Atheism Do You Believe In Waheguru

[findingmyway]

I have returned to this thread after a long absence and it makes fascinating reading! It is really interesting how the same passage can be interpreted so differently by different people. When I first read Arvind ji's opening post, I did not see reincarnation or anything else, merely one Sikh's personal connection with the Creator!

As I've been going through the thread, I've seen a lot of "I have experienced but few have", "I am able to wake early even though it is hard" etc. Rather than eradicating ego this seems to show ego. Something to bear in mind about what is trying to be achieved.........

 

[chazSingh]

I have returned to this thread after a long absence and it makes fascinating reading! It is really interesting how the same passage can be interpreted so differently by different people. When I first read Arvind ji's opening post, I did not see reincarnation or anything else, merely one Sikh's personal connection with the Creator!

As I've been going through the thread, I've seen a lot of "I have experienced but few have", "I am able to wake early even though it is hard" etc. Rather than eradicating ego this seems to show ego. Something to bear in mind about what is trying to be achieved.........

"i have experienced but few have" sounds very much the ego speaking...

"I am able to wake early even though it is hard" is just a description of ones own experience,,,unfortunately we have to use language created by the ego mind in the world of duality.

For me personally, it became apparent that "all is in his hands", if i wake up in the morning...its because of His grace, if i experience anything...it is He creating the experience, and He who is witness to it...the 'I' has nothing to do with it

 

[Harry Haller]

"i have experienced but few have" sounds very much the ego speaking...

"I am able to wake early even though it is hard" is just a description of ones own experience,,,unfortunately we have to use language created by the ego mind in the world of duality.

For me personally, it became apparent that "all is in his hands", if i wake up in the morning...its because of His grace, if i experience anything...it is He creating the experience, and He who is witness to it...the 'I' has nothing to do with it

Chazji,

I love you like I love my own brother, so I ask this truly to learn, not to be petty, I disagree with you only because I feel we all have free will, we can all be Gurmukh or manmukh, If I am unable to get up in the morning, surely it is down to me, not him, if I experience nothing, surely that is because I fall short, due to my own failings, myself, because I did not try hard enough, because my mind is not as connected, if you experience, that is down to your own perseverence, your own efforts, your faith, your stubborness not to accept, you are a better man than I, you keep going, your refusal to take the first hurdle, until finally, you gain the experience that your heart wants and needs so badly, surely this is not in the will of the Gods, it is down to you

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Chazji,

I love you like I love my own brother, so I ask this truly to learn, not to be petty, I disagree with you only because I feel we all have free will, we can all be Gurmukh or manmukh, If I am unable to get up in the morning, surely it is down to me, not him,

And here is where I differ from both of you... because I believe he = us - there is no separation. We are ONE and the same - so who really is the doer?

(and even the term 'he' is only because in the translation to English, it sounds very odd to use the term 'it' when speaking of a divine intelligence... but the use of he does not denote gender in this sense)

 

[chazSingh]

Chazji,

I love you like I love my own brother, so I ask this truly to learn, not to be petty, I disagree with you only because I feel we all have free will, we can all be Gurmukh or manmukh, If I am unable to get up in the morning, surely it is down to me, not him, if I experience nothing, surely that is because I fall short, due to my own failings, myself, because I did not try hard enough, because my mind is not as connected, if you experience, that is down to your own perseverence, your own efforts, your faith, your stubborness not to accept, you are a better man than I, you keep going, your refusal to take the first hurdle, until finally, you gain the experience that your heart wants and needs so badly, surely this is not in the will of the Gods, it is down to you

I agree somewhat...
i can only talk through my own experience and if i was in complete control of the 'journey' i would be able to re-create events...but i can't.
for me, i realised i can only surrender to His will...it becomes apparent that their is a pull, and flow which guides us...we can guide the boat in a sense but the undercurrent is always there and it is only our mind which tries to go against that undercurrent....if that makes any sense

A bird (in ego existance) may think it is flying on it's own accord...take away the air, and it lands flat on its face...

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhenji ,

in that case I have some questions, let us stick with the 'he' for the moment just to try and keep things simple.

This morning, I woke up at 6, and the first thing I wanted was sex! So who was it that wanted sex, him? or me? I had to fight the urge, and instead, suggested we take our dogs out, at this, my wife was very happy, so, we took the dogs out, for an hour, watched the sun, played with the boys, and everyone was happy, me, the wife, the dogs, everyone, but it took a herculean effort for me to do this, but I did it because it was the true and right thing to do, in the past, I have followed my base desires and pushed for what I wanted to do, rather than what was the true thing to do, and the dogs have not had a walk, I have had a short term pleasure, and my wife has felt that is all there is to our relationship, but that decision, that path is in my hands and my hands alone, is he in the rapist? is he in the child molester? at the point where a murderer kills, is he there?

