Do You Believe In Reincarnation Or Transmigration?

[Ishna]

Brother Onam Ji

Thank you for your focus on reincarnation.

Reincarnation, karma and caste are all elements of the same package. I'm not sure how reincarnation would work on its own - to what end and for what purpose.

From your point of view, if you don't mind me asking; how is the reincarnation taught by Guru Ji different to the reincarnation taught within Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism)?

Perhaps one of the traps some Sikhs fall into is trying to reduce the Sikh concept of reincarnation into the Hindu one, when in fact Guru Nanak Sahib Ji tended not to take concepts already existing in other traditions at the time and glue them together into some kind of new religion, like taking the trunk from the Vedic elephant and the spots from the Islamic leopard and calling the resulting animal an elephanopard; instead he masterfully perceived the Truth, compared it to the existing traditions, and made distinctly new statements, limited in some areas by the existing terminology (when he wasn't creating his own words, like Ik Onkar).

So, assuming for the time being that Sikhism does in fact teach reincarnation, what exactly does that look like, per Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

 

[Luckysingh]

Reincarnation, karma and caste are all elements of the same package. I'm not sure how reincarnation would work on its own - to what end and for what purpose.

Why not ? and How not ?

From your point of view, if you don't mind me asking; how is the reincarnation taught by Guru Ji different to the reincarnation taught within Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism)?

I don't think we have to give a hoots, to what hinduism reinacarnation order/specifics are.
It's no pre-requisite for gurbani to have to learn how many births in different castes a chuurha(gutter worker/cleaner) has to take before having birth as a jatt and how many good deeds he has to do accordingly.

Perhaps one of the traps some Sikhs fall into is trying to reduce the Sikh concept of reincarnation into the Hindu one, when in fact Guru Nanak Sahib Ji tended not to take concepts already existing in other traditions at the time and glue them together into some kind of new religion,

He never went out to make a new better religion using little bits that seemed glossed in truth from other faiths.
Did he deny that devi and devtas were like angels ?
No, he tried to make the worshiper's learn that they were not worshiping the Higher truth.
Because, they were simply getting stuck with idols/rituals ''as the be all and end all.''
He tried to make them learn that it was the ONE satguru that was the creator of the devi, devta, angels..etc..


Maybe it's pointless discussing this, since some of you don't believe in soul or conscious .
I mean, think about it, if there is a GOD part or entity within you, then does it just die ?
What is Akaal and timeless then ?
Is the temple that Jesus spoke about and the ghar that gurbani talks about within you or just your skin, bones and flesh ?
Is the Mind the same thing as the Brain ?

 

[Luckysingh]

Waheguru,
I sometimes sense that we approach Sikhi with a certain position (for instance that Sikhi does not teach reincarnation), and then go through intellectual gymnastics to explain away the many references in the Guru to, for instance, reincarnation.
Each of the many passages mentioning reincarnation is nimbly explained away as 'addressing Hindus', 'meant figuratively', 'allegorical', 'talking to people in the language they'll understand', etc, etc.
'Occam's Razor': Maybe the Guru is simply teaching reincarnation. (I feel hackles rising all over the Network)

A beautifully explained post Onamji :icecreammunda:
(clear and concise)

 

[Ishna]

I think you misunderstood my sincere question, Lucky Ji.

Is there an order to reincarnation in Sikhi? Do your actions influence your karma which influence your next birth? Do you have to be reincarnated into a particular life-form before you can be liberated?

What about when Guru Arjun Sahib says not to delay, that this is our opportunity to meet God? Maybe we will have other opportunities?

Some Sikhs at the Gurdwara I go to aren't fussed about seeking kande di pahul because they say they are not ready for it in this life and hopefully they will have better luck in their next life as long as they try to be good people in this one. What are your thoughts about that?

 

[angrisha]

I will probably to read more into bani, and im sure my opinions are changing all the time.

I dont think bani ever says to wait till your next life, on the contrary we have no idea even if there is a next life what that will entail. So the message ive always taken away is that, you only have this life and even that is often unpredictable enough. You only every really have this moment, even the next moment is a mystery.
Saying your going to put things in to the next life or wait for then seems an awful lot like gambiling....
Guruji says in Ananad Sahib ji:

ਜੀਅਹੁ ਮੈਲੇ ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ॥
जीअहु मैले बाहरहु निरमल ॥
Jī▫ahu maile bāhrahu nirmal.
Inwardly polluted, and outwardly pure.

ਬਾਹਰਹੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜੀਅਹੁ ਤ ਮੈਲੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥
]बाहरहु निरमल जीअहु त मैले तिनी जनमु जूऐ हारिआ ॥
Bāhrahu nirmal jī▫ahu ṯa maile ṯinī janam jū▫ai hāri▫ā.
Those who are outwardly pure and yet polluted within, lose their lives in the gamble.

ਏਹ ਤਿਸਨਾ ਵਡਾ ਰੋਗੁ ਲਗਾ ਮਰਣੁ ਮਨਹੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ॥
एह तिसना वडा रोगु लगा मरणु मनहु विसारिआ ॥
Ėh ṯisnā vadā rog lagā maraṇ manhu visāri▫ā.
They contract this terrible disease of desire, and in their minds, they forget about dying.

ਵੇਦਾ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਤਮੁ ਸੋ ਸੁਣਹਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਬੇਤਾਲਿਆ ॥
वेदा महि नामु उतमु सो सुणहि नाही फिरहि जिउ बेतालिआ ॥
veḏā mėh nām uṯam so suṇėh nāhī firėh ji▫o beṯāli▫ā.
In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਨ ਸਚੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਕੂੜੇ ਲਾਗੇ ਤਿਨੀ ਜਨਮੁ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥੧੯॥
कहै नानकु जिन सचु तजिआ कूड़े लागे तिनी जनमु जूऐ हारिआ ॥१९॥
Kahai Nānak jin sacẖ ṯaji▫ā kūṛe lāge ṯinī janam jū▫ai hāri▫ā. ||19||
Says Nanak, those who forsake Truth and cling to falsehood, lose their lives in the gamble. ||19||

The other point is, im not sure if Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is speaking of literal karma/reincarnation... but more so how they apply to the person on a step by step level. Karma for example involves actual doing, i.e. physically or mental.... to be simpler it does after our day to day lives, so thus the types of actions you take basically are what you attract back to you. I.e. If I wake up grumpy, and then am grumpy to the poor lady giving me coffee, if she then becomes grumpy towards.....its all your own actions casuing these changes.... Im not talking about past life, only current life actions.

Secondly, reincarnation can be seen on a microscopic scale of how we reincarnate many times in our lives and a fairly frequent pace. As we grow and change and learn we are never exactly the same at one moment to the next... Our concept of self and humai are constantly in flux.... The longer you take to sort out some of the lessons which bring you pain and hair ships, the more 'cycles"you have to go through....

Some concepts defiantly get clouded with Buddhist or hindu teachings..... this is why self learning i so important

 

[Luckysingh]

Reincarnation in sikhi = repeated cycles of birth and death,the 84 lak joons.
So, if you don't make the permanent union with waheguru after death, then you shall be reborn.
Reincarnation (translated) by hindu masses= Working your way up the caste/ status ladder.
so, you can keep doing satogun good deeds under the impression that you will come back with a higher worldly status.

No Guru says the vedas are wrong. If so, please show me ?
It's the misinterpretations and translations that are wrong.
It's the ideas that only the pandits can understand and get the knowledge.
It's about them having the power because you need them as the guides is what they make the masses think.
Same thing goes for other faiths that insist churches/temples and shrines have to be built, so that they can control the power.


Nothing wrong with rituals either, but problems are when they become BLIND rituals.
RITUALS are what define a dharm or religion.
Show me a religion without any rituals ?

Nothing I know is wrong with spoken words of Jesus, know nothing wrong about the vedas ...BUT, it's the misinterpretations and messages given by churches and religious authorities that lead people to dead ends.

There is plenty of gurmat in the bibles and other scriptures, but you have to find it in the contexts to apply it and recognize it.

ALL religions talk about the INNER self using metaphors and parables. But semitics love to take all the stories as literal, whereas in sikhi we have the opposite problem of where we have the straight messages and instructions and the crazies want to convert them back into metaphors instead !
You don't gyan going backwards !

 

[Ishna]

Thanks for your input.

Reincarnation (translated) by hindu masses= Working your way up the caste/ status ladder.
so, you can keep doing satogun good deeds under the impression that you will come back with a higher worldly status.

