Do You Believe In Reincarnation Or Transmigration?

[Sherdil]

Precisely, which is why Im confused about how some other posters are explaining complicated, esoteric systems of reincarnation and karma etc when Im not getting explanations of this system from the Gurbani. The Gurbani paints a simple picture and puts the emphasis squarely where it needs to be but posters here are explaining the ins and outs of things like reincarnation and have obviously given it much thought, so I ask the questions.

It is complicated only because we are trying to describe something that we cannot observe directly with the senses. Blind mice trying to describe an elephant, yeah?

I don't believe in reincarnation because I don't think it fits into the overall ethos of gurbani. It has to have uniformity, otherwise it is a contradictory philosophy.

If we can achieve Mukhti while alive, then why do we have to wait until death for the other stuff to take effect?

8.4 lakh junoons, but I have yet to read an account of how our consciousness moves from one species to the next. How did we arrive at that number anyway? Did some pandit / taxidermist travel the world, documenting all the species he came across? Zoologists are still discovering new species today. All the more reason to believe it is a metaphorical reference that has been used to explain a greater point.

Even Guru ji found this hard to explain:


This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji on Pannaa 8

karam kha(n)dd kee baanee jor ||
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

thithhai hor n koee hor ||
No one else dwells there,

thithhai jodhh mehaabal soor ||
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

thin mehi raam rehiaa bharapoor ||
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

thithhai seetho seethaa mehimaa maahi ||
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

thaa kae roop n kathhanae jaahi ||
Their beauty cannot be described.

naa ouhi marehi n t(h)aagae jaahi ||
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

jin kai raam vasai man maahi ||
within whose minds the Lord abides.

thithhai bhagath vasehi kae loa ||
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

karehi ana(n)dh sachaa man soe ||
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

sach kha(n)dd vasai nira(n)kaar ||
In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

kar kar vaekhai nadhar nihaal ||
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.

thithhai kha(n)dd ma(n)ddal varabha(n)dd ||
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.

jae ko kathhai th a(n)th n a(n)th ||
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.

thithhai loa loa aakaar ||
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.

jiv jiv hukam thivai thiv kaar ||
As He commands, so they exist.

vaekhai vigasai kar veechaar ||
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.

naanak kathhanaa kararraa saar ||37||
O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

 

[Sherdil]

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji on Pannaa 464

mÚ 1 ]
ma 1 ||
First Mehla:

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||
O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

kaetheeaa ka(n)nh kehaaneeaa kaethae baedh beechaar ||
There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

kaethae nachehi ma(n)gathae girr murr poorehi thaal ||
So many beggars dance, spinning around to the beat.

baajaaree baajaar mehi aae kadtehi baajaar ||
The magicians perform their magic in the market place, creating a false illusion

gaavehi raajae raaneeaa bolehi aal pathaal ||
They sing as kings and queens, and speak of this and that.

lakh ttakiaa kae mu(n)dharrae lakh ttakiaa kae haar ||
They wear earrings, and necklaces worth thousands of dollars.

jith than paaeeahi naanakaa sae than hovehi shhaar ||
Those bodies on which they are worn, O Nanak, those bodies turn to ashes.

giaan galeeee dtoodteeai kathhanaa kararraa saar ||
Wisdom cannot be found through mere words. To explain it is as hard as iron.

karam milai thaa paaeeai hor hikamath hukam khuaar ||2||
When the Lord bestows His Grace, then alone it is received; other tricks and orders are useless.||2||

 

[Gurdeep94]

I do believe in reincarnation coz i think that the soul or spirit, after biological death, begins a new life in a new body that may be human, animal or spiritual depending on their karma.:happysingh:

 

[Harry Haller]

Luckyji


you may find the following as an item of interest!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Delta-Des...cessories_Safety_Security&hash=item338a1efa73

 

[Sherdil]

Lucky ji,

Jivan mukhti is the goal. To be a Jivan Mukht means that your consciousness has united with the Truth while you are alive.

Death is when the consciousness is no more. The part of the shabadh that I highlighted explains that those who have united their consciousness with the Truth do not die. They live on because they have joined with the Truth, which is timeless. They are free from birth and death.

Those who focus their consciousness on the material world will die, because materialistic things do not last. They are transient. They come and go.

