Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Confused ji

Before you jump ship, I would encourage this understanding. The Sikh notion of karma, particularly as it refers to 84 lakh joons, is not open and shut. So one source that interprets the idea in one way, may be at odds with other reputable sources. Karma in Sikhism has not been laid out as a doctrine to be understood in a mandatory and iron clad way. Let me see if I can locate a very current discussion of karma in Sikhism, which also distinguishes a Sikh view from a Brahminical view, and post it for you.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

OK - This is only one passage from a longer article (I know you don't like long articles) that examines karma, reincarnation, and transmigration in what some might term a radical Nanakian view. Karma is difficult to separate from reincarnation and transmigration. The author Baldev Singh espouses that Guru Nanak repudiated all 3 ideas in the traditional Vedic philosophy. The attached article goes into more detail.

Repudiation of Old Dogmas: 1. Karma and Reincarnation: The superstructure of Varna Ashrama Dharma/caste system is supported by karma and reincarnation (transmigration). In other words, both karma and reincarnation are part of the trilogy invented by the Brahmans and they both are designed to justify the caste base factor. The Brahman invoked divine sanctions to perpetuate the caste system for eternity. Hindu scriptures proclaim that Prajapati (God) ordained the four castes. This was followed by the invention of the doctrine of "karma and reincarnation" to desensitize people’s sense of justice and compassion against the atrocities committed on the masses to enforce the caste system. According to the law of karma, one reaps the fruit in this life for the deeds performed in the previous life. So, if a person is subjected to injustice and cruelty in this life, it is due to one’s own actions in previous life, not due to the perpetrators of cruelty and injustice. By observing the caste rules strictly and serving the superior castes faithfully one can earn the reward for the next life [1].

In spite of categorical and unequivocal rejection of reincarnation in the Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) why do many Sikhs believe in reincarnation? The main reason for this misunderstanding is the subversion of Nanakian philosophy (Gurmat) by its opponents. The anti-Gurmat Bipran (Brahmanical) literature [2] from the 18th century to the present depicts Sikhism as part of Hinduism – its sword arm against the onslaught of Islam. Further, Christian missionaries and Western writers also relied solely on Bipran literature at the exclusion of AGGS which is the only authentic source of Gurmat. They treated Sikhism as an offshoot of Hinduism or a mixture or hybrid or religious syncretism of Hinduism and Islam. Besides, as pointed out by Prof. Puran Singh, Sikh scholars/writers have not been able to extricate themselves from Brahmanical influence, and they have followed in the footsteps of Bipran and Western writers without undertaking a serious study of the AGGS:

The words Brhman (Brahm) and Para-Brahm also come in Guru Granth, but as Cunningham says “by way of illustration only;” Similarly the names of all gods and goddesses of Brahmanical Pantheon [3]. It is to be regretted that Sikh and Hindu scholars are interpreting Guru Nanak in the futile terms of the colour he used, the brush he took; are analyzing the skin and flesh of his words and dissecting texts to find the Guru’s meaning to be same as of the Vedas and Upanishads! This indicates enslavement to the power of Brahmanical tradition. Dead words are used to interpret the fire of the Master’s soul! The results are always grotesque and clumsy translations, which have no meaning at all. Macauliffe’s almost schoolboy like literal rendering into English, following possibly the interpretations given him by the Brahmanical type of gyanis, the un-illuminated theologians who lacked both the fire of inspiration, and the modern mental equipment and who were decayed and eaten up by the inner fungus of the Brahmanical mentality, has made the live faith of the Sikh a dead carcass. It has produced neither the beautiful artistic color of the idol and the shrine, nor the fervor of the inspiration of love. And from his translations, one thinks Sikhism is weak Brahmanism. Much that is redundant is put before a world audience, without the light that made every straw and every little dust particle, every pretty detail even, radiant and beautiful [4].

More recently, after an in-depth study of AGGS and Varna Ashrama Dharma, Jagjit Singh concludes: The grounds for the differentiation of the Gurus’ message from that of caste ideology and the caste society were far more basic. The caste ideology was the anti-thesis of humanism, and the caste society was extremely parochial in its outlook. To belong to it, it was necessary to be born within it. The land where the Varna Ashrama Dharma was not established was regarded impure, and the Aryavarta, the pure land, was at one period circumscribed within the limits of river Sindh in the North and river Carmanvati in the south. The Gurus rejected almost all the cardinal beliefs of the caste society....

 

[Ambarsaria]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Confused ji I find your posts good.

I don't think we are too far part in many ways. Consider for example the following excerpts from your post,

When this intention is driven by greed, hatred and delusion leading to certain actions, this is karma which will bring a corresponding result. The same with when it is driven by the opposites, namely non-greed, non-hatred and wisdom. It is clear that humans and animals are involved in actions all day, doing this and doing that, moving here and moving there.

​

So as from my thinking there is very sincere but subtle thing that perhaps is not necessarily flagged always and I may be even wrong. For me the following five,

• Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Hankar (and in one post you also identified the complements of the same) need to be addressed
• I believe if one postulates that all these be eliminated or made zero then I do not see any practical way of living. So for me it is the level of control and the judgments made to determine that level of control and corresponding actions lead to life taught to us by our Gurus and their Gurbani. So this allows you to live but also know certain and definite consequences of out of balance.
• With this point I do not see any conflict in my thought processes and understanding versus what you have stated. You have kind of called what is done in the context of the 5/10 beyond normal living as Karma with consequences. I don't know enough about connotations of Karma and you are a learned man, but I have seen Karma thrown around in lot of wrong contexts not with the depth of understanding that you have conveyed.

Without addressing the issue of two aspects of birth and death and the transformations therein I want to share the above comments.

I can certainly dialog on birth, death and transformations in a reasonably precise direct responses.

