Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Thanks for replies, I will read through them slowly.

but quickly regarding the last point from Seeker9ji-

I am now asking you to do some explaining and prove to us that God does not exist.....

the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim about such existence. for example i could say that the entire universe is ruled by a gigantic lion in outer space, which is billions of galaxies away. It would be unreasonable for me to ask you to prove me wrong, because it is not possible, which is why it makes sense for people who say that there is a god, to be the ones who have to do the proving.

But if its really important, I can still give my reasons for not believing in a conventional god as suggested by religions, but it would better to do that later so that this thread doesn't have too many discussions going on at the same time.

I haven't read all the replies yet I will begin now from the start.

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

1) Or are you insisting on seeing a miracle yourself now with your own eyes before you are prepared to accept anything?


2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...i


You have asked us to explain why we believe what we do and all the replies have been thorough and true.

.....ultimately I think we will find it comes down to personal choice...you either choose to believe or you don't.............

Seeker9, your comments demonstrate why I see discussions of proofs and miracles going in circles.

One cannot logically prove the negative - that God does not exist, or that QP can show that God does not exist, or that the Big Bang theory proves there is not God. All science can do is argue there is insufficient evidence for x y or z.

Even if a nonbeliever had what is called a Pauline conversion in which God strikes him blind with miraculous light, manifests, and turns the nonbeliever into a believer, his vision restored and improved -- that is also a subjective experience. It places the person converted by his own special miracle in the same position as above. What objective evidence does he use to convince anyone else.

There is no where to go with the suggestion.

 

[Seeker9]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Thanks for replies, I will read through them slowly.

but quickly regarding the last point from Seeker9ji-



the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim about such existence. for example i could say that the entire universe is ruled by a gigantic lion in outer space, which is billions of galaxies away. It would be unreasonable for me to ask you to prove me wrong, because it is not possible, which is why it makes sense for people who say that there is a god, to be the ones who have to do the proving.

But if its really important, I can still give my reasons for not believing in a conventional god as suggested by religions, but it would better to do that later so that this thread doesn't have too many discussions going on at the same time.

I haven't read all the replies yet I will begin now from the start.

Ok but I would ultimately have to disagree as there are no scientific methods to provide the proof that you seek..so what you ask is impossible

Following on from SPN Admin Ji's comments below, here's something funny about the concept of proof from one of my favourite novels..The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams:

The Babel fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen it to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God.
.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Yes you are right. This proof is in the very first word that nanak uttered after attaining enlightment, the problem is you lack two things and no it is not faith. You lack 1)wisdom and 2)awareness. This proof is stated in the beginning of every ragga/shabbad.

EK-ONGKAR

Out of the thousands of names that humans have attributed to god(allah, yahweh, dios, bhagavan,god etc) there is only ONE and ONE true name that was not assigned by any man in any language but is a product of god himself, that true name of the creater is ONGKAR.

Okay I understand your definition. Though without being disrespectful I don't see how you can that proof of God is on just one word and claim that I lack wisdom.

I see what Ek-Ongkar means but that still doesn't mean there is a god in the first place, however I will read on.

Onkar means "the sound of OM" which i believe in rooted in the ancient vedas and eventually hinduism. When a person reaches a state of SAMADHI or ENGLIGHTMENT one finaly gets to hear "the melody of existence". The universe is made of ENERGY and sound is an expression of ENERGY or VIBRATION. In eastern philosophy(throught the whole ancient world really) sages discovered this thousdands of years ago, they discovered that existence,sound and energy are all one. As a matter a fact every single planet is ommiting certain harmonic tones and together form a CELESTIAL ORCHERTRA. Also the harmonic notes which we use to play music derived from the distance(i could be wrong) or spot which the planets occupy.

YouTube - Jupiter sounds (so strange!) NASA-Voyager recording

Do you mean "the sound of OM" as in literally OMMMM? Because that video shows that there are many different noises.

I accept the information about the sounds in space, but I think that it is too far-fetched to immediately associate that to the meaning of Ek-Ongkar, if you are suggesting that the Gurus were intentionally referring to the celestial orchestra, surely you would need something else more clearer/precise said since you claim it as proof that god exists?

however for now i will NOT rule out the possibility that the Gurus were in fact making references to the celestial orchestra.