The cycle of birth and death is synonymous with suffering. That suffering can be experienced in a single life. Have you heard the expression "To die a thousand deaths" or "Born-Again Christian"?

In Sikhi, one of the 5 thieves is "Ahankaar". This means pride in one's intelligence, wealth, abilities, etc. It is ahankaar to pretend to know what will happen to you when you die. As mortals, we only know about this life. Thus, what is mentioned in gurbani has to be framed within what we experience in this life.

The litmus test is to insert the idea of reincarnation into gurbani, and then remove it to see if the core message changes. It does not. The Gurmukh is still encouraged to seek the Truth in everything around him. He is still encouraged to make the Truth the focus of his life, rather than the materialistic world. He is still told that he can merge his mind with the Truth, thus putting an end to his suffering.

 

[spnadmin]

Lucky ji

My question was very clear. Now instead of prolonging a futile exchange i will begin deleting statements to follow that do not comply.

 

[spnadmin]

As a forum note. SPN clearly states that deletions can occur at any time without any explanation. Where previous deletions occurred in this thread, they were preceded by requests for clarification.The questions I posed went unanswered. They were followed up with rudeness. Further action may need to be taken if this continues.

 

[Luckysingh]

My sincere apologies if you perceived my ignorance as rudeness.
I came back from my yoga class with all my chakras aligned, which in turn helped inspire a divine reminder.
I don't want spn contributing to negative karmic imprints on my aura or adding more weight to my already heavy soul.
I should know better to forgive others myself and ask for forgiveness, after all, my ant-kal may arrive tomorrow for all I know.

For a moment, I had forgotten that I don't run the show and neither do I role the dice, on this forum or anywhere else.

I will try and send you all a blessing of the healing divine white light.

night-night

 

[Luckysingh]

Luckyji


you may find the following as an item of interest!

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How did you guess it was my birthday ?

 

[angrisha]

?

8.4 lakh junoons, but I have yet to read an account of how our consciousness moves from one species to the next. How did we arrive at that number anyway? Did some pandit / taxidermist travel the world, documenting all the species he came across? Zoologists are still discovering new species today. All the more reason to believe it is a metaphorical reference that has been used to explain a greater point.

E||37||

I know this a small section of your post, however... i was curious one day about this number as well and I googled the actual number of known species it actually came up to 8.7 million..... so not exact put close enough... considering that knowledge 500 years ago was not known at the scale we do now... Always makes me amazed at the intelligence....

The best theory Ive heard, because we are all energy and energy is transferable.... its actually your energy that transfers not necessarily your consciousness in tact (if you so choose to believe)

 

[Harry Haller]

Other members have answered the whole thing quite well above.
Guru's message is NOT that there is no reincarnation or karma,..but you have this ONE chance to make the difference regardless of if it exists.

that's a very big 'not' you have there, and its not just a personal 'not' its a 'not' that is being preached...

Why be worrying about it, when you can BYPASS all of these lower planes/stages and merge straight into WAHEGURU.

I was not aware of any lower planes or stages, neither was I aware that I had unmerged at some point.

Jivan mukht means that you can experience this whilst living, and don't have to wait until after death. It's not the complete immersion into waheguru's ocean, because that happens after death.

as my sis stated, how can you possibly know?

It's the lower stages of mukti where one's identity still remains.
Jivan mukht should NOT be mistaken as the ''Be all and End all''
You have to understand that everything happens and follows orders of layers/stages/states of mind.

see..http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questi...tml#post196086

so this is not just your opinion, this is fact!

.....see .from the same post i referenced above

well,I would say you have some way to go before you can claim to have conquered ego......

Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA.
Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
BUT,BUT........BUT...

Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder !
WHY ??
Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA.
It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.

the esoteric layers of Sikhim hmmmmm

well pardon me, but I would do anything to get AWAY from the esoteric layers, in fact these layers stand for everything against Sikhism

es·o·ter·ic

/ˌɛs

əˈtɛr

ɪk/ Show Spelled [es-uh-ter-ik] Show IPA
adjective 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions.

2. belonging to the select few.

3. private; secret; confidential.

4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras

How did you guess it was my birthday ?

actually I am being naïve, you probably already have one


well good luck with your secret squirrel society

 

[Satyaban]

In each of us is the light of the Creator, summed up beautifully in the Sikh name Harjot. This jot is Eternal, immortal. It is this that goes from one body to the next. I call it my soul.

