Debate: Spiritual Vs Non Spiritual Interpretation Of Gurbani

[Harkiran Kaur]

There are in reality many other sites that mirror SPN....www.Sikhmarg.com is an excellent site....The Sikh Bullettin published at http://sikhbulletin.com/ is another one..Dr Devinder Singhs Understanding Sikhism is another...The Books published by the Sikh Institute of Chandigarh also good material, Sikh Missionary College at Ludhiana...

Compared to the "crowds" and the Bheerr...Discerning Sikhs..are always few and far between....just go to any DERA in Punjab to see the CROWDS...but enter a LIBRARY..and count the number of Sikhs ?? Those who "IN" the SPN crowd..are almost always found in Libraries rather than at DERAS..

I really love the postings of Sahni Ji (Japjisahib04)..he has hit the nail right on its tiny square head so well...and Tejwant Ji, Harry Ji, and the Late Narayanjyot Kaur ji..are the pillars of SPN....and pillars are always LESS then the BRICKS.....so dont count the numbers..weigh the substance..

This is my point... you have basically just outright said those who follow an atheistic interpretation of Gurbani have 'hit the nail on the head' while not coming out and directly saying it, implying that those of us who interpret it spiritually are wrong and are not 'pillars' and even suggested that we are not in the books and reading...

In fact I do read Gurbani every single day.... though I do have to rely on english translations, I never use just one version. And my vocabulary is becoming better with time so I recognize more and more words without needing to translate them.

And no matter how hard I try to dismiss a spiritual nonphysical aspect to existence and dismiss a conscious creator - I just can't. Life would seem so hopeless and meaningless if we were just accidents with no purpose. And further to that, I just don't get that meaning coming to me in Gurbani at all. I feel it... deeply inside every time I listen that there is MUCH MUCH more to existence... that we are spiritual beings... not merely physical. That there is more to life than just this puny physical existence (puny in the sense compared to the Universe we are merely a tiny speck - at least our physical shell).

I am not dismissing that there can be interpretation that can apply to physical life... but I believe that the miracle of Gurbani is that it can contain in the same words, messages for both physical life AND spiritual! So if someone is only looking to see a physical material world meaning then that is all they will see and it will be there for them... but those looking for a deeper spiritual meaning pertaining to life beyond the physical, that will also be there and they will see it.... two messages contained in the same exact verses. And that's what I believe is so awe inspiring! So I am not dismissing the purely physical, material...nonspiritual interpretations at all... but I do wish that those who only go looking for meaning pertaining to the physical material world, would also have a teeny bit of an open mind and also consider the possibility that it also contains meaning on the spiritual level too.

 

[Ishna]

I thought Gyani Ji was pointing out the difference between the crowds vs the discerning people.

The Gurdwara I go to is full of people, so many that people have to wait in the foyer and can't all fit into Darshan Sahib. The langar is always bustling, the kitchen with many volunteers.

But the Gurbani class has a total of 3 regular attendees. When the Gurdwara committee wanted to install an air conditioner into the sukhasan room, it was Gurbani class teacher who stood up and asked them why, when Guru Sahib's wisdom doesn't even feel the heat.

The air conditioner got installed anyway. I guess the crowds were right.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Ishna Ji has got me right. and Akasha Ji..apologies..you have got me totally wrong.

A few other observations ....

Pillars of SPN is not the same as Pillars of Sikhi !!! And certainly no one on SPN has ever or are advocating that it all happened by accident, and that there is no CREATOR....Anyone who has even the tiniest knowledge of Gurbani and undertands it has to have total beleif in the CREATOR...simple as that.

What many here myself included..Dont beleive in reincarnation..joons..heaven , hell, pilgtrimages,paaps, punns, daans to Brahmins, feeding Panj Holies in order to Courier that food to dead and long gone ancestors.. holy waters, holy baths, sarovars, baolis, numbers of jaaps paaths etc for wish fulfillment etc etc etc.. we also dont beleive in Bhoots, prets, ghosts, evil spirits, good spirits, angels, satan, prophets, avtaars, God born as Human, his son, his daughter, past lives and future lives, renunciations, Yogas, siddhs, assans, Aquarius ages etc etc. In regards to these Gurbani is METAPHORICAL...many of the same words used are NOT meant to be taken as the older meanings but by the meanings formed from understanding and gathering INTERNAL EVIDENCE from Gurbani itself.

