Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Thanks for all replies, I will go read through each post and answer, so if I say something that has been proven wrong/countered in a later post, it is because I have not yet got to it.

Seeker9, your comments demonstrate why I see discussions of proofs and miracles going in circles.

One cannot logically prove the negative - that God does not exist, or that QP can show that God does not exist, or that the Big Bang theory proves there is not God. All science can do is argue there is insufficient evidence for x y or z.

Even if a nonbeliever had what is called a Pauline conversion in which God strikes him blind with miraculous light, manifests, and turns the nonbeliever into a believer, his vision restored and improved -- that is also a subjective experience. It places the person converted by his own special miracle in the same position as above. What objective evidence does he use to convince anyone else.

There is no where to go with the suggestion.

My point of view is that, if one is to follow a religious book which governs their life and claims to be connected to god (as well as the existence of a god) it is not unreasonable to expect some proof that it is genuine.


Before I said that I would like -

Anything that can prove something like there is a god, sikhi is connected to god etc.
I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

To which you replied

Suppose someone would give examples that they honestly felt fit the bill from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And suppose you did not agree and critiqued their answers asking for more proofs and better logic. What would that accomplish?

I said that I would give a fair analysis, whether we agree that my analysis is fair only time will tell.

What would be accomplished is that I can get a better understanding of why Sikhi/SGGSJ does have a connection to god, if we come to no agreement then at least we had a discussion right?

Ok but I would ultimately have to disagree as there are no scientific methods to provide the proof that you seek..so what you ask is impossible

Following on from SPN Admin Ji's comments below, here's something funny about the concept of proof from one of my favourite novels..The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams:

The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen it to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God.
.

If-
amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

are impossible to extract from any religious book, then how do you know it is genuine?

I don't understand the point of the book piece, the Babel fish is fictional? It sounds to me like it is making fun of the idea of god?

actually I believe it is our conscience which tells us right from wrong. Also we have intuition. You can't come at spirituality using only half your brain.

Ishna

Logic too! You can't have a conscience without logic.

log·ic (ljk)
n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
2.
a. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
b. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
c. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji,

I still do not see why you should arrive at this conclusion. I’ve not commented so far because I’m not a Sikh and I do not believe in God, any version of it. But at no time has such a conclusion ever been necessitated, for example that Guru Nanak taught what he did with the intention to control people!?

Hello
There are threats of being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation unless one complies with worshipping god, that is controlling people through fear.

I am fully aware sikhi doesn't dictate peoples lives to a large extent like other religions but that still is a method of controlling people.

Is it perhaps that you had previously come to the kind of conclusion in considering religions such as Christianity and Islam and now you approach Sikh with some preconceived ideas?

Maybe, though like I just said above the threats are still there.

Below are some points you might like to consider. I do not know the facts, but it should not matter if I misrepresent and misinterpret what actually took place. Since the main point I want to make is that people are inspired and like to share their knowledge and understandings:

-Guru Nanak experienced what may be called “God-consciousness”.
-The impression was of coming to have knowledge and understanding, including a perspective regarding good and evil not seen before, which could only come from the experience of such a state.

Maybe Guru Nanak did experience God-consciousness, or maybe he lied or had mental issues (no disrespect).

The idea of good and evil was not revolutionary, there have always been ideas of what is wrong and right.

-One could therefore say that the knowledge was given by God.
-There is a sense of gratitude associated with this.
-This is expressed by way of praise for the source of such knowledge, namely God.
-Sometimes this praise comes in the form of extoling God in terms of his power.
-Sometimes the praise is toward ethical qualities.
-Practices are prescribed whereby others could also have the same experience.

Like I said, maybe Guru Nanak did experience God-consciousness, or maybe he lied or had mental issues (no disrespect).

-But not everyone will be able to achieve this. For them, suggestions aimed at living a reasonably moral life have been given.

Well then that isn't very fair is it? That goes back to my reasoning that I could write my own book and say those who cannot feel the spirituality just cannot achieve it.

Do you think sharing knowledge is in fact an expression of intention to ‘control people’?

Expecting people to live a certain way with threats of not reaching salvation, is controlling people.

& it is not knowledge that holds any weight unless proven.

Would you consider generosity with regard to material objects also the same way?

I'm sorry I dont understand what you mean here.