Eventually it will return from whence it came.

This is my belief. Too simple, I'm afraid.

Concise and to the point. I like it.

 

[Satyaban]

This is what Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said about Hindus and karma:
Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names a universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction which governs all life. Karma is a natural law of the mind, just as gravity is a law of matter.

Karma is not fate, for man acts of free will, creating his own destiny. The Vedas tell us, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determine our future. It is the interplay between our experience and how we respond to that makes karma devastating or helpfully invigorating. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction. Not all karmas rebound immediately. Some accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other births. The several kind of karma are: personal, family, community, national, global and universal. Ancient rishis perceived personal karma's three fold edict. The first is sanchita, the sum total of past karmas yet to be resolved. The second is prurabdha, that portion sanchita to be experienced in this life. Kriyamana, the third type, is karma we are currently creating. The Vedas propound, "Here they say that a person consists of desires. And as is his desire, so is his will, so he is the deed. What ever deed he does, that he will reap."

He goes on to say:
In the highest sense, there is no good or bad karma. All experience offers opportunities for spiritual growth. Selfless acts yield positive, uplifting conditions. Selfish acts yield conditions of negativity and confusion.

"The law of karma is neutral, like the grain in the man's pouch. One lady puts out grain for hungry crows. Seeing a beggar's pleading tears, a man hoards his grain, bringing tears to his own eyes as well. Another man stealing grain, lands in jail"

 

[Sherdil]

This is what Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said about Hindus and karma:
Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names a universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction which governs all life. Karma is a natural law of the mind, just as gravity is a law of matter.

Karma is not fate, for man acts of free will, creating his own destiny. The Vedas tell us, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determine our future. It is the interplay between our experience and how we respond to that makes karma devastating or helpfully invigorating. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction. Not all karmas rebound immediately. Some accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other births. The several kind of karma are: personal, family, community, national, global and universal. Ancient rishis perceived personal karma's three fold edict. The first is sanchita, the sum total of past karmas yet to be resolved. The second is prurabdha, that portion sanchita to be experienced in this life. Kriyamana, the third type, is karma we are currently creating. The Vedas propound, "Here they say that a person consists of desires. And as is his desire, so is his will, so he is the deed. What ever deed he does, that he will reap."

He goes on to say:
In the highest sense, there is no good or bad karma. All experience offers opportunities for spiritual growth. Selfless acts yield positive, uplifting conditions. Selfish acts yield conditions of negativity and confusion.

"The law of karma is neutral, like the grain in the man's pouch. One lady puts out grain for hungry crows. Seeing a beggar's pleading tears, a man hoards his grain, bringing tears to his own eyes as well. Another man stealing grain, lands in jail"

This post is a perfect example of how the Sikh Gurus have taken terminology from Hindu beliefs and applied them in a new context.

Here is how I feel Sikh Philosophy differs from what Satyaban has written:

1) Gurbani says that our destiny (lekha) has already been written. It cannot be changed. Whatever happens is the only thing that could have happened.

2) Karma is a system of action and reaction, by which we fulfill our destiny (lekha). "Aapeh beejh, aapeh hi khao. Nanak, Hukmi aavo jaho". You reap what you sow. By His command, we come and go.

3) It is the illusion of Maya that makes one believe they have free will. "Hukmae andar sabh koh, bahaar Hukam nah koi". Everything falls under His control. Nothing is outside of it.

This shabadh is by Guru Nanak dev ji, on pannaa 7:

aakhan jor chupai neh jor ||
jor n ma(n)gan dhaen n jor ||
jor n jeevan maran neh jor ||
jor n raaj maal man sor ||
jor n surathee giaan veechaar ||
jor n jugathee shhuttai sa(n)saar ||
jis hathh jor kar vaekhai soe ||
naanak outham neech n koe ||33||

No power to speak, no power to keep silent.
No power to beg, no power to give.
No power to live, no power to die.
No power to rule, with wealth and occult mental powers.
No power to gain intuitive understanding, spiritual wisdom and meditation.
No power to find the way to escape from the world.
He alone has the Power in His Hands. He watches over all.
O Nanak, no one is high or low. ||33||

To put this into Hindu terminology: The atman (consciousness) is part of the Supreme Brahman (Ik Oankar). Whatever actions it does, is willed by the Supreme Brahman. They are one and the same.

