Do You Believe In Reincarnation Or Transmigration?
- Thread starter Ishna
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- Jan 19, 2014
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Hey, I'm sorry about the fire in your apartment. I'm not trying to convert you. We're just having a discussion on Dharma, like people used to do in India.
So you are looking at it like an equation. I'm not sure if you are familiar with chemistry....but if product is more than reactants, then the reaction will proceed towards the reactants side, until the concentrations of both reach an equilibrium. That sounds like what you are saying.
I will disagree that all karma cannot be resolved in one lifetime. Say a murderer decided to follow a spiritual path. Can he not attain jivan mukhti? People do not find the path if it is not pre-ordained. Their destiny has been written long ago.
We have less control over it than we think. It is ego that makes the atman think of itself as separate from the supreme Brahman. In reality, we are the same and our actions are one in the same. This is why our actions cannot go against Hukam.
My two cents
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Here is the conundrum:
We reap what we sow, but we cannot act against God's will.
We see the universe as God's creation, and God wills the movement of the heavens. Are we not also part of this universe? Does He not also will our movements?
In the Matrix, Neo meets the Architect who explains to him that "choice" was built into the Matrix to allow the people to feel like they had some control. In actuality, the choices they made were the ones they were pre-ordained to make.
We reap what we sow, but we cannot act against God's will.
We see the universe as God's creation, and God wills the movement of the heavens. Are we not also part of this universe? Does He not also will our movements?
In the Matrix, Neo meets the Architect who explains to him that "choice" was built into the Matrix to allow the people to feel like they had some control. In actuality, the choices they made were the ones they were pre-ordained to make.
- Jan 31, 2011
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The problem here is that Sikhism has about as much in common with Hinduism, as a journey to London has with a journey to Manchester, yes they involve roads, cars, traffic, but the destinations are completely different. You want to go to Manchester, I want to go to London, yes we can compare driving styles, cars, roads, but it is pointless me ringing you up about jams on the A12 as it is you telling me the M6 is blocked.
I have two puppies, Rory and Bran, well they are nearly two now, but still puppies to me, last year, wife came down to find Brans jaw twisted round Rorys collar, Rory was blue and Brans jaw was covered in blood, after much struggle, Rory flopped on the floor, dead. My wife did not 'almost welcome' this, nor did she accept it as karma, she grabbed Rory and pounded his heart and gave mouth to mouth until he came back, I arrived just as he was sitting up.
That I could see this as a bit of bad karma out of the way is alien to me, its my dog, my baby, what sort of God punishes a woman by making her baby ill, its almost pythonesque, so your baby is ill, but its ok, you got rid of some bad karma, and it definitely had nothing to do with the bottle wine you drank ever day during pregnancy, nor the 20 cigs daily. Nope its definitely something you did a few lifetimes ago!
Life is hard, complicated, its hard doing the right thing, you get to see every day whether you made the right decisions yesterday, you get to see a pattern, the more truth you live by, the better things get, the thought that some celestial being is playing with me, punishing me, burning my flat down, has no place in Sikhism, in my view.
I go to London every week, its closer than Manchester, but I hope you enjoy Manchester
I think Hukam and Karma are two very different concepts. (Im also not sure if I believe in Karma/reincarnation)
Heres a question for you then, if we dont have a choice/were per-ordanined to make the choices we do... then why does it really matter about Karma?
Things will happen weather you act 'good' or not. There are plenty of people who act 'good' their whole lives and still have horrible things happen to them, just like examples before about innocents placed in bad situations ....
Its all about your own perception, were limited we have no idea what good/bad etc is.. IMO everyone has challenges some we just see better than others. (no karma involved, Sukhmani Sahib Says: Jo Jo hoay soi sukh manai)
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That's the logical conclusion then isn't it?
Although, we can't write off karma. It is mentioned over and over in GGS.
I think the next step is to determine how a Sikh attains good karma. It's not the same as what Hindus and Buddhists believe. Reincarnation or not, the point is still valid for this life.
Hukam razai chalna, Nanak likhaya naal.
My take is that we can think against Hukam, but we can't act against Hukam. As long as our thinking isn't aligned with Hukam, we suffer.
If we are one with Hukam, then we are one with God.
@angrisha...forgot to quote
Although, we can't write off karma. It is mentioned over and over in GGS.
I think the next step is to determine how a Sikh attains good karma. It's not the same as what Hindus and Buddhists believe. Reincarnation or not, the point is still valid for this life.
Hukam razai chalna, Nanak likhaya naal.