Is the ultimate goal in Hinduism the same as in Sikhi, where you keep doing good deeds until you're reincarnated to the point where, when you die, you merge with Waheguru? The only difference being that Sikhs reincarnate all over the place randomly (horizontally) and they don't go up or down a ladder of status (vertical reincarnation)? Or do Sikhs reincarnate into more comfortable lives if they do good deeds? Or do they reincarnate into more spiritual people?

Are the answers to these questions in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

Reincarnation in sikhi = repeated cycles of birth and death,the 84 lak joons.
So, if you don't make the permanent union with waheguru after death, then you shall be reborn.

Where does jeevn mukht (liberated while alive) fit into this model?

I thought Sikhi was about avoiding complicated 'mental gymnastics' and having a simple, uncomplicated, logical acceptance of life as it is and using that as motivation to be a good person in society with truth, contentment and contemplation, in chardi kala.

 

[Sherdil]

Thanks for your input.



Is the ultimate goal in Hinduism the same as in Sikhi, where you keep doing good deeds until you're reincarnated to the point where, when you die, you merge with Waheguru? The only difference being that Sikhs reincarnate all over the place randomly (horizontally) and they don't go up or down a ladder of status (vertical reincarnation)? Or do Sikhs reincarnate into more comfortable lives if they do good deeds? Or do they reincarnate into more spiritual people?

Are the answers to these questions in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?



Where does jeevn mukht (liberated while alive) fit into this model?

I thought Sikhi was about avoiding complicated 'mental gymnastics' and having a simple, uncomplicated, logical acceptance of life as it is and using that as motivation to be a good person in society with truth, contentment and contemplation, in chardi kala.

Here is a way to avoid "mental gymnastics".

Stop worrying about past lives and future lives. Nobody knows what they were or what they will be. Not even gurbani or the Hindu scriptures can tell you this.

Concentrate on making the most of the life you have right now.

 

[Taranjeet singh]

I think simple proposition is made complicated on account of difference in the interpretation of 'Tuks'/shabads related to Karmas and reincarnation. I am guided by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in this regard.
IMHO One should do the interpretation oneself to arrive at the subjective conclusion as the opinions do vary. I J singh is also of the belief that there is no reincarnation. Many senior members on the forum also believe the same way. However , the best way is to interpret Gurbani for oneself.

 

[chazSingh]

I think all of us are as old as this universe is! All of us are our own ancestors, and our descendants are again us only!

Just my random thoughts!

I like this

our combined consciousness...our combined divine spark animates and creates the whole of existence...all is God...all is He...

I personally think re-incarnation exists and is governed by our unfulfilled desires, our attachments, our actions etc etc..but we shouldn't waste our time thinking about it...instead make the most of the 'Now' and connect to Waheguru 'Now' for the present is the only reality that matters.

 

[chazSingh]

I think simple proposition is made complicated on account of difference in the interpretation of 'Tuks'/shabads related to Karmas and reincarnation. I am guided by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in this regard.
IMHO One should do the interpretation oneself to arrive at the subjective conclusion as the opinions do vary. I J singh is also of the belief that there is no reincarnation. Many senior members on the forum also believe the same way. However , the best way is to interpret Gurbani for oneself.

I wholeheartedly Agree,

Whilst Forums are a great place to discuss and have Sangat, it is also a place where doubts can manifest and implant themselves within us....

Read Gurbani, Contemplate Gurbani, pray for Guru Ji to reveal the Truth using whatever means God so wishes...Clarity will eventually come through patience and perseverance and ultimately Grace

God Bless Ji

 

[Luckysingh]

Thanks for your input.

Is the ultimate goal in Hinduism the same as in Sikhi, where you keep doing good deeds until you're reincarnated to the point where, when you die, you merge with Waheguru? The only difference being that Sikhs reincarnate all over the place randomly (horizontally) and they don't go up or down a ladder of status (vertical reincarnation)? Or do Sikhs reincarnate into more comfortable lives if they do good deeds? Or do they reincarnate into more spiritual people?

Other members have answered the whole thing quite well above.
Guru's message is NOT that there is no reincarnation or karma,..but you have this ONE chance to make the difference regardless of if it exists.
Why be worrying about it, when you can BYPASS all of these lower planes/stages and merge straight into WAHEGURU.

Are the answers to these questions in Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

are you being serious here ?
do you think i got it from DG or anurag sagar or other granths ?
It's all in Guru granth sahib ji in non-metaphorical form.

