my understanding of your post is that you are suggesting the subjects in debate have little to do with death and rebirth, could you clarify?
Yes, in my opinion... this needs to be looked from individual live experience perspective not as doctrine, unfortunately many people have turned these relatives/realities/truths- reincarnation, transmigration, hell, heaven into abstract conceptual philosophy, abstract absolute belief system, doctrine etc but forgotten to investigate within ourselves beyond our conditioned conceptual belief mindset see it for themselves if they exist, have direct live experience with it.
Everyone can relate to deep sleep some investigation may need to be done and ask ourselves truly within if this whole world, reincarnation, transmigration, death, rebirth really exist as absolute reality? If yes, what happens in deep sleep? Where does it go? I identification-illusory identification with world is not there so therefore no separate relative fragmented reality- world, reincarnation, karam, transmigration exist its not validated by I pure consciousness in deep sleep. I may be in deep sleep but I -pure unconditioned consciousness is still there otherwise how does I(consciousness) surat) have a knowledge(gayat) that i had a good refresh sleep?
I consider absolute reality as something which never changes-unchanged-sat-truth which is always there-eternal beyond birth and death.
In great statements of Gurbani in sukhmani sahib in 21st asthpadi. Gurbani is talking about absolute reality perspective where reality is ONE not fragmented where reincarnation, transmigration simply don't exist in I pure unconditioned awakened perception. It may exist as relative realities for others but I who is perceiving absolute reality- this things does not exist so its not the world, transmigration, reincarnation validates/invalidates the expereince of existence to us its other way around-We as individuals do. Unfortunately, many people read the below gurbani great statements with seperate doctrine/philosophy out there somewhere rather bringing these statement in one absolute indivisible reality into one own deep meditative inquiry experience.
Here we go - (don't mind abhramic translation of lord translation- i would rather replace abhramic version of lord with lord in all, all in lord or absolute truth-sat with purpose of my clear understanding)
ਜਬ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥
जब अकारु इहु कछु न द्रिसटेता ॥
Jab akār ih kacẖẖ na ḏaristeṯā.
When this world had not yet appeared in any form,
ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਤਬ ਕਹ ਤੇ ਹੋਤਾ ॥
पाप पुंन तब कह ते होता ॥
Pāp punn ṯab kah ṯe hoṯā.
who then committed sins and performed good deeds?
ਜਬ ਧਾਰੀ ਆਪਨ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ॥
जब धारी आपन सुंन समाधि ॥
Jab ḏẖārī āpan sunn samāḏẖ.
When the Lord Himself was in Profound Samaadhi,
ਤਬ ਬੈਰ ਬਿਰੋਧ ਕਿਸੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਮਾਤਿ ॥
तब बैर बिरोध किसु संगि कमाति ॥
Ŧab bair biroḏẖ kis sang kamāṯ.
then against whom were hate and jealousy directed?
ਜਬ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਪਤ ॥
जब इस का बरनु चिहनु न जापत ॥
Jab is kā baran cẖihan na jāpaṯ.
When there was no color or shape to be seen,
ਤਬ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸਹਿ ਬਿਆਪਤ ॥
तब हरख सोग कहु किसहि बिआपत ॥
Ŧab harakẖ sog kaho kisėh bi▫āpaṯ.
then who experienced joy and sorrow?
ਜਬ ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਆਪਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥
जब आपन आप आपि पारब्रहम ॥
Jab āpan āp āp pārbarahm.
When the Supreme Lord Himself was Himself All-in-all,
ਤਬ ਮੋਹ ਕਹਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਹੋਵਤ ਭਰਮ ॥
तब मोह कहा किसु होवत भरम ॥
Ŧab moh kahā kis hovaṯ bẖaram.
then where was emotional attachment, and who had doubts?
ਆਪਨ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤੀਜਾ ॥
आपन खेलु आपि वरतीजा ॥
Āpan kẖel āp varṯījā.
He Himself has staged His own drama;
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥
नानक करनैहारु न दूजा ॥१॥
Nānak karnaihār na ḏūjā. ||1||
O Nanak, there is no other Creator. ||1||
ਜਬ ਹੋਵਤ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਵਲ ਧਨੀ ॥
जब होवत प्रभ केवल धनी ॥
Jab hovaṯ parabẖ keval ḏẖanī.
