Respected Bhain Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji
It is sad that you are about to beak away from Sikhism as gradually you have searched out that it is not the only faith for Mukti. Neither ever I believed so; however, I feel more comfortable with Guru teaching and never intent as many do to put it in my kind of box.
Talking about rudeness, they say before blaming others, give a second to ones own behavior. You never showed humbleness or sadness even when I requested you in very humble words to forgive those who have limitations and behaved bad. Making a base of people’s rude behavior, you challenged Sikhism as whole. If I do not mention any other faith’ community, it is your determined attitude to keep asking” aren’t they holy, are they worthless? Is God is only in these Sikhs pocket?” My concern is this that do not trash a religion on the bases of some pseudo believers. If you find, Hinduism is better, they treat you well, or Vashnav are better than Sikhs, it is still in your hand to choose whichever is more benefiting you. People worry about losing number in Sikhism, I don’t because a few are Sikhs any way; the mountainous ego they display, show of anger they stage, show off personal achievements they boast and castes they adore, is clear proof of their naked hypocrisy. Do I support them, no I don’t. Do I disrespect you, Not at all, am I sad on your behavior? Yes I am. Do I have any complain? No I don’t. Do I have anything in my mind against you, not at all. Then why I tried to insert my views while addressing Sinister Ji? I strongly feel that attaching every thing spiritual to scientific laws is funny. Sinister’s intellect fascinated me and I just shared my views with him; he is very rational person, does not intend to insult any one purposefully; reread his all posts, this is his style. Check out where he disagreed with me. May be you just felt he was trying to put you down, that was not the case. You are most welcome here, please do not hope we shall swallow all you throw on us, as I don’t hope the same; to be disagreed is right of all of us. I felt, last time I debated with you, you bounced from one point to the other without acknowledging what I said before. While doing so you have trashed Punjabi community as whole. I agree, some of them you referred are worse and truly they are as you described but why to bring that in a debate about Sikhism and Vashanav? Personal bad experiences should never make measure to test a faith. In 1984 Sikhs were brutalized and all Hindus were blamed. It was a lie, Hindus wrote against it, they stood by Sikhs, and how any Sikh can blame the all community? It is a shame, we human generalize to trash others to ooze out anger we bottled up over years. I call it unbalanced behavior in prospect of others respect as a whole community. When Muslims were blamed solely for deception, I pointed out, our Punjabis went to Europe, married innocent girls just to betray them, was it fare? No. Our difference in opinion should not negate respect we have for each other. My request is that while in emotional tide you say something which could hurt others a lot. For me it is very hard to see Guru Nanak to be called borrower from other sectarian views. I tolerated as nicely as I could, when it crossed limit, I stopped churning water for butter; I dint complain to MOD; I have my own way, I” just move on”.
After having said all that, I apologize if you are hurt in any way while debating and hope coming out of emotional envelope, you would consider it is very genuine apology. I welcome you with all my heart and never to feel bad about it.
Thanks.
It is sad that you are about to beak away from Sikhism as gradually you have searched out that it is not the only faith for Mukti. Neither ever I believed so; however, I feel more comfortable with Guru teaching and never intent as many do to put it in my kind of box.