5) Satyaban has stated "The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction".

In the Ramayana, Lord Rama's actions were fueled by passion. Yet he is considered to be a god by Hindus.

The Gurus believed that we had to act to eliminate suffering in this world. Action sometimes entails war and violence to remove tyranny.

If passionate action is taken to alleviate the suffering of others, then it is a selfless act. No karma accrued.

 

[Satyaban]

Sherdil ji:

"If passionate action is taken to alleviate the suffering of others, then it is a selfless act. No karma accrued."

The problem with that is it incurs attachments to the results along with expectations which are obstacles to self-realization. Acts should be performed without attachments and expectations.

"To put this into Hindu terminology: The atman (consciousness) is part of the Supreme Brahman (Ik Oankar). Whatever actions it does, is willed by the Supreme Brahman. They are one and the same."

This depends on what level of consciousness you are talking about. The atman is not physical body, emotions, external mind or personality. The atman is eternal, what continues after physical death, the transcendent Self God within.

What does Sikh philosophy say about the destination of the soul or atman of a person who does not live in consonance of with the times and lives an adharmic life? You all do not believe in a hell do you?

 

[Satyaban]

Harry ji brings up another point:

What if the mother is an alcoholic and a druggy? Isn't it then her fault for her baby's defect?

My take is that who we are is based on the meeting between our parents. If they never found each other, then we wouldn't be here. There never was another me and there never will be one in the future.

Now is my one and only chance to realize Ik Oankaar.

What happens if you fail in this endeavor, your atman or soul ceases to be?

 

[Luckysingh]

Lucky ji,

Jivan mukhti is the goal. To be a Jivan Mukht means that your consciousness has united with the Truth while you are alive.

I agree absolutely. The old concepts and ideas of mukti were all on the idea that the liberation, salvation, nirvana..etc.. could only happen after one was 'free' from this life. They made it sound as if all the oneness, realization, unity..etc.. would happen 'after'.

This itself gives a slight negative stance to our life now. -As if there is light only at the end of the tunnel(life) and you will have to wait until you get there, providing you stay in the right tunnel !

To me, Guruji simply says ''Why Not ?, Why wait until you reach the end ?''
You can experience the anand of the light while you are still in the life tunnel, you don't have to reach the end(meaning death), You don't have to reach the end to experience it''

I said that jivan mukti should not be considered as ''the be all and end all'' meaning that we shouldn't create our own road blocks. He is nirankar,
timeless, formless, without any limitations whatsoever. So if we can never know the limitations, then we should be careful of thinking of anything as the be all and end all.
We are in the bounds of time here and we don't know what happens with the formless,timeless, soul or consciousness.
We are in this kapra of a body, that itself is given according to karma (karmi avai kaprah, nadri mokh duar). When we leave the kapra, then only he knows what the fate is next, we can't decide or plan that here.
I believe that eventually we fully merge, considering your way up on that conscious/soul evolving process.
We are the jyot saroop, therefore, there would come a point eventually where we are completely advait(non-dual) and have no identity of self whatsoever. This is when the pure jyot merges and only ONE light remains.

When theof our body dies, then the consciousness in it's absolute pure and truthful form, can merge with his. This is what I understand as the absolute state of jyot merging in jyot.

That's your understanding as far as you know, and I explained a little of mine about this above.
As I said, I understand that my consciousness/soul/jyot is eternal and beyond any limitations.

Death is when the consciousness is no more.

I've already said that I don't agree or understand how that could be.
To me, death, is of the body kapra (and organs) only. The way I see it, is that Life and death are dualities that we only experience in this time bound world.
When we are no more, then we are not subject to dualities.
But the consciousness was never subject to any duality, as it was just masked according to the will of our mind. Also, because there is no opposite of consciousness/soul/jyot, so it is out of the confines of duality just as the Lord himself. This body bound and covered consciousness is a minuscule part of the larger conscious.
Don't you agree ??

The part of the shabadh that I highlighted explains that those who have united their consciousness with the Truth do not die. They live on because they have joined with the Truth, which is timeless. They are free from birth and death.

That part of the shabad is about the realms or states of consciousness, (5 khand) that itself has been debated on many other threads of this forum. I have never noted any aspect of reincarnation or live forever message.