Man has no understanding of JOONS at all...and if we continue to take the 84 lakh figure as REAL FACTUAL TRUTH..then we are going to soon realsie our folly..just as the Church had to when Galileo proved that the earth was round..that the SUN was the centre of the soalr system..that the earth circumnavigated the Suna nd not vice versa..and that the SUN couldnt have STOPPED for the Walls fo Jericho to fall..becasue IF the Sun stops...Gravity ceases to exist and the Soalr system collapses immediately..BUT to an ignorant MAN..the SUN risinga nd setting sems possible to STOP IT right there and set at a convenient time becasue HE cannot see beyond the rising/setting phenomenon...OUR GURUS seee far deeper than just numbers...and what JOONS does the Ordinary MAN "know"...about as many as the Artists who draw Illustrated Bibles...just have a look at Noah's Ark...and what do you see....a Lion..and Elephant..a Tiger..a cow..a leapord..a dog..a monkey..etc etc...because thats about the sum total of Mans knowledge.....Sikhs who beleive in JOONS also have this limited knowledge..as such people become dogs..cows..etc..I havent yet come across abook/story hwere someone became a Virus..a bacteria..because thats just not "thought about"..this is also where the idea and reasoning behind..Killing a Cow is worse than killing a Mosquito...simply becasue a cow is supposedly higher joon..but GURBANI says LIFE is LIFE...what is saag, what is gannah, what is meat..only HE KNOWS !! and its the correct position vis vis Gurbani. ALL the so called reincarnated souls that the Gurus supposedly saved..were snakes..rabbits..etc...NONE was a Virus or a bacteria..?? WHY..maybe becasue its pointless showing the GURU shooting an ARROW to kill a Virus !!! Who wants to see that..The Guru Killing a Snake to save the long lost soul of a sikh..is much more entertaining...so A Sikh who lied to Guru nanak ji became a SNAKE..whose soul was then released by Guru Gobind Singh ji with an arrow !! Wow thats entertaining..to many but not to me..apologies if this is called.."only I am Right and all others are wrong"..behaviour ?? Should EACH statement be parenthised in brackets as ( MY OPINION ONLY)..??? if this is not done..then it becomes like I am right and you are wrong ??..I dont think so ji....Its a foregone conclusion that ALL "interpretations" of Gurbani are personal ...NONE .....except the Original is Gurmatt. Only the Guru has Gurmatt..we ALL 100% are Manmatt holders..some more than others..but manmatt still...The MORE GURMATT we imbibe...the more Gurmatt COLOUR we exhibit...thats all..

regards

 

[Luckysingh]

And no matter how hard I try to dismiss a spiritual nonphysical aspect to existence and dismiss a conscious creator - I just can't. Life would seem so hopeless and meaningless if we were just accidents with no purpose. And further to that, I just don't get that meaning coming to me in Gurbani at all. I feel it... deeply inside every time I listen that there is MUCH MUCH more to existence... that we are spiritual beings... not merely physical. That there is more to life than just this puny physical existence (puny in the sense compared to the Universe we are merely a tiny speck - at least our physical shell).

I am not dismissing that there can be interpretation that can apply to physical life... but I believe that the miracle of Gurbani is that it can contain in the same words, messages for both physical life AND spiritual! So if someone is only looking to see a physical material world meaning then that is all they will see and it will be there for them... but those looking for a deeper spiritual meaning pertaining to life beyond the physical, that will also be there and they will see it.... two messages contained in the same exact verses. And that's what I believe is so awe inspiring! So I am not dismissing the purely physical, material...nonspiritual interpretations at all... but I do wish that those who only go looking for meaning pertaining to the physical material world, would also have a teeny bit of an open mind and also consider the possibility that it also contains meaning on the spiritual level too.

Absolutely!
Firstly, we are just a small puny 10%, if that, of the whole existence.
Our brains are only ever using 10% of the capacity.

I have said it many times before,... that gurbani is agam,agad,bodh (ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਬੋਧਿ)- A treasure of immeasurable depth and limits. It is Unlimited,Infinite and All powerful...

The strength and understanding gets deeper and deeper as you become more spiritual.

However, the ones that just look and understand the literal, surface meanings as the be all and end all, are also the ones that love to stand on the wall and shout at the spiritual seekers.
I wouldn't let any person or wall come in between the way of your deeper self and waheguru.
The seekers will continue seeking and the knower's can remain on the walls...

