Japjisahib ji,
My responses to your quotes are in color
“My humble request kindly read the rahao which is the central idea of the shabd, before you criticize or waste other's time in questioning….
What is gharab? Gurbani tells us, 'ਮਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਕਾ ਤਿਹ ਤਜਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੩॥ and what is 'maya'? 'ਏਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਭਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ what distance us (manmat) from God is maya and this is gharab juene.” quote
Please don’t define ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ /garbh jon as Maya. You are simply using your assumption again. Here I will give you just one example
ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਉਰਧ ਤਪੁ ਕਰਤਾ ॥ ਤਉ ਜਠਰ ਅਗਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਤਾ ॥੨॥ Garabẖ jon mėh uraḏẖ ṯap karṯā. Ŧa▫o jaṯẖar agan mėh rahṯā. ||2|| (337)
Clearly “ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ /garbh jon” is not taken as Maya in these verses; see the entire shabd, you will understand what I am talking about. If we accept what you say, we will not be able to make sense of many verses of Sri Guru Granth Sahib as in the case of above quote.
Let me give you another example how you give a new meaning to the Gurbani, which is questionable:
Here is your quote:11
“It all depends how we understand and interpret gurbani. Like, 'ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥ as per my understanding to 8.4 millions habits, guru sahib is saying like zillion in common English and (rizak diya) provide them for their elevation the godly virtrues, thus all animal instincts within me gets transformed and not as is assumed material bhojan for sustenance.”
According to you as state above, again the meaning is changed though this estimation ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ is always used for the lives not for Maya as you claim.
ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
Lakẖ cẖa▫orāsīh jī▫a upā▫e. Jis no naḏar kare ṯis gurū milā▫e.
ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਕਾਟਿ ਸਦਾ ਜਨ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਦਰਿ ਸਚੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੁਹਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
Kilbikẖ kāt saḏā jan nirmal ḏar sacẖai nām suhāvaṇi▫ā. ||6|
Let us for a moment, we accept 84 lakhs are habits, as you claim, what we will do with the words ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਏ (the lives are created)?
Then according to you, the habits means lives and habits are given food. Clearly the layman has to go to you to understand it. You assume and decide “once for all”, but repeatedly it is all the times used for the lives as this estimated number generally talked in the old times in India, nothing more than that. Even if you go through the entire shabd, the meaning remains the same. We just cannot say that “garbh jon” means Maya.
Your quote
When guru sahib says, 'ਏਕ ਬੂੰਦ ਗੁਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਦੀਨੋ ਤਾ ਅਟਲੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਨ ਮੁਆ ॥ which rebirth gurbani is telling,- mandai kama wala? Guru sahib is not telling that since you have given me birth, now I will do something (through rituals or dying in sabd) that you will not be able to make blunder again to give me rebirth. Why anything wrong with this birth? It is all about manh.
I couldn’t make anything out of it. What it has to do with what we are discussing?
Your quote:
Permit me to put it up from another angle, despite all our efforts, if, 'ਕਬਹੂ ਜੀਅਡ਼ਾ ਊਭਿ ਚਡ਼ਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਜਾਇ ਪਇਆਲੇ ॥ when manh is 24 hour hyper and not getting stable, this sorrow and disturbed state of mind is called aavan javan, this state of mind is called jamna marna but, 'ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥
I have done my best to explain you not to generalize “janam marn” usage. This is the way you tear apart often the message in the Gurbani. The verse at the end of your quote is on 44. In that shabd, procuring His Naam is promoted that is deemed as more important than dominions and in that shabd, there is one other verse ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਰਾਪਤੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਥਿ ॥੧॥ The word ਮਹਲੁ is not a state of mind; it is that word that is linked to the last verse ਨਾਨਕ ਬਧਾ ਘਰੁ ਤਹਾਂ ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਨਮੁ ਜਰਾ ॥੪॥੬॥੭੬॥ Here also don’t forget the word ਜਰਾ which means old age. Through these all efforts, the Guru conveys a message of “sehj awastha: by procuring Naam. Wherever you see “janm and maran” you cannot relate it to ups and down of life in every context. In other words, no generalization of this usage. My respond to your post was because of your misinterpretation of “Puner janam” and I brought to your notice how “Punerjanam” is expressed through Garbh jon”( which you have named “Maya” now)
Your quote:
As gurbani says, 'ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਤਨ ਪਰ ਤੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਪਰ ਅਪਬਾਦੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ॥ ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਫੁਨਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਪਰਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਤੂਟੈ ॥੨॥ so long as I eye on others wealth, others fight, beauty and slandering, cycle of this disturbed state of mind (pal pal janma marna will never end). Once I understand this laws of nature and implement, I will never get disturbed.
Now you are defining ਆਵਾ ਗਵਨੁ that can also be refuted. I request you to stay on one usage. You bring one line from here and there and keep jumping like a ball. Remember in my post I remain focused only at “garbhjoon” to refute your point. What you are trying to do is to give new meaning by bringing new words ignoring the contexts about which I just discussed above. How you ignore the context, I have already pointed out your brand new meaning of “eighty-four lakh joon” in your quote number 11
Japjisahib004 ji, .Going into circles will not help anyone. You should not always take “janam maran” only for a plight of one’s mind. The words change in contexts. I believe intellectual like you are aware of this. I have done my best to explain you why generalization is dangerous especially in context of the Gurbani. One last example I can give is about a word to show you how it conveys different meaning in different contexts. Examples
1 issue = I have received the july issue of science discoveries.
2. Issue = What is the issue that stops you going to their meeting?
3. Issue = Do you have any issue (child)?
Thanks
Regards
mandemeet
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