Thanks for reply

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

To my knowledge, the Gurus never forced anyone to do anything, therefore they were not controlling anyone. They weren't commanding people to convert and threatening them with death if they didn't. They didn't order people to do something one way and punish them if they didn't comply.

Not directly, but threats of being stuck in salvation for not praying/serving the guru is controlling, especially without proof of the gurus high spirituality or connection with god.

Otherwise it is like me writing my own book, saying people must pray to god to break the cycle of reincarnation, and to justify my threats by saying that is it just me sharing knowledge because it is truth because i said so.

Please give me an example of where you think any Guru was intending to control people.

worship god/serve guru to reach salvation

prohibition of alcohol/halal meat

I understand many other religions are controlling. They threaten people with Hell if they don't obey. They kill them, ostracise them, excommunicate them from their families, take their children away from them, etcetc. They manipulate people of lesser intellect through fear. Our Guru's endeavoured to release people from the fear the Brahmins were controlling them with.

I've addressed this above, & yes i do agree many other religions did extremely bad things.

Judgement of the Guru's levels of spirituality is subjective. I think Kahlil Gibran is spiritual, I think the Tao Te Ching is spiritual, I enjoy their poetry and symbolism. I don't like the Dalai Lama's work, I don't find it spiritually satisfying. Someone else here might be exactly the opposite. See how it is subjective? If you don't find the Guru's work spiritually uplifing, then you don't. If you don't like chocolate gelati, then you don't. If you don't like the Mona Lisa, then you don't. Plenty of other people think they're AWESOME.

Ishna

If I must pray to god to reach salvation and break the cycle of reincarnation, but I do not have the ability to see the spiritual side of SGGSJ, then that is a pretty cruel trick from god no?

It makes no sense at all for a religious book which governs your life to be subjective.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger, I don't believe the examples you gave fit the definition of "controlling". Controlling is forcibly enforcing the rules. The Guru's to my knowledge never did that. They gave recommendations, people are free to choose or not choose. They also explain the consequenses of each choice.

I aim a gun at your head, give me your money or I will shoot you. I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you give me your money, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

Pray to god or be stuck in the cycle of reincarnation, I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you pray to god/serve the guru/avoid alcohol & halal meat etc, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

Do you now see how the logic of what you said fails?

And I also realise my question was asked/answered earlier in the thread, whoops.

So, prove to me where the Gurus were controlling people, not just giving advice.

And watch me deny it, just as you deny all our explanations. You will not be satisfied.

Ishna

See example above, all the orders to pray, and avoid things, life a certain way, are controlling people, and not just advice.

Also, you've contradicted yourself, I highlight in bold red:





So which one is it, Shanger? It sounds like you've already made up your mind.


You already know you don't like strawberries, we can't talk you into liking them.

Ishna

Good point, I don't believe in a conventional god from any religion*, is what I was supposed to say, sorry for not being more clear.

 

[Randip Singh]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

I understand your reasons for liking Sikhism, some of them I share.

my first post in this thread could have been more clear, a better question would have been-

what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?

Maybe they were just intelligent men, but either way I liked their message.

I try not to get hung up on words:

Guru |Nanak said - Higher than truth is truthful living, i.e. don't just talk, do it. Talking about truth, spirituality etc is futile.

Their actions definitely were of men who not only talked truth, but walked truth. Thats enough for me.

This concept we get hung up on that they were from God, men of God, part of God, Sons of God etc etc are all Semitic concepts that really do not fit well with Sikhism.

So I would say you are looking in the wrong place my friend. You will never find Sikhism to be the religion for you.:interestedkudi:

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji,

Again I don’t know the details and who said what. I don’t believe in any rules except when it comes to social matters involving groups of people and their living together. But when it is about what in the end comes down to “knowing oneself as one is”, rules are misleading and can only be inhibiting.

The rule about the 5ks must in fact be a social one, although even here, I see no sense of it at all. But I think you’d need to separate this from the other consideration.

Not eating halal meat is another rule which does not make any sense to me. One could emphasize on the wrongness of torture while understanding that meat is just meat. But again, the intention may be more to highlight cruelty, could it not?

If halal meat subjects animals to torture (I think it might I'm not aware), then that is a good point. Although if animals are on the same level as plants as rocks (from Randip Singhjis article) than does it really matter considering the pain the sugar cane goes through?