When there was only God the Master,
ਤਬ ਬੰਧ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸ ਕਉ ਗਨੀ ॥
तब बंध मुकति कहु किस कउ गनी ॥
Ŧab banḏẖ mukaṯ kaho kis ka▫o ganī.
then who was called bound or liberated?
ਜਬ ਏਕਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
जब एकहि हरि अगम अपार ॥
Jab ekėh har agam apār.
When there was only the Lord, Unfathomable and Infinite,
ਤਬ ਨਰਕ ਸੁਰਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਉਨ ਅਉਤਾਰ ॥
तब नरक सुरग कहु कउन अउतार ॥
Ŧab narak surag kaho ka▫un a▫uṯār.
then who entered hell, and who entered heaven? Who was avtar?
ਜਬ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
जब निरगुन प्रभ सहज सुभाइ ॥
Jab nirgun parabẖ sahj subẖā▫e.
When God was without attributes, in absolute poise,
ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥
तब सिव सकति कहहु कितु ठाइ ॥
Ŧab siv sakaṯ kahhu kiṯ ṯẖā▫e.
then where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?
ਜਬ ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਅਪਨੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਧਰੈ ॥
जब आपहि आपि अपनी जोति धरै ॥
Jab āpėh āp apnī joṯ ḏẖarai.
When He held His Own Light unto Himself,
ਤਬ ਕਵਨ ਨਿਡਰੁ ਕਵਨ ਕਤ ਡਰੈ ॥
तब कवन निडरु कवन कत डरै ॥
Ŧab kavan nidar kavan kaṯ darai.
then who was fearless, and who was afraid?
ਆਪਨ ਚਲਿਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥
आपन चलित आपि करनैहार ॥
Āpan cẖaliṯ āp karnaihār.
He Himself is the Performer in His own plays;
ਨਾਨਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰ ॥੨॥
नानक ठाकुर अगम अपार ॥२॥
Nānak ṯẖākur agam apār. ||2||
O Nanak, the Lord Master is Unfathomable and Infinite. ||2||
ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਸੁਖ ਆਪਨ ਆਸਨ ॥
अबिनासी सुख आपन आसन ॥
Abẖināsī sukẖ āpan āsan.
When the Immortal Lord was seated at ease,
ਤਹ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਾ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ॥
तह जनम मरन कहु कहा बिनासन ॥
Ŧah janam maran kaho kahā bināsan.
then where was birth, death and dissolution?
ਜਬ ਪੂਰਨ ਕਰਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
जब पूरन करता प्रभु सोइ ॥
Jab pūran karṯā parabẖ so▫e.
When there was only God, the Perfect Creator,
ਤਬ ਜਮ ਕੀ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਸੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
तब जम की त्रास कहहु किसु होइ ॥
Ŧab jam kī ṯarās kahhu kis ho▫e.
then who was afraid of death?
ਜਬ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਏਕਾ ॥
जब अबिगत अगोचर प्रभ एका ॥
Jab abigaṯ agocẖar parabẖ ekā.
When there was only the One Lord, unmanifest and incomprehensible,
ਤਬ ਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਗੁਪਤ ਕਿਸੁ ਪੂਛਤ ਲੇਖਾ ॥
तब चित्र गुपत किसु पूछत लेखा ॥
Ŧab cẖiṯar gupaṯ kis pūcẖẖaṯ lekẖā.
then who was called to account by the recording scribes of the conscious and the subconscious?
ਜਬ ਨਾਥ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਅਗਾਧੇ ॥
जब नाथ निरंजन अगोचर अगाधे ॥
Jab nāth niranjan agocẖar agāḏẖe.
When there was only the Immaculate, Incomprehensible, Unfathomable Master,
ਤਬ ਕਉਨ ਛੁਟੇ ਕਉਨ ਬੰਧਨ ਬਾਧੇ ॥
तब कउन छुटे कउन बंधन बाधे ॥
Ŧab ka▫un cẖẖute ka▫un banḏẖan bāḏẖe.
then who was emancipated, and who was held in bondage?
ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਅਚਰਜਾ ॥
आपन आप आप ही अचरजा ॥
Āpan āp āp hī acẖarjā.
He Himself, in and of Himself, is the most wonderful.
ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਨ ਰੂਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਉਪਰਜਾ ॥੩॥
नानक आपन रूप आप ही उपरजा ॥३॥
Nānak āpan rūp āp hī uparjā. ||3||
O Nanak, He Himself created His Own Form. ||3||