Omkar is also knows as the "unstruck sound" or "Ananhat Naad" because it is beyond all DUALITY. For sound to be created a DUALITY is needed. For example in a string instrument you need 1)the strings 2) the plucking of the fingers. This duality creates a sound and all sound is created out of this DUALITY. God is beyond DUALITY, timeless, formless, beyond birth and rebirth, uncaused cause, beyond casuality(as the merovingian would say in Matrix 2).

I understand your meaning of duality, but again I don't see how it can apply to god. As it is like saying, gods exists because the Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ says so. Do you see where I am coming from?

A man of god recognises another man of god. A thief recognises a thief. A philosopher can spot out another philosopher. A sorcerer can spot out another sorcerer. Only the wise will be able to recognise the TRUE GURU(any teacher) , so if you cannot see the wisdom of the 10 masters of the world then it is not their fault or prolem. It is youres. Here goes a shabad which i consider SUBLIME and TIMELESS and which YOU can benefit a lot from.

goes back to my own example, what if i made my own religion and claimed
that if you cannot see the wisdom it is because it is your own fault.

Human logic/intelligence is the only tool we have to distinguish the right from wrong and evil from the good.

Without it we could not tell apart a charlatan/impostor from a true guru/messenger of God. There's been many impostors claiming to be prophets/sent from god every year. How do we know they are not telling the truth and that the Gurus were? We must use our intelligence/logic. The same imperfect and fallible intelligence that cannot comprehend god. Do you see my point? It makes no sense to simply say one lacks wisdom if he doesnt accept something as being true.


I will type what I think each part of the shabad means, the bits I do not understand I will ask you to clarify if you don't mind, then I will share my thoughts with you on the shabad.

Raag Gauree Gwaarayree, Third Mehla, Ashtpadeeaa:fficeffice" /><?"urn:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

The pollution of the mind is the love of duality.

only accepting that with fits with principles of duality is that which is wrong with us.

Deluded by doubt, people come and go in reincarnation. ||1||

people go through reincarnation (maybe deluded by doubt means that those who cannot accept that there are things beyond duality will stay in the cycle of reincarnation and not reach salvation? please clarify)

The pollution of the self-willed manmukhs will never go away,

those who stray by following their own desires will always exist

as long as they do not dwell on the Shabad, and the Name of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

i dont understand what tht means in this context please clarify.

All the created beings are contaminated by emotional attachment;

all creatures have the flaw of emotional attachment

they die and are reborn, only to die over and over again. ||2||

they keep going through reincarnation

Fire, air and water are polluted.

The food which is eaten is polluted. ||3||

not sure sure what this means, maybe a metaphor? please clarify

The actions of those who do not worship the Lord are polluted.

the actions of ppl who dont worship god wrong/corrupted

Attuned to the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the mind becomes immaculate. ||4||

you become in a much better state when brought onto a stage with god

Serving the True Guru, pollution is eradicated,

wrongness can be avoided by serving the gurus

and then, one does not suffer death and rebirth, or get devoured by death. ||5||

breaking the cycle of reincarnation

You may study and examine the Shaastras and the Simritees,

but without the Name, no one is liberated. ||6||

you can study religious texts but without god youre not free i think? please clarify

Throughout the four ages, the Naam is the ultimate; reflect upon the Word of the Shabad.

throughout all the ages god has been supreme, so take note of the words of Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, only the Gurmukhs cross over. ||7||

in this modern evil world only those who comply with the guru reach salvation

The True Lord does not die; He does not come or go.

god is immortal, he was never created, he will never cease etc.

O Nanak, the Gurmukh remains absorbed in the Lord. ||8||1||

animatedkhanda1

followers of the guru become at one with god.



Please clarify the parts I did not understand, or have a wrong understanding of, in laymans terms, and then we can discuss the shabad properly.

Thanks

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji, one more thing. Gurus understood the power of NAAD/SOUND/VIBRATION and employed a RAGA(indian classical tunes/alchemical formulas) to every shabad. This way you get to

1)cognitively or analiticaly understand the message
2)emotionaly or intuivly feel the message thorugh the specific RAGA.

So this beutiful shabbad i posted above is only doing half of its effect if it is only READ. This shabbad should be accompanied by the RAGA and sung to have its full affect on youre soul.