Talking about rudeness, they say before blaming others, give a second to ones own behavior. You never showed humbleness or sadness even when I requested you in very humble words to forgive those who have limitations and behaved bad. Making a base of people’s rude behavior, you challenged Sikhism as whole. If I do not mention any other faith’ community, it is your determined attitude to keep asking” aren’t they holy, are they worthless? Is God is only in these Sikhs pocket?” My concern is this that do not trash a religion on the bases of some pseudo believers. If you find, Hinduism is better, they treat you well, or Vashnav are better than Sikhs, it is still in your hand to choose whichever is more benefiting you. People worry about losing number in Sikhism, I don’t because a few are Sikhs any way; the mountainous ego they display, show of anger they stage, show off personal achievements they boast and castes they adore, is clear proof of their naked hypocrisy. Do I support them, no I don’t. Do I disrespect you, Not at all, am I sad on your behavior? Yes I am. Do I have any complain? No I don’t. Do I have anything in my mind against you, not at all. Then why I tried to insert my views while addressing Sinister Ji? I strongly feel that attaching every thing spiritual to scientific laws is funny. Sinister’s intellect fascinated me and I just shared my views with him; he is very rational person, does not intend to insult any one purposefully; reread his all posts, this is his style. Check out where he disagreed with me. May be you just felt he was trying to put you down, that was not the case. You are most welcome here, please do not hope we shall swallow all you throw on us, as I don’t hope the same; to be disagreed is right of all of us. I felt, last time I debated with you, you bounced from one point to the other without acknowledging what I said before. While doing so you have trashed Punjabi community as whole. I agree, some of them you referred are worse and truly they are as you described but why to bring that in a debate about Sikhism and Vashanav? Personal bad experiences should never make measure to test a faith. In 1984 Sikhs were brutalized and all Hindus were blamed. It was a lie, Hindus wrote against it, they stood by Sikhs, and how any Sikh can blame the all community? It is a shame, we human generalize to trash others to ooze out anger we bottled up over years. I call it unbalanced behavior in prospect of others respect as a whole community. When Muslims were blamed solely for deception, I pointed out, our Punjabis went to Europe, married innocent girls just to betray them, was it fare? No. Our difference in opinion should not negate respect we have for each other. My request is that while in emotional tide you say something which could hurt others a lot. For me it is very hard to see Guru Nanak to be called borrower from other sectarian views. I tolerated as nicely as I could, when it crossed limit, I stopped churning water for butter; I dint complain to MOD; I have my own way, I” just move on”.
After having said all that, I apologize if you are hurt in any way while debating and hope coming out of emotional envelope, you would consider it is very genuine apology. I welcome you with all my heart and never to feel bad about it.
Thanks.
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I am not about to break away from Sikhism. I believe 100% in Gurbani. I believe in my Guruji. I just do not believe in my satsangat. And this has to do with private matters not for public discussion, but I cannot in any sense of conscience be supportive of these type of customary practices, or some things generally accepted within Sikhism today.
It is not the only path of mukti, but it is my path, just not in the organized religion conventional sense. I no longer have the constraint not to voice opinion to positions which would be condemned harshly by those who practice by a stricter definition. I am free.
Veer ji, you followed nearly every single post of mine with line by line contradictions for weeks. That is not an appropriate disagreement. That is a form of personal harassment of a viewpoint you could not tolerate. Moreover, in so many places you were frankly insulting to me personally as a convert, as a non-Punjabi speaker, as someone from a different philosophical and religious background all in efforts to discredit my interpretations. Where did you request in humble words anything in this present post, where I am asking Sinister Ji not to be mocking and insulting and being rude? And if not, why would you stretch some past post from several weeks ago to apply to this current situation? Why should I show you sadness and humblessness veer ji when you are writing that someone being mocking is hilarious and I am full of sludge of ego?
I am not challenging Sikhism. I believe in Sikhism. I am challenging Sikhs as a whole, because outrageously unwelcoming behaviour, casteism, intolerance of converts, and not to mention so many other outrageous things is driving people out of this religion. And then to come to a religious discussion forum to be made fun of, attacked on persohnal qualities, accused of sludge of ego and arrogance is just ridiculous. This isn't a discussion forum. It's a flaming forum to demonstrate incredible intolerance. And these kind of behaviors are so pervasive, and so acceptable, that I'm addressing it because it's also occurring here.
On the concept of forgiveness, when someone is taking positive delight in rude comments directed to me in a demeaning way, why should I show you humbleness and sadness? Did you say sorry? Did Sinister ji say sorry? And as to the issue which have really pushed me out of the box, I can't even speak about it. And even when I indicate such has occurred, you continue to try to blame me? Even the ordinary manmukh person would at least say, "I'm sorry you had a bad experience." Who in their right mind says I need more humbleness and sadness and forgiveness to tolerate abuses I wouldn't even speak of?