Alcohol can sometimes be taken as medicine, but only if no other alternative exists. Otherwise it is harmful for sure. And there is never a good reason to drink it even a little, especially given that it leads to lapse in moral behavior. Besides it is habit forming and there is no telling if anyone will increase his intake. So isn’t it good advice to warn against consuming it? And why must anyone take such advice to be in fact a commandment? I don’t think it was meant to be as such.

I gave the example of red wine being good for the heart, in moderation it is absolutely ok. It seems to be a commandment as it is forbidden therefore against the words of the Gurus, who you must serve to reach salvation.

Praying is another thing I don’t believe in, for obvious reasons. But again here, can’t this be seen as a prescribed practice aimed at a particular result for the good of those who follow? And looking down on those who do not follow, must this be seen as finger pointing? Could it not be interpreted as simply showing the harm of not following the path of the good?

If you're suggesting pray to god (whose existence you're unsure of) so that it encourages you to be good, I say can't we be good people anyway?

Please see my example with the gun and money above.

It is literally showing the harm of not following the gurus direct orders to pray to god and live a certain way from my understanding.

And being stuck in the cycle of existence, you may not agree with any of this. But the basic principle is that as long as there is no realization, one would be driven by states which lead to repeatedly being reborn again and again. So again, why must it be seen as an attempt to control? Why can’t it be seen as reminder about the harm of evil states?

Who wants to be stuck in cycle of reincarnation? If everyone believed that there was a such thing as salvation, every sane human would wish to reach it. Therefore threats of not reaching salvation work as methods to control in my opinion.

I wonder if you come in from a philosophy which professes that people should be allowed to learn from experience, believing that they must surely learn how to find gratification if left alone? And I wonder if you are trying to control anyone in trying to point this out. ;-)

I don't think I understand what you're saying, can you please reword it a little more simpler for my sake.

Thanks

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

No Sikh Guru ever forbade, scorned, ordered the 5 k's, threatened anyone with anything, or made people to live a certain way. Granted this kind of behavior is common among babas and ammas running an ashram or heading of a sect here and there around the world. But in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only guru, are the voices of Sikh Gurus, Bhagats and Bhatts, and none of them stand guilty of blaming, shaming, controlling. And that takes us back to the paurees of Japuji that you posted -- which you have not yet explored with us sincerely. So you must be confusing what you have seen and heard with what is actually there. You are looking at a lot of work ahead of you if you really want to understand.

Please read my example of controlling but disguising it as you making a choice through your own freewill having opitons-

I aim a gun at your head, give me your money or I will shoot you. I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you give me your money, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

I gave my thoughts on the paurees in terms of what I thought they meant, I read each line and then gave my interpretation, along with whether there was anything special/spiritual about them meaning a regular human could not have wrote them, I was waiting for someone to give their thoughts in return. Just because I didnt write a long essay does not mean that I did not explore it sincerely. If there is anything wrong my analysis please share you views.

Thanks

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

I am a simple man. What i dont understand is the BIBLE proclaims as loudly as it possibly cna that its the WORD of GOD...why people have a tendency to "doubt" that ?? Lots of Miracles, supernatural happenings, waking the dead, turning water into wine etc etc also performed..Immaculate Conception is a ONE OFF occurence ..still people DOUBT..

The KORAN says the exact same things as the Bible does...still many people DOUBT that too...

I (and many others) have not seen those miracles you listed (unless you were being sarcastic) but that would influence an opinion greatly.

The doubts are there (with regards to quran and bible) because of errors in those books, meaning that they cannot be from god if they have errors.

So whats it that will really and truly CONVINCE each living soul on this planet ??...create a really doubtfre environment...hallelujah ??

People look at the Bible..doubt it..and then ask..how about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? does it lay the same claims as the Bible ?? the Koran ?/ if NOT why NOT ?? I say who CARES. Live ones life as best as one can.....Guru Nnak ji never lay any claims to anything...neother do the other 33 + contributors of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...what they ALL do is that they do tell us in no uncertain terms HOW THEY EXPERIENCED the CREATOR..the ULTIMATE...JOYS..and tell us all HOW to experience the same JOYS...as best as they can..and its up to us to listen or ignore..no compulsion.