I can't read punjabi or gurmukhi, and I will probably mispronounce if I just go off the english spelling of the gurmukhi so unfortunately I cannot do your experiment in a fair way. Maybe if I heard some audio I could try?

Also i read something about science , not sure if you where advocating this but either ways. Science is a bloody joke and only measures the universe according to our 5 senses. This is great for understanding and controling small aspects of the universe(build a damn, harness electricity) but when you are trying to use science to asnwer the great mysterious of the universe it is like mowing the lawn with scissors.

That goes back to the point I just made

Human logic/intelligence is the only tool we have to distinguish the right from wrong and evil from the good.

Without it we could not tell apart a charlatan/impostor from a true guru/messenger of God. There's been many impostors claiming to be prophets/sent from god every year. How do we know they are not telling the truth and that the Gurus were? We must use our intelligence/logic. The same imperfect and fallible intelligence that cannot comprehend god. Do you see my point? It makes no sense to simply say one lacks wisdom if he doesnt accept something as being true.

If we don't apply logic then anyone can use the excuse "you cannot comprehen the true god because it is out of our human realm".

 

[Ishna]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

actually I believe it is our conscience which tells us right from wrong. Also we have intuition. You can't come at spirituality using only half your brain.

Ishna

I can't read punjabi or gurmukhi, and I will probably mispronounce if I just go off the english spelling of the gurmukhi so unfortunately I cannot do your experiment in a fair way. Maybe if I heard some audio I could try?




That goes back to the point I just made

Human logic/intelligence is the only tool we have to distinguish the right from wrong and evil from the good.

Without it we could not tell apart a charlatan/impostor from a true guru/messenger of God. There's been many impostors claiming to be prophets/sent from god every year. How do we know they are not telling the truth and that the Gurus were? We must use our intelligence/logic. The same imperfect and fallible intelligence that cannot comprehend god. Do you see my point? It makes no sense to simply say one lacks wisdom if he doesnt accept something as being true.

If we don't apply logic then anyone can use the excuse "you cannot comprehen the true god because it is out of our human realm".

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji, For me Sikhism provides a cure to all suffering. That's right, ALL suffering. It is quite simple to grasp the general idea of it, yet it gets very difficult when you delve into the details and the practice of it. The spirituality in Sikhism is focused on one's ego and creating sangats to help each other break down this ego. Ego is manifested in the 5 "vices", it shows its ugly face through these: greed, pride, anger, etc. Once you have reached God, and by that I mean once you have broken down your ego, you will start seeing oneness. You will start seeing the BIG picture of the world, you will feel a sense of unity. These words are not enough to describe this indescribable experience it can only be felt, it can only be experienced. Once you experience it you will no longer doubt that experience. But in order to get there you need to believe (have some belief) that it is indeed possible.

Hello.

To be clear on what you're saying, are suggesting that a period of blind faith, will result in an experience which will make one believe that there actually is a god? I get that impression since you say one will only know when he reaches a point of enlightenment, which requires prayer etc to get to in the first place.

And I do agree controlling the 5 vices make sense.

We do things to makes us happy. We take part in pleasures like eating delicious foods, enjoying company, watching TV, reading a good book, etc. After performing these tasks, you feel good for about an hour. You go back, and repeat this. Again, you feel good for about an hour. You go back and repeat this. You feel good about yourself yet again, however, you find yourself seeking out these same things over and over and over. You may even look for something new to do, yet you find yourself going back to it and repeating it. In our daily life, we constantly reiterate these things to keep us well and happy.
Do you realize that this is the dumbest thing ever!?! Think about it. If you are solving a solution to a math problem you have never seen ,and you've tried about 5 different ways of solving it. Once you solve using those 5 ways, you go back and repeat... doesn't work, you go back and repeat yet again... and again and again... until you are dead...sad...:motherlylove:

There was only one thing to do for the people who realized how stupid this was! They tried a simple experiment and isolated themselves from these things. They would go in to an isolated cave or in the middle of a desert, when they would not be inclined to repeat their old habits of simply repeating **** over and over. There they started to uncover secrets of happiness, they started to uncover the solution to the end of suffering. They found that there is an alternative source of happiness that is not contingent upon having friends or family around, or always having that promotion you wanted. They found that this alternative source of happiness is limitless, you can draw as much as you want and it never runs out. It is beyond anyone's grasp, beyond anyone's understanding or capacity to understand. "It is there, if only you believe us", they said, "we have some idea of how to get there."

