Do Sikhs Believe In Angels?

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

AS long as we sikhs ( and non-sikhs) continue to treat EACH WORD and EACH TUK...as "GURMATT"...we will continue to be in ERROR...

Take for example..the Japji sahib pauree..Patalan patal lakh..akash akas...and most SIKHS will claim that THIS is WHAT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB SAYS....BUT ITS NOT what GURU JI says but what the VEDAS say...which is made clear in the next Tuk... Orrak orrak bhaal thakkeh VED KEHN EK BAAT...

Then the next two linEs tell us what the KITABS..books of the SEMITIC RELIGIONS say..Patalan patal...etc etc...SAHES ATHARANN KEHN kATEBAHN...

BUT WHAT GURU NANAK JI and Hence GURMATT SAYS is in the FINAL TUK...

LEKHAA HOYEH TAAN LIKHYEAH..lekha hoi vinaass..
NANAK WADDA AKHYEAH APPEH JANNEH AAP !!!

and THIS IS WHERE THE bottom line IS...WE CANNOT TAKE THE FIRST FEW LINES AS GURMATT EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THERE IN PLAIN SIGHT IN BLACK AND WHITE !!..BECASUE THEY DONT TELL THE GURMATT POSITION BUT WHAT THE OTHERS CLAIM.....

IN ordinary Legal issues...insurance agreements etc etc..when People get into trouble...they will be ADVISED...DID YOU READ THE FINE PRINT...right at the BOTTOM ?? OF course they DID NOT..or they wont be facing the problem...BUT by then its always TOO LATE..because the Fine Print is actually the MOST IMPORTANT LINES to read....

BUT our GURU JI didnt write the Gurmatt in "fine print..too small for us to read..and be misled...by OMISSION..." He wrote it with RAHAO...PONDER...WAIT...and READ AGAIN..types of WARNINGS...but we like fools still fail to consider those warnings and get lost in One liner MISINTERPRETATIONS...

Akasaan akash...Pataaln pataal...and Now Science has revealed that there is no such thing as SKY..nor is there Nether worlds..below...and WHO IS WRONG ?? NOT GURU NANAK JI..because HE has NOT claimed there are skies or pataals...GURMATT STANDS the TEST OF TIME and SCIENCE as it should because its the Latest Gyaan......NO ERRORS...no mistakes...

Same goes for Bhoots prets.reincarnations joons rebirths etc etc...etc etc...READ the ENTIRE SHABAD and see what GURMATT POSITION IS....you will be surprised...How ever if you read Partial..and then its your own fault for being misled...

For your reading pleasure attached this months sikh bulletin..

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

That's why it makes more sense to read the whole Shabad and analyze it completely rather than just refer to one pankti!

 

[spnadmin]

Your message will have to be repeated, shared and taught time and again. Even one of the most prestigious gurbani search engines actually has a format that encourages one-tuk discovery.

:whatzpointkudi:

Following a major technical overhaul of the site, now we see this:

ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
Gaavan Thudhhano Chith Gupath Likh Jaanan Likh Likh Dhharam Beechaarae ||

गावनि तुधनो चितु गुपतु लिखि जाणनि लिखि लिखि धरमु बीचारे ॥
Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who keep the record of actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who reads this record, sing of You.

392 ਸੋਦਰੁ ਆਸਾ (ਮ: ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮ ਪੰ. ੧੭

Raag Asa Guru Nanak Dev

Share on facebook Share on twitter Share on email More Sharing Services Share

To see the actual dynamic sharing buttons go to http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_granth_sahib/ang/8/line/392

Every tuk can now be "shared" on a solo basis. Which of course makes it seem as if an important group of researchers give their blessing to the discussion of single tuks. And it definitely makes it super easy to send a single tuk across the Internet. This situation has been true for a while, but now I think is a good time to voice my concern.

:whatzpointkudi:

 

[palaingtha]

I think you MISSED my reply ji... I already said that ..Back then I was an impressionable young teen...BUT NOW..with my vast Gurbani related Personal experience and knowledge..I have not an iota of doubt anymore that such things are mere ILLUSION..DHUAANH da Pahaarr...Mountain of Smoke. So harry ji need not answer as I have already disavowed that "experience" as that of an inexperienced teen. Now I am 65 and I KNOW.

I Have searched for another such magician...for past decade or so..no LUCK...and I never expected to find him as he doesnt EXIST as far as I am presently concerned.