The claims are there in my opinion, SGGSJ claims that there is a god, and that not praying will result in being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation.

I'm just asking how do we know that theyre not lying? You imply that we can experience the same joys, does that mean that a person who reads SGGSJ with an open mind who does not feel the spiritual side, is cursed?

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dear Shangar Ji

It does look like our roles have reversed as now you appear to be the one expressing blind faith ... in logic

Their is scientific evidence to backup QP yet you still want to hold out for a future logical explanation.

Interesting isn't it???

I already told you that I know about the double split experiment was from that youtube vid, which suggested that are explanations, but none with have an universal agreement from the scientists.

I am not putting blind faith in logic, I am just not going to immediately attribute mind-boggling happenings to god.

If there is scientific evidence to back up QP, then why were you using QP as an example of something which could not be proven?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

'Shangerji

I myself believe that Sikhism allows for the concept of "conditional free will." There are those who do not agree and see free will as completely absent in Sikhism.

That however is something of a red herring in the context of this discussion - though not completely. More to the point is to know where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji you see anything that amounts to this idea

I aim a gun at your head, give me your money or I will shoot you. I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you give me your money, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

What is the analogy?

First, in terms of proportionality, what have you found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is tantamount to a recommendation which, not taken, leads to the consequences of robbery and homicide? The recommendation you are describing is not really a recommendation, but a threat.

Second, in terms of all the different kinds of human concerns, as discussed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, nothing there is really hypothetical. Poetry it is. But it is poetry that resounds with the real life experiences of ordinary people who were confronted with moral and ethical choices, in wealthy and powerful places in society, and among the powerless and poor. Sometimes choices taken led to misery - as in shabads where sexual dissipation is the subject. Sometimes these shabads are about choices that were made by the powerful and that wreaked havoc and misery on the lives of others - as Guru Nanak's hymn about the destruction of Lahore.

Guru Nanak is not recommending anything. He is portraying with powerful examples what the consequences of our actions are likely to be. He is describing the heavy moral and psychological cost to ourselves and others, when we decide to retreat from our duty to be conscious of morality and to make moral choices. Instead we veer off in directions that seem "safe" "easy" "clever" or "prudent" when we are actually driven by ego's desire to play our cards right and escape immediate discomforts.

Guru Nanak tells us that is wrong-headed thinking, and is the real cause of our suffering and the damage we do to others. So to borrow your analogy: "Someone" is not pointing a gun at us. Rather we are pointing the gun at ourselves. And the choice is to put the gun down and be truly human, or commit moral suicide.

 

[Seeker9]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dear Shangar Ji

Please re-read my posts

You had dismissed religion on the basis of logic

I asked you if you were willing to dismiss Science as well as therer are aspects of Science
that defy logic

You asked for an example and I give you one

so my point is that I do not accept your logic argument

as stated before, I do not accept your esoteric knowledge before its time requirement either unless you want to worship the builders of stonehenge and the pyramids


re supernatural evidence, I see you have not answered my question about The Ten Commandments which woul surely satisfy your requiremnt of divine origins?

from my phone so apologies for quality

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Look at youre watch or a clock, what is the shape of the instrument we use to measure time?

The strongest shape/form in engineering is a circle or a sphere. This is why we use round tires on cars and even tanks. Hold a egg in youre palm and try to crush it with youre whole hand and you will NOT be able too.

Look at the shape of the planets, round/spheres. Look at the way the planets travel around the sun(circular).

Look at the seasons of the year spring,summer,winter,autumn then it repeats again and again year after year, and ENDLESS cycle.

Look at how rain forms, gathers h20 from the sea, collects in a cloud, cloud travels dumps water in the ground, from the ground water finds its way back into the ocean.

Yeah the universe/earth has amazing feats and great design, but that doesn't mean that it had to have been a God who created it.

why do many animals go extinct, why do thousands of small turtles etc get eaten before making adulthood, why do millions of sperm get wasted when only 1 is required , many scientists say that less than 1 in a million planets in our galaxy and other galaxies may be able to support life. In our own solar system just 1 out of 9 planets is habitable.

You must also take the negatives along with the positives.

This is why i said you lack wisdom AND knowledge, not saying it to offend you but its obvious to me you lack basic 101's in eastern philosophy and ancient western philosophy for the ancients in the west knews almost the same thing that contemporary easterners know.