Over many more centuries, you have many developments in this field, especially in the East... by humans just like us...

Fast forward this development to the time of the Gurus. This was during the rise of the Bhakti Movement, more can be found here: http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhakti.html and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhakti_movement

The developments in that search for happiness had developed to the point where one did not need isolate them from the world. Spiritual practices were being included as part of daily life by many intelligent saints. In fact, practices like social service was being preached by great saints of this 'marg' like Bhagat Kabir, Sheikh Farid, etc. Social service, where the mind is focused on the service and the humility of such service, was a great for diminishing the ego (see the very beginning of this reply). This applied to all practices.

Being able to stay happy whilst in isolation in a cave for a long period of time is impressive (or it could be a sign of mental illness, I'm not saying that is the case but so far I cannot rule that out). Either way when one has time to think, such as when in prison, it is not an amazing feat or spiritual moment for them to have thoughts arise which did not arise previously.

Also you must consider that a lot of people are happy anyway and not suffering, and do not require any sort of epiphany or awakening to stay/be happy.

With regards to the social services, humans are social creatures, and naturally many take pleasure from helping others. So I don't think this can explain anything spiritual.

Sikhism in its spirituality and social relations is heavily influenced by the Bhakti movement. However, unlike other Bhakti preachers, Gurus were keen on making their ideals being put into practice rather than remain mostly in theory, and with one man Guru Nanak, Sikhism had began to develop into a religion in its own right, covering not only spirituality and social services but also the field of politics and military. The latter two turned out to be more important than estimated (if ever considered) by the previous saints of the Bhakti movement. However Gurus were quick to prepare for them. These aspects (of Sikhism) became essential when it came to protecting the spiritual and social system (of Sikhism). The Mughals in order to protect their own power, started to undermine the power of those gaining power including the Sikh Gurus, Maratha Kings. Knowledge of politics and military, and learning to defeat their tyrannical government both politcally and through use of arms and armour became necessary. ....Thus Sikhism developed into a complete system that it is today. (in a nutshell)

I agree that there are great things to take from Sikhi, some great principles and wise words, however I still do not see the connection to god, as like I said the gurus could've just wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ to control people (for a good cause perhaps).

You asked "why Sikhism?" This is why Sikhism.
Unlike the Western system which is focused on individual material gain, power and control (it sees only itself in every other system)... Sikhism is the latest "technology" of the development of systems of well-being; it is focused around individual and universal well-being. It brings into play politics and military if it needs to defend this well being.

Cheers

It very well may do, but all of that can be achieved without following Sikhi in my opinion. E.g. living by morals.

Thanks

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji,
I am only going to comment on 2 points at this stage.
1) Alcohol is a mind altering substance, there is no denying this fact. That is why people like taking it. I have heard the moderation argument by so many people trying to justify themselves but it doesn't hold so if you want to drink accept it for what it is. Even 1 drink will change you (maybe not dramatically). Also there are some situations where 1 drink is enough to know someone over the edge, eg on empty stomach, when feeling down, and it is not always predictable when this would happen. If this wasn't the case why would some countries have zero limit for driving and why do health professionals have zero tolerance to alcohol in work? The choice is yours-drugs controlling your mind or you retaining full control at all times. So I stick by what I said about not drinking being empowering.

Alcohol in moderation can be good for you, for example red wine can relax the blood vessels allowing the heart to work less hard pumping blood.

Its bad for you when taken in excess but so are a lot of other things in life.

You also shouldn't operate heavy machinery after taking some medicine but that doesn't mean it is bad for you, a responsible individual will be fine.

It is banned at most work places because it can easily be misused, and taken in excess, not to mention religious considerations of others.

2) Japji is very deep, beautiful and meaningful. You are only scratching the surface. In my gurmat classes we spend 40 minutes each week discussing 1 pauri!! It's like me knowing only high school genetics and asking whats the point of studying it. Try reading through some things here to get you started http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/
Here is an essay I wrote a while ago which will also give you food for thought http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33504-blind-faith-in-sikhism-is-possible.html

In school, university etc, you don't expect to spoon fed as you learn less and are less engaged. The same applies here.