In this context I have also read somewhere Maskin ji saying that he could TURN BACK the CLOCKS of everyone present whenever he was LATE for a Programme....so he was always on TIME..even though actually late by an hour or so... THIS i beleive is MASS HYNOPOTISM...that must have been performed on me as a teenager back then...

I am extremely SORRY i cannot agree with you on this BHOOT PRET thingy and my position is exactly that taken by harry haller Ji.

Coincidences are rarely that...ask a Road Engineer..he will tell you that at certain places on Highways etc..the slope..structure etc can cause such trucks to overturn if the drivers drive in a certain way...thats why certain sections of Highways are MARKED.."ACCIDENT PRONE" drive slowly and with caution...

I don't want to carry on extended arguments on the issue any further. Harry Haller is continuously bringing the closed issue of rice/fish etc.again and again. For a gentleman once he says he does not agree with me is sufficient but to bring the matter on every issue puts one to doubt the person concerned may be mentally deranged.
When the matter is closed I never bring it for further discussion or taunt the other person like Harry Haller. But when he taunts again and again I have to reply.
The matter of rice/fish, my dream and toppled trucks is closed. You be with your belief and I with mine. I cannot persuade you to accept what I experienced/believe nor you or anybody else can force me to accept your/their views.
I have no grudges against anybody and I expect the same from all concerned.

 

[palaingtha]

To everyone: My opinion is that if anyone replies to the question about the mother who says "beta this is your father" or the "Joora currency story" in a joking way the comment will be deleted. I understand that it is hard to take comments that contradict our beliefs about jamdoots, prets, bhoots in stride, whether these be pro or con. Try not to see the discussion as a series of personal attacks, and accept the fact that a disagreement is not always a personal attack. Try to avoid jokes, because we can see that some of the participants take this to heart.

I accept whenever anybody disagrees with me for my posts. But it is another matter when somebody taunts my views and not just once but every time he gets an opportunity to do so. Mr. Harry Haller is at liberty to disagree with my views and say so just once but I cannot accept lying down his use of taunting language directed towards me with a view to irritate me.

From spnadmin: Respected palaingtha ji

Try now to put this behind you. I certainly respect your feelings and understand what it is like to feel taunted. Sometimes people swim easily in an atmosphere of joking and poking; but others do not take it so easily. All of us have learned a lesson from your experience and will try to do better.

 

[spnadmin]

I too need to go back to an earlier point about posting single tuks. At Search Gurbani you can see examples of actual dynamic sharing buttons that allow one to share a single tuk.

http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_gr...ang/8/line/392
My concern is that it makes it seem as if an important group of researchers give their blessing to the discussion of single tuks.

There is something else that bothers me: Broadcasting single tuks discourages people from thinking in general. And it discourages people from thinking about something that is more complex than a "bite" of the Guru. News producers on radio, tv and even the Internet look for ways to reduce an in-depth story to a "news bite." Now sharing a single tuk, we have something like a "gurbani bite." The effect is the same. Don't think! Just take in a bite of information and leave it at that.

:whatzpointkudi:
It is like going to a party where trays of snacks are served, but you never get a good meal.

 

[Harry Haller]

It is like going to a party where trays of snacks are served, but you never get a good meal.

Or worse, like going to a party for a sit down dinner, and being served each ingredient, individually, uncooked and unprepared.

 

[spnadmin]

Or worse, like going to a party for a sit down dinner, and being served each ingredient, individually, uncooked and unprepared.

Aye! And hard to endure once you have dined on the alternative.

 

[Luckysingh]

How would we know if there were such things as bhoot and pret amongst us?

They are said to be immaterial hence no physical evidence can be provided. But the same argument can be made about the God and soul. In the latter case, personal experience will suffice IMO. To know God and soul one has to see them oneself.

Perhaps the same is true of bhoot and pret. Only through personal experience can one know them. You have to see for yourself because no one else can present any evidence for it.

I totally agree!!
There is a great deal of people that deal with the 'other side' as we say.
Many around us are involved in seances, the unknown and unexplained. So, I have no right to call these people nuts or bonkers!! If they believe and they know, then I respect that, good for them!
I don't think anywhere in sikhism teachings does it ever deny bhoots and ghoulies. But it does reassure us that a gurmukh is and can't be harmed by these things on the other side.