Human logic is NOT the only tool we have to distinguish from evil and good, the mind/intellect is an INFERIOR tool compared to the higher faculties which we have such as intuition/consciousness/awareness. The greeks knews about these higher faculties, the pre abrahamic middle eastern peoples knew this(kabbalah) and so did the whole ancient world.

Yeah you're right I don't know much about history at all.

We use logic for every thought process

log·ic (ljk)
n.
1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
2.
a. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
b. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
c. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.

Intellect
in·tel·lect (ntl-kt)
n.
1.
a. The ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding.
b. The ability to think abstractly or profoundly. See Synonyms at mind.
2. A person of great intellectual ability.

Logic and intellect and not mutually exclusive. It is to do with using the knowledge we have to reason.

What are these higher faculties you speak of?

You are completely missing out on the information that i presented to you and projecting youre skepticism unnecasarily. The whole point of my post was that of SOUND/VIBRATION/HARMONY/OMGKAR/GOD/UNIVERSE. You clearly missed the big picture which is that the universe is governed by hamonic principles to the extent that each planet is even emmiting harmonic tones and all the planets together form an orchestra. If the planets and the universe are governed by harmonic principles, is it not plausible even for a skeptic that the "creating force" itself might some sort of ultimate harmonic priciple?

I fully understood what you said. & yeh there is a chance that the creating force might be some sort of ultimate harmonic principle. If you read what I said, I haven't dismissed that possibility. But for now that's all it is, a possibility. Do you deny that there is a chance that there is no relation to the celestial orchestra at all? Either way do you honestly believe that that is the only proof required to show gods existence?

There have been some very good replies and responses here yet you are rejecting most of them and not understanding them. I see a viscious circle going on within this thread.

I already said I haven't dismissed your point on the celestial orchestra. I also gave my thoughts and interpretation of the pauree you posted, if we agree on nothing with respect to whether SGGSJ is from god, at least we can clarify the meanings of shabads.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Maybe they were just intelligent men, but either way I liked their message.

I try not to get hung up on words:

Guru |Nanak said - Higher than truth is truthful living, i.e. don't just talk, do it. Talking about truth, spirituality etc is futile.

Their actions definitely were of men who not only talked truth, but walked truth. Thats enough for me.

This concept we get hung up on that they were from God, men of God, part of God, Sons of God etc etc are all Semitic concepts that really do not fit well with Sikhism.

So I would say you are looking in the wrong place my friend. You will never find Sikhism to be the religion for you.:interestedkudi:

So that we are clear-

Are you saying that, you do not care if there is a god or if sikhi is connected to god, but that you only care that the Gurus were good men who taught good morals/principles led by example etc?

'Shangerji

I myself believe that Sikhism allows for the concept of "conditional free will." There are those who do not agree and see free will as completely absent in Sikhism.

That however is something of a red herring in the context of this discussion - though not completely. More to the point is to know where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji you see anything that amounts to this idea

What is the analogy?

Sorry, here it is-
Pray to god or be stuck in the cycle of reincarnation, I am not controlling you, I am recommending that you pray to god/serve the guru/avoid alcohol & halal meat etc, you are free to choose whether to do it or not, I am not controlling you to make a decision, I am only explaining the consequences.

Basically I am getting at the illusion of freewill.

First, in terms of proportionality, what have you found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is tantamount to a recommendation which, not taken, leads to the consequences of robbery and homicide? The recommendation you are describing is not really a recommendation, but a threat.

Not reaching salvation personally bothers me much more robbery. & being told I will never reach it without praying to god acts as a thread and not a recommendation.

Second, in terms of all the different kinds of human concerns, as discussed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, nothing there is really hypothetical. Poetry it is. But it is poetry that resounds with the real life experiences of ordinary people who were confronted with moral and ethical choices, in wealthy and powerful places in society, and among the powerless and poor. Sometimes choices not taken led to misery - as in the many shabads where sexual dissipation is the subject. Sometimes these shabads are about choices that were made by the powerful and that wreaked havoc and misery on the lives of others - as Guru Nanak's hymn about the destruction of Lahore.

I agree there is much to learn from that can benefit everyone.