Where does jeevn mukht (liberated while alive) fit into this model?

Jivan mukht means that you can experience this whilst living, and don't have to wait until after death. It's not the complete immersion into waheguru's ocean, because that happens after death.
It's the lower stages of mukti where one's identity still remains.
Jivan mukht should NOT be mistaken as the ''Be all and End all''
You have to understand that everything happens and follows orders of layers/stages/states of mind.

see..http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/quest...eincarnation-transmigration-8.html#post196086

I thought Sikhi was about avoiding complicated 'mental gymnastics' and having a simple, uncomplicated, logical acceptance of life as it is and using that as motivation to be a good person in society with truth, contentment and contemplation, in chardi kala.

Because all of this is still just satogun(maya) !
An atheist that doesn't meditate can be doing all the above.

.....see .from the same post i referenced above

Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA.
Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
BUT,BUT........BUT...

Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder !
WHY ??
Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA.
It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.

 

[chazSingh]

Quote:
Remember- ALL thoughts and deeds are MAYA.
Maya has 3 modes or gunas whichcan all be classed as Satogun, tamogun and ragogun.
Of these the higher good actions and thoughts are Satogun or satvic.
BUT,BUT........BUT...

Just doing Good deeds/being righteous/good thoughts can NOT help you climb that ladder !
WHY ??
Because, the good satogun stuff is STILL MAYA.
It may make you feel like you are doing the right thing, but you are only viewing on the surface and not getting into the esoteric layers of sikhi.
ONLY meditation can help you control your MIND in order to get out of 3 gunas of maya.

I think this is so well said...
doing truthful deeds and actions is a way to tip the balance...but is still part of Maya
eventually with such efforts, regular ardaas and Simran...we will all fall under the realm of grace and go beyond maya and the mind...

God Bless Lucky Ji

 

[spnadmin]

LuckySingh ji

I have followed a number of your comments in this thread for a day or two. Would you clarify whether these are your personal opinions or whether they are grounded in SGGS?

Of course, sources from SGGS require you post a full shabad with ang number, and your interpretation so that others an evaluate your vichaar.

Thank you.

 

[Luckysingh]

It's all in the Gurbani.
You have to pick up each little pearl that shines to you as you go through. And these pearls are everlasting, so you go back and discover more every time.

If you guys disagree with a particular point that I have noted, then please share the gurbani that you feel disagrees with what I'm saying, and then I can try clarify.

We have threads on all the areas I mentioned and one can check the discussions there to avoid repeating.

At this current stage I am at, I am more than convinced about what I'm talking about. Maybe in the near future, it may change ? who knows ?? (I know WHO knows!!)

 

[Ishna]

Here is a way to avoid "mental gymnastics".

Stop worrying about past lives and future lives. Nobody knows what they were or what they will be. Not even gurbani or the Hindu scriptures can tell you this.

Concentrate on making the most of the life you have right now.

Precisely, which is why Im confused about how some other posters are explaining complicated, esoteric systems of reincarnation and karma etc when Im not getting explanations of this system from the Gurbani. The Gurbani paints a simple picture and puts the emphasis squarely where it needs to be but posters here are explaining the ins and outs of things like reincarnation and have obviously given it much thought, so I ask the questions.

 

[spnadmin]

Then please take one of your allegations, tell us which "pearl" of Gurbani it corresponds to and give us the shabad, Luckysinghji.

 

[Luckysingh]

There are no ''allegations' with understanding subtle qualities.
Please give me such allegation example you are referring to and tell me why not? or why one should disagree.

 

[Inderjeet Kaur]

In each of us is the light of the Creator, summed up beautifully in the Sikh name Harjot. This jot is Eternal, immortal. It is this that goes from one body to the next. I call it my soul.

Eventually it will return from whence it came.

This is my belief. Too simple, I'm afraid.

 

[spnadmin]

There are no ''allegations' with understanding subtle qualities.
Please give me such allegation example you are referring to and tell me why not? or why one should disagree.

Luckysingh ji

It appears you have no intention of complying with my request/s.

Your post creates the impression that you understand "subtle qualities." Moreover you do not intend to ground your comments either in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or personal opinion. Therefore I must assume these are your opinions and that you are expressing yourself. That you are not trying to take the rest of us to church based on your opinions or based on gurbani.

If I am wrong and you are going beyond personal opinions, then I will have more to say. Thank you