Regards.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

I endorse what you say Ambarsaria ji. And it may be that we need to identify points where there are similarities.

But not going so far off that we lose the sense of the thread.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

There is also a good discussion, on this thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essay...m-gurmatt-nankian-philosophy-totally-new.html

 

[Archived_member14]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Spnadmin ji,

There is also a good discussion, on this thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essay...m-gurmatt-nankian-philosophy-totally-new.html

Thank you for directing me to this discussion. I read most of it and enjoyed some of the comments.

I did not like the approach taken by the author of the essay and is why I read only a little of it. But of course this is understandable since he was out to dismiss the whole idea. To highlight the wrong attitude towards Karma held by a group of people and clear Sikhism from association with this, he has not offered an alternative understanding about the concept. It is fine if he does not want to believe in Karma and reincarnation (or rebirth). But to try and influence other people by way of highlighting one wrong attitude towards it is not just throwing the baby out with the bath water, but intentionally misleading. Indeed had he any understanding about karma himself, he’d not approach the problem the way he did.

But of course, what other people do and think is not my business and I should not feel any urge to try and help only those that I perceive as being misled. Besides, I clearly lack kindness in much of what I write, so why should I criticize anyone? Although when I do this, it is to illustrate some points and not only to express irritation. Besides I do offer my own understanding and not just criticize don’t I? And this is what I have done in my response to Jasleen ji, in the “What is Karma?” thread. I do hope that it will be useful.

 

[Archived_member14]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Ambarsaria ji,


--------

Ambarsaria:
Confused ji I find your posts good.

C: Thank you for saying it.

========

Ambarsaria:
I don't think we are too far part in many ways. Consider for example the following excerpts from your post,
When this intention is driven by greed, hatred and delusion leading to certain actions, this is karma which will bring a corresponding result. The same with when it is driven by the opposites, namely non-greed, non-hatred and wisdom. It is clear that humans and animals are involved in actions all day, doing this and doing that, moving here and moving there.

So as from my thinking there is very sincere but subtle thing that perhaps is not necessarily flagged always and I may be even wrong. For me the following five,
Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh and Hankar (and in one post you also identified the complements of the same) need to be addressed

C: Yes. And I was thinking in relation to the other thread which Spnadmin ji cited, that people are seeking direct statements about karma and reincarnation as proof of whether or not it is taught or emphasized in Sikh teachings. But what is the constant encouragement to beneficial courses of action and the avoidance of unbeneficial ones all about? What is the warning with regard to actions motivated by kam, krodh, lobh, moh and hankar all point to if not the fact of them being cause leading to undesirable results? And why must one insist that these only relate to *this* life alone?

We are totally in the dark when it comes to the nature of mental phenomena. Let alone begun to investigate kam, krodh and so on, often we do not even see the importance of doing this, some glaze over at the very mention of it. Instead we are at the level where hearing stories about and speculating as to what their natures are, is more interesting, if not entertaining. Sometimes more so when all this is done while pointing the finger at other people. Sometimes we even become self-willed and it is not surprising then, that we are so bold as to dismiss karma and rebirth (or reincarnation if you like). Especially since we have likely projected fatalism into the concept and like to believe otherwise, that we are in fact ‘in control’ of things.

=========

Ambarsaria:
I believe if one postulates that all these be eliminated or made zero then I do not see any practical way of living. So for me it is the level of control and the judgments made to determine that level of control and corresponding actions lead to life taught to us by our Gurus and their Gurbani. So this allows you to live but also know certain and definite consequences of out of balance.

C: There is no control outside of the mental phenomena performing individual and unique functions at any given moment. Wisdom performs its function aimed in the positive direction, but there is no entity standing apart to increase the momentum, pulling any strings or adding some catalyst. And one of the things wisdom would know is that for example, kindness is more effective in dealing with other people than any attachment that we have. Giving brings its results that ‘taking’ will never do. Moral restraint, unlike wrong deeds, is not accompanied by any agitation. Therefore if you want ‘control’ of the vices, it is only through the development of understanding that this will happen, not by any attempt at balancing, one done out of ignorance and desire for particular results.

=========

Ambarsaria:
With this point I do not see any conflict in my thought processes and understanding versus what you have stated. You have kind of called what is done in the context of the 5/10 beyond normal living as Karma with consequences. I don't know enough about connotations of Karma and you are a learned man, but I have seen Karma thrown around in lot of wrong contexts not with the depth of understanding that you have conveyed.
Without addressing the issue of two aspects of birth and death and the transformations therein I want to share the above comments.
I can certainly dialog on birth, death and transformations in a reasonably precise direct responses.

C: I would like to read your comments on what I have just posted in the “What is Karma?” thread.

Regards.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji

You are working on your second ban. Please stay on topic. Refrain from negativity. Take the Sri Guru Granth Sahib seriously if only because SPN does not exist to give you a platform for undermining it for the benefit of an anonymous Internet audience. There are other forums like TOPIX who would welcome you with open arms. Thanks.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Shanger ji's comments deleted in the quoted copy. spnadmin

Shanger ji it appears you have not learnt basic etiquette of growing up. Most people here are respectful and much older not that age needs to equate to intelligence.

You should do a quick introspection why you alone have issues while others all respectfully posting. No body is towing the party line as none exists.

Please provide on-topic and comments in areas you know something about. If you are not sikh or misguided one and believe that you know or have better understanding than all (very much against Sikhism fundamentals and teachings), may God help you.

For every 100 people there are 200 devil's advocates if that is your line of thinking or value add.

Sorry if it shows some bitterness.

These threads may be of help to you.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/34378-lets-agree-to-disagree.html
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/31145-the-sai-baba-scamster-sikh-archives.html

Sat Sri Akal