Saas saas simro gobind.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Another MYTH bites the dust...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ime-nerves-cells-involved-thought-active.html

:grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh::grinningsingh:

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The other myths..are not tangible...so a bit more difficult to grasp...while standing on a wall..

and i always thought that the ones actually taking the Gurbani literally, on the surface as be all and end all were the ones that are "spiritual"...ones..not the ones who go DEEP into the metaphors and scan the ocean floor for the pearls instead of being satisfied with admiring the bubbles on the surface. By "spiritual: i mean the naamjappers number crunchers maala ferrers and mutterers of countless jaaps etc and NOT the Genuinely Spiritual ones like Bhagat kabir Ji, Bahgat ravidass Ji, bahgat namdev Ji, bahgat Dhanna Ji etc who wouldnt be caught dead near a maala or sitting down endlessly muttering under guise of meditation....but busy weaving clothes, mending shoes and curing leather or farming to earn a meagre income to feed themselves and their families via Kirt...

 

[japjisahib04]

The other myths..are not tangible...so a bit more difficult to grasp...while standing on a wall..

and i always thought that the ones actually taking the Gurbani literally, on the surface as be all and end all were the ones that are "spiritual"...ones..not the ones who go DEEP into the metaphors and scan the ocean floor for the pearls instead of being satisfied with admiring the bubbles on the surface. By "spiritual: i mean the naamjappers number crunchers maala ferrers and mutterers of countless jaaps etc and NOT the Genuinely Spiritual ones like Bhagat kabir Ji, Bahgat ravidass Ji, bhagat namdev Ji, bahgat Dhanna Ji etc who wouldnt be caught dead near a maala or sitting down endlessly muttering under guise of meditation....but busy weaving clothes, mending shoes and curing leather or farming to earn a meagre income to feed themselves and their families via Kirt...

Gyani Jee

You have beautifully put it all. After all it is the gian and able to listen the voice of conscience and implement is all what gurbani is telling and not simply muttering and even knowing the meaning. On the other side what makes us genuinely remember God from the core of our heart. It is again gian.

 

[Sherdil]

I came across this wonderful video, which I believe beautifully renders Sikh teachings about the self and the universe. It encompasses exactly what we were discussing before.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5FELdBsixGg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

I came across this wonderful video, which I believe beautifully renders Sikh teachings about the self and the universe. It encompasses exactly what we were discussing before.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5FELdBsixGg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Beautifully put! And is exactly my thinking! Also have a look at the holographic universe videos...

However you do know some on here will call this quantum woo or supernatural nonsense or something...

 

[Harry Haller]

this is all quantum woo or supernatural nonsense, or something

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Heres a rewording of Akashas groups of sikhs....

Yes there are Sikhs who lean heavily on marxist platform who are ATHESTS and who do not believe in God, Creator and or the Gurus as anything more than Better Men than most. Famous writers like the Late Founder Editor of Preetlari which was banned Communist publication during British Rule Gurbaksh Singh had in his writings called Guru Gobind Singh ji a MAN Better than Most. Gurbaksh Singh and his co-marxists DONT beleive in God or anything spiritual. He preached the Gurus as mere Humanists, social reformers, good economic leaders, as they fought against caste and slave albour etc and wnated equality for all - these are features of reform that Marxism shares with Sikhism. BUT no one at SPN - esp those named by Akasha Ji are Marxists as we all have a firm beleif in the Creator and His creation.

There is NONE of these here at SPN. This "Athesit" label also sometimes called the Kala Afghana Label, Rozana Spokesman Label, Anti-Akal takhat Label, is the Favourite way to "tar and feather" those Sikhs who refuse to beleive in miracles and so called spiritual powers of brahmgyanis, Babs and holy waters, holy places of past lives hemkunt etc holy books holy banis of this and that Guru that are NOT in the SGGS.

In the early days of the Internet...there was a good helathy mixture of websites promoting the DG Sikhs point of view and the Not DG sikhs point of views. Slowly the DG point of view Sikhs have taken over/bought over/ ...and closed down the Anti DG Sikhs point of view sites even for Kirtan etc. Now this Onslaught is in full swing on INTERNET RADIO and Radio sites...Famous and well known Radio Presenters have not only been physically attacked, they have been sacked/forced out when their Employers get into hugs with the "cash cows". One most famous name is Jasbir Singh....who used to be a presenter at Punjab radio..He was firstly physically attacked at a Gurmatt camp, badly beaten and then sacked when His Boss changed sides.... Fortunately Internet radio is quite cheap to run and operate..so in their place new ones spring up..radio Virsa NZ, Radio Spokesman, Radio Naad etc etc which carry on vigorously to spread the so called "missionary" Sikhism. Its obvious the DERAWADEE babas have huge monetary resources, and so has the DG Lobby which is backed by the Authorities to the hilt...and thus its normal to see sites on the web that mirror this sikhism...