My take is that we can think against Hukam, but we can't act against Hukam. As long as our thinking isn't aligned with Hukam, we suffer.
If we are one with Hukam, then we are one with God.
@angrisha...forgot to quote
- Jan 31, 2011
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as are many Hindu Gods, spirits, ghosts, concepts of reincarnation, lust etc etc
many many things are mentioned over and over in the SGGS...
Gurbani is poetry. And as is the case with all poetry, what it means is hidden inside what it says.
That is one reason that Sikh Fundamentalism/Literalism is nonsensical.
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I think it has been framed in a new context.
A thief may find himself in prison. It's his own actions that put him there.
But then we can't act against Hukam. So it was his destiny to end up in prison.
I think coming to terms with your current predicament brings peace, and learning from past actions then prevents you from making those same mistakes again.
As mortals bound by kal (time) we can only move forward.
As Angresh ji quoted: Jo jo hoay, soi sukh maneh
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Here is a thought:
We are God.
Gurbani says that the creator exists within creation. What separates us from inanimate objects is our consciousness.
What is consciousness and where does it come from? The same place where everything else comes from.
We are a part of the Universe, which means that the Universe is aware of itself. It is thinking about itself. It doesn't do anything that it doesn't want, and nothing happens that wasn't meant to happen.
Existence doesn't end when we die. The Universe continues on. So there is no death, and there is no birth. Gurbani says that Akal is not subject to life and death.
Reincarnation is then a metaphor for levels of self-awareness. Out of all living things, humans are the only ones that are aware of their mortality. The 8.4 lakh junoons are experienced in this life, as progressively higher levels of awareness, until we are liberated.
Liberation from fear, hatred, envy, greed, anger, and all other things that prevent us from attaining peace.
We are God.
Gurbani says that the creator exists within creation. What separates us from inanimate objects is our consciousness.
What is consciousness and where does it come from? The same place where everything else comes from.
We are a part of the Universe, which means that the Universe is aware of itself. It is thinking about itself. It doesn't do anything that it doesn't want, and nothing happens that wasn't meant to happen.
Existence doesn't end when we die. The Universe continues on. So there is no death, and there is no birth. Gurbani says that Akal is not subject to life and death.
Reincarnation is then a metaphor for levels of self-awareness. Out of all living things, humans are the only ones that are aware of their mortality. The 8.4 lakh junoons are experienced in this life, as progressively higher levels of awareness, until we are liberated.
Liberation from fear, hatred, envy, greed, anger, and all other things that prevent us from attaining peace.
There a number of things written which are open for interpretation .
Firstly, I don't feellike destiny and hukam should be seen as the same thing. Destiny implies some thing we are going to achieve if we act in a certain way, if we don't it's not fully set in stone that we will reach it (hence why is something to be fulfilled)
Hukam, is always present and it's not a fate based concept. Hukam is something we surrender our minds to, or our ego (forgive my ignorance, I'm still very much learning). In my mind, if you can live with hukam in every moment karma/destiny doent really matter.
Firstly, I don't feellike destiny and hukam should be seen as the same thing. Destiny implies some thing we are going to achieve if we act in a certain way, if we don't it's not fully set in stone that we will reach it (hence why is something to be fulfilled)
Hukam, is always present and it's not a fate based concept. Hukam is something we surrender our minds to, or our ego (forgive my ignorance, I'm still very much learning). In my mind, if you can live with hukam in every moment karma/destiny doent really matter.
Destiny can be changed.
Hukam is ALL his.
If destiny couldn't be changed, the what would be the point of sikhi ?
Destiny is only pre-ordained according to your current state of inner awareness and consciousness. Basically, if you continue going the path and with state of mind you are at at any given time, then destiny dictates UNDER the command of Hukam.
Probably wondering, how do you change it ??
By raising your consciousness.
This is only done if you make the effort to learn about your soul/consciousness.
This is what a TRUE SIKH is supposed to be a learner about.
To learn how to realize God by climbing up the spiritual ladder. This ladder has rungs which are all out of the boundaries from Kaal.
Only AKAAL can put his hand down to help and guide you up. But you have to make that effort to start learning and climbing.
There is ONLY ONE method, I know...........NAAM SIMRAN !
Only Naam simran/meditation can take your inner 'antar ghath' to be outside the boundaries or influences of maya and thoughts.
Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA.
Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
BUT,BUT........BUT...
Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder !
WHY ??
Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA.
It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.
When you achieve the meditative state outside 3 gunas, which will be without any thoughts, then there is only You and GOD. Nothing else.
In fact, you should realize there is ONLY HIM
This is the Goal.
This is the merging.
