. For fellows like yourself Luckyji, and my dear veer Bhagatji, who have intelligence and discretion, who can see what is base and what is good, it is no problem, but what about the others? What about those coming into Sikhism, should they read it? should they gain inspiration from it? What about the children? Should there be a an age bar on who can read it? It is the equivilant of reading 50 shades of gray purely because it is a 'good story'.But look at what effect this good story has had, sex toy sales shooting up, bondage gear becoming more acceptable, and that is without the implied validation of the tenth Master, it is a very slippery slope indeed.

As a historical manuscript that gives some idea of the writings of the time, it is no doubt of huge value. As an aid to living and becoming a better Sikh, I would rather read Enid Blyton.

 

[Ashoke]

The living guru for Sikhs will always remain Siri Guru Granth Sahib JI which contains the gurubani which was the WORD communicated to our gurus by Waheguru and who recited the bani.

The supreme stature of GURU was not given to the Dasam Granth by the tenth GURU because he probably knew it had no value for Sikhs and which is a conglomeration of conflicting thoughts by different authors with some good thoughts and some bad. 'Granth' here does not mean a holy book but just 'book' .

Why do Sikhs continue to argue about it beats me because the only living guru for the Sikhs should be Siri Guru Granth Sahib JI and the philosophy and guidance written in it.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

I think the problem is how the Banee from DG can be equated with
Banee of SGGS.
There is no harm in getting the knowledge which can be of any useful assistance for anyone to be a good gursikh. Such knowledge can be from any source.

Thus intermixing of Banees should get the proper attention as DG as written is going to stay as long as people are in favour of such literature work being accepted as from
GuRu Gobind Singh Ji although for not sure.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Ishna]

Did you know Seneca's letters to his friend Lucius are also bani? So is Psalms from the Bible. And a couple of Suras in the Quran. And I'm pretty sure the 9 noble truths are bani too. And todays newspaper.

Wisdom can be gained from all the above, so apparently it's all bani.

 

[BhagatSingh]

What kind of wisdom did you find in today's newspaper? I do not read them. Am I missing out? :grinningsingh:

Did you know Seneca's letters to his friend Lucius are also bani? So is Psalms from the Bible. And a couple of Suras in the Quran. And I'm pretty sure the 9 noble truths are bani too.

Don't forget Dao De Ching and the Indian texts like Bhagwad Gita, Upnishads, Puranas, Vedas. Don't forget Bhai Gurdas ji and Bhai Nand Lal ji's bani.

In fact, when you said "Wisdom can be gained from all the above, so apparently it's all bani." This was Ishna ji's bani. There is wisdom here. You are right wisdom can come from anywhere.

But we have to draw a distinction between wisdom and bani. Bani is the wisdom that arises in the interaction between the teacher and the student. So none of the above are bani if you don't read them and find the wisdom there. None of these are bani if a positive interaction between them and a learner does not take place.

 

[kds1980]

Good reasoning = your reasoning.

Nasty behaviour is having hundred of pages of misogyny and calling it scripture.

Well in that case Quran should also be not respected

http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/01/top-10-quran-quotes-every-woman-must-see/

what surprise me how liberals , feminists etc attack whatever religion, culture custom but almost keep their mouth shut against quran even though there is visible mysgyony ,sexism because of their secular credentials

 

[findingmyway]

I have simply made it clear in the previous posts what DG means to me. I'm not begging for it to mean the same to you.
If it makes me a better sikh, more inclined to take amrit, gives more more love and praise for Dasam Pita Guru Gobind Singh Ji, can help pave the way to khalsa for me, -THEN i'm afraid you can NOT take that away from me.

If DG makes has a negative impact on your gurmat and sikhi approach then that is something you have to deal with because it doesn't do that to me and I explained why and how previously.

We are here to debate and discuss the issues and not poke at each other personally which I sense from your good self.
I would have expected a better and more balanced approach from a mod

Your post has left me at a loss to understand your sentiments and the personal attack which was uncalled for.

It is fascinating how DG conversations always descend into slander esp when there is no valid reponse. Why was it so wrong of me to post a video with evidence little known? Where have I picked on you personally? Please tell me so I can put this right? Luckysingh ji, not once have I insulted you personally or discussed your personality. I suggest you re-read my posts without anger-tinted glasses. Viewpoints not agreement to yours are not a personal attack. I have tried to understand how other viewpoints have been reached as I see contradictions there which I can't get my head around. I am a scientist so questions are a way I use to get myself thinking. It is through questions that I challenge myself as well as others to always keep a check on my thoughts. If you do not like questions, I am sorry. Everyone works differently!

Saying Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not enough for a Gursikh is undermining Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji IMHO. That is not a personal attack but a reflection on my Sikhi and my belief in the truth of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I honestly don't understand why you have so many problems with me not requiring the DG for inspiration? This is not a problem for me, so why is it a problem for you?