If you think my analysis of those paurees are wrong, it would be better for you to explain why than to just send me links of articles and essays, especially since I am going through the SGGSJ pauree by pauree analysing it, which isnt me trying to be spoon fed. I could read the paurees I have just studied loads more times, and still reach the same conclusion.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Reasons why I like Sikhism:

1) I like the idea of God being in everyone.
2) I like the idea that in order to realise that God you must control Krodh, Kam, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar
3) I like the idea of heaven and hell not being actual places but about those who dwell in self and unselfishly.
4) I like the idea there is no classic fight between good and evil, but that everyone is capable of being good or evil my resorting to self.
5) I like the idea of Munmukh (Self willed) and Munmook (God willed)
6) I like the fact that God is just seen as the creator of the laws of nature and we are free to operate within them, either for good or bad (it is up to us)

I could go on.

Do I think Sikhism is right? Well its right for me, can't say whether it is right for you.

I understand your reasons for liking Sikhism, some of them I share.

my first post in this thread could have been more clear, a better question would have been-

what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?

 

[Archived_member14]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji,

I understand your reasons for liking Sikhism, some of them I share.

my first post in this thread could have been more clear, a better question would have been-

what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?

I still do not see why you should arrive at this conclusion. I’ve not commented so far because I’m not a Sikh and I do not believe in God, any version of it. But at no time has such a conclusion ever been necessitated, for example that Guru Nanak taught what he did with the intention to control people!?

Is it perhaps that you had previously come to the kind of conclusion in considering religions such as Christianity and Islam and now you approach Sikh with some preconceived ideas?

Below are some points you might like to consider. I do not know the facts, but it should not matter if I misrepresent and misinterpret what actually took place. Since the main point I want to make is that people are inspired and like to share their knowledge and understandings:

-Guru Nanak experienced what may be called “God-consciousness”.
-The impression was of coming to have knowledge and understanding, including a perspective regarding good and evil not seen before, which could only come from the experience of such a state.
-One could therefore say that the knowledge was given by God.
-There is a sense of gratitude associated with this.
-This is expressed by way of praise for the source of such knowledge, namely God.
-Sometimes this praise comes in the form of extoling God in terms of his power.
-Sometimes the praise is toward ethical qualities.
-Practices are prescribed whereby others could also have the same experience.
-But not everyone will be able to achieve this. For them, suggestions aimed at living a reasonably moral life have been given.

Do you think sharing knowledge is in fact an expression of intention to ‘control people’? Would you consider generosity with regard to material objects also the same way?

 

[Ishna]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

To my knowledge, the Gurus never forced anyone to do anything, therefore they were not controlling anyone. They weren't commanding people to convert and threatening them with death if they didn't. They didn't order people to do something one way and punish them if they didn't comply.

Please give me an example of where you think any Guru was intending to control people.

I understand many other religions are controlling. They threaten people with Hell if they don't obey. They kill them, ostracise them, excommunicate them from their families, take their children away from them, etcetc. They manipulate people of lesser intellect through fear. Our Guru's endeavoured to release people from the fear the Brahmins were controlling them with.

Judgement of the Guru's levels of spirituality is subjective. I think Kahlil Gibran is spiritual, I think the Tao Te Ching is spiritual, I enjoy their poetry and symbolism. I don't like the Dalai Lama's work, I don't find it spiritually satisfying. Someone else here might be exactly the opposite. See how it is subjective? If you don't find the Guru's work spiritually uplifing, then you don't. If you don't like chocolate gelati, then you don't. If you don't like the Mona Lisa, then you don't. Plenty of other people think they're AWESOME.

Ishna

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dear Shangar Ji

I don't want to go off topic and it is probably better if you engage in a little research and learning. To that end, just Google the experiment where physicists proved the simulateneous existence of a particle in 2 places at once........how can something be in 2 places at once? Logical?? I think not!

Ok I've looked it up, the double-slit experiment yeah?
I watched this vid on it YouTube - Dr Quantum - Double Slit Experiment

it is completely mind-boggling, but tht doesnt mean tht there isnt a possibility tht theres a logical answer.

Lack of a unified theory does not necessarily indicate tht theres no possible explanation right?

I can't remember who said it, but back in the olden days, wild wild west times, one person said that the world would not advance much more technology wise, and look how far it has come since the cowboy days, there is still time.