I am not the only person to mention serious problems with how the Punjabi community treats converts to this religion, and it remains a serious issue that deserves honest discussion. I am not trashing Sikh religion to open this discussion, and Sikh believers who are so certain of their rightness while ignoring or defending the worst behaviors in Gurdwara are in fact pushing people away. Any spiritual philosophy which presumes only Sikh people have the boat of mukti in the kaliyug has to be a gross mistranslation, because I don't think any honest person could have that opinion based on example.
Hinduism has the same problems Sikhism has, or any religion for that matter. I made reference to Hindu forums, where discussions don't tolerate flaming and personal attacks or have intolerance of alternate viewpoints or interpretations.
As to personal interpretation, I believe Sikh religion originates from a particular school of Hindu philosophy and that modernly the Sikh community has been estranged from it. So I think saying I should go off and consider Hindu religion is completely innaccurate as I take these beliefs with me no matter what anyone chooses to call it, and these beliefs are all grounded in Gurbani teaching. Majority of Punjabis do not consider me a Sikh anyway since I'm not Punjabi, so it does not make a difference what people call me or think I am.
Sikhism is small for a reason. In general, as a cultural community, Sikhs don't welcome anybody, let alone have any outreach. And after, what, 8 years? I have to say I have seen this community chase away more sincere people than I care to count. But as you said, the community is not the religion, and this is why I qualified that I nearly left this religion. I believe in the religion. I just can't keep ignoring certain behaviors which are standard norm in most Sikh communities and pretend it's spiritual. I mean, that just makes me a part of the worst behaviors, by collusion and show of tolerance and acceptance of bad things. So I have stepped very deliberately away from my Sikh community while still valuing and believing in Sikh religion. This is not to say every Sikh community is like this. But seriously these are some long-standing and entrenched issues and situations and everybody knows about them. It should matter to you, because it isn't just converts who are leaving Sikhism. It's your Sikh children too.
Somehow personal attacks and mocking of a person to make them look like an idiot is not funny to me. Never have I done that to anyone on this forum. I most certainly have never done that to you. And in certain posts where you did feel offended by another person, I did not chime in to praise them for knocking you down as a person. Think about it.
Do I feel welcome? Please! I'm like one of the most deleted, warned and marginalized people who post here. Not to mention having so many personal attacks and put downs with nearly every post. So let's not pretend any sincerity about "welcome."
I'm not trashing Punjabi commnity. I'm pointing out how marginalized I am within Punjabi community and sad experiences I have been a part of, when answering your objection I could not have appropriate understanding enough to correctly interpret Gurbani without being a native and fluent Punjabi speaker. I proved, and you acknowledge it is truth, that a large portion of the respected and powerful "religious" fluent Punjabi Sikh population has terrible behavior and certainly no real spiritual knowledge. So fluency alone cannot possibly be a spiritual criteria for understanding Gurbani. I happen to believe fluency in Punjabi is important. And I say all my paath in Punjabi. But everyone approaches Vaheguru where they are at. And Gurbani is very easy and plain to understand because Guruji is speaking to a person. Never have I said that education or skill was important to understanding Gurbani, never have I said to you, as you have said to me, "You are completely wrong! You don't know anything about Gurbani! You disrespect Guru by having an opinion which I can't tolerate and feel I have to discredit and attack line by line. I cannot even just voice an objection and make a new post sharing why I believe differently, but have to discredit everything YOU as a person, say." Did I go on personal campaign against your opinions like this veer ji?
What if I am wrong? Is the sky going to fall? What if the strictest of the strict and most hypocritical bunch you could find were actually the most correct? Would they have a boat of mukti in spite of being a terible personal example? So, this is an issue where we should acknowledge tolerance of differences are not going to hurt anything. And too much narrowness is killing us. We need more maturity and tolerance. It's not so important what people believe. Isn't it something sweet that people even have a belief they want to share? Right, or wrong, like children that we should encourage?