For me, hell is a complete lack of connection where he is absent, where he is not there, if you could explain the above, I would be glad to learn, and I mean that in all sincereness, rather than the glib 'I would like to learn from you' that is actually sarcasm that is to be found in meaningless conversation

 

[Harry Haller]

and another thing! all I want to do today is hug people, learn from people, I dont wish to argue, or prove my point, or say my way is better, I just want to learn, to understand, to hone my own meaning of life, to see everyone elses point of view as they see it, and know why? because today, this morning, I started the day off in what I believe to be a true fashion, and it has set up me up.

I have no doubt that if I did not take the dogs out, if I pushed for sex, I would not be behaving this way, just as a point of interest

 

[Harry Haller]

i realised i can only surrender to His will

but ji, surely surrendering to his will is getting up and doing your simran? ignoring his will is staying in bed

 

[chazSingh]

And here is where I differ from both of you... because I believe he = us - there is no separation. We are ONE and the same - so who really is the doer?

(and even the term 'he' is only because in the translation to English, it sounds very odd to use the term 'it' when speaking of a divine intelligence... but the use of he does not denote gender in this sense)

Yes akasha Ji,

no Gender when we write He

If all is One - then surely He creates the experience, and He himself is witness to the experience...because there is no other.

But here we are, in duality experiencing 'seperateness'...experiencing the 'many' ... whilst i know all is one and i should recognise god in all...it often only takes someone insulting me for a little Anger to brew up inside...

But who am i getting Angry with? if there is only one...

It's this illusion/veil that i believe needs to be lifted with Simran, constant remembrance and Seva ... then our experience amongst the many becomes peaceful knowing in reality there is only one...

and rather than just kidding myself and my mind saying "all is One" ... i will actually Feel it in my whole being...

Just my thoughts...nothing else

 

[chazSingh]

but ji, surely surrendering to his will is getting up and doing your simran? ignoring his will is staying in bed

Yes ji,

but, when i'm in bed it's the same mind that says "get up" and the same mind that then says the opposite "stay asleep" ... what a great friend the mind is sometimes

but it's the accompanying yearning that feels different to the standard thought in the head...it feels different to the computational "i must get up" ... it's more a feeling...hard to explain...

yes, sometimes instinctually i can latch onto the "must get up" thought and i find myself out of bed...ego says "woo, i'm doing amrit vela, i did this, i did this all myself..." then tiredness boredom kicks in...and the same mind says "sod this...back to bed"

It's the feeling, the yearning, the pull which i feel gets me up most days, not my thoughts... its that yearning/pull that gets me sat and doing my Simran and keeps me awake for the following 2 hours or so...

What is that yearning, what is that pull? i can;t control it...so where is it coming from? I Have days when i dont feel it...why? is it always there (grace) but i don't feel it when i get engrossed in Ego, Desire, Anger, Lust, Greed?

If i follow this yearning and go with the flow..then i feel contempt, i feel at ease...when i ignore it, yes my life continues...but i feel like there's something missing to my life...

Just my current thoughts and feelings...nothing more ji.

 

[Harry Haller]

interesting Chazji,

I have to say for myself, it is like two seperate people, with seperate personalities, sometimes the arguing in my head is like a warzone, the good side of me, the true side of me is so different to the false side of me, to the point that I name one man, and the other animal, but we are all different

 

[chazSingh]

interesting Chazji,

I have to say for myself, it is like two seperate people, with seperate personalities, sometimes the arguing in my head is like a warzone, the good side of me, the true side of me is so different to the false side of me, to the point that I name one man, and the other animal, but we are all different

Sounds similar to when people say we have a soul (Good/God personality) and Mind (bad\ego personality)

Soul knows there is only God (One)
so it has no one to Hate as there is only One
it has no one to fear as there is only One
no one to hold a grudge against...there is only one

Then comes the mind (which creates the Ego existance, the many..you and I...this is mine, that is yours).

now there is someone to Hate...as there is many
there is someone to Fear...as there is many
there is someone to hold grudges against, as there is many.

how do we transfer that 100% certainty that the Soul has, across to the mind?...because we need the mind to operate in this creation...it is a gift...how do we get that certainty back so that we no longer fear, so that anxiety no longer rules...so that our true nature returns and we serve one another...