This is what you have to work at to maintain, so that it becomes a continuous state of sehaj.
Then, you reach territory of gurmukh and jivan mukht.
Then you pass all the planes/realms of mind and reach the True abode of Sachkhand.
As for REINCARNATION and TRANSMIGRATION.
Gurbani doesn't tell us that it doesn't exist.
It tells us that ONCE, you reach that ultimate state of being with the TRUE SAT in sackhand status, then for you there will be NO reincarnation, No karma, No past negative affects on present....
But for all the others mingling on the lower levels and states of consciousness, they will continue to revolve in the circles of birth/death, karma, destiny, free will-playground (recess) time......and repeat.....repeat......
Hukam is ALL his.
If destiny couldn't be changed, the what would be the point of sikhi ?
Destiny is only pre-ordained according to your current state of inner awareness and consciousness. Basically, if you continue going the path and with state of mind you are at at any given time, then destiny dictates UNDER the command of Hukam.
Probably wondering, how do you change it ??
By raising your consciousness.
This is only done if you make the effort to learn about your soul/consciousness.
This is what a TRUE SIKH is supposed to be a learner about.
To learn how to realize God by climbing up the spiritual ladder. This ladder has rungs which are all out of the boundaries from Kaal.
Only AKAAL can put his hand down to help and guide you up. But you have to make that effort to start learning and climbing.
There is ONLY ONE method, I know...........NAAM SIMRAN !
Only Naam simran/meditation can take your inner 'antar ghath' to be outside the boundaries or influences of maya and thoughts.
Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA.
Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
BUT,BUT........BUT...
Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder !
WHY ??
Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA.
It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.
When you achieve the meditative state outside 3 gunas, which will be without any thoughts, then there is only You and GOD. Nothing else.
In fact, you should realize there is ONLY HIM
This is the Goal.
This is the merging.
This is what you have to work at to maintain, so that it becomes a continuous state of sehaj.
Then, you reach territory of gurmukh and jivan mukht.
Then you pass all the planes/realms of mind and reach the True abode of Sachkhand.
As for REINCARNATION and TRANSMIGRATION.
Gurbani doesn't tell us that it doesn't exist.
It tells us that ONCE, you reach that ultimate state of being with the TRUE SAT in sackhand status, then for you there will be NO reincarnation, No karma, No past negative affects on present....
But for all the others mingling on the lower levels and states of consciousness, they will continue to revolve in the circles of birth/death, karma, destiny, free will-playground (recess) time......and repeat.....repeat......
- Jan 19, 2014
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I thought destiny cannot be changed.
Googled definition:
1.
the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.
"she was unable to control her own destiny"
the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate.
"he believes in destiny"
synonyms: future, fate, fortune, doom; More
In gurbani, "lekha" literally means "what is written". It takes on the meaning of destiny.
This alludes to the idea that destiny cannot be changed, just like you cannot change what has already been written.
Googled definition:
1.
the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.
"she was unable to control her own destiny"
the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate.
"he believes in destiny"
synonyms: future, fate, fortune, doom; More
In gurbani, "lekha" literally means "what is written". It takes on the meaning of destiny.
This alludes to the idea that destiny cannot be changed, just like you cannot change what has already been written.
- Jan 19, 2014
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This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji on Pannaa 27:
jis hee kee sirakaar hai this hee kaa sabh koe ||
Everyone belongs to the One who rules the Universe.
guramukh kaar kamaavanee sach ghatt paragatt hoe ||
The Gurmukh practices good deeds, and the truth is revealed in the heart.
a(n)thar jis kai sach vasai sachae sachee soe ||
True is the reputation of the true, within whom truth abides.
sach milae sae n vishhurrehi thin nij ghar vaasaa hoe ||1||
Those who meet the True Lord are not separated again; they come to dwell in the home of the self deep within. ||1||
maerae raam mai har bin avar n koe ||
O my Lord! Without the Lord, I have no other at all.
sathagur sach prabh niramalaa sabadh milaavaa hoe ||1|| rehaao ||
The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||
sabadh milai so mil rehai jis no aapae leae milaae ||
One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.
dhoojai bhaae ko naa milai fir fir aavai jaae ||
No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.
sabh mehi eik varathadhaa eaeko rehiaa samaae ||
The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.
jis no aap dhaeiaal hoe so guramukh naam samaae ||2||
That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||
parr parr pa(n)ddith jothakee vaadh karehi beechaar ||
After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.
math budhh bhavee n bujhee a(n)thar lobh vikaar ||
Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.
lakh chouraaseeh bharamadhae bhram bhram hoe khuaar ||
Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.