I agree, looking back over the "second hand information" I was being taught by Punjabi Sikhs, much of it is really not even spiritual. Much of it, I feel, is based on mistranslation of Gurbani and deliberate distortion of Hindu teaching. This whole idea of Sikhism as defined by these prejudicial standards as being the only boat of mukti, and some justification for disrespecting every other faith as invalid is just immature and not an authentic spiritual belief. And as I said, I have distanced myself completely from those positions and from any association of any Jatha within Sikhism. I have certainly, while supporting the victims of injustices which led to 1978, 1984 massacres, Delhi riots and gallughara no longer support any kind of Khalistan. I also support anybody not just issues of importance to Punjabi Sikh community. Everyone is important, because everyone has jyot of the All-pervading One Beloved. So we should be defenders of human rights, not narrowly only defending Sikh rights, or Sikh victims. And that includes sympathy and saying ardas for families and victims of Sikh militants, and most likely Air India 192. I accept the Courts declaration of innocence at the trial, but I also acknowledge the facts of the case are cloudy and remain a cloud of suspicion. Nothing has convinced me more of this than the anti-Hindu attitudes and support for terrorizing the Indian state which has been verbalized to me directly over time. This world needs peace. This world needs spiritual maturity. This world needs tolerance and authentic acceptance. Casteism, favoritism, brahminism, elitism, ethnocentrism, racism, all that has got to end, before it ends us as a species, before these petty prejudices and hatreds defile our world as they defile our souls. It has got to end if there is ever going to be a Satyug or spiritual renewal. The truth is, we need to welcome and love everybody. This sense of special identity, special worthiness is killing our spirituality. Too many are supporting wrong things, wrong causes, wrong behaviors, in name of exclusivity of Sikh religion.
If I own a store, and you come into my store. And you don't speak good English. (Let's say we're in America). And you buy some items and are waiting to pay for them.
If I decide I don't like your turban, and your brown skin (I'm brown as you are by the way, but for example). And I decide to make you have a bad day out of spite. And I start calling you cruel things and humiliating you in front of others, and then laughing. If I make you nervous and you put the wrong amount of money on the table. And if I mock you as if you were a stupid and worthless person.
Would you come back to my store? You would not. Because the behavior would be unacceptable to anyone's dignity. We have to look at our religious communities to see how people are really being treated, really being excluded, really being marginalized and ignored or even wished would go away before we can say bad experiences should never be a measure to test faith.
As I entered Sikhism through the Khalistani community I know this situation well. And as you acknowledge, there is a completely unbalanced world-view which is flagrantly abusive towards Hindus. There is a segment of this community which justifies the Air India disaster as an appropriate act, whether or not Babbar Khalsa was responsible for it. And I do see the human side of it. I know people who were in the Delhi riots and Punjab jails during the galughara. I know people who were tortured and still walk with a limp. And I have been for a few years part of the community that calls a certain person associated with Air India 192, "uncleji." As you said, "It is a shame, we human generalize to trash others to ooze out anger we bottled up over years. I call it unbalanced behavior in prospect of others respect as a whole community."
There can be no spiritual justification or philosophy of mukti within a context of murder of innocents. We cannot afford as a world to be so ethnocentric as to praise wrong and blame innocents, whether it is Rajiv Gandhi, or Sikh Militants, or jihadis. Wrong is wrong, and right is right, and our spiritual philosophies should have integrity. No one should be justifying the killing of anyone. However, in the case of oppressive tyrants and protecting people from harm, this is dharmically justified. The assassination of Indira Gandhi is justified. But a culture which praises militants in general, and machine guns and creating apprehension and insecurity in the Indian state is idiocy. It is no spirituality at all.
But veer ji, these are all political events. I am talking about my personal experiences as a convert who is marginalized in Gurdwaras and on Sikh philosophy discussion forums. The context is not the same.
You say our difference of opinion should not negate our respect for each other. Yet you are the one constantly arguing against, belittling and condemning my opinions line by line on almost every single post for weeks now. I mean, go ahead and have a separate opinion, but why wage an attack on mine? You are the one voicing the opinion that only a native Punjabi speaker can understand the spiritual metaphors. You are the one saying Vedas are worthless to a Sikh and then mocking they are my "favorites" and making several allusions to my not being a good Sikh, or even not being a Sikh.