Your question was about the bani's that are read daily. You assume these are written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Yet the video I have shared shows the actual origin of those banis. I would rather encourage interested members to watch the video, read the banis with an open mind (i.e. without the assumption of authorship) and then judge for themselves. The video is from someone far more learned than me.

Acceptance of charitopakhyan as bani is definitely against Gurmat (basic study of gurmat shows this and this has been stated by other learned members such as Gyani ji ). Other passages, I think it should be a personal decision whether to accept them or not. This is what I have always been saying. When you agree with this as far as I understand your post then what are you accusing me of? Why must everyone be inspired by these passages? If they are not, why is this a problem? Why can Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji not be enough for some? When inspired by other books, do you also elevate them to the level of bani? If not, why not as that seems to be the discussion point put forward in favour of the DG?

I have never said not to read other texts, but simply there needs to be a clear demarcation between what is bani as per Guru Gobind Singh ji's instructions. I am not trying to take anything away from you or anyone, simply answering the question posed as per my understanding with reference to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Why do the pro DG camp find that so threatening? Is the fact that I speak from love of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji the threatening part? You wrote about your reasons for your viewpoints. I wrote about my reasons for my viewpoint. Is that not allowed? Is this only a one way discussion?

I am not a moderator on this thread, merely a participant. I have not deleted or amended the posts of anyone who does not agree with me but merely participated in the exchange of views. Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us the instruction that only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Guru, therefore only Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is bani. I follow Guru Gobind Singh Ji's instructions, not yours.

P.S I was brought up to never leave ANY books on the floor as I was taught that it is disrespectful. If this sentiment is offensive to you then blame my deceased grandmother for the strength with which she instilled this sentiment in me.

 

[findingmyway]

Did you know Seneca's letters to his friend Lucius are also bani? So is Psalms from the Bible. And a couple of Suras in the Quran. And I'm pretty sure the 9 noble truths are bani too. And todays newspaper.

Wisdom can be gained from all the above, so apparently it's all bani.

I think Bhagat Singh ji and Kds ji missed the sarcasm in your post!!

 

[Luckysingh]

Findingmyway ji,
You come across as wise and not lacking in intellect, which is why I responded to your posts otherwise I would have ignored them, like I may do with others.

I have absolutely no problem with the impression that DG may have left with you. However, I don't think that this should be a valid reason to join the 'anti-DG' bandwagon.
If something leaves one with a negative experience, then one should not maintain and endorse that very experience by being 'anti', instead one should simply avoid or stay away.
This is what we should all do in all fields of life.- Lets say for example, that I am a columnist for a food magazine and one day I have an experience of a very bad Thai restaurant. Now, should I become anti-thai food and start slating all thai foods or should I just mention my experience and state that it could well be an isolated case and then avoid that menu in the near future or proceed with caution next time ?

If we ALL adopted the correct attitudes (that includes me with my own faults!), then there would not be anything 'anti', there would be no racism, sexism, ageism...you name it.

In an earlier post, I quoted the below

I think the bottom line is that if DG or sakhis and other literature help towards moulding you into a better gurmat sikh, then you should go ahead, accept and proceed in that direction.
If however, you feel it gives you a some what negative impact and is likely to result in you straying away from gurmat sikhi, then you should avoid any such influences.

In my opinion that is the attitude we should all adopt. The only thing that I have a problem with is a negative and 'anti' attitude, as I believe that is not 'healthy'.

I have not been on this forum for too long and I must say that I have learned a great deal and I am still learning. My experiences and interactions have been mostly positive and there are not any members that I would avoid. Therefore, I hope you appreciate my concern in this matter and my concern of stepping in the way of someones 'anti' attitude. (As that is how I interpreted it)
I'm not saying start loving and loathing it either, but just give your impression and accept that it is only an impression that may be different to others and at the same time don't paint DG as being all anti-gurmat. As there is quite a lot of good and gurmat within the DG, that may show itself in a different light to others.

On the other hand, I have learnt a lot from many of your posts as well as other members on here, and I sincerely thank you and all others for that. I also hope you understand the reason for my direction and do not judge me with regards to just this topic.
I do hope to have some positive future liasions with yourself and apologise for any unintentional offence that may have been caused.

Waheguru bless

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Last Night at Darbar Sahib ( as seen on LIVE PTC Broadcast via sattelite) the Head Granthi Gyani jaswinder Singh Ji LEFT OUT reading Chaupaii Sahib form the REHRASS.
Chaupaii sahib as we all know is NOT from SGGS but from the DG !!

This fellow is a die-hard DG supporter..and whats the reason behind this Lapse ?? Only God knows (or maybe farish rawal of OMG !!)

http://www.rozanaspokesman.com/epap...on=main&yview=2012&mview=Nov&dview=16&pview=3