Guru Nanak is not recommending anything. He is portraying with powerful examples what the consequences of our actions are likely to be. He is describing the heavy moral and psychological cost to ourselves and others, when we decide to retreat from our duty to make moral choices. Instead we veer off in directions that seem "safe" or "prudent" when we are actually driven by ego's desire to play our cards right and escape immediate discomforts.

One can make good moral choices in life without praying to god, but according to SGGSJ they will not reach salvation.

Guru Nanak tells us that is wrong-headed thinking, and is the real cause of our suffering and the damage we do to others. So to borrow your analogy: "Someone" is not pointing a gun at us. Rather we are pointing the gun at ourselves. And the choice is to put the gun down and be truly human, or commit moral suicide.

Must I pray to god to be truly human? Can I not reach salvation from living a good life of morals alone?

 

[Seeker9]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

I don't understand the point of the book piece, the Babel fish is fictional? It sounds to me like it is making fun of the idea of god?

It is indeed fictional and funny which I noted in my post and yes, it is making fun out of those who have discussions about God and the faith Vs logic arguments.....

I thought it was amusing and appropriate that's allwinkingmunda

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

shangerji

I think we have hit pay dirt. This is where your misunderstanding lies

One can make good moral choices in life without praying to god, but according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ they will not reach salvation.

Not what Guru Nanak is saying at all. You have conflated or compressed several ideas, making moral choices, salvation, and praying to God. Yes making good moral choices does not entail praying to God. But... Think for a moment. Why does prayer, I prefer bhagati to prayer, bring you closer to God? Who is this God? Where is this God? What is the moral person getting closer to? Is the moral person who makes good choices that far away from the God that Guru Nanak was mindful of? Does that person experience Guru Nanak's idea of salvation?

I want to stay on task, regarding your misunderstandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Discussing faith versus logic will get us nowhere and it will allow right and wrong understandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to get lost in the swamp of unresolvable philosophical questions.

 

[Seeker9]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Discussing faith versus logic will get us nowhere and it will allow right and wrong understandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to get lost in the swamp of unresolvable philosophical questions.

Dear SPN Admin Ji

I accept your point

However, I think if someone is querying the validity of Scripture, then using that same Scripture as the source of its own proof is not going to make much headway...

I think we have seen that in terms of the detailed posts from many contributors and how they have been responded to

This is why I was trying an alternative approach, but as you have noted already, we appear to be going in circles there as well and Shangar Ji has failed to answer a couple of issues I raised, so sadly not very fruitful

I will sit back and see how this progresses

Thanks

R

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dear Shangar Ji

Please re-read my posts

You had dismissed religion on the basis of logic

I asked you if you were willing to dismiss Science as well as therer are aspects of Science
that defy logic

I asked which aspects, and you said the double split thing. Then you said that scientific evidence backs up QP. I don't understand your stance?

You asked for an example and I give you one

so my point is that I do not accept your logic argument

please see above, i am confused on your views with regards to the double split experiment.

as stated before, I do not accept your esoteric knowledge before its time requirement either unless you want to worship the builders of stonehenge and the pyramids

Why would I worship those builders? Especially since I don't know who (or what) it was who came up with the design/instructions, if the builders were puppets it makes no sense to worship them. If someone had've claimed responsibility with proof, then I could consider them special.

re supernatural evidence, I see you have not answered my question about The Ten Commandments which woul surely satisfy your requiremnt of divine origins?

from my phone so apologies for quality

What are you suggesting it is about the ten commandments that would make me consider them to be special?

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Seeker ji

I was not referring to you. ESP maybe? That I was just thinking about you and how genuine you are in your questions and comments. I always feel so bad when you show up just when a thread is strangling on its own tangles and knots. In this case, it started a day or 2 ago.

The title of thread is Sikhism is Right/From God. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has been the source of Sikh belief as far as I am aware. So statements that based wrong beliefs about Sikhism on wrong understandings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji need to be refuted. IMHO the faith/logic distinction takes the thread away from where it began.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shangerji

What are you suggesting it is about the ten commandments that would make me consider them to be special?

Seeker09 ji is trying to figure out exactly what meets your criterion of "special." He asked you that before.

Does anyone else think we have already crossed the line that divides reasonable questions about the fundamentals of Sikhi and outright insults to Sikhs, Sikhism and Sikh Gurus? I do.