If you read a bit more about the workings of the Universe at the Quantum state, you will hopefully appreciate there is no logic to explain behaviour at this level

As for the Big bang stuff, I'm not sure why the Big Bang explanation and the existence of God are mutually exclusive? In fact, you may be aware that teh Vatican officially endorsed this theory as in their mind, it left plenty of room for a Creator

I don't deny the possibility that a god created the big bang, I'm just saying that if that was the case I would expect it to be explained in the SGGSJ

That aside, I am sure you are aware that the concept of God in Sikhism is very different from the bearded patriarch in the Abrahamic faiths....in Sikhism, the Universe and God are one....so a cyclical universe that has always existed is absolutely fine

Yeah I'm aware & I can accept that there is a possibility of there being a cyclical universe tht god made, I would just like proof of that.

Now a couple more questions for you..

1) If you are looking for supernatural evidence to prove Scriptures are not man made, I guess you will believe in the divine authenticity of the Ten Commandments which God inscribed with his fiery finger on Mount Sinai? Or are you insisting on seeing a miracle yourself now with your own eyes before you are prepared to accept anything?

Like I said I am lookin for something along the lines of-


I would like some amazing knowledge, for example something that no one could have possibly known at that time.
Or an explanation of how the world was made.
Or maybe an incredible prediction for the future that no one could have possibly guessed, something along those lines.

The fact that the earth exists, or that religious text claims that there is a god, is not enough proof for me of their being a god.

2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...in fact, there are many Quantum Physicists who believe in God and have a greater appreciation of the Creation through QP

the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim of the existence of something. like i said before, if i say a gigantic lion rules the world from outerspace millions of galaxies away, and then I say prove it. This is not fair as you cannot do that.

i can give my reasons for not believing in god at a later time (or separate thread) so that theres not too many discussions in this one.

You have asked us to explain why we believe what we do and all the replies have been thorough and true.

maybe things would be clearer if i also ask you-
what is it about GGSJ, that makes you believe that the Gurus were men of god who had high levels of spirituality, and were not just intelligent men who wanted to control people, whether for a good cause or not?

because so far I have only been told that people read SGGSJ and become enlightened, and tht if i dont feel it i am not ready. i could write my own book and say the same thing.

I am now asking you to do some explaining and prove to us that God does not exist.....ultimately I think we will find it comes down to personal choice...you either choose to believe or you don't.............
:blueturban:

as i just said the burden should be on the person claiming the existence, but i can give my reasons in another thread somewhere.

 

[Shanger]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

To my knowledge, the Gurus never forced anyone to do anything, therefore they were not controlling anyone. They weren't commanding people to convert and threatening them with death if they didn't. They didn't order people to do something one way and punish them if they didn't comply.

Please give me an example of where you think any Guru was intending to control people.

I understand many other religions are controlling. They threaten people with Hell if they don't obey. They kill them, ostracise them, excommunicate them from their families, take their children away from them, etcetc. They manipulate people of lesser intellect through fear. Our Guru's endeavoured to release people from the fear the Brahmins were controlling them with.

Judgement of the Guru's levels of spirituality is subjective. I think Kahlil Gibran is spiritual, I think the Tao Te Ching is spiritual, I enjoy their poetry and symbolism. I don't like the Dalai Lama's work, I don't find it spiritually satisfying. Someone else here might be exactly the opposite. See how it is subjective? If you don't find the Guru's work spiritually uplifing, then you don't. If you don't like chocolate gelati, then you don't. If you don't like the Mona Lisa, then you don't. Plenty of other people think they're AWESOME.

Ishna

I'm going bed now but I'll answer this before I go then get back to where I left off.

examples of the gurus controlling people

forbidding halal meat and alcohol, telling people that they must pray to reach salvation. those who do not pray are looked down upon.

The 5Ks

which ever way u look at it, that is controlling people. There are threats of being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation if one does not comply. Many of the instructions may be for a good cause, but tht doesnt change the fact tht theyre being controlled and made to live a certain way.

 

[Ishna]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger, I don't believe the examples you gave fit the definition of "controlling". Controlling is forcibly enforcing the rules. The Guru's to my knowledge never did that. They gave recommendations, people are free to choose or not choose. They also explain the consequenses of each choice.