And how is that? By saying there is hypocrisy and abuse and manipulation and rejection in the "religious" Sikh community? Do you not also admit it is the truth? So if we are discussing spiritual concepts and how Punjabiyat within the Sikh community is isolating converts and deliberately belittling them or leaving them vulnerable to abuses such as you mentioned with false marriages and fake relationships of which I know all too well, how am I the one hurting others a lot just to speak of these things?
But you didn't move on. You're over here on this post knocking me down as a person. And that is why we are having this discussion. Think for a moment. Do you consider yourself the defender of Guru Nanak Dev Ji? If someone speaks an opinion contrary to your own about Guruji, and I don't mean rudeness against Guru, but different interpretation, you can't tolerate? Will you now go and smash Hindu idols because you can't tolerate? Will you make Naamdharis and Nirmalas and Nihangs and 3HO unwelcome because you can't tolerate? If the One God is pervading in everybody, we need to let the One God change the hearts and minds of people. Our job is to be good. Our job is to be welcoming and kind and tolerant and loving, as we worship the One that is pervading in the other. For the record, I didn't say Guruji was a borrower. I said Guruji is Sargun God. I said Guruji is an avtaara, meaning He is the same person who wrote the Bhagavad-Gita, and that's why I believe Sikh teaching parallels these older teachings. Sikhism is definitely derived from Vedas and Upanishads. But not because Guruji is inferior in any way. Guru is Guru. All truth past, present and future belongs to Guru. Everything that is wise and beautiful and good in older scriptures is a part of Guru. Guru is the sound current of the Naad. Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas.
So I'm giving an example where it might be more mature to live and let live. If you held your breath until Naamdharis and Radhasoamis and deras disappeared, you would be long dead and they would still be here with those same intolerable opinions. So being intolerant changes nothing. It just creates conflict and bad attitudes. And people's kids pick up these attitudes and that's why you hear so many negative things about Hindu religion and Hindu idols spoken with so much hostility. And these kinds of attitudes spill over into any kind of discussion about Gurbani. People tolerate different opinions, but they don't tolerate hearing about similarities with Hinduism.
If you have a teenager, and your teenager cuts his hair and starts dating a white Christian girl, are you going to cross a limit of tolerance and throw him away? And what if, after awhile, on his own, he decides this isn't a good path and turns himself around to become amritdhari. You see what I'm saying about how people interfere with God and try to force a religious opinion in a rejecting way, and then they lose their kids? And maybe if they just had peace and tolerance, which is a fruit of spiritual practice, their kids would probably have turned out just fine WITHOUT all the hatred and rejection and hostility. So think about your reaction to people, because their are all kinds of different people in this world, and nobody is really going to have the exact same understanding you have. Do you think Guruji is some wrathful, vengeful, offended, rejecting, punishing Guru? Do you think Guruji has a limit past which an offending person can cross and be damned?
Why can't people be honest about their experiences, opinions and beliefs? A lot of people are having terrible experiences, and they can't even get the support of "religious" Sikh community who still find a way to blame the person and justify the wrongdoing of their own "Punjabi" friend. This has got to stop. It's as bad as Brahminism. Seriously, my community has tried to arrange 4 fake marriages for me. In 3, the fellow was already married. You know, the situation is so bad, I have to ask you veer ji, why do you blame me for hurting the Punjabi community by speaking the truth as it relates to spiritual concepts like rejection and tolerance?
Veer ji, all I know is rejection. What can I say? All I can do is sincerely share that this is not the path to God, and try to share a broader viewpoint knowing full well it would cause much discomfort because of deep wounds between Sikh and Hindu communities. But the problems in the present-day Sikh commuities are so painful, we can't continue like this. We can't keep ignoring. We can't keep talking about Sikh exclusive identity and creating walls which keep everyone else out. There was a very deep reason why I started posting about similarities between Sikhism and Hinduism. I happen to think it is the very same spiritual philosophy. But even if you don't, look at the brotherhood. Don't you see how desperately needs to heal the sense of brotherhood and love and welcome? The sense that, this other person is just like me. The sense that there are ancient truths that should unite us, when all we do is divide, divide, divide, and exclude, exclude, exclude.