Those who focus their consciousness on the material world will die, because materialistic things do not last. They are transient. They come and go.

Agree, absolutely !

The cycle of birth and death is synonymous with suffering. That suffering can be experienced in a single life. Have you heard the expression "To die a thousand deaths" or "Born-Again Christian"?

Again, it's about dualites, which can all be synonymous. A world of opposites, including the way we act and conduct ourselves.

In Sikhi, one of the 5 thieves is "Ahankaar". This means pride in one's intelligence, wealth, abilities, etc. It is ahankaar to pretend to know what will happen to you when you die. As mortals, we only know about this life. Thus, what is mentioned in gurbani has to be framed within what we experience in this life.

ABSOLUTELY !
We are only fooling ourselves if we think we can know and plan our liberation and merging with him.
We can make the damned start right now and aim for it whilst alive.
I like what you said above, because we are using the same EGO to make the plans for after death, whereas Guruji says that if you KILL the very EGO, and obviously still remain alive(breathing and in the sareer), you can still get to experience the freedom of liberation/salvation/mukti/moksha..etc..
Kill the same EGO that fools you into thinking the light is only seen at the end.
Once this can be killed, then the jyot can be seen,felt and experienced whilst in the middle of the tunnel.
However, as we will still get to this life-tunnel end once the kapra goes, only He knows what happens or what we experience, which is why I say don't make jivan mukht a road block 'as the be all and end all'

NOTE- we have many accounts of people from all faiths having near death experiences and out of body...etc...and some of them experience or see the light, see angels, see jesus, see loved ones, ..see heavenly paradise...etc... BUT no one, absolutely No one, comes back and says, they merged in it's entirety. Most of them claim to be nearing it and nearing it, and wanting to get as close to it, but then they come back. Therefore, if one did merge, in all completeness, then they become GOD or the light itself and can't obviously come back to tell the experience, since no identity or subtle ego even remains.

The litmus test is to insert the idea of reincarnation into gurbani, and then remove it to see if the core message changes. It does not. The Gurmukh is still encouraged to seek the Truth in everything around him. He is still encouraged to make the Truth the focus of his life, rather than the materialistic world. He is still told that he can merge his mind with the Truth, thus putting an end to his suffering.

You both hammered and nailed it there !!:icecreammunda:
I've tried to explain this previously but could never find the words and explanation as simple as you made it !
A sikh is to learn,learn,learn and continue learning. This is why we have to be careful of ego, telling us to make only logic out of everything.
I feel that the soul can continue to be learning long after death of the kapra-body. We have to be careful not to make any preconceptions of finite, and this includes making the decision that there may or maybe reincarnation. Even making the decision that it all becomes 'kaput' and that nothing shall remain except worm food, is still the same EGO assuming the timeless aspect or work of God.
We should just get on with it ourselves and try and find out what jivan mukti is about.

I hope I've made myself a little clearer as to what I exactly meant with what i said in the earlier posts. I know some of you are under some impression that i've been possessed or brainwashed with something.

 

[Luckysingh]

that's a very big 'not' you have there, and its not just a personal 'not' its a 'not' that is being preached...

There ain't no preaching dude.
I said the guru's message was not to confirm the possibility of any reincarnation or not. BUT to reinforce the reminder that we have this One life to make the difference via some efforts o our behalf.

I was not aware of any lower planes or stages, neither was I aware that I had unmerged at some point.

You think you are merged then, I assume ?
Doesn't that mean you are jivan mukht ??

as my sis stated, how can you possibly know?

so this is not just your opinion, this is fact!

We are talking about jivan mukht here and how the other descriptions of other documented mukti fit around it- there is info on the appropriate mukti threads. I would suggest a little read and try understand who says what and why they say it.

well,I would say you have some way to go before you can claim to have conquered ego......