I really couldn't care less if one believes them or not, as everyone is allowed to have their own personal stance on personal experience.
Has anyone on here ever participated on a ouija board or in a seance of some sort ??
It would be interesting to know the outcomes.

Maybe as a sikh they witnessed something but then again were untouched or affected ?

 

[BhagatSingh]

AS long as we sikhs ( and non-sikhs) continue to treat EACH WORD and EACH TUK...as "GURMATT"...we will continue to be in ERROR...

Accusing your opposition as illiterate, as someone who cannot read an entire shabad is an oversimplification of the complexity of the issue, and sounds quite insulting to be frank.

It is not that one is reading a single tuk or multiple, it is that you have a different framework of beliefs through which you read the scripture that reveals things to be different than those with a different framework. The issue is not of Gurmat but of underlying beliefs of our cultures.

It's not even about science because neither side has employed the scientific method. One simply rejects or accepts bhoot, pret etc, on faith. One also has to understand that modern science itself is built on a particular framework of beliefs about nature. And that these framework of beliefs did not guide ancient science.

It's a clash of cultures and their sciences, and underlying this, the framework of beliefs that guide them, not about reading single or multiple tuks.

We live in a scientific rational culture in which, to great extent, the belief in spirits is not present. The belief in modern science and rationalist thinking with a strong sense of 'I', is detrimental to the belief in spirits. Now, one might say that there are no such things in reality and that science simply guides to this reality.

But what if our beliefs only lead us to a reality consistent with those beliefs. What if because we don't believe in them we don't see them. It could be argued that if we operate from a rationalist, strong sense of 'I' framework we will not see the spirits. Thus we do not see them even if they are there. This is something we must reflect on. Not whether it is true but that it could be true, and it's implications if it is true.

Now we belong to the scientific, rational, strong 'I' culture and don't see spirits. While many who do not share our beliefs actually do see them. If you have ever conversed with them they are just as sure of their eyesight as we are. If we want them to be open to our way of thinking (ie. spirits don't exist), we should be open to their way of thinking (ie spirits exist).

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Its all about CONTEXT....CONTEXT...and CONTEXT.

SINGLE words..Single TUKS....DO NOT Constitute GURMATT ...by which I mean what GURU JI is trying to put across. BY Taking a Single Tuk one is trying to PUT WORDS into the GURUS MOUTH and claim that it is GURMATT.

This is totally out wrong and unfair to the Gurus Message and what Guru is saying GURMATT..its MANMATT pure and simple.

METHODOLOGY of GURBANI SHABADS in SGGS...including those written by the BHAGATS is such that the ENTIRE SHABAD IS COMPULSORY in order to get at the Kernel of GURMATT. To keep on emphasising that the Outer skin of the Coconut is the Coconut Kernel is absurd....the Shabads OUTER ( First few lines Tuks are the Cover...the skin..useful..but NOT Gurmatt...not the Kernel...the Kernel is UNDER all those lines..and is IN the RAHAO TUK or Nanak Tuk or Kabir Tuk...and its usually always the Lines towards the END..BOTTOM LINES.

Beleiving or not beleiving is a personal matter..BUT Claiming that the GURU SAW this and that..and he wrote it in SGGS..iL FALSE result because there is no such thing.
All those who are actively PROMOTING SINGLE TUKS are putting the Gurus words out of CONTEXT and twisting GURMATT which depends on the Entire shabad be read in TOTAL. REMOVING certain words / Lines/ Tuks/ paras OUT of someones writings and out of CONTEXT is universally regarded as FALSIFYING.

 

[Luckysingh]

GREAT!!!
That sounds more like it.
Because all the tuks that are used to deny meditation, coming and going..etc.. are simply falsified as the true meaning is taken OUT of context !!

The WHOLE panth is divided exactly because of what you have quoted Gyaniji.
We have huge divisions of whom accept and others that deny.
Then we have the huge division that even denies that page 1430 is not akaal purakhs message or gurbani- It is just an index of mentioned raags!!!

This is the ROOT of all problems in the divided sikh panth!

 

[spnadmin]

Reply to 2 forum members as follows:

1.

I totally agree!!
I really couldn't care less if one believes them or not, as everyone is allowed to have their own personal stance on personal experience.
Has anyone on here ever participated on a ouija board or in a seance of some sort ??
Maybe as a sikh they witnessed something but then again were untouched or affected ?