And I also realise my question was asked/answered earlier in the thread, whoops.

So, prove to me where the Gurus were controlling people, not just giving advice.

And watch me deny it, just as you deny all our explanations. You will not be satisfied.

Ishna

 

[Ishna]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Also, you've contradicted yourself, I highlight in bold red:

But it still happened right? Then I'm asking whether Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ refers to it, and how so.


Can I ask you- what is it about Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ that makes you believe that it was not created by intelligent men with no special level of spirituality to control people (for a good cause perhaps)?

I'm not an atheist.

Maybe miracle is a strong word, but something special to show the religious scripture is valid is surely not an unreasonably request?
What kind of things maybe sikhi stand out from the crowd? - & I don't just mean the differences (like there are man paths to god etc) I mean in terms of it not being a farce.

Thanks for replies

The fact that the earth exists, or that religious text claims that there is a god, is not enough proof for me of their being a god.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" width=""> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> 2) I'm not saying you are an Atheist but just to make a point, the common Atheist argument about a lack of empirical proof about the existence of God is to my mind pointless as there is no empirical proof for the non-existence of God either! And please don't quote Quantum Physics as an answer as I think I have already explained that QP does not prove the non-existence of God...in fact, there are many Quantum Physicists who believe in God and have a greater appreciation of the Creation through QP </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
the burden of proof should lie on the person making the claim of the existence of something. like i said before, if i say a gigantic lion rules the world from outerspace millions of galaxies away, and then I say prove it. This is not fair as you cannot do that.

i can give my reasons for not believing in god at a later time (or separate thread) so that theres not too many discussions in this one.

So which one is it, Shanger? It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

a·the·ist –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

You already know you don't like strawberries, we can't talk you into liking them.

Ishna

 

[Archived_member14]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Shanger ji,

I'm going bed now but I'll answer this before I go then get back to where I left off.

examples of the gurus controlling people

forbidding halal meat and alcohol, telling people that they must pray to reach salvation. those who do not pray are looked down upon.

The 5Ks

which ever way u look at it, that is controlling people. There are threats of being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation if one does not comply. Many of the instructions may be for a good cause, but tht doesnt change the fact tht theyre being controlled and made to live a certain way.

Again I don’t know the details and who said what. I don’t believe in any rules except when it comes to social matters involving groups of people and their living together. But when it is about what in the end comes down to “knowing oneself as one is”, rules are misleading and can only be inhibiting.

The rule about the 5ks must in fact be a social one, although even here, I see no sense of it at all. But I think you’d need to separate this from the other consideration.

Not eating halal meat is another rule which does not make any sense to me. One could emphasize on the wrongness of torture while understanding that meat is just meat. But again, the intention may be more to highlight cruelty, could it not?

Alcohol can sometimes be taken as medicine, but only if no other alternative exists. Otherwise it is harmful for sure. And there is never a good reason to drink it even a little, especially given that it leads to lapse in moral behavior. Besides it is habit forming and there is no telling if anyone will increase his intake. So isn’t it good advice to warn against consuming it? And why must anyone take such advice to be in fact a commandment? I don’t think it was meant to be as such.

Praying is another thing I don’t believe in, for obvious reasons. But again here, can’t this be seen as a prescribed practice aimed at a particular result for the good of those who follow? And looking down on those who do not follow, must this be seen as finger pointing? Could it not be interpreted as simply showing the harm of not following the path of the good?

And being stuck in the cycle of existence, you may not agree with any of this. But the basic principle is that as long as there is no realization, one would be driven by states which lead to repeatedly being reborn again and again. So again, why must it be seen as an attempt to control? Why can’t it be seen as reminder about the harm of evil states?

I wonder if you come in from a philosophy which professes that people should be allowed to learn from experience, believing that they must surely learn how to find gratification if left alone?
And I wonder if you are trying to control anyone in trying to point this out. ;-)

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

I'm going bed now but I'll answer this before I go then get back to where I left off.

examples of the gurus controlling people

forbidding halal meat and alcohol, telling people that they must pray to reach salvation. those who do not pray are looked down upon.

The 5Ks

which ever way u look at it, that is controlling people. There are threats of being stuck in the cycle of reincarnation if one does not comply. Many of the instructions may be for a good cause, but tht doesnt change the fact tht theyre being controlled and made to live a certain way.