I've discussed the EGO earlier and I have made it clear that it is a lifetime goal because it is about us being fed by the thieves. We don't hide away from the thieves, but we should try by placing our mind in the 'present' at all times ?
For the moments you have no single thoughts, then do you have Ego ?
What are your thoughts ?
Are they always the future or past or do you have thoughts in the absolute present time ?

the esoteric layers of Sikhim hmmmmm

well pardon me, but I would do anything to get AWAY from the esoteric layers, in fact these layers stand for everything against Sikhism

If there are no esoteric layers in sikhi, then what do metaphors explain ?
Don't you think that gurbani has slightly varying or different messages for each one of us depending at what stage we are at.
Or is it the simple and straight ''Thou shall'' and ''Thou shall not''
I thought that any ART got appreciated for it's esoteric depth, and the poetry in gurbani helps to deliver this message.
I have no idea what 'esoteric depth' means to you, if anything !

actually I am being naïve, you probably already have one

well good luck with your secret squirrel society

Shouldn't I be in the later Super Secret squirrels instead ?

btw.. I am not going to proceed in any further 'school playground' antics of ''my dad is tougher than yours'' or ''mine is the biggest because .......''

sat sri akal

 

[Ishna]

You think you are merged then, I assume ?
Doesn't that mean you are jivan mukht ??

I don't know about Harry ji, but for me, yes, we are already "merged", because to be otherwise would be to admit duality, wouldn't it? The problem is the veil of haumai which prevents us from perceiving the fact of our "merged-ness".

I said the guru's message was not to confirm the possibility of any reincarnation or not.

I think the confusion came up, for myself anyway, when Brother Onam Ji said this:

'Occam's Razor': Maybe the Guru is simply teaching reincarnation.

and then you said this:

Reincarnation in sikhi = repeated cycles of birth and death,the 84 lak joons.
So, if you don't make the permanent union with waheguru after death, then you shall be reborn.

Are you trying to say that, from your understanding, Sikhi teaches reincarnation and a system of 84 lakh joons, but that we shouldn't worry about it? Is this what you're trying to get at? It's confusing for me because you are insisting IN BIG LETTERS that there is an esoteric system of karma, reincarnation, etc which seems very well thought out for something we shouldn't be thinking about. :-/

If there are no esoteric layers in sikhi, then what do metaphors explain ?

The metaphors explain concepts which are hard to explain in any other language. I think that's what Sherdil was trying to get at with his quoted paurhi from Japji Sahib, that to describe it is as hard as steel.

Many thanks...

 

[Luckysingh]

I don't know about Harry ji, but for me, yes, we are already "merged", because to be otherwise would be to admit duality, wouldn't it? The problem is the veil of haumai which prevents us from perceiving the fact of our "merged-ness".

For me, I don't feel that living and participating in creation means you are merged. The countless mentions in gurbani tell me that when you have realized, is when you merge.
When you completely kill the ego and conquer the modes of maya with your mind , then you can ''experience'', the merging as jivan mukht.
But the complete jyot into jyot is not here in the world of duality, from my understanding.
This is, as i said...My understanding, and I'm afraid I do stand very strongly with it.
Theres no stopping me !
I may find it difficult to express and explain in words.
But then again, how can I explain my simran in words and the feelings of merged-ness that I can feel when Nirgun(without form).
Then what the hell am I merging with when doing simran when I kill all my thoughts and mind activity ??

Try it !

Are you trying to say that, from your understanding, Sikhi teaches reincarnation and a system of 84 lakh joons, but that we shouldn't worry about it? Is this what you're trying to get at? It's confusing for me because you are insisting IN BIG LETTERS that there is an esoteric system of karma, reincarnation, etc which seems very well thought out for something we shouldn't be thinking about.

Yes, i am saying that ''do you want stay in the cycle if you believe it?'' Believing and understanding is not the same as worshiping.
It was worshiping reincarnation. the unknown that the vedic pandits preached. Worship and bathe at x amount of shrines if you want to be something better in next life.....blah.......
THIS IS NOT what I or the majority of other sikhs do or believe.
Believing that there may be a cycle of birth/deaths and staying stuck in duality does not make me blind worship or change the way i conduct myself.
Nether does it help skip the line or queue to God in any way.

So, i can't undertstand why you are finding it contradicting ?

The metaphors explain concepts which are hard to explain in any other language. I think that's what Sherdil was trying to get at with his quoted paurhi from Japji Sahib, that to describe it is as hard as steel.

Many thanks...

My point was that I didn't associate that with reincarnation in any way. Maybe I will if I look deeper ?
It's always been about the 5 khands, which are argued as planes/realms of actual existence or states of spiritual consciousness in the mind.
But they can even be both !
You will only begin to realise the truth of what they are once you start realising God and start the merging !!


Satnam Waheguru
PS-there is saas saas as in simro gobind, and saas graas also !