Luckysingh ji,

That is fine with me too, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with Shabad Guru or whether Sikhi supports belief in angels. Of course individuals believe all sorts of things. But do you really believe that one opinion is as good as another?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2. Baghat Singh Sadhu ji

Gyani Jarnail Singh said and you quoted

AS long as we sikhs ( and non-sikhs) continue to treat EACH WORD and EACH TUK...as "GURMATT"...we will continue to be in ERROR...

What in that statement do you not understand? This thread is in the Sikh Sikhi Sikhism subforum of SPN. It is not in a comparative metaphysics of the world forum. Thus, it does make a difference, it is wrong, to use a single word or a single tuk to support a belief that is discouraged in Shabad Guru.

When did Gyani ji use the word "illiterate?" His point was that gurbani can not be made to mean whatever you want it to mean. If you read a few posts back, he wrote that tuks do not acquire meanings from external sources but from the totality of the shabad guru itself. You are free to disagree; but all opinions are not equally well-informed.

So one can choose, and one should choose, either to ground understanding in a complete shabad, or to ground understanding in cultural preferences and personal intuitions. One approach is gurmatt (guru's wisdom) and the other is manmatt (concoctions of ordinary mind and thought).

To belabor cultural explanations for the super-normal and supernatural that disagree with the scientific-rational framework of the west is a red-herring in the context of this discussion. I find it insulting anyone would assume that most of us do not already understand that and have moved on.

 

[Luckysingh]

SPNadminji,
I think that you are mixing Bhagatji's and my post together, when they are from two completely different angles! (I never quoted or commented the above mentioned!)

 

[spnadmin]

Luckysingh ji

First quote is your comment at this permalink

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/2139-do-sikhs-believe-in-angels.html#post177476

The second quote is from Bhagat Singh.

I will put a line between the 2 to make it clear.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Veera There is nothing but Spirit ,this is Spirit Philosophy Network,Our Guru is our Spiritual advisor,Spirit embedded in writing is the key to our understanding,context comes and goes.Is not Sikhism a Spirit of sorts.

 

[BhagatSingh]

Veera There is nothing but Spirit ,this is Spirit Philosophy Network,Our Guru is our Spiritual advisor,Spirit embedded in writing is the key to our understanding,context comes and goes.Is not Sikhism a Spirit of sorts.

Veerji,
Everything is ultimately spirit. I speak in and of duality, about the various disembodied spirits and whether they are real. I think certain people can see/sense them, others cannot. Can you see disembodied spirits?

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

CHHAYAA..is the term that we refer to when we want to say that a Person is having a Evil Spirit..bhoot..pret..etc..( what others call EXORCISM RITES etc to cast out such Spirits etc)..and this CHHAIYAH is what the Dera Wadbhag Singh does...they drive out bhoots and prets...

But Page 433 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=433

SGGS calls CHHAIYAH..."SPIRITUAL IGNORANCE"...as opposed to "SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE"...."Darkness is simply the ABSENCE of LIGHT...IGNORANCE is the absence of KNOWLEDGE...the SGGS is GYAAN...KNOWLEDGE...absence of Gyaan knowledge leads to CHHAIYAH. PRITPAL SINGH in his monumental Thus sayeth Gurbani lsits several such shabds under spiritual ignorance/exorcism/bhoots/prets. evil spirits etc..all give the exact same meaning as SPIRITUAL IGNORANCE absence of GYAAN knowledge of the CREATOR.

Same meaning is given time and again through out the SGGS...but we need to have the GYAAN..the LIGHT..in order to be able to SEE...Absence of Gyaan Light leads to darkness spiritual IGNORANCE.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

On a related Note..this tarksheel Society is a group of RATIONALISTS who although not religious based..do DISSEMINATE GYAAN-KNOWLEDGE to dispell thsi IGNORANCe and Darkness that afflicts all with CHHAIYAH..evil spirits bhoots prets etc...they have hundreds of case studies on their hands..and also lots of first hand stories...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarksheel_Society

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

This LADY admits the SPIRIT of Baba DEEP SINGH never entered her at all..its all a Blatant LIE...No suhc SPIRIT ever EXISTED.... Hundreds of thousands of such TANTRIKS feed on the DARKNESS and IGNORANCE in the ABSENCE OF GYAAN revealed in SGGS.....IF we keep on SUPPORTING such SPIRITUAL IGNORANCE..then we are equally GUILTY of spreading IGNORANCE and DARKNESS...

pakhandi baba - YouTube