No Sikh Guru ever forbade, scorned, ordered the 5 k's, threatened anyone with anything, or made people to live a certain way. Granted this kind of behavior is common among babas and ammas running an ashram or heading of a sect here and there around the world. But in the SGGS, our only guru, are the voices of Sikh Gurus, Bhagats and Bhatts, and none of them stand guilty of blaming, shaming, controlling. And that takes us back to the paurees of Japuji that you posted -- which you have not yet explored with us sincerely. So you must be confusing what you have seen and heard with what is actually there. You are looking at a lot of work ahead of you if you really want to understand.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

I am a simple man. What i dont understand is the BIBLE proclaims as loudly as it possibly cna that its the WORD of GOD...why people have a tendency to "doubt" that ?? Lots of Miracles, supernatural happenings, waking the dead, turning water into wine etc etc also performed..Immaculate Conception is a ONE OFF occurence ..still people DOUBT..

The KORAN says the exact same things as the Bible does...still many people DOUBT that too...

So whats it that will really and truly CONVINCE each living soul on this planet ??...create a really doubtfre environment...hallelujah ??

People look at the Bible..doubt it..and then ask..how about the SGGS ?? does it lay the same claims as the Bible ?? the Koran ?/ if NOT why NOT ?? I say who CARES. Live ones life as best as one can.....Guur Nnak ji never lay any claims to anything...neother do the other 33 + contributors of the SGGS...what they ALL do is that they do tell us in no uncertain terms HOW THEY EXPERIENCED the CREATOR..the ULTIMATE...JOYS..and tell us all HOW to experience the same JOYS...as best as they can..and its up to us to listen or ignore..no compulsion.

 

[Seeker9]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Dear Shangar Ji

It does look like our roles have reversed as now you appear to be the one expressing blind faith ... in logic

Their is scientific evidence to backup QP yet you still want to hold out for a future logical explanation.

Interesting isn't it???

 

[jnanavan]

Re: Why Do You Think That Sikhism Is Right/From God?

Yeah I'm aware & I can accept that there is a possibility of there being a cyclical universe tht god made, I would just like proof of that.

Look at youre watch or a clock, what is the shape of the instrument we use to measure time?

The strongest shape/form in engineering is a circle or a sphere. This is why we use round tires on cars and even tanks. Hold a egg in youre palm and try to crush it with youre whole hand and you will NOT be able too.

Look at the shape of the planets, round/spheres. Look at the way the planets travel around the sun(circular).

Look at the seasons of the year spring,summer,winter,autumn then it repeats again and again year after year, and ENDLESS cycle.

Look at how rain forms, gathers h20 from the sea, collects in a cloud, cloud travels dumps water in the ground, from the ground water finds its way back into the ocean.

Human logic/intelligence is the only tool we have to distinguish the right from wrong and evil from the good.

This is why i said you lack wisdom AND knowledge, not saying it to offend you but its obvious to me you lack basic 101's in eastern philosophy and ancient western philosophy for the ancients in the west knews almost the same thing that contemporary easterners know.

Human logic is NOT the only tool we have to distinguish from evil and good, the mind/intellect is an INFERIOR tool compared to the higher faculties which we have such as intuition/consciousness/awareness. The greeks knews about these higher faculties, the pre abrahamic middle eastern peoples knew this(kabbalah) and so did the whole ancient world.

I accept the information about the sounds in space, but I think that it is too far-fetched to immediately associate that to the meaning of Ek-Ongkar, if you are suggesting that the Gurus were intentionally referring to the celestial orchestra, surely you would need something else more clearer/precise said since you claim it as proof that god exists?

You are completely missing out on the information that i presented to you and projecting youre skepticism unnecasarily. The whole point of my post was that of SOUND/VIBRATION/HARMONY/OMGKAR/GOD/UNIVERSE. You clearly missed the big picture which is that the universe is governed by hamonic principles to the extent that each planet is even emmiting harmonic tones and all the planets together form an orchestra. If the planets and the universe are governed by harmonic principles, is it not plausible even for a skeptic that the "creating force" itself might some sort of ultimate harmonic priciple?

There have been some very good replies and responses here yet you are rejecting most of them and not understanding them. I see a viscious circle going on within this thread.