poorab likhiaa kamaavanaa koe n maettanehaar ||3||
They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||
sathagur kee saevaa gaakharree sir dheejai aap gavaae ||
It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.
sabadh milehi thaa har milai saevaa pavai sabh thhaae ||
Realizing the Shabad, one meets with the Lord, and all one's service is accepted.
paaras parasiai paaras hoe jothee joth samaae ||
By personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.
jin ko poorab likhiaa thin sathagur miliaa aae ||4||
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||
man bhukhaa bhukhaa math karehi math thoo karehi pookaar ||
O mind, don't cry out that you are hungry, always hungry; stop complaining.
lakh chouraaseeh jin siree sabhasai dhaee adhhaar ||
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.
nirabho sadhaa dhaeiaal hai sabhanaa karadhaa saar ||
The Fearless Lord is forever Merciful; He takes care of all.
naanak guramukh bujheeai paaeeai mokh dhuaar ||5||3||36||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands, and finds the Door of Liberation. ||5||3||36||
jis hee kee sirakaar hai this hee kaa sabh koe ||
Everyone belongs to the One who rules the Universe.
guramukh kaar kamaavanee sach ghatt paragatt hoe ||
The Gurmukh practices good deeds, and the truth is revealed in the heart.
a(n)thar jis kai sach vasai sachae sachee soe ||
True is the reputation of the true, within whom truth abides.
sach milae sae n vishhurrehi thin nij ghar vaasaa hoe ||1||
Those who meet the True Lord are not separated again; they come to dwell in the home of the self deep within. ||1||
maerae raam mai har bin avar n koe ||
O my Lord! Without the Lord, I have no other at all.
sathagur sach prabh niramalaa sabadh milaavaa hoe ||1|| rehaao ||
The True Guru leads us to meet the Immaculate True God through the Word of His Shabad. ||1||Pause||
sabadh milai so mil rehai jis no aapae leae milaae ||
One whom the Lord merges into Himself is merged in the Shabad, and remains so merged.
dhoojai bhaae ko naa milai fir fir aavai jaae ||
No one merges with Him through the love of duality; over and over again, they come and go in reincarnation.
sabh mehi eik varathadhaa eaeko rehiaa samaae ||
The One Lord permeates all. The One Lord is pervading everywhere.
jis no aap dhaeiaal hoe so guramukh naam samaae ||2||
That Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord shows His Kindness, is absorbed in the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||2||
parr parr pa(n)ddith jothakee vaadh karehi beechaar ||
After all their reading, the Pandits, the religious scholars, and the astrologers argue and debate.
math budhh bhavee n bujhee a(n)thar lobh vikaar ||
Their intellect and understanding are perverted; they just don't understand. They are filled with greed and corruption.
lakh chouraaseeh bharamadhae bhram bhram hoe khuaar ||
Through 8.4 million incarnations they wander lost and confused; through all their wandering and roaming, they are ruined.
poorab likhiaa kamaavanaa koe n maettanehaar ||3||
They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||
sathagur kee saevaa gaakharree sir dheejai aap gavaae ||
It is very difficult to serve the True Guru. Surrender your head; give up your selfishness.
sabadh milehi thaa har milai saevaa pavai sabh thhaae ||
Realizing the Shabad, one meets with the Lord, and all one's service is accepted.
paaras parasiai paaras hoe jothee joth samaae ||
By personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.
jin ko poorab likhiaa thin sathagur miliaa aae ||4||
Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||
man bhukhaa bhukhaa math karehi math thoo karehi pookaar ||
O mind, don't cry out that you are hungry, always hungry; stop complaining.
lakh chouraaseeh jin siree sabhasai dhaee adhhaar ||
The One who created the 8.4 million species of beings gives sustenance to all.
nirabho sadhaa dhaeiaal hai sabhanaa karadhaa saar ||
The Fearless Lord is forever Merciful; He takes care of all.
naanak guramukh bujheeai paaeeai mokh dhuaar ||5||3||36||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh understands, and finds the Door of Liberation. ||5||3||36||
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Karma is a means of fulfilling one's destiny. Action and reaction. It's a means to an end.
The thief stole something, so he ended up in prison. He fulfilled his destiny of ending up in prison by stealing.
Hukam is the "One" deciding your destiny. Gurbani says that by Hukam, some are destined to find the path, while others keep wandering.
Side note: "The path" doesn't mean Sikhi. It's truthful living. Sikhi is just a study of the truth. You can still believe in something else, or be an atheist, and still live truthfully. That's why our GGS contains writing from people of different denominations.