I had already deleted a single tuk and written my explanation after that. That has disappeared and the old entry is back. NO SINGLE TUKS. If I see this again the entire comment will be deleted. spnadmin

This is where i believe and many disagree that Simran shifts the balance.

The fact that you are recognizing the 'Two Separate personalities" is a step in the right direction...many people don't even recognize that. who or what is it that is recognizing 'The Wolf'? who is it that is witnessing the Wolf?

Just some thoughts that i'm throwing out into space

 

[Harry Haller]

This is where i believe and many disagree that Simran shifts the balance.

For me, there is something pure, noble about my Dogs, and they seem to be able to shift the balance,

However, I am 100% sure this would not work for you as well as Simran

 

[chazSingh]

For me, there is something pure, noble about my Dogs, and they seem to be able to shift the balance,

However, I am 100% sure this would not work for you as well as Simran

There is God within them also

A great quote i came across i while back:

“Dogs are our link to paradise. They don't know evil or jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring--it was peace.”
― Milan Kundera

That describes oneness of God to me...

 

[Harry Haller]

shall we have a hug now?

 

[spnadmin]

but ji, surely surrendering to his will is getting up and doing your simran? ignoring his will is staying in bed

harry ji

You may be making some assumptions that are not clear to me. How would the above work in real time? Please clarify assumptions you may be making that may not be clear to me.

1. What is "his will?"
2. How can his will be "ignored?" Is that possible?
3. I am clueless as to how surrendering to "his will" connects with simran in the morning or any other particular time of the day...though in Islam, meaning surrender, namaaz is tied to times of day.

 

[Harry Haller]

Adminji

1. It is my own personal opinion that his will is Hukam. We know what his will is, because it screams out at us, it is in our hearts. If we follow his will, we are Gurmukh, if we do not, we are manmukh, to debate otherwise, I would be most interested to know if this were not the case, then what do manmukh and Gurmukh stand for in that instance.

2. Of course, as in the above, anyone who ignores his will is a manmukh, I know what is best for me, it is to stay away from gambling, drugs, casual sex, etc etc, to do those is my will, actually, it isnt anymore, its no fight, its no struggle, because I feel my will, on those subjects, reflects his will, ie, I would rather have a cup of tea
3. That one you will have to ask Chazji, however, I have concluded that whatever I do first thing in the morning seems to reflect and set the tone for the rest of the day. Thus, taking the dogs out, walking in the park, having an innocent time with Sian, all seems to have given me a day of peace and happiness. I have started my day in the past with drugs, and I have spent the day as a zombie, or with casual sex, and have felt dirty, quite along the lines of 'he who dies thinking of sex will be reborn as a prostitute', yet another reason why I feel these lines do not refer to reincarnation, but thats a different topic, now I want my hug!!

 

[chazSingh]

harry ji

You may be making some assumptions that are not clear to me. How would the above work in real time? Please clarify assumptions you may be making that may not be clear to me.

1. What is "his will?"
2. How can his will be "ignored?" Is that possible?
3. I am clueless as to how surrendering to "his will" connects with simran in the morning or any other particular time of the day...though in Islam, meaning surrender, namaaz is tied to times of day.

*** Hug for Harry Ji ***

3. think Harry Ji explained this quite well..

It was just an example used , because (for me personally) i have an inner feeling/thirst/pull to do my Simran which is pulling me out of bed...but my mind makes excuses to stay in bed...

if i follow this inner pull/thirst/yearning, i feel content at peace...relaxed for the remaining day ... i feel i am in remembrance (simran) for the rest of the day also.
if i listen to my mind, and go back to sleep...then i feel like my day started off in the wrong manner (for me).

It's just an example...of my feelings. Maybe falling back to sleep is Also His will ... so that i can experience the Yin and Yang..

 

[Harry Haller]

maybe what you do first thing possibly makes the difference between making every hour in your waking day Amrit Vela

 

[spnadmin]

harry haller ji

"Hukam" was there before you were born, before Guru Nanak was born, before the world existed.

I am not sure that hukam is directed at any of us on an individual level, or that any of us can submit to its course in our lives or fight against it.

I am not sure how 'hukam" "screams." This is a serious question because I am wondering how different people interpret the word "hukam."

I am fairly certain that "his will" and "hukam" are not the same thing.

Gurmukh follows "his will?" A Gurmukh "turns his face to the Guru," is open to grace, is focused on the jyot which resides within all creation ... but most importantly LIVES in this knowledge. ALL actions are guided by this understanding. It is hukam that this happens, not "his will." I think it is the Manmukh who is struggling with the prospect of surrender to "his will" and struggling so hard that he/she loses sight of "hukam."