This isn't any kind of boat of mukti. Sikhs have no right to invalidate other religions, other cultures, and other viewpoints. We desperately need a broader understanding and acceptance of people, a more mature spiritual interpretation. I really do think we have to start being honest about the problems and intolerance, or it will never go away. You have to see the humor in someone from a radical Khalistani community and trying to reconcile Vedas and Bhagavad-Gita. But I seriously and sincerely feel the Sikh community in general is missing the boat on mukti. If anything needs healing now it is the Sikh-Hindu divide. And also the Sikh-non-Punjabi convert divide. No one can make you what you are not. No one can destroy you, you can only destroy yourselves. The greatest enemy of Sikhs today is not all these other people, but these attitudes of intolerance and rejection. Look at what some of these people have been saying, Khushwant Singh, Yogi Bhajan, Nirmala Devi, and the sanatan traditions within Udasis, Nirmalas, Nihangs, Radhaswamis, Naamdharis, and even in part within AKJ and DDT, and ask yourself, could it be there was a different interpretation than what Singh Sabhia reform narrowly accepts?
And if we take a broader, more tolerant viewpoint, how can we be troubled by anyone who believes wrongly or differently? We should have peace that Guru will guide, in time, according to that person's best understanding, and just bless him. We should equally and indiscriminately bless the whole suffering world, and not just favor those closest to us. Sikhism, as a label is very narrow and destructive. And that institutionalized political power structure is not the spirituality Gurbani teaches.
~Forgive me, but that is how I think.
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The Guru loves one who meditates upon Naam day and night. The Guru loves one who takes His teachings to heart and lives up to them.
Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my True Companion; Khalsa is my Perfect Master;
In these words there's not the smallest falsehood; I take my Par Brahm Guru Nanak as witness.
Khalsa is my True Form; In the Khalsa do I reside; Khalsa is my True Companion; Khalsa is my Perfect Master;
In these words there's not the smallest falsehood; I take my Par Brahm Guru Nanak as witness.
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Guru Gobind Singh Ji says, "Know a Khalsa only when the full Light shines in his body."
Let each of our days be a Divali day; light the inner lamp. If you have any bad thoughts for anyone, stop them, and if anyone has wittingly or unwittingly harmed you, forgive and forget. There is no other cure. If you cannot forgive the misdemeanors of others, your progress will stop, for forgiveness and justice are different. Forget justice, and develop the virtue of forgiveness. Keep your heart clear; do not think badly of anyone, even if they have deliberately harmed you. And do not dance to the world's tune. Protect yourself from lies and hypocrisy. Everyone has God within them, so have love for all men. Do selfless service, and regular meditation. As is also usual on Divali day, the houses and shops are cleaned and decorated. Man should also clean himself inside, decorate himself within with the inner Light, and sit in the Lord's sweet remembrance. Then only can Divali be truly beautiful.
Excerpts from RuhaniSatsang.
Let each of our days be a Divali day; light the inner lamp. If you have any bad thoughts for anyone, stop them, and if anyone has wittingly or unwittingly harmed you, forgive and forget. There is no other cure. If you cannot forgive the misdemeanors of others, your progress will stop, for forgiveness and justice are different. Forget justice, and develop the virtue of forgiveness. Keep your heart clear; do not think badly of anyone, even if they have deliberately harmed you. And do not dance to the world's tune. Protect yourself from lies and hypocrisy. Everyone has God within them, so have love for all men. Do selfless service, and regular meditation. As is also usual on Divali day, the houses and shops are cleaned and decorated. Man should also clean himself inside, decorate himself within with the inner Light, and sit in the Lord's sweet remembrance. Then only can Divali be truly beautiful.
Excerpts from RuhaniSatsang.
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And how does kitty deal with ants? With reverence for life.....according to her true nature. Heh Heh!