"Truth is high. Higher still is truthful living."
The thief stole something, so he ended up in prison. He fulfilled his destiny of ending up in prison by stealing.
Hukam is the "One" deciding your destiny. Gurbani says that by Hukam, some are destined to find the path, while others keep wandering.
Side note: "The path" doesn't mean Sikhi. It's truthful living. Sikhi is just a study of the truth. You can still believe in something else, or be an atheist, and still live truthfully. That's why our GGS contains writing from people of different denominations.
"Truth is high. Higher still is truthful living."
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"Nanak hukmai jai bujhey, ta haumai kahe nah koi"
If you understand Hukam, you will never say haumai. Haumai has been erroneously translated to mean ego.
Literally, haumai is a combination of Hum Hai, which means "I am".
Gurbani is saying there is no "I". You are a part of the universe, just like the planets and the stars. When you act and think, it is the universe that is acting and thinking. The "One" who controls the planets and stars also controls you.
"Gaaveh ko taan, hoveh kise taan". = Some sing of His power, but who really has the power to sing of His power?
You cannot sing if He does not want you to sing. The stars don't die if He has not made it their destiny to die.
If you understand Hukam, you will never say haumai. Haumai has been erroneously translated to mean ego.
Literally, haumai is a combination of Hum Hai, which means "I am".
Gurbani is saying there is no "I". You are a part of the universe, just like the planets and the stars. When you act and think, it is the universe that is acting and thinking. The "One" who controls the planets and stars also controls you.
"Gaaveh ko taan, hoveh kise taan". = Some sing of His power, but who really has the power to sing of His power?
You cannot sing if He does not want you to sing. The stars don't die if He has not made it their destiny to die.
:interestedkudi: Just mentioned repeatedly to help fill up the pages and make a nice bulky volume ??
Looking at the whole issue on the surface and outer layers !
This is how anyone has to first start off, but slowly they should get in deeper and start discovering the esoteric inner layers.
Then you may hopefully realise that EACH mention is there for it's own significance and reason.
Haumai is actually alot more than EGO.
You are right that it gets erroneously translated as meaning just EGO.
EGO is just a part of Haumai.
Haumai is more than just self-pride, me..me...me...me.., I am...I did...I do...I..I..I...I.....
Killing Haumai is about TOTAL disassociation from self, whilst still breathing the breaths that are controlled by his HUKAM.
Haumai killing is not just about being humble and not putting yourself at the forefront, it is about totally killing your thoughts/action/maya needs..
(Read my earlier post to try see where I am coming from!)
In gurbani it mentions DYING IN THE SHABAD
Only at this time is Your Haumai totally killed.
This is something that one has to do again and again.
Kabirji mentions in places that ''I have to keep dying again and again''
''Can't i just die the once''
"" aisee marney jo marey, bahur na marna hoi''
yes, he is not talking about reincarnation this time (atheists on here will be pleased for once !lol)
But here, he talking about the 'Dying in the shabad'' and '' the dying whilst alive''
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On the topic of Haumai:
"I" am not speaking to "you". This discussion we are having is the Universe coming to terms with itself.
The conversation has evolved from the beginning of this thread until now. Everyone has contributed their own part to bring the discussion to where it is now.
"We" collectively are the Universe trying to discern the truth.
"I" am not speaking to "you". This discussion we are having is the Universe coming to terms with itself.
The conversation has evolved from the beginning of this thread until now. Everyone has contributed their own part to bring the discussion to where it is now.
"We" collectively are the Universe trying to discern the truth.
- Jul 11, 2012
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Waheguru,
I sometimes sense that we approach Sikhi with a certain position (for instance that Sikhi does not teach reincarnation), and then go through intellectual gymnastics to explain away the many references in the Guru to, for instance, reincarnation.
Each of the many passages mentioning reincarnation is nimbly explained away as 'addressing Hindus', 'meant figuratively', 'allegorical', 'talking to people in the language they'll understand', etc, etc.
'Occam's Razor': Maybe the Guru is simply teaching reincarnation. (I feel hackles rising all over the Network)
I sometimes sense that we approach Sikhi with a certain position (for instance that Sikhi does not teach reincarnation), and then go through intellectual gymnastics to explain away the many references in the Guru to, for instance, reincarnation.
Each of the many passages mentioning reincarnation is nimbly explained away as 'addressing Hindus', 'meant figuratively', 'allegorical', 'talking to people in the language they'll understand', etc, etc.
'Occam's Razor': Maybe the Guru is simply teaching reincarnation. (I feel hackles rising all over the Network)
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