YET...each and every Attack on Sikhism - be it by the RSS backed Swamis like DyaaNands or the Communists schoalrs, or the MCLeods of the western World...each and every such "attack" was countered NOT by the Babas and Brahmgyanis..BUT by the Missionaries and their allied SCHOLARS. Not a single Baba or dera has written any book defending Sikhsim agains the Mc Leods or the Marxists in our Universities and Media. The Foremost defender of Sikhism is The Institute of Sikh Studies Chandigarh which through its authors Daljit Singh and Kharak Singh etc written many books to expose the MC leods Pashauras and Marxists who attack Sikhism.

Regards


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[Tejwant Singh]

My way or highway only leads us to the cul-de-sacs of our lives.

 

[chazSingh]

I posted this on another thread...something i came across and i think Gurbani portrays creation in a similar way... thought i'd post it here as well.

In the beginning, there was the Self. There was the One Self, and nothing but the Self.
The Self was All One. The Self was all-one. The self was al-one.
In its aloneness the Self considered itself. There was nothing else to consider, since the Self was all there was.

The One Self looked at itself and, in the looking, became two: that which was looked at, and that which was doing the looking.

In looking, there was here and there, and there was movement between the here and the there. In movement, there was vibration, there was energy; and where there was energy there were limitless possibilities.

And the voice of the One Self sang out the One Song, the One Verse, the Uni-Verse, and an infinite richness of light and heat and sound vibrated into being.

Within this great sea of potential, each tiny note trembled and sped, emerged and dissolved and united with others in great patterns and harmonies to give rise to suns and stones and butterfly wings and the concepts of space and time.

And the Onesong, in all its glory, was still One, and the Self was still the One Self, and all things were simply aspects of that One Self.

But being is not the same as experiencing; in order to experience anything, it is necessary to express it. For example, creativity is only experienced when it is expressed through the act of creating something.

Although the Self could never divide itself or become anything other than Self, the infinite shifting patterns within itself created opportunities to express its ideas and to experience them by shifting the position through which it observed the whole.


It could observe from the perspective of a galaxy or a garden snail. It could experience the totality of its whole being, or reflect upon the qualities of a rose through the senses and mental processes of a child.

And, being a child, it could imagine that those senses and mental processes were all it was, and forget its totality for a while.

It could believe itself to be limited and small within an infinite playground, and be awed by the presence of something vast and seemingly other than itself.

It could do that for a whole lifetime or for many lifetimes; or perhaps forever. But there was a sadness in that, because a tiny being within a limitless universe could feel helpless and small and insignificant and thereby lose its sense of meaning and purpose in life.


So, like a traveler in a strange land leaving signs on the road so that he could always find his way back home, it left clues to remind itself of its true identity and in each lifetime it played out the Great Game, the solving of the mystery of "What Am I?"


And the game itself provided meaning and purpose and enjoyment; and when the mystery was solved within a lifetime, that embodiment lived out its remaining years in full awareness of its identity as both a small, separate being and as its whole, universal Self, and this state of awareness became known among human beings as "Enlightenment."

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Chaz Ji, excellently put! It also echoes my belief about creation!!

I have always said this is my belief about the Universe / reality:

"We are the act of the ONE Creator, experiencing itself subjectively through it's own creation; Wherein that creation has evolved to the point of asking the very questions 'Who am I, and Why am I here?' in contemplation of itself."

Simply put:
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji P.599

ਤਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ਸੋਹੰ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥
Ŧaṯ niranjan joṯ sabā▫ī sohaʼn bẖeḏ na ko▫ī jī▫o.
The essence, the immaculate Lord, the Light of all - I am He and He is me - there is no difference between us.

 

[chazSingh]

this is all quantum woo or supernatural nonsense, or something

if that's the case then Gurbani is just some sort of 'quantum woo' or 'supernatural nonsense'...because it describes pretty much the same thing...

the beauty is, if you have the will, determination, open mind...then you have all the tools to unravel this for yourself...