Now all joking aside -
There has been some unkindness expressed toward Harjas ji in this thread. There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with a debate in which any or all claims made by any discussant are argued. In a forum this may even be a good thing. But something else has happened over the more recent posts -- some language has been used that lowers the conversation from the level of a debate.
For example, "sludge of ego" presumes that one party to the conversation knows about the spiritual and moral condition of another party and then on that presumption judges what the other has said in the context of ego, sludge, deficiency. If that presumption is not intended, it still looks that way. There are other examples.
When we look at the forum rules, we see that they are there to preserve the freedom of forum members to express almost any viewpoint without being judged. Claims and arguments should be judged, not the individuals who state them. To do otherwise is unfair to a person expressing an opinion. It also discourages many silent members from being more active for they hesitate from the concern that they too will be treated in a negative way.
So I am going to follow this thread more closely than I have. And hope that we move in a more positive direction. No one should have to feel defensive about his/her point of view as long as forum rules are not ignored.
This is my reaction so far.
I am not taking a position on the content or philosophy underlying any of the claims and counter-claims made here.
There has been some unkindness expressed toward Harjas ji in this thread. There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with a debate in which any or all claims made by any discussant are argued. In a forum this may even be a good thing. But something else has happened over the more recent posts -- some language has been used that lowers the conversation from the level of a debate.
For example, "sludge of ego" presumes that one party to the conversation knows about the spiritual and moral condition of another party and then on that presumption judges what the other has said in the context of ego, sludge, deficiency. If that presumption is not intended, it still looks that way. There are other examples.
When we look at the forum rules, we see that they are there to preserve the freedom of forum members to express almost any viewpoint without being judged. Claims and arguments should be judged, not the individuals who state them. To do otherwise is unfair to a person expressing an opinion. It also discourages many silent members from being more active for they hesitate from the concern that they too will be treated in a negative way.
So I am going to follow this thread more closely than I have. And hope that we move in a more positive direction. No one should have to feel defensive about his/her point of view as long as forum rules are not ignored.
This is my reaction so far.
I am not taking a position on the content or philosophy underlying any of the claims and counter-claims made here.
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I am grateful to both PK70 and Sinister Ji for kindly giving nice apologies for my upset feeling about their posts. Although Sinister ji went back and put a crazy cat in there who had too much catnip I think.
I would like to also take this time to apologize to the forum sangat for any hurt feelings or misunderstandings I may have caused in opinions about sensitive topics which already have hurt feelings before anyone says anything because they are hard to look at. I really have no intention to hurt people's feelings any more than they do. Sometimes issues we discuss are sensitive. But I think we're all better for the honesty, all the way around. And I agree with PK70 respect for the person should always be shown. I will endeavor to do that as well. I don't have any illusion to think my opinions are necessarily the right ones either. But I enjoy the opportunity to discuss and evaluate them.
I would like to also take this time to apologize to the forum sangat for any hurt feelings or misunderstandings I may have caused in opinions about sensitive topics which already have hurt feelings before anyone says anything because they are hard to look at. I really have no intention to hurt people's feelings any more than they do. Sometimes issues we discuss are sensitive. But I think we're all better for the honesty, all the way around. And I agree with PK70 respect for the person should always be shown. I will endeavor to do that as well. I don't have any illusion to think my opinions are necessarily the right ones either. But I enjoy the opportunity to discuss and evaluate them.
did you just invite me to india? :happy:
His royal majesty will accept, provided:
He is brought over on a private sail ship (there is no grace in traveling in a plane) and all land travel be done on a chariot pulled by two elephants.
Accommodations are nothing less than a 5 star hotels presidential suite.
Private Indoor Swimming pool will be required for afternoon dips
A variety of delectable 5 course meals be prepared everyday by chef Gordon Ramsey. (beef is essential in my diet)
A customary bottle service be available every day which includes Chteau La Mondotte Saint-Emilion (1996).
I must be assured that all my waiters will wear large unmanageable sombrero hats
You must provide a Jester for me to mock and throw my food at while he performs on a unicycle.
My 50 or so bodyguards all be dwarfs, outfitted with golden armour and armed with toy guns that make little laser shooting sounds when you pull the trigger.
I am to be addressed as “O significant one” (by all) and not by my name.
If you can meet these terms I shall accept your offer!
Harjas Ji & Aad ji;
DO NOT MOCK THAT CAT! it is the goddess of joy and the ambassador of peace.:}{}{}:
mock this one:
YouTube - Morbidly Obese Cat
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This cat reminds me of Namjap ji's story about the camel who pushed into his owners tent, and squished him right out of it.
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That exactly was my intent. I didn't want to see you wasting all that effort. So, I am glad that you listened to me. I know even if I offend people, they will at least listen to what I have to say and people, often, change listening to criticism even when they are offended and don't admit that they have changed because of their own ego. That's the reason why I keep pushing people even though I have to hear a lot of stuff from them...
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Now all joking aside -
There has been some unkindness expressed toward Harjas ji in this thread. There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with a debate in which any or all claims made by any discussant are argued. In a forum this may even be a good thing. But something else has happened over the more recent posts -- some language has been used that lowers the conversation from the level of a debate.
For example, "sludge of ego" presumes that one party to the conversation knows about the spiritual and moral condition of another party and then on that presumption judges what the other has said in the context of ego, sludge, deficiency. If that presumption is not intended, it still looks that way. There are other examples.
When we look at the forum rules, we see that they are there to preserve the freedom of forum members to express almost any viewpoint without being judged. Claims and arguments should be judged, not the individuals who state them. To do otherwise is unfair to a person expressing an opinion. It also discourages many silent members from being more active for they hesitate from the concern that they too will be treated in a negative way.
So I am going to follow this thread more closely than I have. And hope that we move in a more positive direction. No one should have to feel defensive about his/her point of view as long as forum rules are not ignored.
This is my reaction so far.
WoW! How long ago did I write that. And what a wet blanket I am. A long post to say what I am going to say again. Don't presume that because of another's failings we have obtained a God given right to promote our special form of truth. Them who does that usually don't have it! Thanks
another option should be there is no such thing as Khalsa and/or nobody could ever be khalsa...
Khalsa referring to the pure one....
Khalsa referring to the pure one....
PCJ,
Guru Fateh.
Khalsa means one who is pure hearted. Nothing more. And in order to be pure hearted one needs a continues action of breeding goodness within. That is why Guru Nanak used the word "Vin gun kitei Bhagat nah HOYEI",not BANEI or to have become because words like Bhagat, Brahmagyani etc etc that are used in Gurbani are not used as TITLES but traits of continuous actions. It is like the spring of water. The moment the water stops coming, it is just a hole in the ground. Our Gurus used the right language and showed us the subtle difference through this beautiful poetry.
PCJ, Wouldn't you like to be a pure hearted person? If not, then why not?
Tejwant Singh
Khalsa was dervied from Khalis, as in Khalis Desi Gheo for example. To me, only Lord is pure. Nothing less than that is acceptable as a Khalis. I don't believe anybody has had the purity of Lord Him and I don't believe anybody could be as pure as The Lord. Therefore, nobody really deserves to be called Khalis or any derivative of it.
PCJ ji,
Guru Fateh.
It is a question of interpretation. A " Pure" person makes no sense, neither linguistically, nor physically. Yes, Khalsa is derived from Khalis which means having a Khalis heart otherwise the rest is senseless. You should try to understand what things mean not concoct things from your own mind and if someone else has done that, one can see that you are quick to point out their shortcomings which is a good thing but correction first starts from the self.
So, I have no idea what you disagree with.
Secondly, I have asked you a number of times to tell me who your Lord is that you often talk about. I fail to understand your fear in sharing that with us. Only by sharing, you can seek for the truth as you so desire.
Truth shall set you free which makes one brave.
Tejwant Singh
PS: I am still waiting for your response in the " Sehajdhari thread".
Still only LORD can be pure bascially because He alone is capable of the Law He created. People simply go by their own perception but nobody knows The Truth - The Law He created.
Lord once again is most appropriate as The Creator is the highest power there could ever be. After He is The Creator of everything....
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