 

[Harry Haller]

ok..

so I have been put in the non spiritual camp, and this thread is about non spiritual vs spiritual,

you spiritual guys have a hunger, a need, your empty, you want something, something to take that dark horrible abyss away, something to fill it, so you are all whole, complete, at peace.

I am also empty, I also know about the horrible abyss, the difference is that I put myself completely in the hands of Creator and Creation to fill that hole, all I have to do is keep giving, keep being pragmatic, keep believing that I actually have a responsibility to my fellow human beings, and that my role is nothing more than enabling the comfort of such to the best of my means, whilst also trying to provide for my family.

If any enlightenment comes my way, it comes by way of Gurparsad, I do not seek it, nor do I can I learn it, however, I will confess that when I do dig deep, very very deep, and find something that confirms something I have learned through Gurparsad, it makes me both happy and humble.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

ok..
If any enlightenment comes my way, it comes by way of Gurparsad, I do not seek it, nor do I can I learn it, however, I will confess that when I do dig deep, very very deep, and find something that confirms something I have learned through Gurparsad, it makes me both happy and humble.

This to me acknowledges that you do believe in the spiritual... just that you are not looking for proof of it / you don't actively look for it, but you do acknowledge that it exists.

Those of us who are seekers, seek only because it's his will I guess.... there is an inner drive within me all my life to find truth. But that doesn't mean those who do not actively seek for it, can not find it... because they do. Up until I was in my teens I didn't search for anything..... it was because I was given what can only be classified as a spiritual expeirence where I experienced first hand what ONEness is, that I started to actively seek... in an almost insatiable way. I believe that thirst for that deeper knowledge was given to me on purpose, just as much as the answer was.

The fact that you do not seek actively for the answers, but openly say that if you experience it, you acknowledge that it exists, and by who's grace you would have received it... shows that you are not in fact, in the 'athiestic' belief group, as those would have said instead there is no creator, and therefore, there is no higher knowledge to seek or higher truth... I think actually this is more agnostic belief? Acknowledgement of a higher power or creator, but that it is not possible to know the nature of, or experience it?? Or do I have athiestic / agnostic backwards?? (I always get them mixed up)

 

[chazSingh]

ok..

so I have been put in the non spiritual camp, and this thread is about non spiritual vs spiritual,

you spiritual guys have a hunger, a need, your empty, you want something, something to take that dark horrible abyss away, something to fill it, so you are all whole, complete, at peace.

I am also empty, I also know about the horrible abyss, the difference is that I put myself completely in the hands of Creator and Creation to fill that hole, all I have to do is keep giving, keep being pragmatic, keep believing that I actually have a responsibility to my fellow human beings, and that my role is nothing more than enabling the comfort of such to the best of my means, whilst also trying to provide for my family.

If any enlightenment comes my way, it comes by way of Gurparsad, I do not seek it, nor do I can I learn it, however, I will confess that when I do dig deep, very very deep, and find something that confirms something I have learned through Gurparsad, it makes me both happy and humble.

not sure it's something missing, or a something i need to fill...

i would describe it as just having a hunch that 'all' is not what it seems or what i believed or was told/taught it to be...

...and a constant 'nudge' within me to go find out more...whatever that more is...

i guess that would pretty much describe us all in some way shape or form

the problem is, there are a million things in the world that can soften the feeling of that 'nudge to seek', that can draw your attention away from the 'nudge' ... throughout my life i've felt that 'nudge' many times, but my attention was drawn to worldy dreams, adevntures, women, intoxicants, money, happiness in a worldy sense...

if you feel the nudge, never let it go...it's often a wake up call.

God Bless ji

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Chaz Ji..Ekannah SUTTIHN de jagai....and Let Sleeping Dogs Lie...its GURPARSAAD thats the KEY. IF HE wills it..we can get the Wake Up call...any time..and IF HE wills it..we NEVER get it...period.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

I have no idea why do we feel the need to label someone about their path as a Sikh, a seeker?

Does it help us in our own Gurmat journey? I do not think so, but it may hinder us if we keep on peeping in someone else's room through their key hole.

Let's let everyone seek their own path, dance with their own drum beat rather than turning up the volume of our own 'boom box' towards them.

This attitude does not do anyone any good but it seems to be harmful and it is also an invasion into one's personal space and journey.

Tejwant Singh